 what pirates did and where they I think are our good is that you can use a pirate ship as a kind of a microcosm of how we should exist together because you just like we're on a ship in the middle of the ocean we've got to survive we've got enemies all around us no safe place to harbour because we're now enemies of the state and we have to exist together we have to exist in some kind of harmony and how are we going to do that and that's that urgency that they had is really useful to put yourself in that scenario and perhaps we haven't felt that urgency until now and say okay what are the principles here um and the things that emerge were you know we all have to be heard we have to we all have to have a um and and I guess one of the facts that I love about how pirates made decisions was when they decided the articles in a pirate code they had to be unanimous vote there was not even if one person disagreed with one of the articles it didn't go in because that was that slight one percent risk of mutiny was not worth it so um you know it was real real unanimous decision making completely different to the kind of government lawmaking that we have now where it's imposed upon people Alexandra Alex Barker is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine Alex leads Be More Pirate a global social movement and anti-consultancy that she began life as a book by social entrepreneur Sam Conniff since joining Sam she has fostered a network of thousands of individuals and organizations who have turned pirate and are actively challenging the status quo in their work and lives within the movement she splits her time between writing research running workshops and growing the network but it was a long road to piracy after studying in the middle Middle East politics Alex spent time traveling and working in the region beginning her career in international development detouring to social care before becoming communications manager at a think tank the RSA Royal Society of Arts having always been fascinated by why systems fail and what it takes to make them succeed she found in the story of pirates the answers to some long-standing questions since then she has written a follow-up book How to Be More Pirate documenting the insights from their movement a frontline perspective on the courage and conviction required to rewrite the rules of the 21st century alongside building the movement Alex works with businesses universities NGOs and the public sector supporting them to overhaul their culture take more risks and be more ambitious with how they can support a wider systems change Alex thank you for being here it's wonderful to see you again thanks so much Mark it's such a pleasure so we we first saw each other online you were online with many other people so I don't even know if you noticed me but you were giving an online kind of insight to be more pirate and a little presentation and it was absolutely beautiful I was sleeping and in the dark and had not bought the book yet by the time I heard that presentation I'd heard some rumors and discussions about it here and there and that people were joining the pirate movement and so I went out and got a copy and read it in one day and then reread it again on the audiobook version and here it is our being more pirate yeah and I guess that's a that's a lot that has to do with the book but also had a little bit of insight on the new book coming up but before we get into all of that I want to know with this Middle East studies and and what you have learned has not only would be more pirate but in your think tanks and your experiences seeing older systems NGOs and charities come and go and fail and kind of feel that frustration which I felt as well as any of that helped you to weather this pandemic to uh fare the swashbuckling seas of dystopia and pandemics and things how have you weathered this time uh up until now yeah I think it definitely has and when I started working with Sam and on on the pirate movement I thought long and hard about what qualifies me to do this you know I don't I don't quite know we're very used to having official qualifications and and skills that we've and I thought it's bravery actually I think before I joined Sam I took quite a few risks and a few leaps out of my previous life personally and professionally and being able to stand there in front of people and say it's fine um it will be it's rough for a bit and then it's fine and your life will probably go in you know waves like that in the way that people are experiencing at this moment and and saying it with conviction I think is really reassuring so I've I've weathered it I weathered the storm okay I think my biggest problem always is a slight tendency to overwork and and get really stuck into things um I'd long lost my faith in traditional leadership and the systems and institutions that we have um that happened after brexit um I was sitting in a think tank and I didn't see a single person maybe one actually and that person wasn't the usual type of person who got recruited um who saw it coming who saw the result coming everyone was pretty convinced that they were that we were gonna um stay in the European Union and then you know the shock and but also the sense of like wow well we're missing something we all of us are smart university educated people we're missing something and we and we for whatever reason are not looking in the right places so and but the the worst thing the the I guess the most disappointing thing about it was we didn't rectify anything after that we didn't say okay so how do we change how we behave and the kind of way we do things in order to enable ensure that next time we do have the answers I think we just we kind of carried on the same way and the inability to pull yourself out of the the same structures and ways of being that you've always you're used to is something that is just um I guess a pandemic of um of doing things the way that they've always been done and I just was craving something else and I didn't know what it was um but I did find it in pirates that's fabulous you've done probably quite a few presentations and workshops and helped a lot of people over this time those who were kind of early adopters on the pirate movement and things that you you kind of try to guide them and teach them and show them you know how to think in a different way how to change the system um have you heard any good stories how they've weathered the pandemic if it's been better if being a swashbuckling pirate or someone who is really disrupting the system or doing things in a different way if that's a better business model if that's a better system to operate in in times of a pandemic in times of great unrest it's not just the pandemic it's also you know as you mentioned the the brexit the trump ox apocalypse is the bull scenarios the putans the shays you know the things that happened in beirut black lives matter um many many many things that are now bubbling to the surface and and happening whether they're climate catastrophe capitalism or whatever it is just this this unrest is coming but are you seeing signs that that this way of thinking and this way of acting is kind of a better business model to get you through difficult times yeah i i'll speak to a couple of specific examples and then also say that i have seen you've i've seen a change in people i've seen a realization that the system is more fragile than they than they anticipated and that stability might be an illusion um to an extent to a greater extent that they anticipated i've seen that in my own family realizing that actually maybe things are going to continue more in this vein of uncertainty than than returning exactly back to what was before but i think you know i'll speak to in the uk we've obviously had a government response a local government response and also a community response to the pandemic and we see lots and lots of mutual aid groups pop up where you know people have self-organized they have said we will just fill the gaps we know the people who are going to suffer we know the people who are who are more vulnerable we need to get food to them ASAP we just created their own list of these resources we need in the way that we were starting to fill the gaps with time bank uh not time banks food banks um because of lack of government support so that's kind of accelerated and what i've seen and i've noticed on twitter i've noted it through our our network who of many of whom are involved in health and social care here i've seen them them go with this red tape that we have around volunteering it's not working you've got 750 000 people volunteering for the nhs and most of those people didn't get a response because the system can't keep up so people are turning to their mutual aid groups and going we don't need a 10 page risk assessment here we don't need um a dbs check necessarily we need some some key simple principles that people can adhere to to ensure that we stay safe we need to adhere to the social distancing we need to be respectful um and you know wash our hands and wear our masks and by and large then therefore we will step into that gap so yeah i've actively seen and i've put a little bit about that in the book about the the nature of the rules that we need we need to have we need to be a bit better and a bit um more okay um mentally with not mitigating every single risk every time because the bigger risk is that people fall through the gaps and they have been for many years here so i've really seen that start to shift it's whether we can now protect it whether those mutual aid groups won't be you know co-opted or um they'll manage you know because a lot of that um volunteering capacity was enabled by people being furloughed and i don't know if we'll be able to maintain that as people go back to work full time um and whether the mindset shift will have been long enough for people to to really kind of hold down but a lot of people now have that in their collective memory so people are going back into work in their organizations in the voluntary sector in the in local government are kind of bringing that back in and going actually this worked okay and can we keep it so that's definitely um a shift and just generally i've seen people think more deeply about the implications um of the climate um and that this might be a drill as i think extinction rebellion have said you know treat this as a drill um and i've seen yeah just a few more people questioning their life decisions um and on what on what matters um whether it's you know a great emphasis on family and friends decisions like maybe not um having children big big things um so definitely yeah this is a noticeable um shift is there any shift in in the pirates or the businesses or the foundations or the groups that you work with in a more positive direction or really say hey we we we made a shift you know whether it was 2019 or or the beginning of this year to to to have more pirate being our business model and actually it's helped us weather the storm better yeah there's some examples like that as well absolutely yeah um it was a great example that came up just a couple of weeks ago and i also had to come and talk to another group of pirates on in one of our meetups um they it's a woman called Kate she runs a logistics company so very much involved in you know transferring goods from off to offices and back and forth and um she made a shift to be more pirate starting around a couple of years ago really when the book came out and it's said it's been a it's been a journey of two years but she's like ultimately it has allowed us to weather this pandemic storm better than we could have anticipated um and really that had to do with um their values and the behaviors that emanate from those values and making sure that everybody was on board with that and understanding what it meant to be in that company and just almost moving their culture further towards the kind of relational than than the transactional so rather than everybody focusing just on this is my task i have to execute it people were more concerned about the the relationships between the people in the business making sure that they were tight there was a hell of a lot of trust there so when things did hit you know hit the fan that people knew that they could rely on each other and that there was just a fundamental understanding of of everybody's that everybody was on the same page and i know that sounds a little bit vague but that really is the foundation i think of being more pirate and having a pirate it's not you know i i always say like there is no one business model that works perfectly um it is about how the feeling of the crew of of the culture that you have are you all in this together and then you kind of work out the particular ways of working from there that suits you um and i also just um would say you know perhaps a bit more of a practical example um this is not well it's someone in the wider crew but there's an example in Be More Pirate um for those who've read it will know uh that Sam mentions Cressy Westling who founded a um on a sustainability luxury sustainability brand called Elvis and Cressy where she rescues waste material and turns them into luxury accessories and we interviewed her for our forthcoming podcast um and she said you know the reason we've weathered the storm so well is because our supply chain um because our supply chain is really ethical um so we don't we're everything is done quite locally and it's um everything's so handcrafted and we do everything at a slower pace so it just wasn't but then that was an environmental um kind of a consideration rather than a you know pandemic consideration but now in the pandemic um she's just not had the same problems a lot of people who import things from China had initially um everything's kind of done locally in Kent in there and then it takes longer and it's handcrafted and that's her version of what luxury actually should be and what it means so yeah that that um she described as a real success and a win for them I really have to agree with that um it's really as you said so eloquently it's not just one business model fits all but what it is that most people kind of don't understand it's it's a real resilient business model because you're you're you're automatically kind of doing things if you do things resiliently or kind of a little bit more of this disruptive pirate way you build in sustainability is built in there automatically and it puts businesses and companies in a unique position that when problems occur whether it's a resources water drought floods or natural catastrophes or a pandemic or governmental conflicts that disrupt the system those systems because the way they're structured are very resilient they're put in a unique position not all of them but the majority of them are put in a unique position that they're now able to help others with food with logistics with pivoting on a dime to make respirators or mass or deliver critical vital services or just to remain in business because their sources and their sustainable supply chain is very local or regional that those those things actually provide a nice infrastructure something you said earlier and something I just kind of touched upon um you're obviously probably not an expert but you are living through it you're experiencing it you mentioned the brexit and so I'd like to kind of just poke our head down down that and maybe ask you a question and see if you have the answer or what your thoughts or feelings are on that I think if generally our audience can can tell your your thoughts or feelings on that but my question is a big portion of the vote to move was because of all the immigrants and outside workers that were in brexit the majority of those being agriculture food and beverage servers harvesters in that industry for food and it was somewhere in the upward amounts of over 200 000 people every year that were seasonal workers that came in and out or tried to stay or not the vote would be not just to get rid and not have those people in there but it's because of the jobs that they were supposedly taking from local people which would lead me to believe or which would lead me to say why in the hell are so many people in in the united kingdom being furloughed why didn't they step into those jobs that they voted for to get rid of those immigrant workers and and and help that food from being not wasted until back under into the ground you know what i mean because during this brexit time during this pandemic and lockdown there's we're getting numerous stories my local friends in the united kingdom are saying a lot of farmers are telling their food back right into the ground because there's not enough harvester harvesters to pick and package and and ship that on its way and deliver it there's not a system in place so why didn't all the people who voted jump into those positions that they've ordered to get rid of uh well that's a good question um i i would expect that a lot of people who perhaps voted um on the basis of of feeling that immigration was a big problem and jobs are being taken certainly wouldn't didn't see themselves in those roles that wasn't that's not the point of it um so i'm not that doesn't surprise me at all to be honest with you um yeah i i mean i don't know i think there's a there's a lot of um i mean going going a bit broader on that question this is a general problem with sort of cis i can call it system literacy i don't think the people necessarily understand and this is not for me to sound patronizing because i would even say you know like i said with a think tank background i don't understand um all the intricacies of the system what we're dealing with a lot of complexity and nobody really gets educated on any of that what happens when you pull out this part of the system and and don't fill it adequately and no you know our government i think is it's broadly understood that not wildly prepared for this scenario in a sense of figuring out very quickly what would happen when you did all this stuff i definitely don't think we we can't even reach a decision on brexit let alone planning for what would happen when you start to pull plugs in in at all so um i think yeah i mean it's a good yeah it's a good question i definitely don't have the answer to that at all that's okay i didn't expect you to i just i know yeah some thoughts of feelings and it is very complex and you touched the the hit the nail on the head uh the problem with a lot of their system our systems in the world not only in brexit or the uk is that a lot of our ministries our governments our departments and those they're not run like a system they're run like a siloed facet of a much complexer system and they don't communicate very well with each other yeah i'm an entrepreneur and advocate and activist and do many other things and if i were to go just with one of my projects to the uh german government and and asked for support and and and help for um approvals on renewable energy and agriculture and different things that that i would like to do when i present that they're like oh that's the ministry of agriculture you need to speak to but it's not because it's also that ministry of energy it's also the ministry of transportation and there's so many different ministries involved that all of them want to push you off to someone else or all of them want you to box boxy into one facet of that system as someone who has thought or tried to understand systems and realizes how there are current civilization frameworks or systems that we have out there in place worldwide u.s africa china um united kingdom wherever they are they're not working for humanity anymore there's more civil unrest there's more people uncomfortable because there's decisions being made and they're not being made for the benefit of everyone on our planet you know decisions and and uh in uh brazil from bolson arrow to let the amazon rainforest burn just doesn't affect brazil it affects the whole world and our environment and so um with systems in mind and how we're feeling this that the civil civilization frameworks aren't working for us anymore would you say that the model or the being more pirate or how to be more pirate is that a system that functions well is that one good on all layers of of human physiological needs on social and biosphere needs on economic needs and is that a pretty good model or yeah depends on whether we're yeah depends on whether you're talking about pirates in the historical sense or in the in the modern sense and you know those obviously there's parallels but it's it's slightly different and it's really interesting there's so many things you put up there that are fascinating to me like you can touch on all of them oh my goodness like silos like that's you know what i guess i'm talking about would be more pirate i would describe it as one part personal development one part activism and one part kind of system change or organizational change and that you know wiki you can apply it to the micro or the macro and depending on where you are but i bring the personal development because i think it does it starts from there you can't look at your organization for example without really looking at the the bigger world the big picture um so they all integrate and this is what exactly what i want and some perhaps a reason why you can't always people can't always quite figure out being more pirate so what is this i want to put it in a category is it a business book and i'm like no it's everything because really we are all everything like we are not you know we don't exist we don't actually exist in silos as you have you as you described and i've had lots of experiences like that with government and stuff um but i think in terms of a it being a useful model yeah in that because in that respect i do think it is and there's another thing you just said where you said the systems are failing they're not working for us anywhere but have they ever worked really because i think this is a weird moment for us westerners where we're going oh my god you know it's failing because we're gonna be influenced by this pollution from somewhere else and the whole world's gonna melt but people who've existed in poverty and economically developing countries have predominantly been exploited by the west in previous centuries probably think well this is how it's always been and you know the fact that you're waking up now is frankly irrelevant so i don't know i um i don't think it's necessarily ever worked um what pirates did and where where they i think are our good is that you can use a pirate ship as a kind of a microcosm of how we should exist together because you just like we're on a ship in the middle of the ocean and we've got to survive we've got enemies all around us no safe place to harbor because we're now enemies of the state um we have to exist together we have to exist in some kind of harmony and how are we going to do that and that's our urgency um that they had is really useful to put yourself in that scenario um perhaps we haven't felt that urgency until now and say okay what are the principles here um and the things that emerge were you know we all have to be heard we have we all have to have a um and and i guess one of the facts i love about how pirates made decisions was when they decided the articles in a pirate code they had to be unanimous vote there was not even if one person disagreed with one of the one of the articles it didn't go in because that was that slight one percent risk of mutiny was not worth it so um you know it was real real unanimous decision making completely different to the kind of government law making that we have now where it's imposed upon people um and you know then it emerged from there you know they didn't they didn't bury the things that we've buried for long you know if if people were having same-sex relationships on a pirate ship they celebrated it they were like right well that's exist that exists so we're not gonna despite you know the the civilizations that we've come from and the societies that we've all we've been taught to think here's the reality and so we work with that we work with reality um and and and that in it also meant not being actually that idealistic or utopian about humanity going we've all got egos we have to acknowledge the ego within the collective so there's a level of competition and collaboration that exists in humanity so i think there's a yeah there's a something really realistic about pirates i love and it just makes it so much better than some of the social change movements i feel that i've been involved in previously where it's all a bit like yeah we're do-gooders and i don't think you know so we're not do-gooders we're not all good uh all the time of course we're not that's what you know but we also there's a huge amount of people who are um aware that um you know that that that is exploitative and i think the the key like the key for me is the bravery it's the it's the ability to stand up and push back i think you can be you know you can be a bit arrogant you can be um a bit selfish sometimes and we all are but that key thing in in terms of making change is the ability to when you do see something that isn't right um not ignoring it and it's been fascinating with black lives matter uh uh seeing people go oh wow that does exist and um the and and it's been a yeah i think the moment that's why it feels different with black lives matters and in this particular incarnation of it has probably been the the pause that we've had with with covid that's allowed um people to pay more attention to a protest movement in a way that they haven't before but the realization i've seen amongst my peers as well that this is about unpicking a system and that these small contributions that you make are important and the contribution that you're making is your silence is your your turning the other way because you're too busy you're too distracted there's another cause over here that maybe is more important to you um and how that all stacks up to a system and that's that's what i again like to get to with pirates is you know if you want to think about a system like you are part of it you are contributing to it all the time and these little actions that you take or don't take really matter um but but less so in the sense of like the way that we maybe talk about environmentalism and people going vegan and saying well you know you make your contribution let's stop eating meat and yes that might be important but i think where you're really powerful is in a in a moment and in a place where you actually do have some influence like in your in your team meeting for example and you're the sort of fairly senior person and there's some decisions happening you're kind of going um don't want to walk the boat that's the moment for you to step into it and that's unlike any other kind of protest we've seen before because you're not surrounded necessarily by a crowd you don't have people backing you there probably people expecting you to conform and that's the moment when you've got to be pirate yeah it's not it's not always about the conformity but it really is about um collaboration and cooperation and the bigger picture i like how you say that we're you know the pirates we're all on the same ship we don't have a harbour and as a climate activist environmentalist and the things that i do um we're all on spaceship so actually that leads so nicely into the first major question i have for you is do you consider yourself a global citizen and how would you feel about the removal of all borders walls and separations divisions of humanity from one another um do you think we could still be pirates in a world where we're all global citizens on the same spaceship earth um so how would i feel about it um you know in theory i'm fine i'm on a personal emotional level if you're fine about it i don't particularly feel that my identity is with worded to my nationality um and i think you know people have said it to me before a friend said it to me over the weekend you know about brexit when we got back onto that dreaded subject you know people in london feel more in common with people in barcelona than they do with people in crew in london so we're already in a sense have a sense of our global citizenship um but so but it's an interesting one because to be global to be truly global means essentially accepting all kinds of of life and that doesn't just mean seeing yourself as part of the the metropolitan cosmopolitan um uh view of the world it means really marrying up all the views of the world and being okay with all of that so i'd like to think that i would but i don't think that um i don't want i wouldn't want to you know not not acknowledge that there would be resist that i would have resistance to some of it and i would also be concerned about what would actually practically happen if you started to tear down borders um and i think i mean in a really microcosm sense i i suggested this to my previous workplace when i left i was like i think because it's separated into three departments and i said tear down the walls i said we're not all going to well we're not actually all going towards the same goal we are in rhetoric but we're not in practice because we will have separate kpis and they actually clash with each other quite often and that's why i essentially see the world like that we are we have different because of the differences of economies we are um at cross you know cross purposes in our objectives for what is good for our people so perhaps the only answer to that is to but i would do it in an expo i would do it in a in a staggered way so it'd be like let's try one border fast see what happens and it's really it's interesting because so okay you're on a pirate ship and we're just analogy and and you know from the book and from things you're on a ship you're all together you got to work together at whether you know it's the ship or organization or business or whatever it is let's just spread that ship a little bit bigger it's the the biggest ship we know of it's planet earth and we're all on that ship together and we still have cultures we still have extreme diversity and difference and cultures and languages and genders but we're all on the same ship we're all crew members on the same ship we're all unified in this global operating system this global mission that's one that has never existed before but is on our planet why why why couldn't we just make it bigger than than than the pirate ship why can't we expand that more yeah well yeah and there's the the issue of i mean pirates really had the proximity of each other well we kind of have in a sense if we can see each other through the media but then you become a sensitized to media so i'd be interested to know what it is that sustains the emotional connection of um systems around the world just feeling part of one entire um ship and just going back to your previous question about you know she you know being currently send pirates to this to apply a pirate sort of mindset or um model to this i the answer is actually no because pirates exist in opposition in opposition to the navy so you can't really i mean i talk about this in the in the new book about what does what do we mean when we say the navy and i've um defined it as a concentration of power so and power can mean anything i mean it doesn't have to be the establishment in a way that we've traditionally understood it like governments or um it could be the media it could be um you know the advertising industry all the big companies that hold all our data um so there's only a need for pirates when there is that opposition moment so if we really did start to shift and see ourselves as part of one would it be would it be necessary um perhaps not i it's definitely a dilemma it's something that we need to kind of maybe dissect or find some sense making out of it because i'm also in agreement with you that there has to be a form of balance there's always going to be good and bad there's always going to be a you know a choice between two goods or two bads you know but there's got to be some kind of a balance what i you know i even though the trumpocalypse the bolts and arrows the shays the putans the arid ones to artis and the list is too big to go on are out there they're still distant cousins of mine and yours as homo sapiens and we may disagree but we've got to find a new global operating system that works for us all and that that there's a balance held because we're really pushing the boundaries in in many areas and i really like the application of uh being more pirate into business models and disruption and also trying to find and improve systems and create new ways of looking and working together because i see all governments businesses corporations organizations as an organism a living organism an organization that is living and molded that really if it doesn't have that model it's really limited by its growth in an amount of time that will be here on this earth because it's not something that can sustain itself and that's that's what's really occurred around the world now those who have had older business models and and older ways of doing things that were very linear siloed or very negative impactful corporations organizations they've been disrupted they've gone away they're being fined they're realizing oh my gosh you know uh here's the these small guys are these disruptors they're changing the entire industry we need to get up to speed so uh i i don't believe i have all the answers but it would be nice to see how we could give some tools to not only my listeners but those who read be more private pirate and how to be more pirate and give them some empowerment and tools and ways to really see the world under different lands and and operate differently that leads me to my first most difficult question for you and i hope you're prepared i i don't know how well prepared you are because it's it's a hard one right now we have been uh we're still kind of coming out of it and we're seeing different things of the pandemic where we're wearing masks social distancing and all these measures in place um but if you push current business models you put push current operating systems from governments and cities out into the future is the next step gas mass oxygen spacesuits we're going to live in bubbles are we not going to operate or function what systems are in place to save us to make the future better and that leads me to my burning question wtf which is not what the fuck which most pirates would say but it's what's the future alex um yeah i mean it is yeah it can go it could go either way couldn't it and up until now we have experienced this and i find this bizarre we have sat back and allowed a very very small amount of people to create things that haven't that are now essentially ruler lives um some of them at the beginning felt benign like facebook i've realized it's not so benign and these yeah these technologies and i think the people creating them don't even really know what the consequences are of harvesting all this data and um what what ai will do and that didn't really feature too much in discussions elections either so and it feels like we've been marching on in that direction of more more technological technological innovation and i and i always put try to put a hand up and say whoa like with that like what do we even think about this and the only answer that i've come up with when it comes to determining what the future could be in a more positive sense and determining the only i guess spanner in the works of the system that i can think of is to give people back a greater sense of agency and and and find ways mechanisms for people to regain their own sense of citizenship power and there are lots of different ways you can do that and it starts and and some of it starts with a mindset and that's some of the work that i'm trying to do with shifting people's you know real mentality about what is possible for me what are my limitations and what what is really holding me back that i can overcome but then there are some more practical considerations and there's a campaign i'm going to mention because i i love it and i i've been started to work with them recently um called flat pack democracy in the uk and it essentially like take over your local politics because it's a might be a secret weapon to to save our democracy from from kind of always being quite top down and and feeling like you know it's just going to be more of the same um there's a few councils in the uk this is a local most local level the most community level and we have local town councillors and people don't really pay much attention to that because it's very local um and if we could encourage some different people and some people who are really invested in the in the communities that they live in to kind of take over those councils and it's not like you know there's been a few people who've done it and proven there's not that difficult to do and you can actually run a campaign on some quite fun principles and actually the perhaps the the tagline is that they didn't see us coming because they just didn't think that anyone would have the audacity um or the the balls to really go for it and then suddenly you found out you've got this this um uh this group of independence and the key thing here in the uk is that they are not part they're not associated with the labor party or the conservative party or even the green party um because the problem with party politics is that then you know they're so in opposition to each other it's like we can't do that because you're doing that when really like a green sustainable solution is just good for that town it doesn't you know it's not about whose idea it is so you're getting by being independent you're getting people to work together in a totally different sort of way and this was pioneered by a guy called Peter McFadden and he he did it in a small town in the southwest of England called Froome and you know this is where I'm getting this inspiration from because he's it's so pirate it it encapsulates all the um principles of being pirate even even the fun of it um and and just kind of going in and going do you know what we're going to do this and as soon as they got into the council they got handed this agenda that you get um given by the government to say that this is how you'd run a town council he just goes right is any of this actually a legal requirement there's only that one thing he goes right we'll do that and then nothing else we're going to do we're going to start from a blank slate and they created this entirely different ways of working together and there's there's a few other like there's a lots of community power sharing democratic movements and enterprises that I've seen over the year spring up around food sharing things like incredible edible that help people to reclaim land local land that's being unused and just use it for growing food um like library of things sharing things if these could scale properly and they had they were properly resourced and seen as solutions and that there was that you could enable people who do you know in local government to give a bit of their power away and see these as the solutions that they need and allow people to get on with it I think that could that is edging towards a solution for the future it might I'm not sure whether it'll be powerful enough to stand up against some of the um existing powers and what we know when they really dig their heels in um but that's where I'm generally drawing some hope from at the moment that's great that is a fabulous example have you have you heard um about the world economic forms the great reset um so it's um you know it's not going back to business as usual it's not going to the new normal it's it's not even a twist on on business as usual it is a great reset and um I don't know how much you know about what I do but I am an advocate for the United Nations sustainable development goals and and uh big activist environmentalists that kind of uh have been looking for years for a global plan for the world to to to use as a guide and a plan to get us to the future that will sustain us all that's I mean when we talk about pirates when we talk about ships when you you need a plan you need to navigate your course otherwise you're drifting you're just taking where the sea is taking you where the wind blows you it's nice to kind of have a plan it's okay to change the plan mid course or pivot or do whatever that that of course happens but if you have a plan it's um you know where you're going to go and you can also kind of envision imagine and dream towards what it will look and feel like for me um that plan is the 2030 agenda it's the United Nations 17 sustainable development goals and what most people don't know is that it is a great reset it's not uh the the 17 sustainable development goals are not just targets and indicators and monies behind that achievement and all tied together as an intricate system there's no way you could just work on one of the 17 goals and not touch on the others because they're all set up like a system but it's a total new global economy it's a total new reset and how we do industry and innovation and gender equality and equality education and how we go to zero poverty and zero hunger and that we really set the bar higher than any of our current operating systems or economies or models out there and we say this is a global plan and a global standard that will never go below it's okay to still have your borders your nations your divisions but what we're saying is that this standard is one that will never go below we can still have the crazies and still have the nationalism and whatever else is here it's just this saying unified as as humanity we're never going to go below this standard and this great reset I would like to know your feelings your thoughts about it also how that might tie to being more pirate also um how you feel if the Sustainable Development Goals or the Paris Agreement to December 2030 if that is a plan that could work for humanity or if it's okay I have many people on the show they're like I don't believe I'm not sure I don't understand them you know things like that I want to get a little bit of your insight and then maybe see if there's any ties to the book to piracy because there's a lot of people who create who have created this people who are involved in this are are other forms of pirates basically as well whether Gandhi was one of the the core council at the United Nations and Human Rights things many many years ago and there's other pirates like that who've done wonderful things who've also been involved in these global futuristic plans out there so yeah um do I do I believe I'm making a hard I mean my first my first thought was you know do I I want to ask you back do you think that development and sustainable art is an oxymoron in a sense is it's are they do they fit together anymore because it depends on yeah I mean if we're talking about development in the way that most people would interpret the word development and I had a thought throughout when you were speaking about how how a lot of this sometimes depends on semantics and the way that people interpret it um about whether it's doable or not and even when you're talking about the idea of having a um a plan and actually I usually say Sam and I usually say to each other the problem is the plan um but only a plan in the sense of like a set by set like stage by stage set of instructions that you have to follow which is how a lot perhaps one might interpret a plan but when you're talking about an ambition or a vision slightly different and what pirates would do is have a vision or an ambition and then have a compass to navigate it for and then the compass is a set of principles and behaviors that you do to but going off there do I do I think I guess I when I started um after I'd spent some time in the Middle East I actually worked on a permaculture farm and that was radical you know um and it was in the um occupied Palestinian territories and it was people sort of it was in the context of the Arabs the Palestinian Israeli conflict in the sense of you know they were having resources constrained by the Israeli state so how can how will people can there be a more sustainable way to live off the land actually so it was more a necessity rather than environmental consideration although the people running the program had a back well ecologists had background in that and you know learned some incredible methods for how you could live with a lot less but ultimately the people we were talking to about it still wanted to have you know modern gadgets and stuff what you thought why why do we have to exist with this when everybody else is getting the technology so there was a psychological resistance to from particular people in particular parts of the world and their circumstances towards not having um all the the gains that capitalism has brought um so I'd say that's that's one sort of conflict in my mind about whether it's possible because I kind of agree with the more fringe elements of what development should look like I think it should be reverting to more permaculture models um and I think yeah and then I went into um I started working at a campaigning organization um which is called Global Citizen which was then the Global Poverty Project so it was more focused on poverty and poverty reduction and we worked on what was the global what was then the Millennium Development Goals it was all aiming towards 2015 and if I look back at those now I would I wouldn't have much faith in in that and a lot of that has to do with my experience since in terms of um the kind of people I don't know that's a bit maybe a bit unfair but what happens when you become part of the the power dynamics and the power systems that we have at the moment where you are part of an organization um that is you know designated the designated leader of change I fundamentally believe that in order to create this kind of real global shift it is going to have to be more democratic than it is without just one you know whether it's the UN or the um you know the world economic forum kind of leading the way unless it unless it's really solutions that I think come from communities and people that works for them and maybe part of that maybe you'll have to tell me um if that's what if that's where it's heading I actually think that that's um where it is heading it's heading more that that we need the plan that there is a plan that it's actually five years into the plan now we've got 10 years left to go on it but but there's even a more important question so I'm glad to hear that you you know I also work with global citizens and that you started thinking about that or we're working with them back in the millennium development goals arena but can you tell me is there one global plan for our future is there is there a plan out there other other than the sustainable development goals that you know of um no there isn't a plan there isn't a plan so are you right there's a sense of like is this it let's just what we are where we are and let's work with what we are what we've got and what we're trying to and I I wouldn't I hear what you're saying I don't I wouldn't want to be in the in the camp of people going well it's all just gonna fail you know yeah there's a huge camp like that that's for sure but I mean the other thing is even if they're you know if maybe that's a little bit too rough there's no other global plan that we could think of I mean we could probably talk about the green new deal the new deal whatever you call it but well even on a local regional or national level there's not a lot of big plans that even cover states I get guaranteed in the United States there is no plan it's a chaotic uh um a chaotic plan it's the disrupt and lie and fake fake news or whatever and but if if we look at other countries what is the plan and how is it unifying but how are those even if it's a nationalistic plan or country-based plan how is that tied um to other nations other countries or to the globe because in some respects um a plan like that is is similar to to what you mentioned earlier that on on the pirate's code or a code of conduct or there what what was the term that you use the yeah the pirate carries the pirate the the pirate code and articles that everyone had to agree upon it right not one person well the sustainable development goals 197 countries came together for the first time in history and agreed upon it that's a historical precedence it's actually the first ever global moonshot but even so let's say that there's a nationalistic plan out there that's pretty good and it's looking like wow Argentina has this great plan and or chili has a great plan and and it's really going to get them into the future that plan eventually because of the environment the earth we live in we're all breathing the same water or breathing the same air drinking the same water uh polluting the same oceans whatever it is it all affects all of us eventually so um how do the effects of other nations affect that great plan that maybe chili or argentina have and uh so that's why wouldn't it be nice to to have some kind of a global plan also based on the basic models and thought process that you that you know that are mentioned in the book and so I know I didn't prepare you enough to get into some of the systemic and and this because when I read the book when I think about it I really look look at the lens of sustainability and this long-term future how could we apply that or even how could we use some of those tools to make us reach these resilient desirable futures these goals and paths in the future there was one other thing I wanted to touch upon as well where you mentioned development there is a limit to growth which which could be considered development that comes from the book uh 1972 the limits to growth the second book that came out was beyond the limits to growth because we'd already went beyond so development in that form or capitalism or gdp there is a limit to that type of thing where we run out of resources we just hit a hit a wall we've you know we've used everything possible and there's an end but that's why sustainable development because to to sustain oneself to be sustainable to means to have resources and monies and tools and operations and things for future generations to be around in the future and and it's more than just sustainable development it's this one planet living it's living within the safe operating spaces of planetary boundaries it's living as one planet living circular economy whatever you would say and so those are all also concepts you know that that you know you can go on the micro but you go macro and you can you know they can expand on up what makes you so convinced that this time around you say 197 countries sign a deal what makes you think this time around it's going to work that you know there haven't been agreements on this before that the science has been there for a really long time why is it only when there's you know I think a lot of people still don't feel the sense of emergency and a lot of people still don't believe in the climate crisis and um yeah so I don't know I guess what I'm interested in what's convinced you that you know having a plan is better than having no plan and I I guess the thing I would draw from it a little bit is um and perhaps where the pirate principles come in a little bit is that pirate being be more priority is about personal is part in part about personal sense of agency and responsibility and freedom and enable to do something and when a plan is at a global level um to be you know sort of given to citizens that's not I mean we're just sitting there at the mercy of whether our government does the actions that it said that will do or not so I'm really more interested in what people can do now on their own and that might be the CEO of you know a national or international corporation actually suddenly just making a personal commitment to going I want to be on the right side of history my kids are asking questions and I want to do this or it might be you know seeing you know that what if I just went out and did the thing and reclaimed the land and started to gross and stuff and said this is for the whole community whatever or we pedestrianized our street so that feels to me more like a plan than because I feel like I have a part to play in it in a way that I don't think people have feel that they have a part to play in the the global you know these big strategies that get made up by organizations people don't relate to that I think that was my problem with it over time I agree and I've heard that before and understand exactly um but what you mean and I if you don't mind I'm really here to speak with you and not you hear a lot from me but I would love to unpack it a little bit to see if it makes sense to you um we don't know what the sustainable development goals are for who they're for and how to understand them when they were presented to us they were actually presented wrong to us we didn't know are they for cities countries governments are they for corporations who are they for they're really for each individual they are all tied to agriculture seafood food and beverages all 17 of the goals and um they're for each and every individual of course they're also for country cities government and things as these grand plan but it's really down to the lowest level I don't know if you you believe this or if you understand this but by having a structure a plan in a in a form of a discipline or guidance of a plan it's actually not confining or imprisoning in any respects it's actually freedom because in that respect you are securing your basic rights as a human being and gaining tons of freedom not only to move around the world but also freedom that you will never get or go below a certain standard as a human being to be lesser than someone in the western world or in the eastern world or in developing countries that we're all have the the inalienable equal rights as human beings the reason they're all tied to each and every single individual on earth is because that fact that I said they're all 17 are tied to food when we look at our world most of our capitalism or our fights or conflicts around energy and resources if you look at maslow's hierarchy of needs the pyramid of maslow's hierarchy of needs the bottom two layers breathing food and water security of body resources security of health those are for us and just like the sustainable development goals that's really how we need to view them as a wedding cake a pyre or pyramid where the bottom layers are biosphere life on land life below water climate action and clean water and sanitation that's our biosphere where we get all resources from to make computers airplanes food whatever it is that's where we get those resources from and without them without that protective layer within our planetary boundaries we can't reach the society level or the economic level of that different type of of a pyramid for life and so as we see each other as an integral part of of our symbiotic earth as a part of this earth as that we're all in the same pirate spaceship earth so to say that it actually gives us more freedom more basic rights and some of the things that that I read from the pirate book the be more pirate the first one was that you know health and well-being insurance and equality of not only gender equality and you know love who you love and be with who you are and that's you know you're there there's not this disparaging non-diverse type of environment where you're you're you know you're part of that organization and part of that team and you're also looked after in that respect and so those sdgs are for us and if we apply them understanding the exponential function as an individual by what we eat and how we move and how we create our organizations if we on the local level like you're saying we apply some of these these principles through the be more pirate which give us resilience which has sustainability in that and change this broken system we're actually adopting a lot of the things that are already in the sustainable development goals the more we do that more it puts us on this exponential curve to actually reaching them in time yeah to to to wait for the future to happen to us to wait for our governments to deliver the future for us that's what that's why we say sustainable development it's a solid infrastructure of development like a commercial housing residential park whatever it is an infrastructure that humanity can live off of and and that's what we need to get to that future which at the same time draws down climate change our greenhouse gas emissions and caps our planet from warming so i mean that that's how i see it and i'm very optimistic about it and i don't know if that answered your question but but i i truly believe so like when i talk about the sustainable development goals with people from the philippines the indigenous population from the philippines or people from tylin uh from bangkok that uh or from africa they're like what the hell we've never heard of the sustainable development goals what are these colors indigenous people they're like but you speak it you speak to them in a different way about resources and how they can have the same rights and equality and and things that people in the developed countries are in the western world have and in that process some different business models some different operating systems which fall fall in line with the development goals because it is truly a new global operating system there's there's if the countries who sign that which i don't think many of them fully understood it's a new global economic system a new global governance infrastructure laws rules at a much higher for human for humanity a level and if they understood that they're like uh what did we sign up for you know now you know i think that that's a really good point and i'm i'm glad you said about sort of testing out what um talking to people about them so my follow-up question would be how do you feel that they are received because i noticed that a lot in um there are a lot of is is a translation exercise for people sometimes um because when i hear goals i think oh there's a target there and just explaining that no this is about totally different models and this can take lots of different forms um and i always bring it because my work is about going into organizations and talking to them on a smaller scale they might have big ambitions relating to sustainability but this is about it always starts with the people in the room and what they think and believe and understand to be existing now and then what their current practices are so you gotta you kind of work with that and what's interesting is they'll often have a set of values or a set of strategy or principles and i go what do you understand by this what do you mean when we say we're all creative like what is creativity here i mean are you really creative or is it actually quite a conformist culture where conformity is rewarded in terms of bonus structures and stuff so breaking it down like that is so important and that's where i get and where i just prefer it to be a slightly lower level and we're talking about a big world plan because that whole gets lost in translation to people and they'll kind of glaze over and they'll go well here's another plan and i and just to say i'm not in i don't think i'm in conflict with you i'm sure that what is in detail in it is well thought through and probably does have a lot of the solutions that we need it's just a case of then how therefore are we going out to people and talking about this and that's actually why i've called then the follow-up book is called how to because actually i've noticed across all the work that i've done that's so much of the the the point of whether something is successful or not successful is in how it is done it doesn't matter if you can go and say we're going to build a hospital they're doing that here in the uk they're going we'll build some of those schools of all more hospitals and it's like well what kind of hospitals will they be will there be places where that they have space for friends and family to be in them are they hospitals that will be built out of sustainable materials how you are approaching all of this is more important and that includes how we talk about the problems that we have and why in fact it's the the underpinning of being a pirate as some as something that's successful because it's a story and it's a story that people can put themselves in and feel empowered by in a way that it's not telling them the system is broken while it is but it's but it's saying but you are the answer to this and not that you know i don't know some new technological gadget is the answer in a sense not that i mean that plays part of the solution but being able to step into that story own it and um that the story is a fun and engaging way to talk about change just grabs people's attention but that's a different tangent well no not not really i mean uh you mentioned it in the beginning and i think it ties in nicely to that uh i believe you use the term systemic literacy for sure you use literacy and um that which is just another form of education around where we're going the reason i ask you and and you answered it so nicely um the burning question is you would not believe how many people don't and don't ask themselves what's the future they don't have a plan when you ask them today or tomorrow or the next day it's different answer each time it's continually evolving and changing and that's okay but without some form of of discipline or plan or structure foundation form and i'm not i i'm about the least political or democratic i'm i mean if you saw me a couple weeks ago on my podcast i i definitely look like the blackbeard pirate the big long beard and people are like man you know it's not just the looks but also where i try to call bullshit and and i on what people say and how we we think about systems or organizations with a little bit different twist with more diversity with more you know try to try to remove the biases and try to get into the sense making about what we're saying or going most people really struggle with that question which for me listening to that uh is worrisome because right now we're we're experiencing these civil unrest this need for piracy this need for what the hell's going on with our systems nobody has a plan and so people are waiting for the future to happen to them they're waiting for it to be delivered to them that's not going to happen if we're waiting for trump to deliver the future for us we're definitely fucked yes so um and what you know whether wherever you lived probably is the same so uh as an individual as local and regional i'm full alignment with you we need to become more pirate and we need to make sure that we create the future we want to see we we enter that disruption we apply the things that are in the book and and and it's fun it's so damn fun and you can swear a little and you can be a little bit disruptive and you can have fun and there's such a community and and you can make the world a better place you can create that future that you would like to see because if you're waiting for your vote or your dollar to influence that systemic change boy you're going to be rip van winkle or somebody very disappointed waiting so long yeah i couldn't agree this is the best vehicle i found to do this and to talk about how to be part of the change and be part of the future my dad always used to say well when i tried to have conversations with him about the future he's like you're the only person who cares about this he's like most people just want to go on with their lives um and just you know make some you know look after their family make their money get a house you're you know obsessed with these big systemic questions um and no one else and i always thought that was very patronizing but um at the same time you know there was a point in that and i think that was also very much my thought when i was working in at the rsa and just feeling that we are in a bubble i know this is a bubble i know this is an echo chamber and we're reverberating the same thoughts back and forth across these walls and the same kind of people um and it's got to go bigger than this and it's got to and it's got to be a different vehicle um and that's why i've just loved the the sort of diversity that's come forward to be more quiet the people i get in my meetups and people's stories i've listened to have been so surprising i think sam was really surprised when the book um the responses to the book that he you know he thought he was writing it for millennials he was like the millennials have got the answer they're the young people they know about purpose they know we've got to do things differently and then the people that came forward were tenders to be older and and were people who'd worked in in institutions for a long time was so frustrated deep down but i didn't quite know how to find their voice to suddenly switch paths and go right i'm a pirate now um so yeah but that felt really hopeful i was like wow there was this really quiet sort of sway of people who need to be unlocked and um a lot of untap power a lot of it and i just want to figure out how to tap into it and sometimes you know it's working out the approach that you take some people respond better to um things when i present them in a more researchy sort of way like you know and hence i did a little bit of background research on why disobedience is useful and why it can get better outcomes and so that people go oh look i can understand that and that appeals to me um because it's it's rigorous and and some people love the story side of it as well and go right i'm done i'm in this like great um so yeah that's that's part of um the mission but i've i've been really um yeah i guess i've been really heartened by seeing responses to it and continuing to see them what does a world that works for everyone look like for you yeah i'm gonna come come back to this and this is my it's not something i really said before out loud um on any public but i think we we have to we it's more spiritual actually um we have to acknowledge the spiritual side of humanity um and that has to take at least equal priority to material needs and um and um yeah and every time i've seen that occur in in people the outcome tends to be better and you know just to be clear i'm not talking about religion i think people can be religious and not spiritual and people can be spiritual and not religious i mean in and it's such a hard thing to describe i've seen people do projects on this and not be able to get the language right around it and it's something that's personal and felt but you know a connection to the ecosystem of the the world and the the greater universe and humanity and um it allows people to be more peaceful i think in their endeavors and i don't see how we are going to um really overcome the greed and the competitive impulses that fuel violence um and and also i guess it's a lot of the what i've learnt or read a lot about in terms of why people come into conflict and part of conflict resolution studies and things is you know this how do you unpick trauma and the traumas that people have gone through on whether it's on a um a kind of personal level or on a perhaps more systemic level um and i um it was something that occurred to me many many years ago when i was i did study international relations because you're taught a very neoliberal um version of how the world functions um and that this is the system that's been created and it's because states are primarily sort of self-interested entities much like people are and i remember reading it because i was studying a lot of it through the lens of the cold war and also um the arab Israeli conflict i thought i felt or you know it was it was a research tangent that i went down and and kind of didn't get very far with it but our nations also deep much like people dealing with personal psychologies and personal traumas that are varying in different degrees so when i look at you know when i look at things like the arab Israeli conflict these are countries that have have um traumas built into the history of the nation and the emotional psychological memory of the nation that people bring in and it doesn't go you know so to look at them it's just well we we just want to get resources it's not that's not from what i've or everything that i read and everything that i experienced was not why they were behaving as they were behaving and so yeah so that's a very long answer to it to to really take into account everything that goes on i think that that is what for me would be a world that um works for everyone would be would have to be a shift in um a spiritual sense in sort of looking at acknowledging trauma as a root cause for a lot of the reasons why we do what we do there's a fabulous um scientist she was a fabulous scientist Lynn Margolis she was Carl Sagan's first wife and she came up with the the term symbiotic earth and it's a different form of compassion collaboration a different way of feeling as an integral part of of our earth and in some respects i i i feel and sense that but when you mention that you know neoliberalism there's also neo darwinism those are bullshit they don't exist it's not there is no natural selection survival of the fittest only the strong survive that's not how our world works um the those those are other views of very competitive and only the strong survive it's really those who flourish who are resilient and and uh also what you described as a form of resilience mentally um psychologically physically uh resilience as well which which which bounce back those are ones who cooperate collaborate and uh join together uh swashbuckling pirates on spaceship earth um to solve our problems um uh i i love the framework i love the book i i'm excited to to get my copy in september 2020 when the new book how to be more pirate comes out um already reviewing a little pre pre gift and um i i'm i'm so excited and i want to talk to you again when maybe in a year when you've had some more workshops from the new book under under your belt and to hear how it has gone i have one last question for you and it's more of i'm asking you to give my listeners another gift if you could go up to each one of them individually or to all the people that you desire in this world and depart some wisdom of empowerment a tool a skill or some learning that you have whether it's from the book or something that has really empowered your life or way of thinking what would that sustainable takeaway for the entrepreneur the inventor the the activists of the nglb what would you depart with them and say wow damn i've never heard that before really helpful do you have something like that i don't know if what i will say will be something they've never heard before okay um because i think a lot of wisdom is recycled wisdom um the thing that has most helped me and i would say not so much maybe to the entrepreneur but to the average person and really what i'm what i think be more prior appeals to and what we're trying to activate is the average person who has a lot more power than they think they have is to say is to is to persuade them and convince them to take to take a bold leap of some description because it isn't about the outcome actually it's about the effect it has on you the second i stopped trying to protect myself necessarily from things ending or falling apart whatever things got better and i had beginnings that i couldn't have imagined possible had i not done that and that might seem like the most basic piece of wisdom in the world it's not revolutionary but you i mean it is in every single workshop i've ever done people are like i'm afraid and you identifying a risk that you could take that where the consequences would are perhaps make you feel afraid but aren't going to be life devastating for sure um and doing that and just going i'm going to be i'm going to be bold i'm going to hope that the net appears um i think is one of the most is the power most powerful it's the beginning of the book a new book about um the mutiny mindset is that you've got to um step into the unknown a little bit thank you so much that was so wonderful do you have anything else you would like to depart to our listeners before i tell you goodbye um other than pre-order our book or buy it whenever this comes out um well just to say that you know being more pirate is a is a community as much as it is a book and an idea um so we are and it's beautifully cyclical in the way that it works and that every time you know i run workshops for companies but i use the material from our community i use the stories i keep myself in the trenches listening to what people are doing with the struggles that they have the triumphs that they have what they've managed to overcome the kind of rules that they are trying to break um and that's what informs all the content for the workshops and stuff so it's so valuable so i am always open to having conversations with people and talking to them about it if they've got stories to share so that's all over on our website and you can you know just sign up get involved join a meet-up so i do have one one last question for you does the next book have a pirate thing like this a dead man skull uh on that so because now when i'm when i'm at the un conferences or dovelas i either got to get a pin or something i've got to i've got to let everybody know that i'm on there to be more pirate and kind of disrupt these very boring uh meetings that they have and that we need we need to get a little more um disruption and pirates uh joining the the group yeah the the the new book doesn't have that i mean this is a it's a bigger conversation about branding and um you know between separate publishers and that sort of thing but you know the the front cover the first book was intended to be to be book face to be pirate face that you could use in kind of a modern 21st century jolly wadja a fly or flag what i'm going to do is create oh i'm in the process of doing a few new things ahead of the book launch but creating a sort of little downloadable badge that you could use on your website or somewhere to kind of just indicate you're on team pirate i love it i love it thank you so much alex and i look forward to speaking to you again very soon please take care and much success with the book and i'll put the links in the show notes and everybody please go in pre-order thank you so much walk thank you appreciate it bye