 Hello, this is Sapna Bhatia reporting for TFIR from this beautiful town of Sonoma, California. We are here at the open source leadership summit and we have met a lot of technologists and business leaders. So let's go and meet our next guest. So we are here at the open source leadership summit. Sonoma. Sonoma. With beautiful weather. What more could we ask for? Open source, beautiful weather, Sonoma, doesn't get better than the Swapna. Right. So what are you doing here? Taking a vacation. Almost everybody is. I'm coming to open source leadership summit, which means, you know, I'm going to hang out at the spa, I'm going to wander around, drink some wine. In the morning? That's what they said when I checked in, would you like a grass or champagne? I'm like, it's a little, it's 10, 30, I'm good right now. I'll chip back in a couple of hours. That's nice. But anyway, beyond wine and drinking and drinking and anything to do with work or club, anything. I'm always a club founder. I live and breathe club founders. That's why I call you the queen of the club, right? I think that's true. I don't know if anybody else should be the queen of the cloud. You're the one, right? I'm it. Right. So what is Cloud Foundry doing at this leadership summit? Because I was sitting through the gym's keynote and he was like, you know, we are going to details. It's not about me. Just, you know, everybody collaborate and shares everything. So, I mean, from Cloud Foundry's perspective and open source leadership summit. Well, I think this really brings together a lot of my favorite things in one spot. The power of open source, the open source leadership summit really brings together the leaders in open source, which are really fundamentally changing the world. I mean, I know you've been a long time follower of open source, but open source is in its moment right now. Right. We are collectively, we are driving and changing industries and particularly with cloud. If you look at the Linux foundation as a whole, it's got basically every fundamental aspect of cloud that's part of the open source project. You have Cloud Foundry, foundation, you've got cloud native computing foundation, you've got the open computing initiative. And then let's really extend that to even the open networking solutions that are really the underpinnings of how this is all going to work. So we actually are now looking for the first time at the full stack in open source around cloud and the enablement of organizations to take advantage of cloud. And I think that actually puts us at a really interesting moment in time. Right. I recall early days after I finished my journalism, I joined Linux for your magazine group. Back in 2004, the whole education, the messaging was more about telling people that want to use the open source, why you should use open source. Fast forward to 2018, everybody's using open source these days. But the new challenge is that those people actually don't know how it works. You also come across a lot of companies who are new to it. So what kind of challenge do you see out there? Well, I see it as a challenge, but also an opportunity for open source. We have, 40% of our members are end users. The highest that any open source project, I believe, has. And for many of our end user members, this is the first time they've been part of an open source project. Companies like Home Depot and American Airlines, those aren't companies you traditionally think of that are really openly involved in open source and yet here they are. They're here. They're participating. They are becoming contributors. This is where I see the future of open source going. So beyond the technology companies, beyond the technology providers, we're really also pulling in collaboratively the end users that want to have a say in where and shape where the future of that technology goes, that they're banking the future of their companies on. Right. Right. They are no more consumer. They can, you know, they are active contributor and, you know, they participate and actively, you know. Exactly. And that's what's so exciting about open source and the digital transformation initiatives that are going on right now is these companies are really rethinking how technology is part of their company. But more importantly, they're taking advantage of that. They're saying Cloud Foundry is helping me transform my company, but open source is allowing me to also shape the future of my company. Right. And it puts that control back in their hands. And that's been really part and parcel of Cloud Foundry. Cloud Foundry is the platform to enable their transformation, but the open source piece allows them to really embrace that and be in control and shape the future of their technology and their company at the same time. Right. With open source, one more thing is happening is there are so many players coming in, so many new ideas, and they're trying to solve new problems. So as a journalist, I kind of struggle to keep up with so much is happening. So first of all, from Cloud Foundry's perspective, what news is going on there? So much is going on. Firstly, Kubo, which became Cloud Foundry's container runtime the end of last year. Though I should interpret that. That Kubo name was cute. It is super cute. But in those of you that have children will realize maybe it might have some trademark, potential trademark infringement issues with Disney. But Kubo is cute. Kubernetes on Bosch. We renamed it Cloud Foundry Container Runtime because there was a lot of confusion around what does Kubernetes mean? How do you run that alongside what we thought of as Cloud Foundry, which at the time was Elastic Runtime. So what we did was we renamed things. So we have application runtime, which is really focusing on the Elastic Runtime capabilities and offering that click to push app opportunity alongside container runtime, which given you the chance to run those containerized workloads in tandem with your more cloud native applications. And I think that really gives you a much more inclusive experience with Cloud Foundry. And I think in 2018, we'll see a lot more of that. One of our key guiding principles for 2018 is interoperability and you're going to hear me talk a lot about that this year. Building bridges to other projects, technologies, communities, other open source projects and really taking advantage of these amazing new technologies that are coming. Kubernetes was one of them. But look at the amazing traction that's going on with Envoy and Istio or even the great work with CSI, the container storage interface. Last year, we integrated CNI, the container networking interface into Cloud Foundry. We also integrated OCI, the RunC that came from the open container initiative. So you're going to see a lot more of that from us this year because Cloud Foundry is an amazingly mature and evolving technology, but more importantly, it needs to continue to evolve. And there's so many interesting projects and technologies that are going on and out there. And within open source, what's the value of that? You can take advantage of all of these things and really collaborate more deeply with all of these other projects. What you're talking about, all these integration, so is it like driven by the vendors or is there is demand from the market that you see there is a problem, you can solve it in a better way? All of the above, right? Because at the end of the day, a technology is only as good as its ability to keep up and evolve and grow. The second you stop moving, it's like a shock. The second you stop swimming, you start dying. And I think we need to really think about that with Cloud Foundry is that it needs to continue to evolve just like our ecosystem needs to continue to evolve and our users need to continue to grow. We all need to continue to grow. And the amazing thing about open source is we can do that all together. CNC have just given this definition for serverless. I thought you were going to say blockchain for a second. You can invade into any territory that's totally fine. You're the queen of the cloud. I feel like we're like blockchain. I mean, we can't have any conversation that doesn't involve cloud, that doesn't involve blockchain, serverless and AI. Yeah, so serverless is kind of becoming because they just CNC have just kind of gave a definition through the white paper. Yeah, saw that. What role is Cloud Foundry playing there in this space? I think we're getting there. I think we're able to support serverless now. We've seen IBM really lead the way with OpenWisk. And you're starting to see some of the work that Google is doing with functions. And I think serverless is really growing beyond just the early concepts with Lambda. When we look at Cloud Foundry, you're making it easier for developers to not worry about all the other things. If serverless or functionless service, they're just like, OK, you don't have to worry about anything that you just run that function and you're done. So how do you see it in evolution? Well, I think serverless, yeah, you run your function, you're done. Your work is done. There's other stuff underneath there. And the same with Cloud Foundry, you're CF push your app and your work is done. But there's stuff going on underneath there. There's still a platform, there's still infrastructure, which is why I've really always hated the moniker serverless, because I'm like, well, there's still servers there. There's somebody's maintaining what's underneath that. I do think there is a lot of potential with serverless. Think about the functions as a service and the ability to write these small microservice. I mean, it's just an extension of the microservice as architecture and the way you think about that. But it's still early days. Yeah, we're talking about it. But keep in mind that most enterprise organizations are still trying to figure out what cloud native means for them. And I think organizations are still getting familiar with containers, containerized workloads, cloud native application architectures. And I think there will be an opportunity. But I think we all agree that serverless or functions as a service or those small apps aren't the solution to everything. They're a finite use case. And so I think when we think about cloud native taking a step back, serverless is part of that continuum. But so are a lot of other applications. And so we need to look at the whole continuum of opportunity. That's why I think cloud native is so important as we talk about what does that mean? What does cloud native mean? What does cloud mean and how do we take advantage of that? You mentioned some technologies. The funny thing is that these technologies are like less than four or five years old. What do you mean? They're less than like two years old. I'm talking Docker or Kubernetes and all those which are like major. Docker is 2013. Yeah, so it's they're very new type of people are still trying to kind of understand and it's breaking the whole old legacy model 20 years and you're still running the same application. So what really matters more to look at it from the cloud native perspective, that this is what we should be looking at. Then everything else falls in place. So they should look at, oh, functions are renewed, but let's see what it is. What is cloud native in a way that how does everything else fall into the picture? I think cloud native for me represents the ability to take advantage of something we've been talking about since 2007. We've been talking about the magic of cloud in 2007. Remember all the things cloud was going to do for us? It was going to take care of business continuity. It's going to take care of disaster recovery. You're going to auto scale. It was elastic. You could like move things around. Turns out you also have to architect your applications to do that too. Which we just figured out what that means. Not to say that the 12 factor app manifesto hasn't been out there since I think 2007, 2008 when Heroku wrote it. But I think people are just really starting to grok what that means and how to take advantage of that. Because it isn't just about writing small stateless applications. What it really represents when we talk about cloud native is the larger process, the larger continuum, continuous delivery, right? Writing small applications that you can iterate on, building organizationally those cross-functional teams with common business outcomes and really aligning your structure around that. The technology piece frankly is the easiest part in all of this. But seeing organizations build those cross-functional agile teams, building continuous delivery pipelines, iterating quickly on apps, tying their product and their outcome closely to business feedback and those product teams, and building those streams in place. That's the big work and really articulating that the power of technology enables those practices. It doesn't solve for everything. Cloud Foundry does an amazing job of that. But Cloud Foundry by itself will not do that. Cloud Foundry will not allow you to take application development lifecycle from nine months down to every day magically by itself. It is basically an enabler and a reminder of those good practices, but you still have to put the work in. So it's more like technology versus culture. Is there anything that Cloud Foundry, because Cloud Foundry, if you look at Pivotal, VMware, Dell, it's like a big, it's hard to say. SAP, IBM, Su-Stay, Cisco. So how do you do anything to actually help companies in changing the culture or actually anything that you do at that level? I mean, you come to these events and talk to a lot of people. But beyond that, how do you play a role in changing the culture, not just offering them technology? I think a lot of companies do a great job of doing that. And you named off a lot of companies that are really focusing on that, Pivotal, Dell, the Dell tech companies, Pivotal, VMware, Dell EMC. But IBM, Cisco, SAP, Su-Stay, all of these companies are really investing and providing that. I think for me, I'm just a pragmatist. I mean, yeah, I can sit here and talk all day about the wonders and magic of open source in Cloud Foundry. And I think Cloud Foundry technically is an amazing platform. But I'm also a pragmatist in understanding that why people adopted and use it and people adopted and use it because they're doing that. And they're trying to make that change. And if we're collectively thinking about any of our technologies, particularly things that enable cloud native adoption, we need to understand that there is a culture shift that is part of that for end users. And for me, I've always been an end user advocate. I've been customer facing my entire career. And so for me, I'm always like, OK, this is great tech. Who's using it? Why are they using it? And what is the point of it? And how do we keep that front and center of our conversation? Does Cloud Foundry also run any kind of certification program or training programs also? Yes, great question, Swapnel. We have a platform certification, which the whole point of having a platform certification is just really conformance around what Cloud Foundry means and that open source. And then we also offer training and certification. And we launched that last June. And what's so great about the training and certification program is beyond that it teaches you how to run Cloud, how to run and take advantage of all the amazing capabilities within Cloud Foundry. It also teaches you how to write cloud native applications, cloud native best practices, how to run and scale applications in an enterprise at this scale. And I think fundamentally, even if you choose not to use Cloud Foundry forever, which I don't know why you wouldn't, but in the event you don't, you still walk away with those best practices. And I think at the end of the day, when we talk about cloud native, it's understanding how a cloud works, understanding how high automation works and pipelines work, and then taking advantage of that with the way you're writing your applications. Anything else you would like to add? I am super bullish on where things are going. But I also am really optimistic about the role that end users are going to play in this conversation going forward. OK. As we are kind of going through this, everything is becoming software-defined. Everything is data-driven, moving to cloud, everything. So what role is open source going to play in this? And one more thing that this revolution not just about technology is changing the way we interact with each other, our lives, our society. Everything is being transformed. We never imagined this kind of ever. But the funny thing is that open source is at the bedrock, the foundation of this whole. From your perspective, what role is open source going to play in this revolution? I think it's going to play a bigger role than we all give credit for. Because, yes, the way we interact with technology is different, but our expectations are different. It wasn't that long ago that you bought software, you bought hardware, and you wrote it out. You were with that. You were married to that for the next 20 years. And you made technology changes very slowly, the famous eight-year hardware cycle. Every eight years, time to refresh. And now, and I really think this changed when the iPhone came out. And not just the iPhone, but the app store. And the transparency and the accessibility to data really changed our perspectives. Because now, if you don't have immediate access to data, what do you think? You're frustrated. If you go to your bank's mobile app, and it says, oh, we have a site outage tonight. We're taking it down. You're like, what? Why would you do that? And whereas 10 years ago, that was totally fine. Website was down on a Saturday night for maintenance. Nobody cares. And now, our expectation of always having access to that data and that information is changing the way we think about technology. Because you expect that visibility. And you expect that constant change. You expect things to keep up. You expect things to keep pace. And so with open source, you can do that. With open source, you can say, hey, you know what? I really wish that this technology did this. I wish it supported that. Great. Submit a pull request. You can now make that a reality. And I think that is really, I think it is no coincidence that open source, the rise of open source, the prevalence of open source, alongside the digital transformation movement, alongside the fourth industrial revolution, where we're actually becoming much more accustomed to the day-to-day integration with technology. I don't think it's a coincidence all three of those things are happening at the same time. And from the culture perspective, because now, in the early days, companies were competing. They had their own kind of guarded secrets. Now, if you come to this, even Microsoft, Red Hat, and all the pivotal, no matter who you name, everybody's in the same box. Facebooks and Google, they sit together with Twitter. So it's also changing the way technology is being developed where people are interacting with each other. So that will also bring a shift in the whole, I mean, the way we develop technology in new things. Well, yeah, because it's understanding what is table stakes, right? There is no longer the point of recreating the same technology over and over again, because that's not differentiating. There's a certain amount of baseline table stakes in tech that you have to have. And it makes sense to collaborate on that and share that cost of that, and share the R&D, and share the innovation around that, and then building differentiation on top of that. That's a much better use of time and money than saying, well, so-and-so's got this, so let me create the same thing over here. And this tech company B over here has got this, so let me recreate that over here. And you're like, that's just wasting time and money. And particularly when you start talking about large, powerful platforms like Cloud Foundry. Cloud Foundry is very big, it's very complex. It took many years to get it to the point where it is today. And that isn't something that you're gonna easily reproduce with a team of three in a six-month span. And I think taking advantage of these large innovative movements like Cloud Foundry, like Kubernetes, these are fundamental things that it doesn't make sense for you to rebuild that. But instead build things on top of that that really change your business. Awesome. I think we talked about a lot of things and we can continue talking about- Anything else? Come on, we haven't even talked about AI or machine learning or blockchain or the magic of- Yeah, we can talk about everything. Yeah. Machine learning is really going to be very, very interesting because- It will be. It is. So what's going on from the Cloud Foundry's perspective? Because machine learning, as a science fiction writer, I used to think machine learning means artificial intelligence, deep learning, but it's helping the stack itself becoming more smarter. Yeah, I think Cloud Foundry provides fundamentals for that. I think we're all excited about the potential for AI and ML. I think I personally am excited to see basic integrations from an API standpoint of data that already exists. Like data my phone has. There's small tweaks that if you integrated the data my phone already has on me, that it could do. Like, hey, I know you're supposed to be here at this time. Let me go ahead and call an Uber for you. Yes. Hey, I know there's somebody's birthdays coming up tomorrow. Let me remind you and order a gift for you or something like that. There's little small tweaks, I think, that we can really integrate into the existing data points we have, but the fundamentals are not there yet. We're getting close to that. But we talk a lot about AI and ML, but we've missed the point where these companies also have to understand Cloud Native before they get that. You have to walk before you can run. And there's a lot of fundamentals you need to bring in. If you're developing applications that take advantage of machine learning or AI algorithms, you also need to have small, stateless apps that you can iterate on that scale microservices. You need to have CD pipelines. You need to have all of those fundamentals in place. And it's the same with serverless. You don't just go straight into adopting these technologies at scale. You need to really walk before you get there. Right, right. Yeah, and it's medical. You can have people's medical record. Then genome mapping is there. So you put it together. So diabetes, too, you can find a solution to that. So machine learning can help and all those things. I think machine learning is going to fundamentally change life in our generation, and particularly in our children's generation, I think it will absolutely will have a prevailing role. But I also think we need to, one, figure out how we adopt those technologies. And then, frankly, just from a pure personal standpoint, I do worry a little bit about cognitive bias. Yes. And who's really developing these algorithms and making sure that we don't put too much trust in algorithms just yet? Yeah, they're our concerns. And they're valid, too. Yeah, I think we have a lot of systemic issues in our industry that we want to make sure that that doesn't perpetuate into lifelong algorithms. Yeah, we'll see what happens. Then we'll come up with something else to find that. That will be an ongoing process, you know, forever. Yes. Anything else? I think we have covered a lot of things today. And once again, you know, nice talking to you. Always a pleasure.