 you're nervous. I don't know. You love this book? These books so much. And as you know, I read them when I was not in a great state of mind. So I feel like I did not retain as much of them as I normally would. Well, all the remembering you can rely on me for. So as unlike our Hobchats, well, I mean, hello, everyone. Oh, yeah. Hi, guys. We have gone live. I am Leanna, also known as Abercrombie's number one fan. The mistress of this library. And I'm joined today by someone who you should already know. But in case you do not, if you'd like to introduce yourself. My name is Mara. I'm from the channel Books Like Woe. And I did enjoy these books. So that means Leanna and I can remain friends. However, I've had a lot going on in my life over the summer. So I am very nervous about this conversation, because I feel like I'm not going to remember as much as you're going to want me to remember. And then your viewers will hate me because they also love the first law. It's okay. I mean, to be perfectly honest, I've read them so many times. And usually when I'm rereading them, there will be at least one thing that I'm like, huh, I don't remember that. I don't think I ever noticed that before. So. Hey, mark of a good book, right? Yeah. So this is your sign to immediately go now and reread them now that I've gotten you to read them once. Now you have to keep reading them over and over. What about all these other books? True, true. Okay, we'll get you to the end of the first law in its entirety. And then we immediately go back to the beginning and the cycle never ends. Oh, okay, okay. I actually was just messaging someone today because they finally finished like the very, very end, the very last book. And there was a line because I was just like, like, not that I really needed to, but I was like cramming and finishing my reread of this trilogy like a minutes before this live. And there was a particular line that, like, I could tell it to you and it probably made by the time you got to this later books, it wouldn't mean anything to you. But it was, it's like, spoilery for like, it wouldn't mean anything to you. But basically, I was like, Hey, this line in like, the OG trilogy, like it hits so different when you read this line. And if you've read like to the very end, because you're like, it feels portentious, which like, even Abercrombie didn't really mean it too, because he didn't know what he was going to write. But it's like, Oh, how little you know that that's actually a predictor of the future. Well, I mean, like, you know, so for my Patreon book club, we did and then there were none. I tapped the hell out of it. I mean, I've read this book probably 20 times. And like, there's still things that hit me afresh when I read it. And this is just like a little 250 page mystery book. So yes, I am wearing a first law shirt. It's nice that because I bring up first law in every live chat that I'm in, it's nice that I'm not going to be made fun of her bringing up first law. And this one comes I'm supposed to. So now it's just what's so you can't take a shot every time we bring up first law, but you can if we bring up gay men. Okay, yeah, right? Isn't that the other one? Like you have a higher hit rate with Abercrombie in every other live, but like gay men is like, also shot worthy. Yeah, yeah, I don't think I think you will be drunk off your ass if you try to do take a shot every time Abercrombie comes up. So that I think we have to ban for this particular live, but gay men I think is still. And hey, but if you want to drink what I every time we technically say the words first law, you know, I recommend it be like a hard seltzer, but you're welcome to take a sip. I mean, yeah, make sure that you are not needing to drive anywhere. And maybe, you know, be ready or you otherwise you will end up like Nicomo Koska by the end of this, this track. Yeah. Yes, exactly. He's the mercenary that Glock to hires who is always drunk off his ass. Oh, yeah, that guy. Okay. He's basically I and I think other people also independently have like called him the Jack Sparrow of Ursula, because he's kind of this like drunk wild card that's like, Hey, danger. Great. Sign me up. And you're like, where's your loyalty? Whoever's paying me? Okay. Well, one that does beg the question, how much eyeliner he dawns for his not only up to, you know, the directors and the makeup artists, if and when they they adapt to this thing is I feel like I remember seeing an announcement is there actually a TV show that's going to happen? Do we think they're they are in talks talks enough to have announced it to do a film of Besser cold, which is the standalone that comes directly after the trilogy. And actually Koska is in that. So like, we may see an eyeliner blocked sooner rather than later. If they actually get the movie up off the ground, Rebecca Ferguson is supposed to be playing the it's a female protagonist in the book. So she's supposed to be playing. I don't know who that is, but I believe you, Rebecca Ferguson. Well, did you see the Dune movie? No. Did you see the new Mission Impossible are actually any of the newest Mission Impossible movies? I don't see movies with Tom Cruise on it because he's the head of a cult. There is that. But there's no one can run like Tom Cruise. He's legitimately the best film runner. If you need me to know anything about a movie or TV show, it's not a good bet. Yeah, I don't really watch. It's like because like I knew her from like, you know, more niche kind of like period drama type stuff before. And now she's like hit the mainstream. So now I'm like, oh, people actually like I can be like, oh, Mission Impossible Dune, like these are like big movies that I can be like, oh, we know her. Okay, she's a Swedish actress. Oh, I recognize her face. Oh, yeah, she's in The Greatest Showman. I dislike that movie. So I never. That movie is hot water trash. It's so bad. It is horrible. She's Jenny Linden in it. Oh, okay. Yeah, that is where probably I recognize her face. It's just one of the worst movies I've ever seen. And when I walked out of it, I felt like I was going nuts because everybody else I was with was like, oh, that was nice. And I was like, no, it wasn't. It's terrible. The only part of it that I legitimately like, I can't say that it was like, I'm sorry about the noise, if you can hear it. We can barely hear it. Okay. I can't say that it was like good, but like, I derived some enjoyment out of watching the only scene and the only song that moved the plot forward because all the other songs were just like, just like ballads, like the power ballads that had nothing to do with the plot. But the part where like, Barnum is like negotiating the contract with Zac Efron's character and they're like in a bar together and they're like doing a deal. And it's actually moving the plot forward. And it's two actors that do musical theater. So the two of them get to do like musical theater choreography together. I'm like, this part is like a musical. It's still not the best. Yeah. And a good musical, that'd be the weak point, but it was the best part. I mean, I cosine pretty much everything Jenny Nicholson said about it. And then the actual songs I think are fine. Like, I totally get why people like Never Enough and some of the other songs, but they, but exactly what you're saying, they just don't feel like a musical. And also, why are you making it about PT Barnum, who is like, not a nice human being. So like, why are we making a song, a movie that's like, basically, a musical about PT Barnum that it should be in the vein of Sweeney Todd, where like you can be the protagonist, but not the hero. Yeah. Yeah. So I just have a lot of problems with that entire movie. And I just, I still don't understand why it's so popular. Anyway, that's not what this livestream is about. There's a tiny fruit fly and it's like, at the camera. And I feel like you guys are going to see it. It's going to just like crawl up onto the. Yeah, we're at that time of year where every time I open the door, I have to do like a, because the bugs are trying to get in. I haven't seen any bugs until right the second naturally. Anyway, okay. So first law. Anyway, first law. Yeah. I don't think should be a musical, but it could be. That's the route we wanted to go. I would be open to it. It would definitely be in the Sweeney Todd vein of things. Yeah. I feel like Sondheim's lyrics, then I mean, he's unfortunately, you know, passed away, but Sondheim and Abercrombie could get along. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So like, should I just say what I thought about it? Like, what are we? Yeah, I don't you've talked about this so much. It's like, I don't know. So this was your second time reading the blade itself, but it was your first time reading the whole trilogy. So like, I don't if you want to maybe say like, kind of from your recollection of how the first one had been, like you would have had some like inkling of what you're going to be getting into now that you're going to fully read the whole trilogy. So was it like, yeah, this is pretty much like what I was remembering and what I expected or if it was like different or. Yeah. I think the first time I read the blade itself, I enjoyed it, but I didn't feel a lot of like investment to keep going. Like it was like, I knew I would eventually, but I wasn't like dying to this time. I think because I think honestly, having just finished our hobbathon over multiple years, definitely like has built up a lot of my like chunky fantasy reading stamina. So it felt easier to get through than the first time. Because before like, I've always enjoyed compared to hob, I also just think these books are easier to get through. Yeah, they're definitely easier to read. I think that hob is even though hob is not like difficult prose, but there's not as much like a lot of what hob reading for me is like pausing and like meditating on things. And I don't that's not the same. It's not the same like vibe of what. And they are also just shorter. Last argument is like starting to get into hob length, but like there he doesn't really write thousand page toms. Yeah, yeah, that that is fair too. Like they're also just like by the not even like difficulty of prose, you're totally right. Like just in terms of sheer number of pages, it's not as intense as a hob experience. So yeah, I think like I knew what to expect, but I think I just liked it a lot better this time around. I think because I don't know, I think maybe I just like appreciated. Like I've, okay, maybe the way to say this, I've tried a lot more popular fantasy series since I first read it. And I think I appreciate the quality of this more. Having sampled more broadly. Because like before booktube, I've always been a fantasy reader, like I always enjoyed reading fantasy. But really, Tolkien was my chunky high fantasy, like that was the one I could do. Every other one I tried, I never really got into it's only been like more recently, I've been able to get into chunkier fantasy. So I think I just appreciated its quality more this time around, like how character driven it is, because I think it's very hard to find quality high fantasy series that are character driven and don't have things about them that make me hate them. Yep. It turns out it's a high bar. Yeah. But as such a Tolkien stan, I mean, the first law isn't like it's not the entire project of the first law, but in no small part, the project of it is, is to comment on the default as presented by Tolkien and to like be an inversion of in some ways, specifically, also broadly. But like, since Tolkien is so much become the template for fantasy, if you're commenting upon the default, then you are commenting upon Tolkien. And he like frequently references Tolkien as the point of like, well, here's what Tolkien does in a fantasy. And here's like, how this is the opposite of that. Yeah. Well, and actually, that makes me realize when you're here, we need to watch an episode of dimension 20 escape from the blood keep, because I think it's something you would be very into. I don't know what any of that is. Well, you'll experience it when you get here. I've never even heard of it. I don't know. Because it's basically it's a live action D&D show. Okay. But that they have like a smaller season they did. That's basically a parody of Tolkien. And it's all characters that are on the like bad side and like trying to understand like, how did they beat the bad guys? And it's like, like a bad version of our one and like the witch king. And, you know, what's her fit like, she lob, lady. Anyway, I think you would enjoy the humor in it. Especially now having read this, I'm like, that is very much the same kind of humor is you know, Abercrombie in a lot of ways. There's a particular way in which this is obviously a commentary on the default, but more specifically Tolkien, but it is quite spoilery. So I don't know if I ready, I mean, I fully intend to talk spoilers during this conversation. But are we, are we there? Yeah, it's been nearly 15 minutes. Who is here that either doesn't expect spoilers or isn't already like having read all of them? Yeah. So this is your final warning, spoilers incoming for the first law trilogy. Obviously, Mara hasn't read past that. So I won't spoil anything past that. But Bayez is, I think people have, and I'm pretty sure Abercrombie himself has like expressed it this way that Bayez is more or less Gandalf, if Gandalf had used the ring. Oh, yeah. Now you're saying that this whole, I'm now thinking about the whole trilogy in a very different way. I guess I hadn't thought about it directly as commenting on Tolkien. But it is not doing that. It's not like supposed to be like a retelling in reverse. So like, it's not like beat for beat like, oh, this is Lord of the Rings flipped. But like, I mean, I mean, like we got a Ranger from the North, like, yeah, now that you're saying that we have a fellow ship. Yeah, I like this even better. I think now that you've brought that in, because I do think that makes it very interesting. And it makes me begrudge. It's what I would describe as basic bitch medieval fantasy setting a lot less because, well, again, like Abercrombie himself, like, because he's always a joy when you like an author to like continue reading them and to see that they are interested in improving their craft and then not just like wrestling on their laurels. So like he's quite critical writing in this trilogy gets, I think, markedly better by the end. But I mean, even for this trilogy, because he kind of well, thankfully, he writes his trilogies in one draft. So we don't have to have a Georgia or a Martin situation. Like we know there's going to be an ending with his series. A responsible team. We love it. But he's like quite critical of his original trilogy. Like in so to the point where I was like, hold on, like, I love this trilogy. Like, it's not that bad, bro. So like, in particular, like with like female characters and the lack thereof, like he was like the first to like bring that up and be like, you may have noticed there's like none in like the original trilogy and how like, and how he was he made fun of himself for having at the time thought that he was being so like, like out there and like feminist to like have a body like loud, you know, rude woman in arty. And it's like, wow, like, look what I'm doing. It's so no one's doing this. Sadly, it is refreshing for it to be grimdark. And there is, is there anything there, there's sexual assault alluded to, but I did not have to read any graphic rape. Never in none of the first law is there ever on page sexual assault assault. Like you're aware that it may or may not have been occurring in like the vicinity, but it's never like on page. That is not a small thing, Joe. This reader appreciates it. And even with arty, he's like, oh, like, you know, being like really denigrating himself. And I'm like, sir, like, maybe that's how bad the situation is. But like, sir, like, she's great. She's a fantastic character. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I feel like there's a ton of female characters, but all of them I think are well done, which again, to the point where I sometimes low bar, but an important bar, I forget that arty is not actually a POV character. That's how it came up, I think, because I asked if there was a reason she wasn't one, because she's so prominently featured. And like, you see so much of her that like you think that she would be, but she's not. And I kind of wish she was the POV character for that part of the story, honestly. Well, so when I asked him that, like, that's like how we started talking about this whole thing. And that's when he was like, well, like, no, like it just like didn't occur to me to make her a character, a POV character. Like I didn't like actively choose not to, it didn't occur to me to make her a POV character. And he was like, basically when you're commenting on the default, like, everything is just like, without thinking about it, without meaning to your whole world is just like a really male world, because you're like, what do you have, you know, you have like the swordsmen and the swordsmen, he's a dude. And he's going to talk to the blacksmith and the blacksmith is a dude. And the do the blacksmith is going to talk to the governor and the governor is a dude. And the governor is going to be talking to the king and the king is a dude. It's something like everything is just dudes without you actually meaning for that to happen. So like, he's like made an active effort to like, definitely like place female characters in his stories more intentionally, like ever since the original trilogy. Well, and I didn't love and we you and I talked about this and it sounds like it's something he also in retrospect doesn't love, but didn't love that Pharaoh was an enslaved person who was also like a person of color and one of our only, you know what I mean? Like, I don't love that. But she, I mean, it's not she is a good character. I like her as a character, but like in terms of the overall and I think that would be that would be so much worse if this was a Tolkien story where all our heroes were heroes. And she and Pharaoh is exactly the way that she is. But Pharaoh is like, just as good or bad or possibly slightly better than one of the better characters, I think. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, now that you're saying that though about the Tolkien, like, I think I like the series even more, like a lot more actually. Well, and then the like sort of disjointedness of like when you start out the series and you're like, where are we going with this? What is the point of this? What is the mission of this? Like when you like whereas you don't really have that. And again, like the Abercrombie himself is like, so like when you start Lord of the Rings, you have Gandalf who's like, well, my boy, here's what we're going to do. And then they do that. And then the story. And he's like, whereas he is a film buff, and he worked in as a film editor, and he really liked film noir. And he liked the idea of like, he sort of like film noir type of projects where they kind of start in different places, and you don't exactly know how this is connected until it all kind of like comes together. And he wanted to apply that or see if he could apply that kind of thing to fantasy, but then spread across a trilogy. And then like people were like, after the end of the first book, we're like, I don't know what the point of this is. And he's like, well, no, because like, it's one story in three parts. Yeah. And I like, I was thinking about I was thinking about it as a trilogy and realizing it's definitely one of those series where I feel like the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Because each of the individual books I gave four stars to because there was something in it that I was like, this isn't like, there's like one, it just doesn't have that like special sauce or whatever. That makes me feel like it's a four and a half or five. But when I think about the experience of the story as a whole, it definitely feels like one of my favorite stories I've read this year. So it's like the series I would give like a four and a half or five to but like, the individual books maybe not, which is several reads before I actually bumped them all up to five stars. Like, I think I originally did give the third one five stars because it was like so much of like, Oh, wow, these answers are so crazy. That was so satisfying. So like, I think I always gave that one five. But late itself first time I read it was like three stars and then before they were hanged was four stars. So now I just give them all five because I'm like, if I'm reading this seven times, I think that gets five stars. I mean, if you're on a dairy journey of Abercrombie, like dairy is the hub what you are to Abercrombie. I think you have to just say they're all fives at this point. But yeah, like the the story when it find like, for instance, the second book is probably my least favorite of the three, just because it's a lot of action. And that tends to that that's just a hard sell for me. Alona Andrews is really the only author whose fight scenes I fully read without kind of skimming through it. So I'm just like, Yeah, okay, fight, fight, fight, sort of. I generally thought I do feel like even with Abercrombie scenes, sometimes they get like to be too much for me. But I still find Abercrombie's fight scenes more interesting and compelling to read than every other author. No, I think they were well done. I just there was just a lot of them. Um, so that for that reason alone, that probably is my least but the ending, like the ending of before they are hanged is maybe my favorite moment in all three books, which is what I knew you could be a fan. Oh, yeah, okay, like you're here to just like, really subvert some hero's quest shit right now. I loved that ending. So that was probably my favorite moment. But I would say that my favorite book just because of like, the way everything ends up shaking out, which I think I told you before you got there. And then like after you got there was like confirming that before they were hanged, the end of it is like the litmus test for if Abercrombie and first life for you, because if you would get to that quest ending and you're like, fuck you, then Abercrombie's not for you. When you told me people don't like it, I'm like, but how that's so fun of him just being kind of like, yeah, okay, you thought that I was going to give you something that I'm just like fundamentally not giving you. Like I just think it's so like, I don't know, I like it when authors, it feels meta to me of them just being like, yeah, I know what you thought was going to happen here, but that's not like sometimes quests come to nothing life be like that sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, but I yeah, as a whole, I like the series more than the individual books, even though all of them are good. Yeah. And so yeah, originally, I said the third one, I gave five stars to like, always, it was a five star book to me, and it took a long time for the first and second to reach five stars. And now the second one is my favorite one to reread, because it is like so much, like the satisfaction of last argument is these answers that you've so desperately wanted and didn't know you were looking for. And that is really satisfying. But when you know the answers, then like you don't need the answers, like that's not like the thing that you want to read over and over again, because you're like, Oh, I know the answer. So like before they're hanged is like pure journey, where it's like the characters all like a lot of the growing that all of them do, arguably, they mainly end up being exactly who they were when they started. But like, the like changes in their relationships and characters, like all of that basically happens in before they were hanged. And so like, that's just like really satisfying to watch on like a recurring basis. On the reread. Yeah. No, I mean, I think the sim. Yeah, I don't know. Just like once you know what was happening in the earlier books, it does make you like, I think retrospectively like the more because of how well everything is set up. And the character journeys are like, it's weird to say they're satisfying because it's they're not but like they're satisfying to watch Abercrombie so master yeah, craft them. Yeah, it's like they're very disappointing in the sense of really like where people end up. Well, as Logan nine fingers, but say you have to be realistic. Can I say that I kind of I mean, maybe I'm just remembering this Glucka and already basically are the only ones I would describe as getting a happy ending and this of any of these characters, right? Like am I missing someone? I mean, if you think being king is a happy ending, then I guess just now it doesn't seem like it's a happy ending. It's better than other people. Some other people. Yeah, I guess it's like not the worst ending he could have had. But it's like, yeah, so it's like the journeys are not satisfying in that respect, but they're very interesting. And it's very like, you know, now that we're talking about things and you entered in that Lord of the Rings comparison, that's really turning in my head, making it even more. Well, Giselle is like the lost king that we're like, yeah, yeah, thrown except in the worst way possible. Well, but then also again, like Logan nine fingers is sort of like the Ranger of the north. Like it's sort of like two different aspects, maybe of the Logan also becomes king before he also becomes king. And then like that's a fucking disaster. So yeah, I don't know. But yeah, no, I'm glad we can remain friends at least because I did enjoy these books. She was, you know, would have been a problem. And I do think I'll slowly make my way through the rest of the books. I need to make some progress on all the series I have going right now. But like, I could see like next year, making that a project to start reading some of those stand-alones. Yeah. And that's what's nice about kind of the structure of it is that you have these kind of like snack size stand-alones that you don't have to read back to back to back. That continue to expand the ongoing world and story, but you don't have to like, be like, I got to read them before I forget what happened in the previous one because it's a building story. And then you have a trilogy then again to cap it off when you're ready to like, you know, shoot all of that. Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love a standalone. I wish we had more of those and genre fiction. But yeah, I think people want to know what you think about his abilities in the romance smart department. I mean, I don't, I would describe his realistic scenes as anti-neurotic. They are as grim, darkly realistic as everything else. Yeah. I kind of, I mean, there is some like realism there that I just kind of appreciate. Well, like I said, I appreciate them. He treats them the way he treats fight scenes because like a lot of authors will make fight scenes into this like heroic like noble like, oh, you know, I'm fighting and I'm this heroic thing and I did this cool move and like they'll do all that. And the sex scenes will be like the or the mountains shook with the power of our love. And Abercrombie is like, no, in a fight scene, you probably piss yourself and then trip over your own shoelaces. And then in a sex scene, you likewise piss yourself and trip over your own shoelaces. Like that's just how everything is off the top. You know what, some people are into that kind of thing. I'm just, you know, like, but no, I mean, like they're, again, I just appreciate that every sex scene I saw was consensual that I mean, I know that's a low bar, but in this type of fantasy, I'm like loving that this is all consensual. But yeah, I would describe them as anti-erotic. I think that's fair. I also, I assume you experienced them via Steven Pacey, who I appreciate for the, not actually. Oh, no, I kept losing steam with the audiobook. So I had to switch back to just like good old fashioned, because he definitely like doesn't hold back on the grunting and the panting and the the noises. Oh, well, I do own the audiobook. So maybe I'll have to figure out where those are and seek them out to enjoy that performance. Yes, the squelching. Yeah, yeah, that's it. I think that is like the word. It's quite a word. To describe what his sex scenes are like. It's the squelching. Squelch. Yeah, I would not describe squelch as a sexy word. No, but I think if you just say the word squelching, I think anybody who hears that is adequately prepared for what they're going to be experiencing. Now, is that the same in all of his books? Like, do we ever get a sexy sex scene? I think it's on a spectrum. They're not all quite as like unappealing as Logan and Pharaoh, but they're never like, you know, super ideal. But like, yeah. Well, I just didn't know if, you know, maybe there's like a bed and like, yes, they like each other, you know, pretty well. I mean, we got that with Giselle and Artie when she's like wearing his coat and he's like, oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. It would be interesting. You know what? Hey, Joe, if you're watching this, we'll challenge you. Let's see what kind of smite you can you can write that's actually kind of sexy. I think there's more. I think you could do it. There's much, much, much more sex in the new trilogy than there is in any of the other books. Is it still consensual? Yeah. There's never, um, non-consensual, like assault type of thing. You know what? Thank you, Joe. Exactly. It proves it can be done. Lord Grimdark doesn't feel the need. So any author is like, well, you can't write Grimdark without it. It's like, Lord Grimdark disagree. I mean, like, frankly, that's even one of my critiques of Hobb is I think she relies on it a little too much. It's just like, come on, guys, you got to have another way to show someone's bad. And again, I mean, I object to the notion that you can literally never have that in a book because like, I think that's also like not, you know, that has a place and should be explored if and when need be, but to use it simply as a way to make your book Grimdark. No. Yeah, that's more my objection to is it feels like a lazy, short hand a lot of times to like, exactly, like to just be like, wow, what a bad person. It's like, hey, you know what? Glock does not rape in people. He's just cutting out their tongues. In fairness, I don't- I know he's a bad guy. It's funny that of all the characters you chose Glock to for that, because I think he's the only one that's like literally incapable of that, even if you would wish to. Yeah. Well, wait. Okay. I didn't think about that. So what's already going to do? Raise their kid. Yeah. Okay. Also, you can, well, you can do other things, even if you don't have the equipment to do that. That's a very good point. I'm being very ableist in that respect. Yes, there's there's a lot more than P and V to be experienced in the world of eroticism. So exactly. Yeah. And I feel like Glock then already would be open-minded enough to be like, sure. Oh, I mean, if any characters, if any, if I believe that any characters have like a great sex life post, post final page of these, I was like rooting for you to get to the end of the trilogy, because I was like, there's like a genuine kind of love story. Because like friends to lovers. Yeah, I kind of, I love that for them. And also, like, Glock goes maybe like, if you're talking about on paper, either is my bias are like, the worst people. But like, I was, I was so rooting for him and just like, oh, looky, look at you, Glock. You finally getting a little redemption from your war-torn body. Like, I don't know, redemption is quite the word, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because also they, um, their relationship like, before it ever gets to that point, like we're just like, when they're just talking and getting along and like, they snipe at each other and are really comfortable with each other all the time. And then you're like, okay, well, I have to, did he, did Abercrombie trick you? Did you think Glock was going to kill her in that scene where he goes to see her after he's been told that she's pregnant? And he's like, okay, I gotta do this. And he's like fingering the metal in his pocket. And he's like, okay, now's the time. Don't be like a coward. Now's the time. Now's the time. And then he's like, well, you marry me instead of killing her. I don't remember. I don't think I had a, I don't think I was even like, I don't think I was even thinking that far ahead of what he was going to do. Because by then, if you know anything, it's like, I don't know what's going on really. There's so many times when books when like an author straight up is like lying to you to pull off like a trick or a surprise when they've like, they've, they've actually like, like misled you. And I always like this scene because I'm like, look, the first time you read it, you really think Glock is going to kill her. But if you reread it, it's not like, oh, he lied to me, like, everything Glock is thinking and saying and everything that Abercrombie is saying to you on page, like still checks out with what he's actually there to do. So like, you can trick a reader without lying to a reader. Yeah, well, and I think in general, what the book this trilogy taught me as I went along is that I just don't know what's happening. Do you know what I mean? Not not in a like, this is so confusing, but just like, I just don't know, like, I really don't know what these characters might do. So like, I don't know. Like, I'm kind of like Logan with bias at the beginning of like, I'm not I'm not trying to make plans. Like, I'm just kind of rolling with it. We'll see what's actually gonna say that then if there is like a reader avatar, then it is Glock because Glock does the one that's like trying to figure out what's going on is like, wait, now I just have more questions that was technically an answer, but I am more confused. Now, who is doing this? Who is behind this? Yeah, that is a very good point. Yeah, maybe that's part of how he makes Glotka. Well, aside from the fact that he's just like a crabby relatable king. I think it's that he is like trying to make sense out of the chaos. So it does make you as a reader get on his side. I think the thing that I find very impressive about all of these characters is that it's a great example of characters who are unlikeable, but very readable. Because like, I worry sometimes where I'm like, oh, I just didn't like this. Like, if I don't enjoy reading from a character's point of view, is is it just me like judging them and because they're unlikeable? And it's like, no, there's a difference between someone being an unlikeable character and an unreadable character. And even the characters in this that I did not like and found annoying, aka juzzle, I did not like him and did not enjoy reading from even though Giselle is the most harmless and is actually not hurting anyone. Yeah. But I mean, I didn't like his point of view, but I still enjoyed reading it. Do you know what I mean? Like, that to me is the distinction like I can still Well, and also, I think Abercrombie is like the masterclass in it's not actually hard to distinguish between what a character thinks and what an author thinks. Like when there's so many times when books are written with terrible characters, and there are people are like, does the author think this? And you're like, I don't know, it's hard to tell. I mean, not necessarily. But like, whereas I have never ever thought that Abercrombie thinks the way that his characters think. Exactly. Yeah. Like a surreal attitude. Yeah. It's like the way it's even written is letting you know that that's part of the enjoyment is like you and the author are kind of in on the quote unquote joke. But it doesn't horrible people. It doesn't have to be because somebody else comes into the scene and is like that thing that you did is wrong. You don't have to be invited by the text at all. You can just have them be horrible. And it still is clear that we agree that that was bad. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a skill. But it's one he clearly has just out is like actually the most harmless. Is he the only I think if there's anyone else I would call good. I just say harmless because good to me is like so laden with like what you think of moralism. But he's not hurting anyone like he's literally just kind of selfish and arrogant. But like those are his crimes. That's his biggest crime to me is he's so fucking annoying, I think. And Logan are like relatable and reasonable, but they're like killing people and you're like, I love them. But he was never hurt a fly and would be like ill flies. We ate him. Yeah. I don't know what that says about me, but I'm like, Oh, God, this guy. Well, that's what I always say. The real grim dark is the truths you learn about yourself along the way. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, it is there's the cathartic about being able to just be like, yeah, kill him, like do it. Well, I think it's also relatable because hopefully none of us are like actually like physically enacting violence on people. But like all of us, if we live in the capitalist hellscape that we do, we have bosses, we dislike, we have jobs that we don't appreciate. And we do tasks that we would object to, but we're like, we just suck it up and do it either because we think it's a bad decision, like for the company or whatever, or because we like literally think it's like a bad thing to do. But like, it doesn't cross our line. So we're like, I guess I'll do it. And then when you watch Glock to doing it, it's about like, I mean, he's actually like killing people, but it's still like he's like, well, it's literally my job. And like, what am I supposed to do? Well, and I think this makes me think you'll like escape from the bloodkeep even more because like, it's almost the dynamic of like office, like an office politic thing of just like, yeah, like we're all kind of like rolling our eyes at our bosses, basically, their backs, but like, okay, fine, I guess I'll do this. Yeah, his internal monologue is like, all of us have thought that more or less, when like talking to a boss that thinks that they're genius has these great ideas, doesn't appreciate what you do, ask you to do contradictory things, and you can't say any of that out loud. So like Glock to in his mind, it is like, Oh, yes, of course, but out loud, he's like, I serve and obey your eminence. Yeah, well, and it's, I don't know, it is interesting kind of where things leave off for him. Because I get like, am I, am I remembering greatly he's basically bias is like, voice, like he's like his kind of, yeah, emissary. Basically, yeah. So he, but it's all I would not want bias to be my boss, I'll just say that. But that's also what's relatable about Glock to is we're like, okay, you, you think of your bosses, or like as a kid, you think of your parents or whoever's like above you as having so much power. And then you get to that level yourself and you're like, Oh, we just answer to it. There's always a bigger fish. And so the way Glock to is like been answering to the arch lector all this time. And he reaches like, unimaginable heights of authority, he goes to superior to arch lector by the end. And he's like, well, that should mean I'm free of the, the like ridiculousness that I've been subject to because now I'm the one in charge, but I'm not though, I answer now to bias. Now, now I am just like running the ridiculousness, but I still have no actual power for stopping it. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I'm king now, but are you though? Like, and he's like, man, I miss being a nobody. That was so much better. Yeah, he, he's so annoying. I think my favorite character, yeah, Glock is an already, you're definitely two of my favorites. I also really liked Logan, even though I know he's a bad, bad man. He was very interesting to me. And I was very sad at his ultimate fate, but but I think also one of the like, whether intentional or unintentional, one of the master strokes for getting us to buy in on Logan is the fact that when we're introduced to him, it is a very long time before you actually see the bloody nine. And by the time you see that, you've already bought into this character. Whereas if you had seen the bloody nine to begin with, it would be much harder than to be like, Oh, but he's actually a really nice guy. Like, and you're like, no, I've seen the monster. He is. Yeah. And it's like, well, I mean, he's a monster, but he's trying. You know, aren't we all, we're all. I love the scene when the, the, the fellowship discover because they don't actually even see the bloody nine. He just kind of like whoops the daisies into confessing about the bloody nine to them. And all of them are like, so are you saying you might actually accidentally kill us? And they're like, Oh, we're not comfortable. And Pharaoh's the one that's like, Hey, he's been with us this whole time and you were just fine when you needed healing done. He was useful for that to you. And Logan's like, Pharaoh's sticking up for me. I did not expect that, but I will take it. I'll take the allies where I can find them. She's also the only one that's actually seen the bloody nine and she's sticking up for him. Well, I mean, especially like her point of view is coming from being an enslaved person. Like, yeah, I think she has a different point of view overall. I don't think I can, but I do wish that I wish he'd had a better faith than that. In fairness, I don't think anyone could fix Logan because it's unfixable to have that level of split personality. Yeah, yeah, I, you know, without like medical intervention. Yeah. Somebody asked a good question I saw up above. Do you think it's better to listen or to read Abercrombie books? What do you think, Liana? I mean, personally, like Stephen Pacey is so amazing that I say listen, but it also did, like if you're the kind of person that really, really struggles with audiobooks, like Stephen Pacey is one of the best narrators in the business. But even so, if you're just like not receptive to like audio, then obviously physically reading it is, yeah, but they are some of the best audiobooks like around. I definitely recommend people try the audiobook, at least for the first one, because I think it really helped me understand like get into the characters a lot more. Such distinctive voices. Yeah, yeah, but it I just couldn't focus on them this through this go around. But so reading them physically was also perfectly fine. It also does help if you're like me and sometimes you do want to skim an action scene a little bit. It is easier to do that with your eyeballs than your ears. Sure, but he does bring a level of theatricality that makes it come to life in a way that me physically reading it wouldn't I'd be like blood, blood, tripping, falling, killing, whereas Stephen Pacey like, enacts it with his voice. Yeah. Yeah. So it just depends on what you like. By the way, there's about I think I'm about to get a severe thunderstorm warning. So just FYI in case things cut off suddenly, which is again, one of my favorite scenes is when Giselle is like miserable in the rain and he bought this fancy coat that the man at the shop told him was definitely waterproof and he certainly looked really good in it when he tried it on and it's like immediately he's like soaked and Logan is like living for the rain and Giselle is like miserable and even more miserable at seeing someone else not be miserable. He's such a whiny little bitch. But he does if anybody in the books at all could be said to change, it's Giselle. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, he gets to be king. So and even West is like, who are you and what did you do with Giselle because you are acting and sounding very kingly? Well, you know, heavy is the head who wears the crown or whatever. So we haven't actually really talked about like all these answers that are supposedly so satisfying and last argument of kings where it's all been leading to like, did you see it coming? Did you not? Was it? Oh, no, no, no, like I said, I by that point, I was like I after, especially after the ending of the second book, it's just like, okay, I don't know what's going on. So like, let's just find out what happens. Like I could never have guessed the whole Giselle becoming king thing. I did not see the bias was just like such a fucking piece of shit. Like he's the worst one probably. Well, he also is like, it's a matter of having the ability because who's to say and someone else wouldn't do worse than him given access to that kind of power. But he has the ability and decides to use it for the worst ways. Yeah, we already talked about this. Yeah, you missed our our verdict. My I described them as non erotic. I love them. Yeah. We have that. What else do we get covered? What? Well, I think the I feel like the answer is the biases behind everything. But like, it's in ways that is like that that you couldn't have predicted and that in his like hand reaches further and more specifically. Yeah, and I'm not sure that I even fully understand how all of that worked to be totally honest. I just was like, bias is bad. Okay, he's he's the big bad. I realized that money is a lot more powerful than going Kaboom at like five people. Yeah, which definitely feels like a commentary on the state of our world, which also like by the end, I mean, this is called the first law. And in the beginning of the book, when we get our like debrief on magic, we learned that like the first law is about not touching the other side. Yeah, like, by the end, by as is like, might makes right. That's the only law. That's my first law. So is that why it's called the first law trilogy? Well, I asked him that and he was like, mostly I just had a chapter that was called that and I was like, well, I need a title for this thing. And that'll do. Okay, because I was like also it is the might makes right thing. Yeah, I did though, I did some wicking afterwards to try to understand what was going on in the magic a little bit more. And I don't think to this day, I don't think I really understand what the first law fully means. It's just that all magic comes from the other side and that you shouldn't touch the other side. But then like they all have magic. So they're all breaking it. Yeah, so by as says that that the first law is a paradox because all magic comes from the other side. Okay. And then the second law is the eater thing. Are there more laws? Just the two? Possibly probably are they important? They might mention a third law at some point. But I mean, the laws are what bias might makes right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I mean, fair enough. But yeah, no, I didn't see any of that coming at all. And I don't know if that's just because I was not being an attentive enough reader. Maybe I'm just dumb, but I was like, Oh, okay. But then there's also that this isn't bias. Well, I mean, it's related to bias, but the fact that quiet hasn't been quiet for most of the run time that I thought was very interesting. I likewise did some wicking to try to understand what the context there was and which is one of those things where like when I think when people talk about how meandering the series feels or how like you don't know where anything is going. And I've always said that as a writer, it's like hard to know how much you're giving things away. Like when you're hinting at things, like how much how obvious. Because like when I really read the books and I know all the answers, like I can easily see Abercrombie being like, I am giving this away. How do you not see what I'm saying? And the thing is, you don't see any of it if you don't know to look for it. So like the moment that Kwi changes, like when you know that he changes and you know to look for that, it's so obvious. He acts so different from like, it's like day and night. And you're like, how did I not immediately go? But because like it didn't occur to you that somebody would shape shift and take his place. Because it's like not a thing that entered your mind as an option. So you're just like, I guess he's acting kind of weird, but like, okay. And at what point, I don't even remember at what point that happened. So in the first book when Glokta is asked to investigate, because there's a body that's found like in the shrubbery that's been like mauled. And he's like asked to investigate it. But then like someone else is like, dogs, dogs did it. And Glokta is like, dogs did this. You think dogs did this. And they're like, yep, who did it? And he's like, fine, whatever. It's not worth my paycheck to like bother about this. That's right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I did not see it coming. But to your point, I just don't think I was paying enough attention. But yeah, I was in, I was in vibing mode for a lot of this read. I was not in like problem solving or like trying to figure it out mode. I was just like, I'm just letting this happen to me. Yeah. It's not until much, much, much, much later in the game that you even realize that shapeshifting isn't on the table. Like, so it wouldn't occur to you when Kwai starts acting weird to be like, oh, he's probably a shapeshifter. You just feel like Kwai is acting weird. It is, that is one of the kind of cool things in these like, softer magic books is that you, like when you're in Lord of the Rings, or I mean, I guess if you're just like in a high magic context, you're like on alert for magic. But if it's a lower magic, it's, you're not necessarily jumping to that immediately. Yeah, you're mostly thinking of like real world type of like resources. You're not like expecting magic to happen all the time or magical solutions. You're like, oh, this is like, we need swords as the solution. We need horses as the solution. We're not expecting like Kaboom magic. And when Kaboom magic happens, you're like, please never do that again. That was awful. Yeah. Well, and to what Brex is saying, like it was clear that bias was like up to something, but I guess I just didn't like put together ways to make. Yeah, like I thought that he, so like my take by the end of the second book was like, oh, the journey here is like, you're being set up to think he's like the wizard who has all the answers and he's gonna kind of like come in and save the day. And at the end of the second book, when the seed isn't there, it's like, oh, okay, you've been like, that's the journey he's been taking you on is to like have bias be like the failed Gandalf, like he's the Gandalf who can't deliver what needs to be delivered. But actually he can, but just like in the most horrifying way possible. Yeah. And the thing is he did save the day, but he saved the day from a calamity of his own making. Yeah. I mean, save the day is like, his like, his horrifying, like magical atomic bomb saves them from the Girkish invasion. That's like, what? But like, what would it? Yeah. And like, what I guess like, what would have happened if the Girks were now in charge? But they wouldn't have been invading at all if Glockta had been permitted to like, he was made to think that the Girkish ambassador killed the prince and he was executed for it and now peace was not going to be an option. Like the Girkish came over like, Hey, we just want peace. Like, let's do a peace agreement. And it was a totally fine peace agreement that Glockta would be like, that sounds good. But they set him up to have like killed the prince because somebody doesn't want peace with Girkul. And who is somebody by us? Yeah. But yeah, you just realized that at all of what you thought were like, the the machinations have all just been like a game of chess between like by as and and what's his name in Girkul? My moon. Kulul. Kulul and my moon. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you realize that all of all of this is just the big game they're playing with each other. And they're all just pawns, even. Yeah. And like, I guess what I'm saying is like, realistically, how much worse is life for most of these people under the rule of the Girkish empire than the Union? I mean, bias isn't in the business of improving people's lives. Yeah. But I guess that's what I mean. Like when you say like, when we say bias like kind of saves the day and it's like, well, but from what? And I mean, in, I guess we will, there's no way to know, but arguably maybe the kingdom would be better off with Gisela's king if Gisela was permitted to actually be king. Be king because he's not. Yeah. Yeah. And he, yeah, maybe he would be an okay king because he's like the least bad of anybody we've encountered. When he like tries to like put his foot down at bias and he's like, no, like we should like help people and he like tries to do heroic things and he like wants to like see the like starving people. And he's like, no, we should give them blankets and stuff and by as is like, stop it. I'm in charge. Just I was like, but I'm king. I don't want to be king. Oh, okay. That is fair. The Girkish are enslavers. Okay. Also, okay. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I'll walk this back a little bit. But I mean, again, they wouldn't have, like there could have been peace with Girkle, not necessarily like Girkish occupation. And they refused peace. So bias is, it's not a great, and then we have this like the lovely, like here, here's all the answers conversation with bias and Glock to where, where he talks about the people like the reason he had to like step in basically because he's been pretty hands off with like letting things like run themselves for the last several hundred years, which is why people were like bias. What are you joking? The first of the, oh, he's real. Because like people decided like he'd been gone long enough. They were like, oh, we can bring in our own reforms for how we want to run this place and socialism and, and things like that. And by us is like, ha, people don't want to like roll themselves. I don't know what that means. I don't know how to make decisions. They want to be told what to do. Yeah. He's like very lawful evil. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But no, I, I really enjoyed this. I, I do think I'll continue on in the series. Well, and that the balancing bulk thing too, that like, you don't, like it starts to, the more you hear it as you read the series, because Glock does starts to notice it and be like, the bank again, it's the bank again. It's the bank again. But like by the end of the series, Valentin Bulk is like Voldemort. You're like, if someone says, oh, this is from the banking house of Valentin Bulk, you're like, it's the valleys. Yeah. It's the bad. The banks are evil. That's the, the big twist. Is the second book better than the first? I only liked Logan. It depends on what you liked. Yeah. And if you're looking for characters to like, this may not be a great series for you. I mean, I love the characters, but they're not good people. Yeah. They're not likable, but they, I was invested in them. They're compelling. Yes. Yeah. They're very interesting. And we haven't talked at all about Colonel West. What a great brother he is. Yeah. Because he's actually the character that I think would, I would say more so than Giselle is like the good guy character. Because aside from beating his sister, like he earned the place he had, he earned the job he has. He's pretty good at it. He's got pretty good sense at leading an army. He like most of the time, but then he also like beat his sister and murdered a prince. So you're like, well, but the prince thing I was pretty okay with like, Yeah. I mean, he was trying to assault that lady. So, So we murder him? I mean, in this world, yeah, I think so. I feel like if it hadn't, if he had just been some guy doing that, you'd be like, murder is like quite an escalation. But because he'd been so awful, like he was the reason all those people were dead because he didn't know anything about the military. Exactly. Charge. Go charge. Yeah. Yeah. He had a lot of blood on his hand. So by the time he's trying to assault someone, it's like, okay, yeah, I think, I think in this world that means you just got to die. But I did, I also thought it was interesting that like, okay, he kills this prince for her and then she immediately pretty much dies in. Not just dies, but like she went for the dog man, not him. And she literally tells him, you're too angry for me. He's like curious about her saying that he's too angry for her. I liked that a lot. I was like, good for you dog man. Dog man is so chill. Yeah. But then of course, the like dramatic irony that West gets to like laugh at when he's like, when he gets the promotion and he's like, I kind of caused this because if I hadn't killed the prince, then we needed a king and the king happens to be Giselle who I don't really even like very much. And he happens to like promote me. So I'm like the only person he knows, it's like the craziness of like how you get to that point and it is life is that random. Yeah. And you know, I mean, like, and he he has like earned it. I mean, like it's like, it's both that he it's just that from nepotism or like he knows a guy, but also like, he actually is qualified. Well, it's like weird situation because like most of the time we'd be like, oh, it should be a meritocracy and nepotism is gross. But then like, it's all it's literally only because of nepotism that he finally gets the position that he did by merit earn, but he would never have gotten it without the nepotism. Yeah, exactly. I don't know what I'm rooting for anymore. Yeah. Well, yeah, I don't know. He's getting good at playing those those knuckleheads off of each other when he's like, they wanted to get rid of you. And I was like, let's give him a chance. And he says the exact same thing to the other guys, like they wanted to get rid of you. And I was forgiving you another chance. And the two of them like have to be like super loyal to West because he's like playing them off each other. It's a brilliant. I yeah, I really liked all of the like machination kind of stuff. Like all of that I thought was really well done. Yeah, the politics in general is also very like, I find it really like satisfying to read because like a lot of fantasy books are like, this doesn't ring true and or if only the world was like that, because like the good people do good, the bad people do bad, you easily recognize them and the people recognize it and we overthrow the baddies and you're like, you know, okay, but no. And like in these books, the way that like politics and money is like really messy and complicated. And it's never that simple or that satisfying or that like, sometimes baddies win, sometimes goodies win. The goodies aren't very good. The baddies aren't actually that bad. They're kind of it makes sense what they're doing, even if you're not for it. And it's just like, you're like, yes, that's how the world is. Well, I mean, it's the whole like, very few people are trying to do evil for evil's sake. It's like most, you know, Glapka's just trying to like, do a job. And, you know, Logan's just trying to like, survive. We talk about World War Two and the way that we like, we kind of narrativize it as like the evil empire. And like, certainly they did things, but mostly it was just people following orders. Yeah. Well, and I mean, like, that is a certain kind of evil, but it's like, I think a less comfortable evil. It's easier. But it's not mustache twirling. It's like somebody who's just like, they're the yes sir, yes sir, that those are my orders. And like, yeah, it's not mustache twirling. It's just like complacency and like, just like being willing to look the other way. Like I think that's a harder evil for us to confront because it's a very human evil. Or also the way that I think he does a pretty good job of, and he gets increasingly good at doing this as his writing, you know, improves with kind of showing the intelligence and also gullibility of the common man. Because it's again, it's not that it's not that people, the common people are stupid. And it's also not that the common people are smart, because it's never that simple. So like, you can certainly like galvanize the common man for like, like lie to them in a way that is convincing to them and get them on board with stuff. But it's not just that oh, the common man is stupid, because like, there's also things that the common man will realize, and they will revolt pushed too far. So like, it's like a delicate balance. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, it's, there's something like there is something to be said for the like, pure good and pure evil in a lot of stories, like I enjoy that oftentimes. But I do think it is interesting to explore things that are less clear cut. Yeah, I know that in general, like people regard the more Tolkien-esque type of thing as like escapist, and therefore like uplifting is like all the world is terrible. Let's read a book about how heroes are heroes, the good guys win and like benevolent kings bring about an age of peace for 1000 years or whatever. Oh, isn't that great. And like, on some level, like I understand well, I mean, I don't personally feel this way, but like I understand why people might excuse me feel uplifted by that. Personally, I feel that I feel depressed when I read that because then I soon as I put the book down and I return to the real world and I'm like, real world's not like that, real world sucks. And so then like reading a book like first law is so cathartic because you're like, yeah, that's how the world is as opposed to reading this thing that you're like, in what world? You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think for me, I tend to yeah, it's hard for me to have to get into those kind of stories at like grand scale. I'm thinking like, even just in some of the sci fi romance stuff I read, one of the things I like with I mean, because the romance always has a happy ending, right? Like that's a part of the deal. But like the good ones, especially in sci fi romance, it's messy good endings. So it's like, hey, we've stolen a spaceship and we're going to this planet and we're gonna have to hide out here so that nobody ever steals us again, but we can forge a hard life but a free one here. That to me feels more uplifting of like, okay, this isn't perfect and like you've not like changed the galaxy or whatever, but it's like you this these few people have found a way to make their lives okay, like that feels more uplifting to me, because it feels more the best we can kind of hope for. Well, I think I mean, like I first law, I think it's different from a lot of grim dark because a lot of grim dark is depressing, because it is extremely doom and gloom and is extremely like dark and violent and nothing good ever happens. And we're all just going to be like wearing eyeliner and you know, it's just sadness. And that is quite depressing, like that's not cathartic, but like because or it's not realistic. Well, that's the thing. That's like the motto you have to be realistic of Logan nine fingers. Because like the the tone of first law is more of like cynicism and gallows humor, as opposed to like, the world is a tragic horrible place where nothing could ever happen. And it's also not we're like, oh, the heroes will save the day. It's like, no, like, people be people in like, sometimes good people do bad things. Sometimes bad people do good things. And it's just a big old mess. Yeah. Yeah. I think messy is interest. It's definitely interesting. I and I get why sometimes like, you know, like, it does take work to engage with the messiness. So I get that that's not always like what people want to read. But I this was definitely very interesting and engaging, like I guess it felt like an edifying read the same way that like Hobb does. But I think Abercrombie is funnier. Oh yeah, for sure. And it's more, I would say it's higher entertainment value than Hobb is. Like it's more of a meaning. Again, when I was I've often said that Hobb could like easily be classified as grimdark if the perspectives were slightly different. But it's honestly like more depressing. Yeah, it's it feels more depressing. Like it truly does, I think, Hobb. Well, it's almost because your perspectives are often the doe eyed kind of innocence. So they are horrified by what they're seeing. Whereas if you get to see the same thing from the perspective of someone like Locta, who's like, yep, it's terrible what you're going to do. That's it's like the same horrible thing is happening. But because you're not seeing it through the eyes of somebody, like you don't have to like, experience it with somebody who's horrified, you get to experience it with somebody who's jaded. And jaded is less depressing than horrified. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. And you know, many, if not most of our characters in Hobb, I think you could define as good. So when the bad things happen to them, it is a lot. Yeah, I mean, they are. And we've said a lot about like evilness. And like, I meant to say this like earlier, when we were talking about there not being any essay, no assault or anything, and about how like that's used as a crutch, you know, by a lot of authors, but it's not the only thing that's used as a crutch. Like a lot of authors don't know how to write a villain without making them mustache twirling, or without doing things that are like, Oh, I know this is the villain because I just watched them kill a cat. And you're like, great. So like, I mean, Abercrombie doesn't really like, I guess bias is the villain, but there aren't really like villains and heroes in First Law. There's just people that are just doing stuff. And like you kind of root for the people that happen to be your POVs. But like, there isn't like Sauron versus the Fellowship, you know, it's just like, you know, just people. Yeah, but a lot of them would be considered quite villainous. And we talked about how we don't mistake their opinions for Abercrombie's opinions, but they all do feel like really fleshed out three dimensional characters, even if they're thinking terrible things. And so like, I asked him about that and was like, do you like when you're writing this, like, are you like concerned that people will think that you think like that take the characters views for your views? And do you like, if you are worried about that, are you like actively trying to like put things in your writing to like, make it clear that they're not or think or like how you like, get in the headspace of a terrible person because they are such like three dimensional characters. Like, how do you think like somebody who I'm hoping and assuming you don't think like, you know, things like that. Yeah. And, and he was like, well, like the worst thing is if you're reading something and like, oh, this person is the villain. And you know how I know they're the villain, they just said something racist. And you're like, that's not interesting. That's not compelling. That's not going to complicate a reader's understanding of anything. He's like, everybody's like, no one thinks they're a villain. Everybody has their reasons for doing something. So you just kind of have to be like, okay, from their perspective, this is the right thing to do. And what does that like look like? You know, and they think this is right. Yeah. And so it's he's like, I don't think it's a lot of things he'll be like about writing women characters or about writing any characters and making them be like real people. He's like, I don't think it's rocket science. And you just kind of like think about how it would be for a person. And I'm like, sir, apparently it is rocket science. Well, I think it's just, I don't know, like it requires an empathetic imagination, which you know, I mean, in the new trilogy, one of the main POV characters, a lot more females in general, but one of the main POV characters who is female, there's a lot of like female bodily functions that are like described in detail. And also like her experience of them is described in detail. And it felt extremely authentic. And it was handled in exactly the same way that he handles all the male characters complaining about their junk or complaining about their need to piss or or whatever or glocked as aches and pains. And of course, well, one, the reaction to it from certain readers was like, Oh, like, we don't want to read about periods. Like, I thought I was reading a first law book, like, since when is this like, since when are you writing YA? And it's like, he's written from a female's perspective, and he's doing exactly the same thing with her as he does with any character is like, what would she be going through? How would she feel about that? And I will write that. But he also doesn't try having a period every month and see if it doesn't I was like, did you like go around asking all of your female acquaintance? Like, how does it feel to have a period? Because I'm writing a character that has to have a period. Oh my gosh. Yes, that doesn't make it YA obviously. Yeah. Yeah, it is frustrating and annoying that like, the state of publishing is just like, they funnel so much or I don't know if it's just like the way that the markets are like, I can't quite understand how this has happened, but like so many YA fantasy protagonists are female. And so many fantasy adult fantasy protagonists are male. Like I just don't understand how that came to be. Oh, I think we have the kitty cat. Kitty cat wrangling. Give me one second. Yes. Well, now that I have control of the channel, let's see, what could we do to make Leanna mad? Everybody starts sending some Sanderson books to her PO box. Everybody can put in the chat their favorite part of Sanderson. Reasons why you think he's better than Abercrombie or Gaiman. Sorry, my maintenance from the building. Oh, you were not being burgled. No. Hey, I'm back. So hope you guys got your truth while I wasn't here. Yeah. So yeah, I'm glad I thought you liked it and found it, found it worth your time. Me too. I'm relieved that our friendship can continue. Yeah, I think, I mean, obviously, his writing, I've said many times like gets better and better, especially the new trilogy is like the best. He's yeah, when it was announced, a little hatred, that would be this like new first law book that's the beginning of a new trilogy. I was like, I mean, I will read it, but like, are we just doing more first law to do more first law? I was like, I mean, okay, but like, I don't know if this is necessary. Sure. And then I read the little hatred and I was like, this is the best thing you've ever written. Like, I'm so, so, so, so sorry. But I was like, but also you can't keep this up. Like that was wow. But I think you shot your wand. And then I read a Trouble with Peace. And I was like, that was better little hatred. I was like, okay, but that's it. This has got to be the peak. This is going to be like a fizzle ending. There's just no way I'm not expecting it because I'll be disappointed if I expect it to be as good. And the third one was the best one of the three. I was like, I'm so sorry I ever doubted you. This is so good. So do you recommend reading an order of public hate? Like, is there, okay, so I should just like, just keep reading them the order they came out? Yes, because like, he does like build on things. And he, I mean, he's very like self deprecating. So like, he gives the most like not self grandizing answer for like, how he like construct stuff, because like, there's so many like characters that are like minor characters now that like become more prominently major later, or their children or like something about their connection, maybe they're not in it, but like something that you know about like the how they've met at some point, like colors a scene later that like if you happen to know, just makes it so much more of an interesting scene because they're like, it's that added coloring. Yeah. And so like, I think I brought it, I don't know how I asked about it, but like something about that. And he was basically being like, oh, I'm just being a lazy writer when I do that, because like, if I have a scene where like two people are at a bar and talking, and I have this other character, I can also be there that I already have that I don't have to do anything, they just are interesting. If they're already there, then like that's less work for me to just make the scene so much more interesting, just have them there. And I'm like, but he like makes it sound like he's like cheating and being a bad writer to do that. But I'm like, no, like you are observing opportunities presented by your writing and utilizing them like other like less good authors don't think of it and don't like, take those opportunities when they present themselves. Well, I'm looking forward as I get more into this, seeing some of the like, building of things, because I think some of my favorite series authors like the one I'm thinking of right now is Nalini Singh. She's a really good reader of her own work. So like, as things progress, it's not necessarily that she planned for something to happen. But like she sees the opportunity to like bring things back in, or to like explain why something happened. I really, I think that's a real skill that not a lot of authors have like to be self aware enough of their own work to find those moments. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think we'll that's also, I think other authors do more of that or are more personally interested in that kind of approach to like magic and world building. And Abercrombie's focus is obviously always on the characters. So like, it's not really like, like in other conversations I've had with people as they are reading this series. And of course, you know, I am everyone's first law Sherpa. So I'm always present. So I'm like, oh, first law. But a lot of times people who read a lot of fantasy will read first law and be like, oh, like they mentioned this sword and this sword must be an important magical thing that comes into it later. And it's like, nah, no, he's like, not this isn't going to be like the knee thrill shirt is like, you know, if he's just doesn't care. Yeah. It's actually, it's so interesting you say that because Nellini sings the same way. Like she's a very character focused author. So maybe that's part of it is if like that's where you're sort of in facets is you're less trying to like make this cool world and more just like focused on making your characters feel like real people and therefore like things kind of grow out of that more organically. And I think people who are like huge fans of like the puzzle box of Sanderson like that approach, which I am not. There's other things I dislike about Sanderson, but like that specifically like it's kind of like with the reading uplifting things like I understand YA puzzle box with like MacGuffins and Easter eggs and connections is satisfying to a reader that finds I just I just don't care about that either. But like, if that is what you like is like piecing together the puzzle of this like this magic and world and like the marvel thing of like this device is then seen elsewhere and then you put it together and it makes this like bigger device and like that type of thing. I'm like, I do not care. And also Abercrombie does not care. So like people who want that will not really like first law if they're like expecting the magic to be this like, and it all came together and it all builds. Yeah. I think for me, Alona Andrews does a good job of sort of like giving me that kind of story, but it doesn't go all the way to the point where like the characters get lost, which is to me sometimes. Yeah, this made me laugh or side note. Well, I'll come back to that. But anyway, I do like an element of a puzzle box, but it has to be married for me with being invested in the character aspect of it. And for me, Alona Andrews threads that line well, or threads walks that line well threads the needle. There you go, combining two different analogies there. Because like there is this kind of puzzle box element of like the overall story building to something, but it's not at the expense of the characters, which I think can sometimes be the danger when you're too focused on the puzzle and not enough on the characters. I think it also like I always, in general, I tend to prefer reading books from authors, like I don't see this out on purpose, but it just like tends to happen to be the case when I like go and then look at the authors that I like. This like is a recurring trend that they are oftentimes not actually that much interested in their own genre. Like they're not constantly reading their own genre. They're interested in something that's outside of that. And then they bring that to the genre. So like authors who are like really interested in like engineering like Ken Liu is, and he brings so much engineering to like his fantasy and sci-fi. And then like Abercrombie like reads a lot of like history and political science and things like that. So like that's clearly like what he's bringing a lot of to first law. And I think that well, one it really shows, but also if that thing is a thing that I'm also more inclined towards. So like engineering, I appreciate and so like academically like I respect a great deal of what Ken Liu does, but I just don't care that much about engineering. I definitely care more about like history and political science and things like that. So like that's what Abercrombie is interested in. And when you're interested in that, then that's how you're constructing your puzzle box. It's like a puzzle of politics versus someone like Ken Liu who's constructing a literal mechanical puzzle box. And it's very inventive and I could not have come up with that. And it's so impressive. I don't care about puzzles though, like literal physical puzzles do not like them. So like I would much rather read a book from an author who likes politics more than, you know, quantum physics or engineering or whatever it is. I mean, I love a mystery. So I'm always down for something for me to figure out. But I guess I love her a film noir. So there's that. That's like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a I feel like there's a lot of mystery in this trilogy. Well, again, he was like going for the sort of like the film noir. Yeah, type of thing. Speaking of the wizards pooping in the halls. And circling back to dimension 20, there's another little side quest they did that was called misfits and magic, which is parodying Harry Potter and making fun of how crappy a lot of its inherent world building stuff is. And in that one, they literally just they still shit in the hallways. And they're like, and so there's like, the muggles who are coming in and they're like, you're, wait, you just poop? And they're like, well, you magic it away. And they're like, there are toilets. Like why? Why? Why are we relying on magic for? Anyway, it's things like that. But well, in it, I think she like J.K. Rowling is like a good point to it's more less, I guess it's she does this a lot in her tweets, but also then with the fantastic based series and a lot of authors make this mistake. Or in my opinion, a mistake where they over explain things and they provide unnecessary backstory and almost any prequel, not always, but almost any prequel is answering questions that nobody asked. And we were all happy or not knowing. And like, just because someone is asking you questions is like, I love this character, I want to know everything about them. Like as an author, you should know that it's better to say anything. Resisting that impulse is advisable. Yeah. So like, I asked Abercrombie if he would write, you know, if he would consider writing prequels, and he was like, why? I was like, I would be down to read some novellas with young hot Glocka, like, well, sharp ends the short story collection. One of the short stories is pre is hot Glocka. Okay, I mean, so like he technically lied, he has written prequels because he wrote the short story of Glocka, pre abuse, pre torture. Yeah, which is fun. Also, if you're like, switching back and forth on audio and physical by the time you get to sharp ends, I recommend doing sharp ends on audio at least for the one story that is read by Joe Abercrombie himself. Okay, well, when I hit that point, I will seek it out. The whole the rest of it is all still read by Stephen Pacy. But so it's not, I don't think it's very spoilery to say in a red country, which is the standalone that's kind of like him seeing like if he could do like a Western in the world of the first law. One of the characters in it is like a chronicler that's like been hired by somebody to like write down the adventures of this person who's in the story. And so one of the short stories is like what that chronicler ended up writing down about what happened in red country. And so if you've read red country, one, you know how inaccurate this account of it is. And two, it's like filled with like all these like, authorial flourishes of like, randomness of it. And so then that's the one that Abercrombie reads. That's fun. I like that. Well, I am, it's getting very thundery here. I don't know if you can hear. I should probably go make sure my cats are not like destroying my house. But I am down to read more of this. So maybe we can reconvene once I've made more progress. Literally any time I do nothing, we reread verse law as we all know. I was like, was messaging somebody about like a certain part of it. And they're like, are you rereading first law? You're like, I'm just like, when am I not? Well, we also need to pick, I feel like we don't have a fantasy buddy reading project going right now. Yeah, this really can't count because this is this is just my life. Well, also, I was a very crappy buddy reading this time around, just because I was so distracted. But we'll have to decide we need to pick something to embark on. That's less pressure because it's not something that you already know that you have to like it. Otherwise, yes, over. Exactly. I mean, and fairness. So red country is my least favorite first law book. I think I still give it three stars. Maybe I bumped it up to a four, but it was like a 3.5 rounded up. So like, I don't always be like anything Abercrombie does is perfection. Oh, I mean, I know you well enough to know you would not just give him a free ride. I do not. Yeah. Oh, I think I might have bumped up red country because I still don't like it that much. Like the story, I don't like it. I don't like Westerns. So like for Western, I'm like, you're better than a Western because you're first law, but you're still Western. So you suck. But it has some of the best quotes in it. Like the last time I reread red country, I realized so many of the quotes that I just know and then use on people to be like, Oh, if we want to read first law, like this quote should convince you to read it. This quote is so relatable. This quote is so like relevant. I realized that like almost all of them are from red country. And I was like, that deserves points, right? So I'll bump you up for the just not the story, but just like the literal like words that are in here are really good. I don't like a normal Western, but I do really enjoy speculative Western. So but that is not terribly speculative anyway. So like, there's not much that's speculative about it. It's just in a world that's not our own. Yeah. Well, I'll get to it eventually. I did watch the Western movie that he most like was inspired by for his story, after having read red country. And oh my God, red country is a million times better than the movie that inspired him. I was like, sir, I don't know why you would want to write a book that's like this movie. This movie is terrible, but you definitely improved it. Well, there you go. I mean, you know, he said he could make it better and he did. There's one thing in particular that I was expecting the movie to do because the book does it and it doesn't do that at all. And I was like, did Abercrombie also watch this movie and be like, this is missing. I'll fix it. All right, so I'll let you escape your storm. Yeah. Yeah, it's the joys of Tennessee, man. It was summer storm time. The sun is beating through my window. Well, earlier than now, I'm actually very thankful it's here because it's been roasting for the last week. So this is supposed to start cooling us down a little bit. But anyway, let me go make sure my cats are not freaking out because they are very afraid of storms. Yeah, it has very little experience with them. My guess is she would also not enjoy them. Or she'd be fine with it. I don't really can ever tell her to stand out in the rain. She doesn't really freak out at like fireworks and stuff. She's a city cat. She is. She's a city kitty. Well, I'm pleased and relieved that this went. I am too. I'm friendship, friendship saved. Friendship saved. Now I guess I'll have to read Nalini Singh. Well, or not. We do have a reading project together coming up. So maybe I'll make you read Nalini Singh. That's a thought. Dang it. To me in my big mouth. I mean, I know I have no chance of actually picking things you're going to like. So I kind of am taking a chaos approach of just like. I don't. But there's no chance. Come on. You just, you don't even know what books you're going to like. I know, but that means that like you have an even chance. That's why I'm taking a chaos approach. That's not no chance, though. Well, still. All right. Well, it's been fun. Thank you for putting up with my fan girling. I enjoyed it. Whether that's true or not, I appreciate the sentiment. No, I did. We'll talk, well, we'll talk, if not sooner than for, um, plays and bar circles. I mean, I will see you in real life. Yes, we will be documented. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. We will officially be meeting in October. No, we've already. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We will be officially meeting online in October. Yes. Exactly. In costume. Yes. So excited. All right. Have a good rest of your weekend. You and everybody and. Thanks, everyone. Bye.