 The next item of business is a debate on motion 7805, in the name of Ben Macpherson, on update on the social security programme business case. I would invite those members who would wish to speak in the debate, please press the request to speak buttons and I call on Ben Macpherson minister to speak to and to move the motion up to 11 minutes, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Since the passing of the UK Government's Scotland Act 2016 and the unanimous passing of the Social Security Act 2018 in this Parliament, establishing Scotland's social security system has been the biggest delivery programme since devolution, with new powers allowing us to better support the people of Scotland. We have already achieved an extraordinary amount in that time and I pay tribute to the many people who have been involved in this shared challenge and success, including people on our experience panels, stakeholders who have helped to shape our benefits, the staff of Social Security Scotland, Scottish Government officials and our delivery partners in the UK Government. We have achieved this together because social security is a collective endeavour, it is a collective investment in people. That is one of the eight principles enshrined in the 2018 act, along with others such as the role of social security in reducing poverty and that our system be designed with the people of Scotland on the basis of evidence, continuous improvement, efficient delivery and value for money. Together, we can be proud of what we have already achieved, including introducing, despite the pandemic, 12 Scottish Government benefits, 13 from later this month, seven of which are entirely new forms of financial support, which are only available here in Scotland, all delivered based on the agreed values of dignity, fairness and respect. Can I ask the minister if he thinks that it is fair or dignified to let people wait for sometimes up to six months to get that adult disability payment? I appreciate Mr Willie Rennie's points and the correspondence that we have had on this matter. Many people are receiving adult disability payment efficiently but there have been a number of cases where people have waited too long and we are proactively putting in changes into the system as the system develops to ensure that waiting times go down. I think that that is an important point and much of my focus is on that on a day-to-day basis. However, as Audit Scotland said in its report last year, successfully launching new benefits during the pandemic has been a significant achievement for the Scottish Government. Social Security Scotland has performed well and its annual client surveys have been positive, for example, showing that 94 per cent of people think that they have been treated with the kindness that they deserve. That is testament to the way that we deliberately take time to co-design our benefits with people who receive them at one of the many things that we are doing differently in our system. Audit Scotland also made it clear that it had real concerns around challenging timescales. Has the minister reflected on those concerns? Again, another important point, which I will come to shortly. Next year, we will spend a record £5.2 billion through Scottish Government benefits, £776 million more than the funding that we are forecast to get from the UK Government through block grant adjustments, providing important support to more than 1 million people in Scotland. That will double to an expected 2 million people in 24-25, which demonstrates the scale and pace of the expansion of our Scottish social security system. By 27-28, spending on Scottish Government benefits will raise to £7.3 billion, more than £1.4 billion over and above transfers from the UK Government. On top of that, we will also support people with discretionary housing payments, the Scottish welfare fund and the council tax reduction scheme. Our significant investment demonstrates the political choices that we make in Scotland to prioritise support for the people who need it most, particularly during those challenging times, including delivering our Scottish child payment of £25 per week per child for 387,000 eligible children. Last year, we launched adult disability payment across Scotland, a major milestone that allows us to make a real difference to people's lives, with no-one being subject to DWP-style assessments or functional examinations. Last week, we launched a public consultation on the eligibility criteria for the mobility component of adult disability payment. That is the first step that will inform the independent review that we have committed to establish later this year. I thank the minister for taking the intervention. To say that the consultation has been underwhelming, I think, is an understatement. One organisation has described it to me as this. It really is something. Pages of notes about cost and numerous references to a fixed budget and precious little about delivering the support that disabled people need. They say outright at one point that major changes, and this is quoting the consultation, major changes that result in new additional spending will therefore not be deliverable within this parliamentary term. I do not think that they could be much more clear that they are planning to do absolutely nothing with this consultation. How would the minister respond to that? I think that that is an extremely negative positioning of an important consultation. I would hope that Pamdor Cunglancy will be sharing this important consultation among stakeholder groups and encouraging people to apply because we genuinely want to hear people's input. We are also investing in automated payments so that people get their benefits without needing to apply, which is something that we have developed significant progress on this year, and that includes automatically awarding child winter heating assistance and carers allowance supplement. I am pleased to confirm again that we have now received the data that we need from the DWP for our 13th benefit winter heating payment, which will provide a reliable investment of over £20 million each year to support eligible households, more than double the £8.3 million provided on average by the DWP in its cold weather payments during each of the last seven years. As we confirmed last week, work is now progressing as planned, and payments will be made automatically this month or next to up to 415,000 people who are eligible. In its report last year, following the impact of the pandemic, Parliament will recall that three of Audit Scotland's recommendations were, one, include replanning activity, two, set out timelines for remaining benefits, and three, publish an updated programme business case, including refreshed estimates for implementation costs. We have published that business case today, a detailed and evidence-based rationale for what we are doing and the costs of doing so. The business case includes an uplift in essential implementation costs from £651 million in 2020 to the current estimate of £715 million this year, driven by the additional work caused by the pandemic and the positive choices we have made to support people, including creating, increasing and extending our Scottish child payment. In setting out the timeline for delivery of the next phase of Scottish Government benefits, I would like again to pay tribute to the stakeholders' experience panels and officials and ministers in the Duck Parkment for Work and Pensions, with whom we work closely. It is no secret that the Scottish Government disagrees profoundly with the UK Government over several things, including its approach to many aspects of social security. However, by and large, those disagreements have not coloured co-operation on devolved social security matters, and I welcome that. I am pleased to be able to report that we agreed at the meeting of the joint ministerial group on 25 January that the timeline, as set out in the programme business case, is appropriate and achievable and that both Governments are committed to providing the resources that are required to ensure delivery. It is hard to overstate the importance and complexity of case transfer. It is equally as challenging as launching new benefits and is made more complex still by the age of the DWP's systems from which we are transferring people. Therefore, I am pleased to be able to confirm that we continue to make steady progress on the safe and secure transfer of 700,000 disability and carer cases from the DWP to Social Security Scotland and remain on track to complete the work by December 2025. I have to clarify considering some reports that have been today that we used to extend agency agreements annually, but we have now agreed to extend to the end of 2025 as we intend to complete case transfer. We have also created a three-month contingency to March 2026 for safety and safety reasons only, because, as I said, we remain on track to transfer disability and carer cases from the DWP to Social Security Scotland by December 2025. All of that makes it really important that we continue with our measured approach with the seamless, safe and secure transition of people's payments as a top priority. Our 14th Scottish Government benefit, which will replace and improve upon the UK Government's carers allowance, will be called carer support payment. That benefit will be launched in pilot phase by the end of 2023 ahead of national launch in spring 2024. I will set out more detail of our approach to carer support payment this spring when we publish our response to the extensive consultation undertaken last year on carer benefits. Our 15th benefit, pension age winter heating payment, will launch in winter 2024 replacing winter fuel payment. I am glad to say that we have now agreed a two-year extension of the social fund with the DWP as required for this to happen. In the autumn of 2024, we also plan to introduce the pilot of pension age disability payment, our 16th Scottish Government benefit, replacing the current UK Government attendance allowance. A national roll-out of this new benefit is scheduled for 2025. Finally on the timeline, in the next few months I intend to consult on the subject of employment injuries assistance and replacement of the current UK Government industrial injuries disablement benefits. I would like to acknowledge the work of MSPs and organisations who have an interest in this. Employee injuries assistance is a very complex area and it is important that we work with stakeholders to decide the right approach, recognising the limits on our devolved powers in relation to issues such as health and safety and employment law. We also need to recognise the substantial costs and operational requirements of a new benefit and the challenges of moving from what is an antiquated and entirely paper-based UK benefit. I am pleased to say that the DWP remains committed to working with us to agree an approach that is practicable, affordable and of course in the interests of people, including current recipients. It is right that we take appropriate time to consider this all thoroughly. As Audit Scotland also said about social security, the Scottish Government is preparing well for the next stages of delivery and managing the complex programme of work effectively. While doing so, we are ensuring continuous improvement of our systems and building the capability of social security Scotland. Those are absolutely fundamental requirements to ensuring that we continue to deliver for the people of Scotland and to keep to the principles of the social security act. This sort of work does not often capture the attention of the public and there is no reason why it should, but it is important that we recognise the huge amount of work that is required day in, day out to develop and then build on the strong foundations that we have achieved so far. In conclusion, we have limited powers over social security and a largely fixed budget, which has been shrinking in real terms due to rampant inflation. That and the practical realities obviously restrict what we are able to deliver. However, with pride and purpose, despite those limitations, we are delivering real and meaningful change through social security Scotland, helping more people in more ways and significantly uplifting incomes. We are doing it by putting into practice our shared commitment to treat people with dignity, fairness and respect, to deliver social security not just as a public service but as a common good and as a human right. It is in that spirit of service that I am pleased to open today's debate and to move the motion in my name. Thank you minister. I now call on Jeremy Balfour to speak to and move amendment 7805.1. Up to seven minutes please Mr Balfour. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and I am pleased to be speaking in this debate and will be happy to move a motion in my name. I would like to mention at the outset that I am disappointed that the Scottish Government chose not to furnish us with an updated business programme case until only one day ago. I think that we can all agree that it would be much more preferable if we could have had a reasonable amount of time to fully scrutinise this document before coming to the chamber to discuss it, accountability maybe not. In 2016 the people of Scotland were told that the Scottish Government will embark on a journey to create a uniquely Scottish social security system. They were promised that within a relatively short order and with relatives they would set up a system that would take over from a big bag, scary DWP and provide benefits to all those who need it in a manner that demonstrates dignity, fairness and respect. Well Deputy Presiding Officer, it is clear that years between then and now have clearly not been kind. Far from the sunlit uplands that we were promised, devolved benefits have been a mess of mis-dead lines, delayed payments and disappointment claimants. So let's have a look at the story so far. A story that has my amendment notes so that the Scottish Government is over budget, over time and is woefully under delivered. Let's take them one by one. At every level the Scottish Government has treated timelessly that they are committed to as if they are mere guidelines. The most recent example of this is a winter heating payment that has first become a spring heating payment. The payment that was due to be made in February in this year, however, as the ministers just confirmed, for some people will not be paid until March, means that many families will slip into need. I would just want to give Mr Balfour the opportunity to correct the record, because would he agree with me that I have always said that we will pay winter heating payment from February? The reason that we are paying from February is that we were only able to acquire the scan from the DWP on 31 January, despite requesting it at an earlier date. However, we understood the pressures on our colleagues at DWP and we are working together to deliver that important payment for more than 415,000 people in Scotland. I am afraid that I do not agree with the minister, because this is what the minister said at committee. To ensure that payments can begin in February, it is critical that DWP maintains its commitment to provide data to Social Security Scotland by 31 January to allow us to conclude our internal assurances for 400,000 records. The Scottish Government will once again try to blame the DWP for the delay. However, we cannot hide from the fact that the DWP handed over the required data that he negotiated and was happy with when he came to committee so that, in a fine time, we can get those delivered. That is what the minister said in December, that he is rewriting history. When did we hand over the data on 31 January to blame the delay like squarely at the feet of the Scottish Government? For the minister simply to put two sentences or even two words into his statement today shows how little he cares about the most vulnerable people here in Scotland. On a larger scale, we have seen further delays to the handover of devolved benefits. The BBC has reported today that the DWP will be delivering benefits in Scotland until 2026, six years after the original projected date of handover. I know at this point that this message is brought up by the same people that claim that they can set up a fully independent country in 18 months. The people of Scotland will not forgive those for what promises they have broken. However, not only does this Government have a problem with timescales, it seems to be incapable of sticking to a budget. The projected costs of setting up and running Social Security Scotland have been looned over the years. Running costs rose by 33 per cent or £65 million year-on-year between 2020 and 2021-22. That has only gone up as more benefits at some point will be devolved. In fact, Audit Scotland has estimated that the Scottish Government is going to have to find £760 million by 2026 if we continue on the current spending course. That is not a small amount of money. Finally, the Scottish Government's programme for social security has been one that has chronologically undelivered for the people of Scotland. The number of complaints received by Social Security Scotland has increased by more than 400 per cent since 2018. Claimants are unable to reach help. Chatlines have been broken down. People have given up because it simply is too backed up. People are having to wait four months for their disability payment application to be processed and some waiting six months for a decision. That is six months without vital aid for some of the most vulnerable people in our country, simply unacceptable. Many Scots living in the coldest places have missed out on cash this year to heat their homes. If Mr McPherson is admitted to the Social Security Committee, that is the case, particularly for those in the north of Scotland. It has also become clear from evidence taken at committee that Social Security Scotland is not gathered required data to properly evaluate its performance and providing benefits. Without the necessary data, how can the Parliament and other scrutinised bodies properly understand whether the agency is fulfilling its duties or not? Over time, over budget and delivered. The Scottish Government has made a mess and we have simply got to get the act together. The people of Scotland deserve better, and if they cannot get that, they should step aside and let someone else have a go. I now call on Pam Duncan-Glancy to speak to and move amendment 7805.2, up to six minutes please, Mr Duncan-Glancy. I also thank the Minister for Advanced Sight of the Business Case. The cost of living crisis is getting increasingly worse, making a functioning fast and effective social security system more important than ever before. The updated business case published today reaffirms that people in Scotland are dealing with a system that is not these things. In the handling of the new winter heating assistance payment, we can see that. The 415,000 people across Scotland eligible for these payments were told that they might be paid this month, but now that it could be next. The SNP negotiated the deadline with the DWP to transfer necessary data for payments to May, May and February. That deadline was met, but now the minister is saying that it could be in March. When you are struggling, every penny counts. When you are freezing and expecting money that does not come, it can throw everything up in the air. That is what this Government has done to hundreds of thousands of people who were relying on these payments. Saying that they would be paid this month or next is no use for people whose bills are piling up now. They cannot tell their energy supplier that they will pay February or March. The Government has lacked urgency on this from the offset. When people really needed them to act fast, the benefit it replaces recognised the urgency of action in cold weather and was paid within 14 days. Social security in Scotland was supposed to be fairer. Paying for a heating needed in the cold winter in March is not fair. I would like to ask if Pam Duncan-Glancy acknowledges that, on average, under the cold weather payments system, the UK Government system, on average about 180,000 to 5,000 people received that benefit, whereas the Scottish Government's winter heating payment is projected to support around 415,000 people, including many people in Glasgow who would not have received cold weather payments very often at all. Pam Duncan-Glancy? I thank the minister for that intervention and, as he will know as I responded in committee, the £1 a week, which is not going to scratch the surface. People will, I am sure, be grateful for that, but the bottom line is that 65,000 people, 65,000 people on the basis of temperatures in 2021-22 will lose out under this Government's process and proposed benefit. The devolution of this payment, as with others, was an opportunity to develop something new that would have a more significant impact on poverty and create a fairer system, but instead the Government has created a payment that Energy Action Scotland has said is worse for fuel poverty than the one that is replaced. Poor planning, disjointed communications and a lack of pace are common themes. The Scottish Government has done well to create a more positive narrative, but that is not enough. Under the surface payments are delayed, processes are failing and social security in Scotland is being propped up by the DWP because three quarters of benefits are still administered by them due to the Scottish Government delays. Last week, the UK Government agreed to extend existing agency agreements for carers allowance on PIP until 2025 and for other benefits, including industrial injuries payment, and I appreciate the update today, until 2026. In so doing, it was also clear that any further slippage would create significant delivery risk. That means that, for many, it will be nearly eight years after the devolution of benefits that it gets the new and improved system that devolution could offer and that it was promised. Even where the roll-out of benefits has begun, like with adult disability payment, there are problems. Devolution of social security could have consigned to history, degrading in arbitrary measures like the 20m and 50% rules, developed indicators that reflect the real experience of disabled people and delivered a rate of payment that reflects the real living cost for disabled people. Instead, the adequacy and eligibility is a mirror copy of the DWP. The consultation on that says that nothing about it will change in this parliamentary term. In the meantime, disabled people across this country are struggling to afford to charge essential medical equipment. They are not just being let down by a lack of ambition but by the lack of effectiveness, too. They are facing additional barriers when making claims because the system is not supporting them in the way that it was designed. In an answer to my parliamentary question in January, the Government told me that only 23 people had been referred from Social Security Scotland to voiceability, which holds a £20 million contract to provide independent advocacy. Voiceability themselves told the Social Justice and Social Security Committee that work to embed the offer of advocacy and information, systems, processes and training does now need to gather pace. Perhaps doing so and equipping people with the support they need when making applications would reduce the redetermination rates, which last year saw 86% of child disability payment applications awarded after decisions were overturned by review. That in a system that we were told would get the decision right first time. We were also told that it would be dignified and fair, yet Social Security Scotland is spending an undisclosed amount on a counter-surveillance team. One of the worst aspects of the DWP system is that people believe that it is spying on them, most likely those struggling the most in society. Just very quickly, would Pam Duncan-Glancy recall the session with Social Security Scotland on that committee in December, when it was made clear that the counter-fraud measures that we are taking are to make sure that Social Security Scotland is not a victim of organised crime? Does she not think that that is important? I thank the minister for that intervention, but we pressed on that question. I would be keen to understand more about the evidence that the minister has of international organised crime trying to claim benefits from the Scottish Social Security System that that is a significant enough risk to put money into a counter-surveillance team, so I would appreciate any information that we can have on that. That is one of the worst aspects of the DWP system, and now it is being used here. Social Security Scotland should be going as directly into people's pockets as possible, but unfortunately a lot is being spent on fixing systems, including the IT system. Delays and poor planning from ministers have also created a system that is slow and not functioning as it should be, which is leading to operational costs fan exceeding the Government's initial spending commitment. Even worse, the Fiscal Commission has said that without proper tools and techniques to publish data, Social Security Scotland is limiting its ability to accurately forecast spend. What we do with the money that we have is crucial. By not managing it properly, money that should be going to people is not, and people are being led up a hill on a false promise of better security while other budgets are being raided to cover the shortfall, stripping resources from other areas that can help to keep people off benefits. The SNP is afraid of missed opportunities and wasted resources. It cannot account for how it will pay for things in a few years' time, and it is overspending on projects, under-delivering on services and overseeing a system of chaos. That is not fast-functioning or effective. That is what people were promised, and so now, in a time of unprecedented cost of living crisis, the Government must do better. Give people in Scotland the Social Security system that they have waited for for too long and that they deserve. The transfer of the Social Security powers in the Smith agreement after the referendum was a significant moment. It was the first time that powers had been disentangled from the UK apparatus into the Scottish Government scene. Unlike other devolved powers that were already devolved in the Scottish Office, that was a significant step. It was ambitious. It was the first time that it happened. It was up to a £3 billion budget, with several different benefits involved. We supported that. We supported the measures that we wanted to work in partnership with the Government on dignity, fairness and respect. We thought that it was important when we set up a new welfare system that all parties worked together to try and achieve something better for the country. Expectations, I have to say, were high, partly because of the expectations that the Government set. They contrasted, quite starkly, not unreasonably, with the UK Government system and tried to make those significant ambitions a reality. Then I think that reality struck. Reality struck about how difficult those things were going to be. First of all, the delay of the transfer of the powers. In order to get it right, as the minister said at the time, that this was necessary. We are, as Pam Duncan Glancy said, potentially leading to eight years after it was first promised that some of the powers will be transferred. However, the system has not been managed well, I am afraid to say. The waiting for up to six months for your adult disability payment, no matter how complex the case is, is really unacceptable. I got a message this week from Social Security Scotland that said that some disability benefit decisions are taking longer than we would like. The majority of people will receive a decision within four months. Originally, it was promised that it was going to be two to two and a half months. Now, the majority will receive within four months. I will take an intervention. Thank you, Mr Rennie, for taking the intervention and to build on my answer to his intervention on me at this point. I think that it is important to recognise that that piece of correspondence would have also said, although processing times vary from a few weeks in many, many cases and a small proportion of very complex cases when additional evidence is required have taken longer. We are working to improve that. Willie Rennie. Still, a majority will have to wait four months. When it was expected, it was going to be two to two and a half months. I do not think that the minister should brush this aside too quickly, because I am worried about what other benefits are going to be impacted in this way. The child payment is going to be incredibly important, as the Government has rightly said. It is going to be really important for tackling child poverty. Those ambitions are set out, the targets are very clear, the dates are not that far away, and if there is any slippage in this payment, it is going to be difficult to meet those targets. It would be helpful to have absolute assurances from the minister that he has learnt the lesson from the adult disability payment, that we are not going to have a repeat with the child payment and its roll-out, because it is significant numbers that it is going to, and we do not want to be back here. We have seen the problems and I have heard the explanation for the winter heating payment. I understand what the minister said about it from February. I get that, but there was an expectation that it was going to be in February. When you raise an expectation with people who are paying their bills now, many of them with pre-payment meters who are desperate for their money right now, building those expectations means that people's confidence are crushed when those expectations are not met. I hope that the minister is able to deal with this in his summing up, that we are not going to be back here with the child payment, because the consequences are not just for Government priorities and targets, but it is also the reality for people in poverty today. Mr Rennie, we will now move to the open debate. There are speeches of up to four minutes. I call Paul MacLennan to be followed by Oliver Mundell. The Social Security Scotland Act 2018 and its first words lay out the Scottish security principles. Social security is an investment in the people of Scotland. It is a human right and essential to the realisation of other human rights. The delivery of social security is a public service with respect for the dignity of individuals at its heart, and it will contribute to reducing poverty in Scotland and is designed with the people of Scotland-based on evidence. It then went on to say that opportunities will be sought to continuously improve the Scottish security system in ways that put the needs of those who require assistance first and advance equality and non-discrimination. Finally, the Scottish security system is to be efficient and deliver value for money. Everything that we do in our Parliament in regard to social security should be guided by those principles. Social security is a demand-led service, and Scotland does not have the fiscal flexibilities that other countries have, and that is a built-in disadvantage. I remember Labour Party members of committee voting against the principle of additional borrowing powers for social security in Scotland. In February 2020, the social security programme business case—I have only got four minutes, I am not going to take an intervention, I am sorry—provided a view on the whole life costs and benefits of the Scottish Government's social security programme over a 30-year timeframe to 2050. The five-case model clearly explains its strategic context, rationale, socioeconomic considerations, commercial considerations and financial information, as well as the management structures that are necessary to deliver social security benefits for the people of Scotland. The PBC ensures that decision making is robust and value for money assured, and I will touch on that later on. The update that we are talking about today is based on those practices. Since the unanimous passing of the 2018 Social Security Act, the Scottish Government has introduced 12 benefits, seven of which are entirely new forms of financial support available only in Scotland. We should remember that. That is the context that we are talking about in this debate. The Scottish Government, as I said, is doing all that it can with limited powers and a fixed budget. The UK Government must do more to fix the deeply flawed and adequate UK social security system. I want to talk about the social security system that I mentioned earlier on. The social security budget allocation shows the strength of commitment towards building a future-proof Scottish acoustic system with dignity, fairness and respect at its heart. In line with Scottish special commission forecasts, the Scottish Government has set to invest £5.2 billion in benefits expenditure in 2023-24, providing support to more than 1 million people. In 27-28, the forecast has increased to £7.3 billion, money that will go directly to people who need it most. Thanks to Scottish Government decisions, people living in Scotland have access to a range of social security benefits that go significantly beyond what is provided in other parts of the UK. What has not been mentioned today, all benefits will be upgraded by 10.1 per cent, the September rate of CPI in April 2023, at a cost of £430 million. The Scottish child payment is the most ambitious poverty reduction measure in the UK. The Scottish child payment is now £25 per week, a rise of 150 per cent in less than eight months, with a cost of £442 million. I heard Jeremy Balfour's speech and I have to remember that it took me back to the time that I sat and watched Tory MPs sitting in silence when we discussed universal credit cuts and the impact that would have on every single constituency in Scotland in silence. The Scottish Government has a clear and achievable delivery of timetable for future benefits based on what has been learned so far, including during the pandemic. In May 2022, it was found that the Scottish Government had responded well to challenges prevented by the Covid-19 pandemic and adapted ways of working, including replanning, to deliver major new benefits despite the unprecedented disruption of the pandemic. That is the largest delivery programme in transfer of powers under devolution. The Scottish Government does not underestimate the skill of the work that needs to be done next. The Scottish Government is working jointly across the Social Security programme and Social Security Scotland to address the remainder of the recommendations with clear actions developed and under way. That will be a key factor for the plans for the remaining benefits. I have sat through far too many debates and contributions from those on the Government benches in this Parliament, where it has been suggested that all aspects of welfare policy and its delivery are easy, that there are no difficult decisions to be made and that more money must be found. As my colleague Jeremy Balfour and other members have already spoken about, who can forget the promises made to people of Scotland back in 2016? We were led to believe that if only those powers were in SNP ministers' hands, that all would be well. As is so often the case from this nationalist Government, the rhetoric does not even come close to matching the reality. Today's tone, whether it be from the minister or from SNP-backed benches, shows exactly the problem, because rather than admit that they have failed, they tend to tell us that everything is still all right, that there is no problem and that people should just be patient. However, I am not going to take an intervention as your own backbenchers have shown four minutes is very tight time. Rather than delivering a radical departure from the culture and practices of the DWP—a point well made by Pam Duncan-Glancy whilst I might disagree with her—it is the mismatch between that rhetoric and the reality. At best, what we have seen is more of the same under a different logo, and at worst, we see completely avoidable delays. Real people let down by a Government more interested in grabbing the headlines with flagship policies than delivering in a real and meaningful way. Today's debate is an example. A Government minister and a Government serious about having a grown-up debate would have sought to work across the Parliament and give a reasonable amount of time for the programme business case to be tested and scrutinised. It speaks to the same SNP knows best until it does not approach that I have already touched upon. This is a Government that does not want to be questioned and which ultimately believes at its own hype. If the shoe was on the other foot, you can guarantee that it would not be so accepting of the same practices from the UK Government. Nor would they believe the excuses, especially when it comes to data. There are a lot of areas of concern, but maybe in closing, the minister can start by explaining to me and my constituents where the SNP will find the £760 million needed to fund the welfare policies by 2026. Audit Scotland is right to sound the alarm bells, and many of my constituents will see that as the inevitable consequence of the SNP's failure to be honest with people about the costs of their welfare policies and who will end up funding them. Of course, we all want to see support there for those who need it most, but we cannot pretend that there are unlimited funds. Likewise, it would be good to hear the minister's thoughts on the rising running costs of Social Security Scotland. Where will this end? Does he really believe that the organisation is providing value for money? People across Scotland deserve a Government that makes good on its promises. They expect a Government at the very least willing to hold its hands up and admit where things have not gone as well as it hopes. They want a Government that not only believes in dignity and fairness and speaks up for it in this chamber, but one that lives up to those ideals in practice. At present, we cannot say with any confidence that this is what we have. Instead, we have a Scottish Government that simply brushes off concerns and makes excuses. After years of hiding behind the DWP, they themselves have been found wanting and have massively under-delivered while at the same time overspending. I welcome the chance to contribute to this debate on the social security business case, which will provide a record investment of £5.2 billion in benefit expenditure in 2023-24. That is an investment in our people and that is something that this Scottish Government should be proud of. It is also great to hear the minister set out the next steps in building our social security programme. I have no doubt that the steps that we are taking in Scotland are making an impact on our aim of tackling poverty. However, we do this under the most difficult circumstances, a global pandemic followed by one of the hardest costs of living crises that we have ever seen. Energy bills are through the roof, the price of everyday items are eye-watering and interest rates are soaring. People who were struggling before are finding life even harder. With a rise in in-work poverty, many have found themselves in a position that they may never have thought they would be in. The creation of Scotland's social security system was a mammoth task and one that I do not underestimate. Breaking away from the DWP system was always going to be difficult, but Scotland has made great progress and I am proud of the way that this has been carried out. We may have differing views in this chamber, but it cannot be denied that this is a fairer system and an investment in our people. The Scottish child payment has been groundbreaking, and whether it is speaking to friends and family, constituents or taking evidence in the social justice and social security committee, we know that it is making a real difference to people's lives. I know that we would like to see this go further, of course, but I am acutely aware of the limitations on the Scottish budget. It is a testimony to our priorities that this was raised to £25. The Scottish child payment is putting food in the mouth of children and taking stress away from parents. If that is not a success of the Scottish welfare system, then I do not know what is. Of course, we could always do more. Under the current circumstances, it would take hundreds of extra pounds into people's pockets to truly tackle the issues that people are facing. In Scotland, at least we can say that that is what we are trying to do, with seven of the 12 new Scottish benefits being entirely new forms of financial support that are available only in Scotland. I note the comments that I have heard on the winter heating payment, and I find it really disappointing. I will admit—and the minister is certainly aware—that I have concerns about the new payment. However, let us be clear here. In winter 2021-22, only 11,000 people benefited from the DWP's unreliable cold weather payment. In Scotland, 415,000 people are set to benefit this year. As I said with the Scottish child payment, of course, I would like to see us go further, but where can that money be taken from? I will take the intervention. I am grateful to the member for taking the intervention. Would she agree with me that there was at least a perception among the people that we talked to that the benefit would be paid in February and not after February? That was what people expected to happen. As I am aware, I understand that some people will receive the money in February, and I think that the minister was pretty clear that it was from February. I find some of the arguments that we have heard here today to be quite disingenuous. The opposition knows the difficulties that we are facing and the lack of fiscal flexibilities that this Government has. The projected costs for social security are set to rise in the coming years, and that is something that we will have to deal with. However, that was always going to happen. You cannot welcome the Scottish child payment on one hand and then criticise the Government for the increase in expenditure over the coming years. I am proud of the system that we have built here in Scotland. Charities—I am sorry, I do not have any further time—charities, organisations and local people are all extremely positive about the way social security is being rolled out, whether that is the ethos of the whole delivery, the priority of ensuring that people are receiving everything that they are entitled to, or the ambition to make the system work for people. To close, the Tory UK Government can charge on with bumping up energy bills, food prices, continue to soar in debt, pain, misery and anxiety that are all racking up for people in Scotland that need our help the most. However, I believe that the system that we have created so far is good evidence of the priorities and aims of an independent Scotland. While I hear the size from the opposition when we raise the matter of independence, we cannot deny that full borrowing powers and control over our own affairs could benefit this country. Thank you, Ms Donne. I now call Rhoda Grant to be followed by James Donne and Rhoda Grant for up to six minutes, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. That was a speech that finished with the Scottish Government again calling for more powers, yet when they get them, they hand them straight back. It is truly unbelievable that, again today, we are hearing about further delays in implementing the Scottish social security system, a system that was devolved in 2018. We will now have to wait until at least 2026 for it to be fully delivered by the Scottish Government. That is almost a decade late. The winter heat and payment that the Scottish Government claims is imminent was intended to be rolled up out 2022-23, and we are in February 2023. Hopefully, the worst of the winter is behind us, and yet people are still waiting for that payment. This new benefit will pay a fixed sum of £50 instead of paying out £25 for every week of cold weather, which was the amount that was paid out by the benefit that it repraces. I am particularly concerned about the fact that the policy will have on rural areas. We know that the rate of fuel poverty is significantly higher in rural areas, which are largely off-gas grid compared with more urban areas of Scotland. I wonder what her view is on the fact that Orkney, Shetland and Wick did not receive cold weather payments at all last time around, and it has been very rare that others such as the Western Isles receive anything when those are the areas that we both represent with the highest levels of fuel poverty. Those are the areas that are going to lose out by this payment, where they would have received £25 for each week of cold weather. They are going to receive £50 as a whole, regardless of the weather. Even before the cost of living crisis, those living in rural areas faced up to 30 per cent higher costs of living. It will be much greater now because of heating costs that was based on figures back in 2021, when 40 per cent of people living in the Western Isles lived in fuel poverty compared to 13 per cent in East Wrenfrewshire. It is an average of 24 per cent of all households in Scotland that suffer fuel poverty. When you are looking at 40 per cent in the Western Isles compared to 24 per cent in the rest of Scotland, you see how that differs. Yet each and every one will receive £50 towards their fuel bill under this new policy. It is a policy that will cost my constituents hundreds of pounds a year, and they are the people most in need. Our weather is inclement, and temperatures drop lower in the north of Scotland. Therefore, the very places that have the highest fuel poverty will lose the most. Energy Action Scotland has warned that lives will be lost due to the inadequate level of support provided. We have already experienced a period of unseasonably early snow and ice over a number of weeks. My constituents are already losing out in the face of soaring fuel prices. As Pam Duncan Glancy said, Energy Action Scotland also raised the concern that the new payment will have less impact on fuel poverty than the benefit it replaces. It is desperately sad that the Tories' cold weather payment is more socially just than the SNP Green Government's low-income winter heating assistance. It is also ridiculous that the SNP Green Scottish Government took money from the home insulation schemes to cover the cost of a social security system that is failing to deliver adequate winter heating payments to those in fuel poverty. That is again down to incompetence. The only scheme that they are ever able to devise is based on one simple tick box. They are incapable of developing schemes at work. We look back at the agricultural payment scheme and check our heads that made of that and yet they have learned nothing. The poor design of their social security system has led to a 400 per cent increase in complaints from the public. Due to their incompetence, they have had to hand back numerous benefits to the UK Government to run on their behalf, but they have no say how those benefits will be delivered. In this brave new world of SNP Green Government, her disabled people are still left with a discredited 20-metre test under the Scottish Government's agency agreement, and that will run until 2025. I wonder if the member, if things are going so badly, which I disagree with her with, why did the Social Security Directorate and Social Security Scotland win the Campbell Christy Holyrood award last year? I am not blaming the civil servants and blaming the Government for their mismanagement. It seems very unfair that this Government points the finger at others. If their winning prize is in the face of this Government, I can only pay tribute to them. Of course, the costs are out of control. This is a Government that can't build a ferry on budget, so how would we expect them to deliver a Social Security system on budget? Shouldn't be a surprise. Their track record speaks for itself. Take the fiscal framework that doesn't work for Scotland negotiated by the SNP, a health service with record waiting times, a world educational rankings toppling under this Government. They are failing Scotland, but it is doubly failing our most vulnerable people. It is a long past time that this Government focused on the needs of the Scottish people, but sadly they are letting down the most vulnerable. I thank all the staff, officials and ministers involved for their hard work and dedication in establishing Social Security Scotland, and their continuing commitment to the development and roll-out of existing and new benefits for the people of Scotland. Today's motion reflects their hard work. I echo the balanced tone of today's motion, recognising the UK Government's contribution to the joint programme of delivery of Scottish Government benefits and that the commitment of both Governments will be required to deliver the programme business case. Unfortunately, I was disappointed, if not surprised, at the Labour and Tory amendments table today. No recognition of the hundreds of staff working tirelessly to ensure successful delivery or the many successes of those bespoke to Scotland. I have just heard a rant from Rhoda Grant there about how the SNP is to blame for everything that happened, but there is no recognition from the Unionist parties of the Scottish Government's acknowledgement that future delivery will need continued close working between Scottish and UK Governments. Surely there had something I would have imagined that Rhoda Grant and others would have wanted to highlight, but none of that and nothing constructive is to future delivery. What a day when both Scottish and UK Governments understand the need to work together, but here in the Scottish Parliament, as usual, the opposition parties offer nothing. So if they can't or won't remember, let me remind them that the agency Social Security Scotland was only established in 2018 and has since delivered a number of benefits successfully, despite the complexities involved in decoupling existing UK-wide benefits in the introductions of a new one. First, the carers allow a supplement and increase of 13 per cent in the UK equivalent, surely a success. Then they introduced the best start grant pregnancy and baby payment, offering £600 on the birth of the first child and £300 for any subsequent children and an improved and increased benefit, replacing the UK Stewards that maternity grant, another success. Of course, the most ambitious poverty reduction measure in the UK, the Scottish child payment, which is likely to lift 50,000 children out of poverty in 2023-24. The city of Glasgow alone over 22,000 children have benefited from this. In any other world, this would be a huge success, and the eyes of the opposition say they're not good enough or where is the money coming from. These are only a few examples of the benefits that have been successfully delivered since 2018. We should be proud of these achievements and give credit with credit as due, rather than continuing to talk Scotland down as the opposition seem to be intent on doing. Of course we can't rest here, we must continue to develop the system for the benefit of the people of Scotland. And we will. It's a complex process in ensuring successful delivery must remain a priority, far better to take time, surely, than rushed forward before already. This is only practical in something that I would have thought, no hope, to be honest, of possessing parties with both recognising support. So, despite the complexities involved in disruptions such as the Covid-19 pandemic, it's important to recognise how positively the Scottish Government has responded to these challenges. The Audit Scotland report has been mentioned before, but, as I said, the Scottish Government has responded well to the challenges presented by the Covid-19 pandemic and adapted ways of working, including replanning, to deliver major new benefits despite the unprecedented disruption of the pandemic. Also, the Scottish Government has worked closely with DWP and other delivery stakeholders to agree in ambitious but deliverable timetable for launching their many devolved benefits in completing case transfer, including ensuring things for development and scrutiny of necessary legislation. This is the sensible approach and the right approach. And just before I conclude, Presiding Officer, can I just say that my memory of the aim was to get things out in February, but that some of the payments might not be out to March because of the late delivery understandable from the DWP. I do not think that committee members should be misleading the Parliament in the statements that it made today. In conclusion, Presiding Officer, the benefits of today's delivery programmes will be felt for generations, so we need to get it right. I believe that we are, and that is why I support today's motion and reject the amendments that fail to recognise this, the hard work of everyone involved and the ambition for the future. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Dornan. I now call Maggie Chapman to be followed by Emma Roddick up to four minutes, Ms Chapman. Thank you, Presiding Officer. The old adage that you would not start from here applies, I think, to the social security system that we are trying to create in Scotland. Over a decade of austerity, the two-child limit or so-called rate clause, the benefits cap, cuts to universal credit, each of these and so many more decisions taken or policies implemented by the UK Government make for a pretty bleak foundation on which to build our social security system. No, we would not choose to start with the uncertain foundation that the UK Government has created. That is because we want our social security system to support individuals and build the common good, to help create strong communities, thriving families and healthy, confident, informed and compassionate children. However, we are where we are and in such circumstances I think it is right to acknowledge the level of investment in our Scottish social security system and how this is interacting with and mitigating some of the worst effects of the UK Government's austerity regime. Of course, that regime goes way beyond social security, the cost crisis and high inflation, increasing wealth inequalities. I acknowledge the significant changes and improvements that we have in Scotland today, as outlined by the motion that we have before us. Is it perfect? Of course not. Do we still have work to do? Of course we do. I also think that it is important to highlight what the motion does not say. The increase in total expenditure comprises mostly, 81 per cent of it, of upgraded payments to older people and disabled adults, increasing by £642 million and the Scottish child payment, increasing by £216 million. That increase to Scottish child payment spending reflects increasing the weekly payment from £20 to £25 and extending the age limit. Modelling suggests that it could lift around 50,000 children out of poverty in 2023-24. Do I wish that we could do more and do it more quickly? Yes, of course I do. However, I am proud of the role that Scottish Greens have played in ensuring that we mitigate some of the worst excesses of the UK Government's cruel targeting of those in need, like the uplift of the Scottish child payment and the benefits cap mitigation measures. On the adult disability payment and personal independent payment, there is considerable uncertainty about how much the transfer of recipients from the DWP to SSS and the elimination of exclusionary eligibility-proving processes will cost in total. In 2023-24, the Scottish Fiscal Commission forecasts that spending on child and adult disability payments will be at least £171 million above the funding received from the UK Government for the devolution of PIP and ADP. There are other issues that make it harder to deliver what we would wish to deliver. The double onslaught of a UK-driven cost crisis and the failure of the UK Government to adequately fund staffing in health and social care are key drivers in the estimated difference between what money we get from the UK Government and how much the Scottish Government is choosing to spend, given the numbers of people who depend on social security. That essentially translates into a pressure on our budget that is forecast to intensify significantly over time. In 2023-24, the total social security blockground adjustment is forecast to increase by £657 million. At the same time, spending on new payments and benefits with a BGA increases by £1057 million. The difference between the spending and the BGA funding is forecast to increase from £374 million this year to £776 million next year. Again, that reflects the difference between the inclusive Scottish and the exclusionary UK approaches, but it also further highlights the double onslaught that I mentioned earlier. Pressure on public services is intensifying across the board in large part because of the UK-driven cost crisis. We are making progress with Scottish social security despite those profound pressures. Of course, we still have work to do to deliver what I and others want—a social security system that is an integral feature of a welfare state contributing to the sustaining of a wellbeing economy. I need to conclude, Ms Chapman, that we are expressed to all those who are helping us to deliver this. We are short of time. I will have to ask members to stick to their speaking allocations. I call Emma Roddick to be followed by Megan Gallagher for around four minutes. Earlier, Jeremy Balfour invited us to look at the story so far. I am going to do just that. 12 benefits have been introduced 13 later this month by a new progressive social security agency, one that treats benefit claimants with dignity, fairness and respect instead of suspicion and disdain. Seven of those benefits are only available in Scotland. The Scottish Child Payment and Best Start grants are already playing a huge part in tackling child poverty by providing parents with financial support that they have complete control over what to do with. Those unique benefits show very clearly what the priorities of this Government are, tackling child poverty and the cost of living crisis. I would say that it takes longer to do things right, but looking at the DWP's efforts on universal credit, which is still being rolled out full of faults over 10 years since the legislation that brought it in, that is possibly not true. However, it is worth us doing this right. It is worth us listening to the disabled people who said that they would rather be treated with respect, would rather be able to rely on payments, would rather that the system that administers benefits is compatible with the Government later deciding to upgrade benefits, rather than the RK system that the DWP has, which, according to claims by UK Government ministers, does not allow them to increase payments if they want to. I am sorry, I do not have time. It is worth noting that many long processing times are due to the fact that Social Security Scotland has taken a lot of the life admin burden off of applicants and it is seeking to gather evidence when the applicant has not been able to get it themselves. That is going above and beyond, and I am sure that it is appreciated by those who are making use of it, those who would previously have been completely precluded from accessing benefits like that. We have to, of course, look forward at what is yet to be achieved, as well as what already has been. I know of many constituents who will be reassured by the update on both carer support payment and pension age disability timescales. I have already been contacted by multiple people who do not want to face dealing with the DWP and applying for attendance allowance, which is a position that I sincerely understand as someone who has experienced humiliating and degrading assessment by external assessors that the DWP contracted. Having seen how welcome the changes brought in with child disability payment and adult disability payment have been and what a difference it makes to have these benefits administered by an agency that values the dignity of those who apply and values the lives and experiences of them, those who are speaking to me are looking forward to the 14th and 15th benefits that will be delivered. I had the real pleasure of visiting my own local delivery team for the Highlands at the end of last year and I was really pleased to hear about the culture that staff are working within. People at all levels of the organisation told me that they felt that their concerns were listened to and that their suggestions were valued by leadership. There are, of course, things to be worked on and improved upon, but what a difference it makes in being able to address issues when everyone involved is willing to listen and willing to make changes when needed. There have been a lot of issues aired today and I am sure that we will discuss in Social Justice, Social Security Committee and probably again in this chamber those who need attention. More than that, though, I hope that the message that our constituents hear loud and clear from this debate today is that the Scottish Government and Social Security Scotland are both working hard to make their experience of claiming benefits as easy and painless as possible. I hope that my constituents hear the minister say that he wants people to feel the dignity, fairness and respect that has been built into the social security system. I hope that that is the takeaway and I hope that colleagues in whatever party will work with their local delivery teams to spread that information to constituents about what is available to them and how they can access it. Thank you, Presiding Officer. During the lead-up to the 2014 referendum, the SNP boasted that they could set up a fully independent state within a mere 18 months. Following the referendum, when the clear majority voted to remain in the United Kingdom, the Scotland Act set out a route map to devolve more powers to Hollywood. Those changes included an additional 11 welfare powers worth £3 billion. That accounted for roughly 15 per cent of social security spending in Scotland. Considering the SNP's highly critical stance over the current system for administering benefits in the United Kingdom, that was their big opportunity to look at a new approach when setting up Social Security Scotland. However, it seems like this Government has one talent—a talent for making an absolute mess of every single area of devolved competency, or in the case of this Government, devolved incompetency. The SNP was full of grand promises that the Scottish benefit system would be fully operational by the end of the 2021 parliamentary term, but that did not happen. Instead, Scotland has had to endure years, whereby benefits are being kicked back and forward between Hollywood and Westminster. Adding further embarrassment to the SNP Government, they have now handed back the severe disabling allowance to the DWP because, according to the former Social Security Secretary, there would be no advantage to Social Security Scotland delivering it. It is clear to everyone that this Government did not have the right mechanisms in place, and that to me is a scary thought considering the thought that we are going to win in 2014. At one point during the independence referendum campaign, Alex Salmond boldly claimed that it would only cost £200 million to set up in independent Scotland. Yet setting up Social Security Scotland has already cost the public purse £651 million. It is obvious that their 18-month fully independent Scotland claims were clearly pie-in-the-sky thinking, just like their current plans to hold another referendum. It is not only the handover of devolved powers that has led to another failed promise of the SNP Government. Since its implementation, Social Security Scotland has performed poorly, with waiting times for applications increasing and payments not being made on time. Whether it is less than half of the people aided by the Fair Start Scotland scheme, sustaining employment or applications processing times increasing year-on-year for best start foods, it is concerning that the SNP seems totally incapable of getting to grips with those new welfare systems. More recently, MSPs were told that the one-time heating payment could now be delayed until March. The question that I must ask is, what on earth is this Government doing? It is certainly not focusing on the creation of a benefit system that supports Scots. The SNP needs to urgently explain how it intends to fix the mess that it has created and how new and expanded benefits will be funded on top of its increasing demand. I believe in devolution. I was only seven years old when this Parliament opened, and I grew up in a country that has the advantages of having two Parliaments. However, the SNP is making a mockery of devolved Government by not being able to get the basic rights. I believe that the ability to support those in need is a vital role for any Government. If the SNP continues to make a mess of the roll-out of social security Scotland, it will make a mockery of the Scotland act and this Parliament. Crucially, the failure of the SNP Government to get this right will have let down the thousands of Scots who rely on those benefits, and that, Presiding Officer, would be shameful. Thank you, Ms Gallacher. We now move to the final speaker in the open debate, Bob Doris, again, up to four minutes, Mr Doris. Thank you, Presiding Officer. As a previous convener of this Parliament's Social Security Committee, one of my most memorable experiences was a visit to meet with the civil service team task of delivering the IT and wider delivery systems that underpin Scotland's ambition to embed a nimble, modern and progressive social security system in place. I was left in no doubt over the complexities involved, as well as regarding the clear competence of the team that they had to deliver those tasks. Something that we have not often heard this moment this evening, this afternoon rather, from Opposition speakers. In Audit Scotland in May last year, it said that the very first sentence in the report on social security in Scotland is, the Scottish Government has continued to successfully deliver new and complex social security benefits in challenging circumstances. You would not know that, to listen to Opposition speakers here this afternoon. They are detached from reality. With 12 social security benefits now up and running, and with a 13th now imminent, the Scottish winter heating payment, I want to take time to congratulate the delivery team who have brought us to this stage, not to disparage them, if some have done in this place this afternoon. We should remember that our social security act was only passed in 2018. The pace of delivery and achievement has been remarkable. As we look set to deliver £5.2 billion in benefits expenditure in 2023-24 to over 1 million citizens. The Scottish social security payment, which has understandably attracted the most attention, has been the Scottish child payment, rightly so. Let us not forget the ask of campaigners. I remember the ask of campaigners when that payment was first discussed. It was £5 per week. Our Scottish Government, the SNP Scottish Government, is now delivering £25 per week to 387,000 eligible children and annual investment of £442 million. In doing so, it could lift up to 50,000 children out of poverty, as Willie Rennie noted. I have no doubt that the UK Tory cost of living crisis would have pushed even more families deep into poverty if it was not for Scotland's groundbreaking Scottish child payment. However, we are currently in the process of undertaking one of the most challenging aspects of our new social security system here in Scotland, and that is the safe, secure and reliable transfer of those adults on pit over to adult Scottish disability payments. Of course, new claimants can currently apply direct for that payment. We are open for applications. It will be more dignified, will be more humane. Of course, we have to speed up the process as best we can also. However, I want to talk about a constituent who is in the process of transferring from PIP to the new Scottish disability benefit. In December 2022, they decided to contact DWP as their mobility had significantly deteriorated. They wanted to be assessed for the mobility component up until that point that they had not applied for that. However, the DWP informed my constituent that, as his benefit was to be transferred to the new Scottish system, he could not apply. My constituent has been informed that transfer will take place on 13 April this year, and that, given that there is an opt-in 18-week wait for DWP to assess for the mobility component, that he will not be given a reassessment under DWP. He will have to wait until he is transferred. The constituent must apply for the mobility component after his PIP has been transferred successfully and securely on 13 April 2023 to Social Security Scotland. Minister, if there is another three months after that before he is able to be reassessed, we could be looking at six, seven or eight months from where my constituent rather first said to DWP that his mobility is deteriorating and that he would like to consider for the mobility component. I have no idea whether Social Security Scotland is able to flag that up in its systems or whether it will pass from DWP to ensure that its benefit can be backdated to December last year, because it should not lose out because of the safe, secure and stable transition of benefits in the year. I would be welcome to take account of my constituent's case so that I can update it in the best way forward. Thank you very much, Mr Doris. We now move to closing speeches, and I call Pam Duncan-Grancy for up to six minutes. I would like to start by thanking members across the chamber for the contributions. I understand the concerns that have been raised and the heaviness of heart that I can hear from some of the SNP benches when they hear some criticism of what is happening. I believe that this Parliament, when it set out to devolve social security benefits, did so in a way that it believed that we could create a system here that would work for the people of Scotland. I would also like to say a massive thank you to the organisations working across Scotland today, tirelessly, to campaign for that better social security system. I thought that Willie Rennie's contribution was spot on when he highlighted that everyone's expectations when we devolved social security in Scotland were high. They were, and I have to say that they still are. I believe that the situation that has been outlined that we have heard about today can be turned around. That is why I will not apologise for pressing the Government to do more faster and to plan properly, because that is about lives, it is about paying bills, it is about meeting extra costs and lifting people from poverty. We have an opportunity to do that here in Scotland. We should seize it. Members noted the difference between this Government's approach and the Tories, and I acknowledge those differences. The language, the narrative, the differing options for assessment and better roles for recipients, own doctors and supports. There are others that we have heard, including from Bob Dorris in the speech that he has just given. Contrasting, of course, with the increasingly hostile environment and benefits from this Tory Government, one that I believe that most colleagues, even on the benches opposite, would probably not wish to associate too closely. However, the bar for a benefits system cannot be and should not be the one that we are seeing from this Tory Government. I understand Bob Dorris and James Dornan's frustration and others when they are highlighting Government successes and challenging those of us who want it to be better. However, I would press them on the examples that they have used. I am not sure that carers thought that not getting their carers allowance doubled. Carers allowance assistance doubled after being told that they would was a success, or that waiting until halfway through the next decade for changes to the rules for that benefits is a success. I think that the families with over six-year-olds who had to wait two years for their payments will think that the system is a huge success, either. It is possible that two things can be true. A well-intentioned intervention can be well-intentioned, but it can also not be well delivered. That is what is happening here. This is not talking Scotland down. This is talking the truth. It is because I want life in Scotland to talk Scotland up, that I care so much about getting it right. On the safe and secure transfer that I heard members, including Emma Roddick and others, mention, members of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee will remember, hearing from civil society organisations, that disabled people might not have prioritised safe and secure transfer if they thought it would mean getting no more money or being left with the DWP until halfway through the next decade. Yes, we on these benches and others across the chamber can recognise success, and I have said several times where I think that the Government has it right. I pay tribute to the civil servants who are working tirelessly on this, but they too are fed up, and I know that because I have spoken to them in recent days. Natalie Don expressed disappointment at concern from our benches about spend, so I say to Natalie Don that if the money was going directly into people's pockets, I would not be complaining about it, but it is not. Significant sums are going to an IT system that is overspent and under-delivering and an advocacy project that is not reaching the people it should. Those are my concerns. People want and expect more, and so they should. I believe that we all believe that. Natalie Don. When I made that point, I was referring specifically to the Scottish child payment, which I would argue is money that is going directly into people's pockets, would the member not agree? I would agree, and I welcome that. We called on the Government, along with other activists and campaigners across Scotland, to double that and to increase the payment so that it could help mitigate the poverty that children experience. I have said that we welcome that payment in the past. My argument about the money that we are spending is that we are also spending money in ways that absolutely means that that money could be going. £39 million additional expenditure on an IT system because we did a minimum viable product rather than a fully functioning IT system. That could have been going into people's pockets, and it is not. Those are the concerns that I have. The minister said that it is with pride and purpose that it will continue with the programme, and I hope so. I really do, because I believe in the most part that the intentions of the minister are good. We just really must make them a reality, and I hope that that will come for the people of Scotland sooner rather than later. Thank you, Mr Duncan Glancy, and I call Miles Briggs for up to seven minutes. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Like Pam Duncan-Glancy, I'll maybe start my closing speech with regard to Willie Rennie's speech in this debate today, because I think that he did do a very fair and honest assessment of where we find ourselves today. I do actually believe that the minister is one of the more thoughtful ministers in this Government, but after 16 years in office, what we've heard today has been the usual SNP and Green same difference, I suppose, press office lines of blame Westminster, blame the DUP. We've also heard the lines of everyone's talking Scotland down, and we're using Social Security Scotland staff. We're not praising them. SNP and Green members want to use them as a human shield in this case, but we need to rise above that and look towards what needs to be a system that delivers for the people of Scotland. I've said this in every single debate since being given this role in Parliament because it is in all of our interests to make sure that Social Security Scotland is a success and is able to deliver for the people of Scotland and future Governments which want it to deliver for the people of Scotland as well. Parliament has that crucial role to play in holding both the institution at Social Security Scotland but also this SNP Green Government to account in ensuring transparency is delivered. It is concerning that Parliament has only been given sight of the updated Social Security programme business just one day before this debate taking place. It's not given us time to be able to do that role. Looking at the motion that the ministers have brought forward today, I think that we need to see a more honest discussion over where the Scottish Government acknowledges the many and increasing challenges facing Social Security Scotland. Oliver Mundell made an excellent speech, and I think that it is important that we do understand that MSPs from across this chamber will be hearing from constituents who are complaining about the service that they are receiving and the delay to payments. The fact that ministers have not kept their promises on what they said Social Security Scotland would deliver for people across Scotland. Despite the claims by SNP and Green Ministers claiming all is well, it must be said that the transitional arrangements are not. The fact that we now see DWP and UK ministers having to provide contingencies and extension agreements, agency agreements, to help support that on-going delivery of welfare payments in Scotland just demonstrates where we are and the fact that ministers have not delivered. Promises made by SNP ministers around the establishment capabilities of Social Security Scotland have come and gone, often with elections when they say these would be met. Rhoda Grant made a number of good points as well. It is clear that the days of virtual signalling by the SNP Green Government have now been replaced with the cold reality of having to deliver on a plan, and what is now a plan that will run to 2025 to meet these agreements. Meghan Gallagher and other speakers have also stated the honest fact that ministers said to the people of Scotland that they would establish an independent country in 18 months, but have failed to deliver a social security system more than a decade since having the powers to do that. That is despite promises that this new system would be in place by 2021, and I was on many panels with other members of the Government who said that that would be happening as well. Audit Scotland has been clear, and I think that this is an important part of today's debate, that it has continuously expressed concern around the challenging timescales regarding the delivery. I think that that is still the case today, and when they are looking at this, I doubt that 2025 might also be where they think that this can be delivered. Any Government body or Government quango needs to have this full transparency. Scottish people, I think, rightly expect us as a Parliament to make sure that resources being spent in this area are managed effectively and deliver value for money for the Scottish taxpayer ultimately. That is important. The record of this Government is not good in this area. Just looking at the facts of what we see with Social Security Scotland, a number of complaints has increased by more than 400 per cent since 2018. SNP Government has missed deadlines for transferring benefits since 2020, and they have had to hand back. That is one of the points of debate that has been missed. Severe disabling allowance to the DWP for the reason that they see no advantage of SSS delivering it. We should have been looking at the issues in more detail why the organisation has not been able to make what is the benefits delivered on time. It is a crucial issue, because without robust data it is also going to be more and more difficult to have that comparable argument and look at what is a critical role of the Parliament going forward and committees to effectively scrutinise Social Security Scotland. Indeed, whether the new welfare payments that we have supported across this chamber are actually delivering the key outcomes that we all want to see them achieve and lifting children out of poverty has been mentioned by a number of speakers being the key one. MSPs from across the chamber will no doubt be receiving complaints. Just this morning, I was dealing with constituents who have really become tired of phone calls not being answered and now giving up. I do not think that we are even getting a real estimate of the full extent of where people are giving up on the system. I think that that is concerning and something ministers have acknowledged in committee, but we need to see improve. The future for financial sustainability of new benefit payments is also critical, and that has been raised by a number of members in this debate. We need to see and find out where, by the end of this Parliament, spending over £700 million on new welfare payments, where will that come from and how will that be paid. To conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, I hope that today's debate has genuinely presented a bit of a reality check for Scottish Government ministers. That is not maybe the debate that they hoped of patting themselves on their back, but their pledges and timescales to deliver Social Security Scotland have been broken, but making sure that Social Security Scotland can deliver going forward is what should focus all our attentions and this Parliament as well. Ministers say that they want a system that will deliver dignity, fairness and respect, and I agree, but we on these benches also want to see a system that delivers on time, and I support the amendment in Jeremy Balfour's name. Thank you very much. Mr Briggs, I now call on Ben Macpherson to wind up the debate. Minister, if you could take us up to just before decision time at 5 o'clock, you would be very obliged. Thank you to colleagues for the constructive points that have been made. I think that it has been important to remember throughout today's debate that we have passed the Social Security Act 2018 unanimously and that what we are trying to achieve here together is a collective investment in people and improving the circumstances for all of our constituents. In that spirit, since the 2018 act was passed, we have made remarkable progress. There is more to do, as others have said, but we have made remarkable progress and today I have set out what we will do next. First, I would want to respond to some of the specific questions that were put to me. I thought that Willie Rennie made a very constructive contribution and he asked me about the delivery of Scottish child payment. I want to emphasise to him that Scottish child payment applications that were made since the benefit was extended on 14 November last year have now been processed. Many have been paid and all have been processed. We expect everyone who is still waiting for a payment, which will be backdated to when they are applied, and we will get a decision that we expect before the end of February. Then, of course, new applications that happen thereafter will be processed as quickly as possible. Oliver Mundell, I thought, was unfairly critical. He asked some points about value for money and costs. I want to clarify that the implementation estimates remain within 10 per cent of the 2020 programme business case figures. That is a good outcome given the re-planning that we undertook during the pandemic and the additional work that we are delivering on the Scottish child payment. Social Security Scotland's running costs are expected to be comparable to the department for work and pensions once all benefits have been introduced in case transfer have been completed. The updated overall total investment costs across Social Security Scotland, the social security programme and the social security directorate are broadly similar to the costs outlined in the 2020 programme business case, dropping slightly overall by about 0.5 per cent over the nine years from 2017-18 and 25-26. I thought that Mr Mundell unfairly said that there was almost a rebranding and that there was not any difference being made, but I would encourage him to engage with constituents who have been recipients of the Scottish child payment and he will understand from them the difference that this money makes. We are prioritising investing in social security. Of course, that has been in a period, as Paul McClellan emphasised, where we have seen a reduction of social security from the UK Government, cutting universal credit. As an alternative, in comparison, we have chosen to invest in social security and we will continue to do that. Thank you, minister, for taking this intervention. The winter fuel payment specifically, ministers were clear in saying that no one in Scotland would lose out, but it is now clear that rural communities across Scotland are. Communities that the green member did not mention, but, like Braymar, and a boy in which she represents, will now be out of pocket. Does he regret that? As I said to the committee, there are around 12,000 people in some areas in Scotland who may have got more payments under the cold weather payment scheme, but the cold weather payment scheme is completely unreliable, whereas we are replacing it with a reliable payment. We have, of course, doubled the fuel and security fund to £20 million and have engaged with local authorities in that area, encouraging them to utilise that fund. I have listened to colleagues and tried to respond, but I have some important things to say with my time remaining, and I would be grateful for colleagues' consideration of that. I cannot accept the two amendments that have been put forward. I urge Parliament to reject them on the basis that they are, unfortunately, a combination of unhelpful over-negativity and unrealistic wishful thinking. The difference between being in government, between sitting here and sitting in other places in the chamber, is that we have to balance what is desirable with what is possible, and we have a responsibility to try and take things forward for the benefit of all the constituents across the country. Since taking on this role, I have sought to do that as Social Security Minister. I am driven by the four values that have always guided me, a bit like the four values that this Parliament has. For me, it is about determination, imagination, courage and honesty. I have sought with colleagues in government to develop a social security system that not only delivers well now but has strong foundations for years to come, as Miles Briggs emphasised as important, to be utilised to good effect by whoever governs Scotland and in whatever constitutional situation the Scottish people choose as their future. What we have realised through using our social security powers is that, with determination and imagination, we can build effective modern use systems in just a number of years. I appreciate that those systems are not performing perfectly for everyone, and I would encourage Bob Doris to write to me about the case that he raised. I would not be appropriate for me to comment on the individual case right now, but if Mr Doris writes to me, I will definitely respond. Others have talked about cases, and I would encourage them to get back to me. Every piece of feedback that I receive on the case transfer process or on operational matters helps us to build as perfect a system as we can, but it is performing well. I also strongly believe that we all need to have the courage to honestly accept that and be candid about whatever our views in this Parliament or about what powers this Parliament should have or not. We need to be transparent about the realities of change, and I have sought to do that in this role. The truth is that Home Rule for Scotland continued devolution independence has, for me, always been more of an evolution than an event, and the next phase of the social security programme is part of that journey. We will do it well in Government, as we have up to this point, and I would encourage others to be constructive and positive in their service to the constituents that they seek to represent in coming here in a way that we can build this social security system together, whatever our position on the constitution. Social security staff are making a huge impact every day, and I absolutely salute their commitment and the contribution that they are making to building a better Scotland. That is why 89 per cent of people who have engaged with social security Scotland rated their overall experience with the agency as very good or good. That is the reality, the truth matters. Even just in recent days there has been somebody who posted, for example, on the social security social media, Social Security Scotland social media saying, you know, I think we are so lucky honestly in Scotland to get the amount of help we do, and that's because of the changes that have been made, and that's because of the delivery that is being undertaken by dedicated civil servants in the agency, because the truth is, Presiding Officer, and the truth matters. We are delivering more support in Scotland compared with elsewhere in the UK because we know it's the right thing to do. The truth is that more disabled people are feeling empowered in Scotland to get the support that they are entitled to, which is why projected spending on adult disability payment is set to increase. We know that this is the right thing to do, and our changes are making a difference. The truth is that, as Audit Scotland has said, despite the challenges of the pandemic, complex new benefits, including Scottish child payment and child disability payment, have been delivered. The truth is that this is a significant achievement. The truth is that the full roll-out of the Scottish child payment has been a watershed moment for tackling poverty in Scotland. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has said that, and the parents and guardians of the 387,000 eligible children across communities are benefiting from that and welcoming it and feeling it. The truth is, Presiding Officer, that 133,000 carers have benefited from over £200 million since we launched the carers allowance supplement in 2018 and will benefit further next year when we launch carers support payment. That is the truth. The truth matters. The truth is, Presiding Officer. There is more to do to deliver with our social security powers, as I and others have set out. We can also move forward with confidence based on what has already been achieved, with humility about the challenge and a sense of common purpose about the further positive difference that we can make and will make, particularly if we work constructively together. I ask Parliament today to vote for the positive delivery that we can and should make. Let's work together and continue to develop a social security system that not only benefits those who need some help but also makes Scotland better for us all. I urge Parliament to vote for the motion and to vote down the amendments. That concludes the debate on update on the social security programme business case. It is now time to move on to the next item of business. There are three questions to be put as a result of today's business. I am minded to accept a motion without notice under rule 11.2.4 of standing orders that decision time be brought forward to now, and I invite the Minister for Parliamentary Business to move the motion. The question is that decision time be brought forward to now. Are we all agreed? We are agreed. The first question is that amendment 7805.1, in the name of Jeremy Balfour, which seeks to amend motion 7805, in the name of Ben Macpherson on update on the social security programme business case, be agreed. Are we all agreed? We are all agreed. The Parliament is not agreed. Therefore, we will move to a vote, and there will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.