 Hello and welcome to Pookey Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, why is it so hard to talk about feelings with the people we love? And I'm in conversation with Jen, Dunning and Mark Baker. Hi, my name's Mark and I co-authored a book with Jennifer about offering emotional support. We've both got a background of volunteering for an emotional support charity called Samaritans. And we have a sort of very broad background. I've looked into mindfulness quite a lot and sort of travelled the world and I have an experience, but I have a past career as a nurse, so I had a class of three year olds. So I've got quite a broad range that I bring to offering emotional support and looking at how we do that with people we know in comparison to people we don't know. Yes, so I'm Jen Dunning. My background is education. So I worked as a teacher at the secondary school for quite a number of years, whereas a special educational needs coordinator with particular interests, I suppose, in the mental health side of things. And I then retrained to become a specialist assessor teacher. So I do that and I also work with children in care, overseeing, intervention side things. And our question today is why is it so hard to talk about feelings with the people we love? Did you want to kick us off, Jen, and share a few kind of opening thoughts on that? I suppose the idea is that often when we're trying to talk to people and particularly our family and who it is that we want to talk to or ask for advice, we find it particularly difficult, I think, to give an unbiased view, an unbiased opinion. I certainly see it from my point of view as a parent, also in my time as being a teacher, that when people want to talk to you about certain things, they're already coming up to you with a particular angle, a particular reserve of how you're going to accept what they're saying. Sometimes you can just know people too well, and you have roles where the vouchers book came from Jennifer having a discussion with her child about internet safety, and then it led on to a whole lot of different situations that realized that the child found it very difficult to open up about a difficult situation she was in. And that to me was because sometimes you're just too close and you know people too well, and you have like specific outcomes that you think might happen. Now, when you don't have that proximity, that closeness, it does enable you to be able to offer a support that sort of looks more holistically. You can be further away, you can see that you can see the woods for the trees to use an analogy. So I think that would be why mainly we feel that the offering emotional support is very different. It's much harder when you're when you're closer to someone. An example, I can give I can be quite open about this my dad passed away recently and offering emotional support in my role as a Samaritan is completely different to offering emotional support to my mother, my brother and my family, because I'm engrossed in that as well I'm grieving, I'm having all these emotions and we know what other people are going through so it does make it just that little bit more difficult and you also fall into habits within families and roles as well. And it's like trying to break down those roles when you're supporting those that are loving and close to you. So a little bit like Jennifer had that role with her daughter, and I think gentlemen can explain that story better than I explained it. I'm happy to talk about that, Jennifer. Yeah, yeah, so it was this. Well, we was probably about three weeks into the lockdown. So school had some brilliant videos over two years about internet safety and I've gone through the lessons that they've sent over to her. And then, as part of the routine I just spend sort of 10-15 minutes with each of my children every evening just for that little bit of downtime, they were hugging, seeing what they want to talk about. And, and this particular time she was just really sort of quite nervous, not her usual self she'd been absolutely fine for the previous weeks this was sort of coming out of the blue really. So she says mum I've got something to tell you. And, you know, all sorts of things flashed through your mind because I was looking at her face thinking okay what's going on you know and the real sort of fear coming into me thinking oh no what's happened. And she says, I've done something I shouldn't have done. And of course this is sort of building up the panic in me even more now. And then she said I went on an internet website that I wasn't supposed to have gone on. So, I was like, right, okay. Can you tell me about it what was it about anyway, uncovering it all it was very it was just a case of she went on the website that was completely harmless but she hadn't got permission to go into this website she just clicked on the link. And I said, then why didn't you tell me about this, you know when did this happen she says well it happened a week ago. But why didn't you tell me what what is it there's over this week that you've not told me because I thought you'd be angry. So it was her judgment of me thinking that would be my initial reaction because it was a rule that you don't come things you shouldn't turn, which stopped her for the whole week so for that whole week. And she had hidden it to the point where I didn't even know that she'd done it her behavior was absolutely normal. Every evening when we'd have a particular time with each other she just nothing raised and all of a sudden, one week after she felt that she had the confidence to be able to tell me. And, and when I spoke to Mark about this I just thought I wonder, you know this was so innocent but how many other times do we have this situation where we have got something we want to tell somebody. But we just don't know how to start or we think that the person would be angry. And of course we see it in in the volunteer that we have this. We said well do you have people you can talk to. Well I have family I have friends, but I can't talk to them, you know it's a very common line that we often hear, because they don't want to upset their friends or the family or they'll just try to solve things for them. And so again when and Mark and I were talking about it it was a case of why is that everybody's always trying to solve problems I can't we just stop and listen and that's where our conversation started to get more and more of like okay so what role are we playing. Who is the parent who is the adult who is the child why are we always judgment and it's sad that a 10 year old already has an opinion that stops her from saying something which is quite innocent. Compared to other children, teenagers, adults where they're desperate to tell people things, but they don't know who to say it they don't know how to start it. They don't know what that person's reaction is going to be, and that can be terrifying and then of course you lock that back up, close the lid. And then either the anxiety builds up or it's something that will like a jack in the box it will come out at some point so when we was trying to come up with ideas well what could we do what could we come up with which would just allow that opportunity where it's managed it's it's supported in a non judgment way so that even an adult for their child could pick it up. Or a teacher or a staff member or a youth member anybody could have this tool that they could just pick it up and work with it and that child knows that they'll be listened to. That's where it came from really. So tell us about the book maybe mark if you would outline a little bit about the book and how it works and. Yeah, I think it pretty much follows on from what Jen says it's a quite a good way of breaking habits and cycles. And we always fall into habits with our family. I'll give you a quick example and then I'll tell you about the book like when I was at university one of my, one of my housemates, his dad came to visit when they left they did a really big hug and said see you later son and off they went and then when, when, when he left I was like, Oh, I don't think that happens with with me. I was like my family we don't hug. I wonder why that is and he said well it's always going to be like that until you change it. So the next time they came I hug it was a little bit awkward. My parents always shown love, but we just didn't do it in that way. But then it started to become normal. And, and this is what the vouchers book does is it enables another way of changing a habit of breaking a habit and doing something different. So what what the vouchers book is. It's a book full of about 12 vouchers and eat what what you can do is you can give it to somebody who feel might be in need of emotional support. And they can then cut the voucher out of the book and if they want to fold it up, and they could write your name on the back and who is from if they want to and they can give it to in person or they can hide it somewhere. So when you find the voucher, and when you find the voucher, you know what the child's or the person who uses it, what their emotional needs are, and what's required of you exactly to do. So it's a little bit like, I want this to change a hug. So I gave my dad a hug and gave my mom a hug. And that's like 15 years ago and it's just normal now because that that cycle change. So that's sort of what vouchers does. It's enables you to ask for something that may be a little bit difficult to ask for a little bit different from, from the usual because like we said at the beginning, one of the most difficult things about asking family and support and family is the habits and the roles that you've felt fell into like I'm the child and you're the adult and I think you had had a podcast on this before but like the transactional analysis parent adult child you have those roles. And it sort of enables it enables a changing of roles to buy had given those vouchers it can put the children in control and powers them. And that was that was the idea so Jennifer wrote, wrote the vouchers. And we came up with the idea of calling it vouchers and focusing on that out in the middle of vouchers and pulling that out so that the vouchers are helping with that emotional ouch. And are people using it Jen. And they tend to be sort of more anecdotal responses that people have because they're always very personal, the feedback that we've been getting. And so a couple of examples. And then she privately messaged me later on say thank you so much my 15 year old we've been trying to get her into counseling, we've been trying to get her as much help as possible. And nothing's where she's just she just clams up she just can't talk she's not in the place but we know she needs help. And then she says I gave her the book, and I handed it to her. And she says my daughter just flicked it and just burst into tears and gave her a huge hug, because it wasn't the fact that she even started using the vouchers it's the fact that she was gifted something to say, when you're ready. I can be that person to listen to. So that was one really beautiful story that we thought wow, you know that's just so heartwarming. And another one only the other week, the family had bought the vouchers based on school recommendations. And they've got it at home, and for a couple of weeks, it just stayed there wasn't touched wasn't used and thought, oh, all right then. Well we've tried, never mind. And then the first day back after lockdown started going back to school first half day back at school child comes home goes up to their room. And within, I suppose within within the hour comes back down with a voucher asking for a hug. And the parents just over the moon because they've never had their child who's got special educational needs never have that child or come ask for a hook to begin with, but to actually reach out and ask for something was a massive step for that family knowing that. Okay, I hope might not identify the emotion, but it means that they want something from them and they could just give that hook so again. They're just, you know, they're just lovely little anecdotal moments that we're getting that they won't put on Amazon, when they buy it, because they're so personal and that's what we wanted we wanted people to have that personal experiences with it and each voucher would bring something very different for them it might work it might not. Yeah, so we're getting some really beautiful stories coming through now. And why do you think it's easier for people to bridge that gap and begin to start those kind of interactions using the vouchers than it would be to just ask what is it that you think that they're doing that it yeah that offers that support. I would say, because this is often what Mark and I say to people the first step of the vouchers is actually gifting the book by gifting the book you are saying to that person I am here for you, whether you want to use that so I am here for you in a non verbal community way. There's some beautiful quotes and little details in the book, as well just to remind ourselves of why listening is important and patience and giving time. And then just it's that conversation starter the vouchers aren't saying I want to talk to you. They're asking for something very specific very small and it predominantly focuses around time, just wanting that little bit of time or a little bit of contact or, and I think one of the vouchers is, is, I know I've done something wrong. Please just listen to me, because often if somebody's done something wrong they want to tell somebody but they don't want to be then having the earache of being told off when they've already gone through it in their head would have been told off elsewhere. So it's just because I just want to tell you just listen. I think there's there's something there isn't there about knowing that someone's going to be in the right frame of mind, sort of ready to listen because it kind of struck me you said in the conversation that you had with your daughter that kind of prompted this whole exploration for you. And that was part of a regular routine of listening that you you had, and that, although it sounds like you maybe beat yourself up a little bit that that conversation couldn't happen sooner. But I can imagine in lots of families that conversation would never have happened because it was only because your daughter knew presumably that you were ready to listen at those times in the evening that she perhaps built up the courage to start that conversation. And do I'm interested as well about how obviously you both work with the Samaritans and volunteer there. And I think it's interesting that sometimes people do feel able to pick up the phone or actually increasing if I'm people want to use kind of the digital technologies to to link up with someone who is completely anonymous and I find myself often advising from schools and people who work with children that if children aren't yet ready to have a face to face conversation that they might feel more able to approach someone like Childline or Samaritans. And it's sometimes hard to put my finger on exactly why it's just something one of those things that we know works and so we recommend it but I wondered if either of you had any thoughts on that maybe mark if you had any. Yeah, I think it's because it's a safe place to talk in like Jennifer touched on earlier is that people say I don't want to worry my family I don't want to worry and put panic on on somebody else and it's something I can quite relate to like you don't want to pass that burden on, whereas the person you're speaking to has doesn't have doesn't have a specific outcome like perhaps if you told your parent or a brother that you were having a really difficult time, they might, they might want to try and fix it for you, whereas it's Samaritans. So we just try to help people make the most informed decision they can we help them explore their options and discuss and find out how they're coping. And, and it's very much about the person and solely on what they're going through and what they're experiencing. And, and it's very difficult to do that when you're in a family setting because like I said earlier about my dad passing, you've got those all these other dynamics that are going on, whereas the dynamic that you have I guess within Childline and Samaritans is that the person you're speaking to at Samaritans or Childline their complete focus is on your emotions and what you're going through and your experiences. And I think it's, I think the most, the most I can only talk from the Samaritans perspective, but the main idea is a little bit like the book, it's about empowering, empowering people to find the option that's best for them and exploring and making whatever they decide to do, it's the most informed decision they can make. And, and we do that just by supporting and being a listening ear. And it's Samaritans people know that that we're we're pretty everything's confidential to Samaritans as long as we as long as we don't know where you are. And we want, and we want to keep everyone safe, but that people know it's a safe place to talk and open up without without any judgment as well. And it, and as much as we would try not to judge those closest to us. It's very, very, it's very difficult. And, and at Samaritans I'd also say we don't know enough to judge we might only speak with somebody for half an hour and say they're 40, there's 39 years, 364 days and 23 and a half hours that we don't know about their and we don't know enough to judge and, and to try and find outcomes and solutions. However, with our families, and those closest to us, they know, they know, much more they know, almost all of your life. So we can find those answers and give you the solutions and one final thing the most thing that we find in by empowering people to find their own answers, they're much more likely to action those findings, those options, then if you tell someone what to do, or sort of persuade someone to do because your persuasion can wear off, whereas if the person finds their own options and finds their own solutions, it's much more likely to be carried through to a resolution. And I think that's perhaps why the organizations like child, Childline and Samaritans are quite, quite powerful in the service they offer. I think it's always one of the hallmarks of really skilled practitioners is that ability to listen and empower and enable rather than to just advise. I think that we often feel like we want to fix things don't we and actually being able to step back and actually enable someone to find their own way forwards. And I find sometimes that the conversations where the other person goes away feeling that I've done the most for them is when I feel I've done the least when you've kind of acted literally as a sounding board and ask the occasional prompt. I wonder what we can all learn to enable those conversations then because it feels like maybe obviously you've created a tool here for saying I need this conversation but then there's the next bit isn't there, which is having that that conversation I wonder if either of you had thoughts on perhaps some of the skills perhaps that you've picked up in your role as sort of supportive listeners and that might bode well for families or those working with children as well. Which of you want to go first on that one. Well with when the book came out quite a number of them as friends often do they sort of buy the book out of support. And, but in my particular situation because quite a number of friends who are educational base and bought it. They said, you know, this is a great idea but why can't we have something for school. Why can't we use something that would be really practical in school but we can't have a voucher that says I need a hug, we need to have something more specific. So, we went back to the drawing board and we worked with some fantastic practitioners in a number of schools to come up with what would be appropriate. So we can expand sort of how many people we could try and help as much as possible. We called it the schools edition, but actually it can be the youth work edition. It can be anybody's edition really. But it just widens the type of methods of non verbal communication that you can reach out for. And just give people those extra ideas, and we're not precious about what we've created so everybody who buys it they get unique code and they can go on the website and download as many vouchers as they need and as they want. Because our aim is just to try and start that conversation as many people as they want. And as Mark and yourself said it's about to the extent that you want to talk about voucher allows you to say as much as you want or as little as you want, it's the empowerment as much as possible so that that child remains in control the whole time. And I suppose it's going back to that transactional analysis again as adults or as carers we often put ourselves in the parent role. It's trying to be a tool to bring whoever the listener is into the adult role, the impartial, the listening, the non advice, the exploring of what their options are, that the person given the voucher, the child, even if it's an adult, their role means that they are being listened to impartially. I think the added skill is like you said, is about demonstrating that you're listening, really demonstrating, repeating the person's words back, giving them the time and space to say what they want to say and allowing them to feel their feelings. That's the main skills that this book hopefully offers. We've got a website that supports it and that shares some of the listening skills that you can use. And it's very important that when you're supporting people, it's very much about them and what they're going through and their issues. It's a really important skill. It's very easy to, and it's very easy when you're supporting family to go, yeah, do you remember when I went through something similar that when I was in my 20s? Yes, see I got through it. That's nice and you're trying to help, but that isn't helping the person explore their feelings and what they're going through and their emotions. It's hard as it is, it is the right thing to do when you're supporting someone, if I'm, is to keep it very much focused on their emotions, their feelings, their experiences. And there's a really nice saying that I read, I can't remember where it is, feelings got one purpose and one purpose only, and that's to be felt. And once it's been felt, it's done, you have to give that feeling the space to feel and be felt. And that's what that does by keeping it focused on them and allowing them to share their experiences and feel their feelings. And that's one of the major tips I think this book enables and allows to happen one, and if you can use that skill of reflecting using the person's words back with them to give them the space to feel, I think it's that's one of the main skills. Do you think we've got worse kind of listening and creating that sort of safe space for for feeling or do you think we've become more aware of the need to do it. I think I'd say people are very aware of what they need to do. And I think certainly over the last year, a lot of emphasis is being made schools to develop these relationships. And they're given all these theory names. Well, let's have this training on this. But actually, it's far too complicated. When you're in the chalkface, we just need something very simple and it is just about relationships just stopping being there, being present in the moment at that time for that person. So I think we're aware, but I feel that there's too many complicated names that are just attached to everything. Certainly when Mark and I were going through this book and then when we created the schools there, and we were saying, right, well, these are the irons and this is linked. We're amazing ourselves, but all that links to that and that links that that wasn't our intention at all. When we wrote it, we just wanted something so simple so basic that people could just pick it up and anybody could run with it a child could understand it and they could pass it to another child. So just by doing that, you're developing those skills without a training course. You're just being there for that other person, which is, you know, it's just a gift. And do you think we get better at that with practice. I guess it's how often you practice it. I would definitely say, the longer you volunteer with the Samaritan, the more skillful you get at it. So it is practice, skillful with supporting people through any situation. Yes, it's quite hard to say really because I don't know how often people have to use it in their everyday lives at like in schools and I'd imagine in work settings and volunteering settings. I think you use it a lot. And it would be a great skill by the home edition would be great to use all the time and it would be a great way of refining those great tool to refine those skills. I think people are getting better of it. If I had to say, I would say, yes, I think people are much more emotionally aware. I, I've gotten who I think very emotionally aware from from school and, and life. And I think from when I went to school in comparison to his schooling and hit the way he is I think he's very emotional much more emotionally aware. And I think that's because of the setting that schools are like is my guess I haven't really been in a school much recently but by what I see of children their age they do seem much more emotionally aware. What do you think Jen this is your your kind of bag do you think that we are. Yeah, how do you think we're doing here do you think there's a lot of work to do are we are we doing better than we were. And I think it goes into bits and starts really. And I think we can have a promotion of where. So, this whole at the moment this whole business of is catch up about the academic side of things or is catch up about the emotional side of things because we've had not had those social interactions with people. All of a sudden, the emphasis will stop for everybody, and then a new fad will start. So I think it comes around in in, yeah fits and starts really years ago my my absolute favorite course to teach was the personal social and mental health education and that side of things. And the impact of that just those hours for those children at that particular time was massive. Then of course it wasn't made statutory, because the emphasis was more on the numeracy and the literacy side of things. And now it's coming back again, or we need to have these sessions we need to have these words. And like with Mark saying about his nephew, the words are being banded about, but are they words or are their actions, and is it going to really be used for the next 1520 years, or is it just until we feel that everything's okay again, and then we can turn our focus on to this, and then if, if we don't keep practicing safe we don't keep trying we can lose those skills we can lose how to listen, because we haven't got time, we've got the next thing that we need to do. I haven't got time to listen and to listen to what your options and what your story is at the moment. I've got to go off, and I've got to go and fix something else now because that's the pressure that I've got in my life at the moment. But hopefully we can also slow down a little bit and have that emotional stability and that that chance to have those conversations. But again if it's not encouraged if it's not upheld. I think we could be a loss of losing it again. It's a challenge isn't it and I think the other thing that I wonder about is how it can be quite difficult to create that space, both within busy times but also when we can't see a clear outcome so you know one of the things that you've both talked about is the how to create those kind of emotional safe spaces and to be present when a child or an adult indeed might be distressed but you wouldn't be necessarily telling them what to do and there might not be a clear outcome from that conversation or from that moment that you have with them. And that that can be a bit challenging can't it in a in a busy context because how do we know if what we're doing is having an impact and what would you advise there do you have any thoughts on that. Because I've been reading a little bit about about not focusing on the outcome, but just doing the best you can in each each and every moment, for example, not focusing on winning the game tennis focus on playing the best point you can over and over again and the result and the outcome takes care of itself, but like building a wall. Focus on the best brick that you can and lay the best brick you can over and over again. And I think if we just focus on the basics really well over and over and over again. The outcomes will take care of themselves and those basics are like I said, listening, keeping it focused on the other person and space to enable them to feel those feelings and if we can just do the basics and not overcomplicate it like Jen said. We, the outcomes will just take care of themselves and and the more I listen to that the more that makes makes sense we get we get a little bit outcome driven and then we start focusing on on our desires and really wanting this more but if we just do the basics well, we might get an even better outcome than what we were ever thinking. And if you try and think overthink and try and over engineer I don't think you necessarily always get what you want. But if you do the best you can in each moment that takes care of itself. So that's my theory on I don't know if that's what you think as well. Yeah, I think if you can deal with things there at the moment at the time, you're then not having to deal with the closing of the box and the emotions then for closing and hiding those feelings and and the experiences. And so when, when I was having a conversation with some colleagues of mine we were saying about how a number of services are adjusted crisis point themselves. We're saying how many services are just looking at the brown leaves of a tree. And they're so keen to remove the brown leaves of the tree and say oh look there's a green leaf over there. So let's look at that one take peel off the brown leaf. And then you just got the green leaves, rather than thinking hang on a minute those brown leaves are actually connected to a branch that is slowly dying. Why is that branch withering what is happening. And it doesn't come down to the trunk it actually comes down to the roots, what is happening to the roots what is happening in the soil. I think all too often we're constantly looking for, as Mark was saying the outcome. Let's try and fix the here and now, rather than dealing with the real roots and real issues and we can peel that back as much as possible to to put families to support it as much as as possible, or at the chalkface in schools or settings, where if something has happened that in that culture the environment of that place is we are here. We are going to listen rather than saying well, sorry you're not extreme enough for us to listen at the moment, come back when things are a little bit worse for you come back when you self harming gets that little bit harder for you come back when you've had a couple of outside attempts. That's not good enough, we need to hang on a minute. Let's go back to when you first have those thoughts. Let's go back to when that first started, and if we can get to that right to that beginning, and it could be something really small that's happened, or it could be something huge that's happened in that person's life, whatever it is. That's affected that soil that's affected that root and that's infected that tree. So if we can get into a society where we're working at the basics and even if we've got parents or carers who can't listen or can't hear was right at this moment. Maybe we know somebody else who's got those skills, and who has got that time at that particular moment to be able to listen, so that we're not having to put the lid on our emotions and hide it. We're just supported there and then if we can get that into into our everyday life into our everyday practice. Eventually, hopefully we'll have a, you know, a happier sort of neighborhood community society rather than waiting until we're at crisis point and then services can't support. There's plenty of examples on of that about dealing with it now in the, in the moment there's a, there's a really nice philosophy. It's a Taoist philosophy that says that in the West we've got it around the wrong way. We see as the future is in front of us, and the past is behind us, and we do that all the time. And we see we're always grasping for the next thing for the future and we want to do that. Whereas whereas in the Eastern philosophies they see the past as in front of you, and the future is behind of you, so behind you so you can look at what's happened in the past and learn from that. And you can choose to do the best thing you can in the now whether that's being kind to yourself, or, or getting support and given a voucher, or whatever. And based on what you do now that depends on what future lines up behind you. So we're not desiring and grasping and suffering because we're wanting this thing that we can see, we're just doing the best we can in the now. And there's an example of this I always think is in the prisons where they treat people with compassion. The idea that it lines up behind the people is one of less crime and less repetition of, of cream, if you treat people the same, based on their past behavior, and in your brutal to them in the prison, they're more likely to commit another crime in the past, and your power is always in the now and that's what that, that says that the, if you treat the roots, the leaves will take care of themselves to go back to, and keeping with that plant analogy. If a plant is well, we will change the environment we're putting near the sun, if it's not getting enough sun, we will move it and we nurture it, we need to do that with us as well. I wonder if either of you can talk just a little bit about how if we're to do that and kind of be more giving of ourselves and to listen and to care and to show that compassion, how we can do that in such a way that it doesn't end up detrimental to the power of the listening and the compassion because I think we all know people in our lives who are great at that and we gravitate towards and certainly in our school settings Jen I'm sure you're probably one of those people that the kids come to with their with their issues. And that's fantastic for the child to have someone they can rely on but it can become a burden for some people can't it and I guess you guys will have been trained in how you manage this because you do this support of listening all the time for Samaritans why would you give to parents care as teachers teaching assistants who might be wanting to do more of this compassionate listening and care. I think it's almost. If you've received about your struggle and to cope with that emotional support I mean on the website we've put some ideas and some signposting if you've received a voucher. It's something if somebody is gravitated to you because you're listening you're finding a hard, then you need to have those skills as well to then go on and seek that next person, but that extra support. And as part of Samaritan, there is a massive network of support when you're on a duty after the duty as part of training it's this huge network of support that's constantly there for you. I think in maybe in educational settings we need to have more of the idea of supervision. We have supervision in so many different jobs in so many different roles and when we're dealing and trying to support with people. We need to have that listening here. And I think it comes down to the idea that if we can start a little bit with one family and then that family gets used to listening. And then they reach out to another family and that family starts being good at listening. And then that family thinks hang on a minute that works really well I'll reach out to that next family. If we can just pass it all on little by little it's not one, you know, it's not a case of just attending a three hour training session go right there you go you're all trained you're, you're informed, you qualify to go. It's a case of okay so let's just try a little bit by little bit let's reach out to people until it becomes part of people blood, part of their bones. I suppose change the community very steadily so that everybody's soil is absolutely fine and if it's if it's not so good then we've got the strength to support somebody else who is struggling. Does that make some sense. Yeah it does make sense is there anything you'd add to that mark. Yeah, I think I think it's about being just being kind of in general and there was a really interesting study done on Buddhist monks against teenagers who are Buddhist monks and high school students in America. And they found that the high school students in America were were much more caring towards their peers than the Buddhist monks were around about 15 16. And when they asked the monks and the masters about that they was like, well yeah but first of all they need to know how to care for themselves and once they can fully care for themselves, then they'll be in a better position to care for everyone. And that's like that when they're 18 and when they finish this that they've got 30 they've got 60 years of their life left where they can then know how to care for everyone. And, and I think that's the same with us as well. If we, if we can root the kindness and the, the listening skills into the education system and just keep it simple, the listening skills, reflecting, clarifying and trying to understand the other person. So when, when, when people leave school and then they're in adulthood, we have a whole generation now that can support people and support each other and support everyone. About what that said that, you know, first of all, just treat people to be kind to themselves and the rest will take care of its itself and yeah, yeah, so it goes back to education again, it being a real fundamental part of it, and it's not really it should be, it should be part of, like the math, English and science is, is that important to the well being of, of people's lives, the amount of money it will save in the long run for the health service and for all the other things that go on would be massive. So, so it, yeah, that that's the key for me is the education and making it normal, absolutely normal. And then having the time to do that from a young age. Yeah, just that one, one extra minute or two extra minutes could be the world of difference for everybody around so just having that time, even funding, lots of additional funding won't help with schools unless staff, everybody in the school has that extra time. It's one of the things I find myself reflecting on often with staff who want to better help the children in their care, and saying actually it's not even about having lots and lots of time is it's about the quality of that time and a child knowing that maybe just for five minutes in that week. They had your absolutely undivided attention, they were the most important thing in your world for a moment for some children that's really like affirming and life changing if they don't get that from anyone else any other time. Yeah, the point. Yeah, it's a quality over quantity sometimes isn't it. And I always think that the end of an episode is a really important moment to leave any final thoughts with people. What thoughts would you like people to go away with this is a moment to bring up anything that you maybe didn't get a chance to say thus far or something that you'd like to kind of repeat and plant firmly in people's minds as they go about their day. Maybe we'll start with you Mark. Right, yeah, I think it's just keep it simple I think it's the lesson of it. There's so many labels and and things that get get bandied around and we don't really need to know the labels it all comes down to just being kind, compassionate, grateful for what grateful and just listening and and when and when someone's in need of support, keep the focus on them and if you need support, find the focus so that the focus can be on you afterwards. And that links back to the Samaritans if we're supporting a difficult call, we would all our focus would be on that caller everything everything about it, but we know the moment after that calls finished. If it's a really difficult call we need the emotional support that the emotional support will then be there for us. So it's like when that person needs support, support them with everything you've got listen, keep it all on them. And then finding support for yourself after, after that and then the world gradually saw itself out but keep it simple. Great advice and how about you Jen what would you like to leave people with. Yeah, I absolutely agree keep everything simple we don't need clever gimmicks we don't need clever terminology, we just need to be here in the present. If we want to be physically healthy we need to be mentally healthy and to be mentally healthy. Yeah, your soul needs to be healthy. So really go back to the absolute basics and to be able to do that you just need to have time.