 Everybody joining us. I'm sure we're going to have more folks rolling in. We'll just wait. Well, I guess it's just six o'clock now. And we have, let's see, we've got maybe as commissioners, we can just wave for a second when I'm Kasha chair of the parks commission. We've got Stephanie. Andrew Lincoln. And I think we are missing Emily, but I'm sure she will be on soon. And then for anybody who doesn't know, we also have some park staff with us tonight we have Alec, who I think most people know and Kara. Any other parks staff with us right now. Okay. Well, I'm sure more folks will join us. Let's get started with at least the cash. I'm getting a feedback. I don't know if it's somebody else. I guess the best practice would be mute yourself if you're not talking with this many people and maybe that would take. Yeah, I think that's helpful. Did that go away. Okay, great. So let's go ahead with the December 13 agenda and November 15 minutes and while people are joining we can keep take care of that little piece of business. And I get a motion. I'll make a motion to prove last month's meeting minutes and tonight's agenda. Right second. Stephanie seconds great. All in favor. Hi. And since we do have a bigger career tonight if you don't mind keeping yourself muted. If you're just logging on. And then if you're bandwidth is struggling you can always turn your video off to make things a little bit clearer for you. Thank you. And then we, I do in the minutes I do like to keep track of who attends each of our meetings. So I have the commissioners and staff here. If everybody could maybe drop the names of who's, you know, especially because we might have two or three people watching from a single computer, if you could just drop your name into the chat. And then Stephanie, can I give you the job of storing everybody's names. Thank you for that. Perfect. Thank you. That would be helpful. Thanks everybody. I still don't see Emily here I just texted to see if she's having trouble joining but Lincoln do you want to go ahead and get started. Sure. Yep, we definitely can get started. So. Yeah, Kasia, did you want to share your screen or do you want me to share my screen and then we could switch here. Okay, Stephanie, I emailed the president, not to give you too many jobs. I also I emailed you the slides you mind sharing your screen. You probably can't capture names at the same time. Yeah, let me find it and then I'll share my screen. Okay, perfect. Okay. I'll just I'll just go ahead while Stephanie's doing that and get us all oriented. Thanks everybody for coming tonight it looks like we're almost at 30 attendance which I think in my memory is the biggest meeting we've had so far this this year. So thanks for coming out. I just wanted to give a quick overview of the management process for Hubbard and North Branch to date. So it's been a year long effort here if you haven't been tracking us so far we started last summer I believe with a citywide survey, the department put out. Perfect great yeah I guess if you want to flip to the next slide that's what I'm talking on now Stephanie thanks. And yeah, even before I get into what we've done I just want to zoom out and talk about for a moment why we manage. Our mission here is ensuring that our parks are accessible forever for everyone so it's a big mission but that's that's what we're trying to do here and last year we started this by writing a plan for Blanchard Park which some of you on this call were a part of Blanchard with Vermont master naturalists, and we did a survey there in a plan, and then we moved our sites to Hubbard and North Branch combined. And we use the, you know some of the results from the citywide survey that had 1300 respondents. And, you know that that survey along with the more specific survey about Hubbard and North Branch looked at what people were using doing in the parks. So what was bringing them there also what was keeping some folks away from the parks, or what was a barrier for entry for some folks so a lot of good, you know responses there and that was a digital format for Hubbard and North Branch specifically we had a dozen guided walks. And these were, these were widely attended and we went through the many different zones of the parks, if you remember we kind of broke up both Hubbard and North Branch into these zones to kind of help people think about, you know, management in locations. And I'm getting a little getting another speaker here, everyone doesn't mind me. Since 2010 that the Vermont Constitution has been changed. I think you are in control of the new everybody. We'll mark a new congressional session and we'll have new representation in the Senate. It comes as Senator Patrick Leahy is stepping down from politics. My computer says it's coming from Paul. Well, we can listen to the news. across the finish line, avoiding a shutdown. He steps back from Washington after all those years where Congress wasn't so divided. On a 5th of September, Tuesday, gridlock on the streets of Washington is especially down at the Capitol outgoing Senator Patrick Leahy looks out on the National Mall from his corner pro temp. Does anyone know Paul? He says gridlock in Congress has gone to worst too. What can be done to restore trust and faith? Alec, I think you're the meeting host. I think you should be able to. Okay, perfect. It seems to gone, gone quiet. So that was a little bit of the six o'clock news update, but I'm going to pivot back here to the parks. And yeah, so we did the, we did the walks and the talks and we got people out in the field and we also did this digital survey element. And then we did sort of this community community open house feel at North Branch. Some of you remember where we had different tables set up with a commissioner and we talked about the whole parks and you could kind of go from table to table and give specific comments on each park zone. So we partnered with the conservation commission and we hired a UVM field naturalist student student to do a, this is a graduate student Erica Hample who did a fantastic ecological survey wall to wall of Hubbard and North Branch Park and we have those mapped. And it's, you know, Erica not only did this work but she also took people out, you know, lots and lots of people showed up for these guided field walks that Erica did as part of the mob pillar place program. So that was really a fantastic way to celebrate the park. And then we've had these series of meetings where, you know, these, the Erica presented their findings, and then we also discussed a draft plan objective in October. And last month was a discussion of the draft actions. And, and now we're, you know, we're here tonight to hear from you all about the your specific comments on the draft that we posted. And I just want to, you know, I'll pass it over to Kasia in a moment but I just want to say that this, the whole process has really been inspiring for me just to see how many people are passionate in Montpelier about the parks and the different, you know, experiences and years of use everyone shared and I really feel like this year has been a celebration for Hubbard and North Branch, and it's just great to see so many passionate people come out and talk about how they use the park so excited to hear what everybody has to say tonight. And with that I'm going to pass it over to Kasia to talk about a little bit of how tonight is going to flow. Thanks Lincoln, and I'll echo that it's been really great to have so many people participating in this and not just sharing feedback but also asking great questions and approaching this as a learning opportunity and learning about the forest and connecting with other people across the community. And I think that that person has been really fantastic. Tonight. Right now we have basically the process the way this has been working as we've collected community feedback and and a variety of ways like Lincoln talks about. We worked through the goals as a commission, and kind of the big picture and then work through the action table. And what we have right now. The final product that we're creating in the management plan similar to what we did for Blanchard will have an intro and description of the parks. This objectives and action table which is kind of the meat of the plan that says this is what we want to do and how we're going to do it. And then also lots and lots of background information including Erica's natural communities inventory which is like 30 pages of natural inventory about the parks. Deeds that have been transferred through the years a lot of historic documentation that about the parks. But what we're zeroing in on tonight as the objectives and actions table. And so there are some common opportunities obviously tonight. We are going to be looking discussing North Branch first and then Hubbard. For each of the parks we've divided the goals up into kind of these buckets of people management goals goals that address how people relate to the parks and use in the parks, and then kind of nature and education goals. And we simply did that just for the ease of discussion and grouping things together so we can make sure that everybody and all the topics have plenty of time. I please keep to comments to two minutes or less as we go through here just to make sure various people have time to speak. We really want to hear from a range of people and so really support people who's maybe ideas haven't been heard or a topic that we haven't touched on yet, speaking up and coming forward. And also, those people who have had an opportunity to say something kind of stepping back and letting others share their thoughts as well. In addition to tonight there's also a form online it's through Survey Monkey. And this is just a way to accept comments as well digitally so if you have friends or family or whatnot who aren't here or you leave this meeting and you have things that you want to contribute there is that online survey. I'm going to go. Emily, could you drop the links into the chat so that people can get to grab them. The first link there is for online comments. And then I also wanted to note that we have a little bit of a presentation tonight but the action table is pretty, pretty comprehensive and it's many pages long so we can't really put all of it into a PowerPoint. And so, as we go through this tonight, if you can review the information on the parks page of the city website the staff have been doing a great job keeping that up to date. The full plan is there, and you can get all the details and I really recommend opening that up and using that as we follow along tonight. And with that, let's kick it over to Lincoln to talk about North Branch. Okay, so I'm going to talk about part one of North Branch, which is sort of the people oriented goals, if you will. And there are three of these and, and again I'll just go big picture about some of the feedback we got overall in our outreach about North Branch and a big one was this need for more river access the desire to, you know be able to swim and just like have more wildlife viewing places that relax by by the river. People love the multi use trails. They're out there is, you know, strong support for for biking year round and a strong grooming effort year round for for biking and skiing running hiking are all their activities in solitude that people love about the park we did hear that. And the industry and specifically people on foot we're feeling excluded on multi use trails and, you know, we heard the need for for more walking terrain as well. And people appreciate that there were, this was a space where dogs are needing to be on leash, and they could bring their dogs and they felt like, you know, comfortable taking a taking a walk with their dogs knowing other dogs can be leashed. They love, you know, people really love the accessibility of the river trail is a wide path with a mellow grade. So the three. So that's just big picture overall the three goals we're going to kind of jump into right now are goal number two which is increased communication and education of trail users and park policy etiquette and multi use trail safety. So the big objective here that we're trying to kind of use to measure whether we succeed in this goal would be. An increased feeling of safety and enjoyment of multi use trails with more signage in the park entrances intersections and perhaps using social media platforms. So we're planning quick overview of actions would be to collaborate with the Montpelier Youth Conservation Commission to help with outreach and just trail safety messaging and best use etiquette. We want to maybe create some slow zones at intersections, especially coming into the the main river, the main rivers riverside trail and use signage to just have more explicit policy surrounding dog leashing and like, you know, just waste cleanup standards. So we do signing, you know, along the along the trail and provide pump track also, you know, prohibiting motorized vehicles in the pump track and along the river trail and the whole park. And also making paper maps more available is part of this part of this action and getting those out towards, you know, into the community. So that's a little bit about that goal and then we're moving along here. Number three would be collaborating with North North Branch Nature Center this is an obvious partner because they are adjacent and a lot of people don't even know when they're leaving, you know, one property and entering the next so that would be a big part of this goal is just letting people know the distinction between the two different properties and any kind of, you know, differences in terms of use when you enter one or exit the other. And we would really like to support and collaborate on their educational efforts. And just the awareness of, you know, and efforts for ecological restoration efforts with North Branch. So we would be partnering them with on a regular basis doing, doing walks throughout the park at educational offerings. We're looking at what they're doing for the accessibility in their property and seeing if we can kind of extend that into the river trail, thinking about invasives mitigation strategies, and also work with them to develop an online resource for the ecological survey that was just done with Erica so we really want to get those maps and all of Erica's work on to, you know, digital platforms so you can link right from the parks website and see everything about all the work she's done. And then finally in this section before we jump into the conversation I'll talk to you about number six, which is protecting the ecological integrity and natural history of natural communities. So, yeah, here we are, we're really looking at, you know, those places that Erica has identified as significant on a state level or municipal level, and there's a ranking system for this and we're looking at, you know, that this a ranking of sensitive natural communities, specifically the northern hardwood seepage forest which is one of the larger is larger examples of that natural community in the state and it goes right along the whole river trail. There's a lot of ash black ash along there so thinking about, you know, how are we preparing for emerald ash borer in Montpelier, and making sure those resources and sensitive communities are accounted for as we move forward with with other projects or any kind of, you know, building or anything that might happen in the park area. So that's a pretty good overview right there. And Kasha, do you, how are we. How do you want to take comments for this. I'm going to do it as a group it looks like we're at 41. Let's go ahead and open. I think we can do comments all together here. And if more folks join, you know later we can move into breakout sessions if we need to but let's all stick together for now. And one thing I did want to mention just I missed in my intro is that we as commissioners have talked amongst ourselves and and heard from all of you to shape this plan but now that you have something to respond to. Yeah, we are here to listen to you so this is your space for all of you on the call to speak up and share ideas things you support things that you would like tweak so this is, this is your space for us to listen to you this evening so yeah let's open it up for comments and questions on these first few goals goals to three and six of the North Branch plan. So there's a you can use a raise hand function in in zoom here or if you want to unmute. I just speak up will try not to talk over each other. When just to maybe spur conversation a little bit one thing that we did hear from somebody who's not on the call tonight as the idea to do some active stream restoration in this area. The, it's the land is recovering from. The wrong goal aren't I sorry. Oh no I am the, the, with the natural communities be sorry. Doing stream restoration that the area is covering from the its uses farm fields back in the day, and the streams are pretty washed out so an idea to add in something about putting down down would into the streams in order to help the land to recover and retain water, especially as we head into a time with increased flooding in Vermont so. That's an example of what somebody's already shared on the section shall be on shall be Perry says I'd love to see the word wildlife and goal six along with natural communities just to explicitly recognize that wildlife move place to place. And don't just stick to the natural communities. I'm also wondering. Kasha do you think we get might help to stimulate conversation if we show the whole chart, like with all the actions, like the more specific actions and objectives. We should quit except it's very large and hard to see the whole thing at once. Maybe somebody summarize. You know I'm here to talk about the dogs in the park issue so I'm not. I don't have the whole document in front of me so I'm not sure if one if goal to is the goal that includes that. So, are you. I think many at much of the people that we're hearing from about dogs are referring to Hubbard Park, which we're going to get to after North Branch. Thanks Stephanie. This is Emily seaford, and I just wanted to say that I'm thrilled that you are including goals about protecting the natural communities in the management plan. Thanks Emily that's great. This is Chris hammer I could just add to the natural communities include the wildlife that's in those communities it's not. Not just the plants and stuff it's it's kind of the whole package. But you could add wildlife to it too in case that's not clear but I guess my comment I remember looking at something earlier and maybe it's not one of the three goals that we're looking at right now. I'm looking at the thing on my phone I can barely read it. But it was the thing about building a trail or a bridge across the river so that you could basically walk to coming street where there is a trail but it's sort of a dead end trail. And I know that just as a comment when we when we I was on a commission 25 years ago. And when we built the bridge that connects North Branch to North Branch Park, there were some real problems with just the permitting in terms of the kind of clearances you have to have. And that area where we're talking about crossing to coming street is really low and I'm not sure bridge work there but it just something to be aware of if you're looking into you. With that one we had to make sure we are far enough above the river. And there it sort of worked because one side you're way up above the river, but the other side that would have to be built up. And I don't know if that was a condition of funding federal, you know, money in terms of bridge design, and if you didn't have federal money maybe you would know that issue but anyway she's something to think about I think it's a great idea. I mean I think right now there's a real issue if you can't really walk from downtown to the park without going on streets and stuff and to have a little more back country way to get there would be great. I don't remember which goal that was in that something stood out for me. No that's great Chris thank you. Lincoln do you want to give an overview of the other three goals if we're, and maybe shift to the human management goals. Okay, yeah. Yeah, so we and to answer Chris's question yeah that was like the fifth goal which had to do with expanding neighborhood connectivity so I'll just kind of go over those now and then we can open it up and you know if people are thinking about either either the first three or these three, we can just talk about this collectively so the first goal, which, which I mentioned earlier was this increasing river access to provide more water based recreation areas along the north branch. So, you know we want to make sure that there's plenty of more opportunities for swimming, we want to do, you know, a boat launch, maybe by where the pavilion is right now. We want to make sure that those there are some like kind of decrepit wildlife viewing sites like there's like a beaver sort of look out right by the bridge to north branch and we want to restore those areas and maybe put in some new benches. So people just have more options to view the river and be next to it, and also in it so those are. So that actually includes all I was wrong yeah okay so go one has that bridge from meal pond to the side of the river. So yeah that is definitely could, you know, we'll have to take it what Chris said into consideration there. But that would be one way of, you know, getting getting on to the water. And let's see so for. Okay continue to maintain multi use trails provide recreation and venture for all abilities. The main objective for this goal would be to, you know, continue the, the access to diverse recreational trails and also increase the amount of beginner trails that are available. You know big a big feedback point that we heard here is that the trails are challenging specifically the bicycle trails and kids who are just learning and progressing, you know want to have more options. You know, things that maybe aren't as steep or as narrow so we are going to be looking at a plan for kid mountain bike kids mountain bike trail, like some features to go along the river path. That's something that's that's in the works and looking into engaging with neighbors around the pump track and and looking at sort of the the wetland area there and considering the possible expansion of a pump track to be, you know, be more accessible for folks who are just learning or just, you know, more fun in that area. And we also want to be partnering directly with Mamba and East Montpelier trails and looking at the sort of evolution of e bikes and that could, you know, the benefits of accessibility with e bikes and also, you know, wind to balance the and not compromise other management goals and exclude any other people by potentially, you know, allowing some of those in the in the park. And also just continue all the grooming efforts that go on there. You know in the winter it's a huge effort to keep those trails groomed, and even you know in the summer there's a lot of volunteer work. So we, you know we want to support that and keep those running. And also thinking about a, you know, a less steep trail up to sparrow farm is something that we want to look at for for riders and walkers and runners alike. So that's what this is for and then this fifth goal on expanding neighborhood connectivity and walking terrain within the park so this, this really, you know, spawns from wanting to get more people able to access the park by foot, not having to drive their car there. So, and something else, you know that we were hearing was kind of a little bit of, you know, hesitation of walking on some of the multi use trails just because of, you know, the bikes and and people walking. So here we are, you know, proposing to look into a kind of foot and ski traffic only trail in the northern hillside of the park that would kind of take you up above into some of the more wild and scenic feelings of the north branch hill and have that trail be maintained exclusively for no wildlife viewing and solitude walking and skiing. And we would also be looking into securing an easement or landowner agreement and can offer a trail that would connect the North Street neighborhood right into the park. So, you know, people could walk directly there. There's already existing social trails in that area. So just making sure the crossings on Elm Street are are safe and that there's, you know, have blinking pedestrian crossing signs at North Park Drive Trillium Hill Drive and Finch Road. So people feel like, you know, that's not a barrier crossing the road there especially when you're coming from hover we want that to be a pretty seamless transition for folks and not feel like they are standing on one side or the other waiting for cars to pass. So that that is what we have for North Branch. There is, you know, there is a link in the chat right now through the plan if you want to pull that up and just see sort of the action items that I specifically just kind of read from and the thing. Emily or some Matt, Matt Wilson actually dropped that in the chat. 614 if you want to pull that up on your screen, but we would love you to take comments. I see a hand up and I think it is Jill Olsen so please unmute yourself Jill and go ahead. Hi, thanks so much. Can you guys hear me okay. Yep, I've been on zoom all day I don't know why I think you wouldn't be able to hear me now but thanks so much. I'm Jill Olsen and the president of Mamba. And really just we have submitted some written comments and just wanted to just say publicly we I think on the North Branch plan we're very much in alignment with you and we really appreciate that partnership that we've had to date. We're happy to continue the volunteers that we bring out and to help with bridge work and grooming and all of those things. We did have a couple of specific suggestions around the kids trail and the pump track. We just wanted we just suggested adding some timeframe around when the kid trail if it's approved might actually be built rather than just having a line about reviewing it. And we also suggest that the pump track expansion just is about is five or six years out and wondering if we can maybe look at that a little a little sooner. So those were our two primary comments there. And I just wanted to make sure that we don't have a user conflicts as our bikes are coming off some of the faster trails and we've helped with some reroutes already to date so I just wanted people to know that we're, that's something we understand and care about and are willing to work to make happen. Thank you, Joe. Sure. Okay. Yeah, David, go ahead. I just had a question on the goal five noticing the neighborhood connectivity line there and wondering about the inter part connectivity and what, you know, possible plans for connecting north side of Hubbard Park to north branch on trail. I mean, I know it's groomed during the winter but at one point, I remember talk of a parallel trail or a trail to the west that might come in and connect over to behind the pool. You're talking about like a biking trail. Well, I was biking in part but yeah, I was thinking multi use I mean there, there is the trail that's groomed out now but in theory that's not a bike trail in the, in the non winter months. Yeah, yeah, we have that kind of in a more Hubbard in one of the Hubbard goals I believe so maybe unless another commissioner wants to speak but maybe we'll just table that until we get to Hubbard if that's, if that sounds good. We do we do top bring that up then. But thank you. Sure thing. Kara why don't you jump in. Thank you, Lincoln. I'm curious. Uncle five, the first objective of the trail, the northern hillside trail, if there would be like it sounds like it would only be for foot and skiing and I'm curious about if there would be any restrictions on since it's designated for wildlife viewing. If there would be any pet restrictions, possibly, if that's been looked at, or discussed. Yeah, it hasn't been that's a great point that will, you know, we'll need to factor in. But yeah, I don't we that has not been brought up yet and thank you for bringing that up will be will be will have to consider that. Dave, I'd get a chance to speak yet. Chris also has his hand up. Yeah, yeah, Chris, go ahead. Yeah, I just had a couple of comments. You know the multi use trail that goes up to Sparrow Farm. I mean, most of that's outside of North Ranch Park. It's on, it's on East vampire town land. Before it gets to Sparrow Farm. And just for a little background on that, when that was built back in 95. There was a lot of it was paid for by vast. And so it was really a snowmobile trail. And when we laid it out, I actually walked the trail and cut a lot of the trees down. We were trying to put a meandering trail that was more appropriate for skiing. And it was kind of overruled to make it so groomers could go up and down and, and that's why it's kind of a, it's kind of a pain in the neck to ski because it's really steep and straight. That's part of the history of that. And I think it'd be great if there'd be a way to work with East vampire trails or whatever to. I mean, it's not really the part that until you're halfway up it's not used by snowmills snowmills anymore. They don't tend to go through North Branch Park. So it's not even used by snowmobiles but it's not a very good ski trail. So it again it's not that's something it's outside of the park mostly. There's ways to get to the to get to the city boundary that aren't too bad. But once you get on to onto East vampire town land. If it was it's really a snowmobile trail, but it's not used anymore for that. So just one comment. The other thing is, I haven't been there recently. And so I'm not sure quite with the statuses but at the bridge between North Branch Park and the nature center. I don't know what time and maybe there still is a kiosk on the North Branch nature center side. And is that still there I don't know if that's fallen down or I haven't been there for a while. Right in the park. This is on the North Branch side. Yeah, they're talking about. Yeah, yeah, the last I heard I think they're trying to reconstruct something maybe it was there. It was basically similar to the one right at their parking lot with maps and science and stuff. And I think think something comparable, maybe smaller, but just a map, a signboard like those little ones that are various other places like at the beginning of the coming street, some like that right when you cross the bridge that shows North Branch Park the trails you know maybe shows the connection to the nature center. I don't remember seeing something like that but it seems like that would be an ideal place to increase sort of more awareness of what's going on and where the trails are and I don't know, maybe there's one there already I haven't seen it but I've been there for a while. Thank you Chris that's that's exactly what what we were thinking as well for that you know and sure that that bridge as you cross into the North Branch having a little more information on the park for visitors who are coming maybe for the first time. And I appreciate that history on that sparrow farm trail, and maybe working with vast since they were some of the original, you know, trail builders up there to make it work for the people that are using it today. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think best has anything to do with it anymore, at least for the lower section, they still use the upper section but as far as I know the original trail. The landowner up there doesn't allow snowmobiles anymore so it's really become pedestrian corridor not a snow machine trail, they kind of reoriented away from where it was originally so things are not due to make it more pedestrian friendly, you know whether for skiing or biking or anything whatever. Thank you. Thanks Chris we've got a question in the chat here from Lin wild. I have a question about this action at the end of goal number two what do you mean by this re sign invasives trail to only include invasives that are present and include no biking signs at entrances. Thank you for that question. Now that invasives trail has got some great signs up but it is the signs do describe species that aren't actually on the landscape while there are other invasives on the landscape that are not signed so part of the effort to raise awareness and about invasives and sort of how they can kind of out compete native plants would be, you know, to make sure we have the invasives that are actually on the ground there on that on those signs along that invasive trail, and we got the feedback that bikes were going along that trail and we you know we thought just because you know there's that main river trail right there we could keep bikes, just on that or on the pump track and then leave the invasives for pedestrian foot traffic or skiing. And this is Alec. I just want to clarify that. That doesn't mean removing signs about invasives that are not on the trail right like it's okay. We're saying we want to have signs about all invasives including ones that aren't on that trail but just expand the signs that to include more invasive species. Is that correct. Yeah and you're talking about keeping the current signs up. Yeah, yeah, for example like there's probably a sign out there about winged you on a mess which is not along the trail, but which is still good to have there. Yeah, I think originally in my mind I was okay swap the signs for what's on the ground but I don't see the harm if we're if we're just adding some signs about what's, you know to include what is on on the ground and maybe making that that copy on a sign that like look here's here's not we're in front of you or something. It could add could add value to the, the educational element there. Yeah, great I mean I know that project was grant funded and the intention was not to just have signs about invasives that are on that trail it was about the common invasives you might find immovular. Cool. Okay, thanks for that. Yeah. Any other thoughts and comments on North Branch Dayton, go ahead. Everybody just hitting the, hitting the buttons to make sure I can talk if anybody hear me okay. I just wanted to make you have a comment I may not be able to stick around for the entirety of this meeting, young children bedtime is reading, but just wanted to comment broadly on the plans and I've submitted my own set of comments to the parks commissioners and thank you for the note of receipt, but I just want to sort of state publicly that I think these are good plan, these are good plans and I stand behind the majority of these goals. To serve the city best these really need these really need to include sort of abilities to measure a lot of these impacts beyond just a survey. I think that the survey, while a good tool and certainly one of the more accessible tools we have has its flaws about really representing how parks are used. And I also think that in many of these goals like a, I'd like to have an intelligent comment on the northern hillside non bike trail it sounds like a great addition to the North Branch Park, but without any sort of identification of which northern hillside that is. It's a little bit difficult to to interpret. So I think that's those are just my broad level comments that could really improve I think you know overall understanding of this plan and its effectiveness. Thanks, thanks, Dayton. Yeah, thank you. There's a comment from john Jose, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. But he says, there's important amphibian habitat on either side of the pump track located at the end of coming street and amphibians migrate to the area of the pump track would be concerned about expansion of the pump track and impacts to amphibians and their Thanks. Thanks for the that consideration. And with that, and you know with with the Dayton's comments. Yeah, we definitely, you know a lot of these plans are to help to help guide the next 10 years and you know the projects aren't nothing is set in stone here we're just trying to get kind of a baseline to work off upon and all these projects will definitely need further review. I'm always wondering if the amphibian habitat has been mapped. Do you know if that's part of Erica's, I think it's part of her survey isn't it. I would have to look back on that. Emily if it's not I that's a great question and we can make sure that it gets included in the natural communities inventory but I believe it is. I have one more small comment. There, I don't know if this would go best in goal number one about river access opportunities and goal number five about walking terrain but they're actually two beaver blinds and I think john Jose actually raised this in his written comments to the commission to there's another beaver blind across another bird blind across the beaver meadow from the one that most people know about. And if we restore the trail, you know that's stated in the planet that trail would you know eventually led to this beaver blind and I love to see that restored as well. Thanks, Alex. Arthur. Hi, I'd like to speak to go for I think Lincoln you alluded to this a little bit but one of the challenges that we have at North branch with the train it's available is that it really favors folks who are willing and able to be able to make like the walk or the bike ride all the way up to the top of roll call or SAP sucker. It's a, we have terrain that is wonderful and is great for folks with some abilities but for folks who are new to biking or skiing. Those trails are really can be not as accessible and one thing that I would really like to see is more of an emphasis on developing trail that is easier to access for folks of differing abilities. And I know you kind of pointed at that earlier but it's not as explicitly called out in goal for as much as I personally would like to see it. I think there's mention of the kids trail. And in my mind that really is like not the way to think about how we should be building trail we should be thinking about making trail that's accessible to people of ability and not necessarily targeting towards kids, because we want, I want more people to be able to enjoy what's there. So I just, I'd love to encourage you all to think about, as we move forward at North branch and think about different types of trails that are being built that were focused on making those accessible, as well as further improving what we already have. Thanks, Arthur. Shelby. Jump in and raise my concern I guess that I love the idea of having trails for specific abilities and for broad abilities and multi use trails I think everybody appreciates trails but I would like to request caution in limiting the proliferation of trails. I think the parts of North branch that are still trail lists deserve to stay trail lists because they have wildlife values and the more we fragment them with trails, the less value there is. And so if we can find a way to meet our goals with the trails we already have by making the multi use trails really multi use really open to more abilities. Then maybe we can meet some of these goals with the network we have without further fragmenting what is fairly important connectivity habitat to like broader areas to the north. Thanks, thanks for that Shelby. Right. The one that right. Here's somebody talking is that to the group. I think it was Deborah. Deborah can you repeat what you just said it was hard to hear. I think I think it was just incidental. Yeah. The one thing that maybe talks to what both Arthur and Shelby were just talking about was. I don't think there's anywhere mentioned in the, this part of the plan about, you know, establishing an easier climb up onto the plateau where most of the trails are. I think probably most people walkers and bikers would agree that the biggest challenge in the north branch is getting up to the level where most of our trails exist. Pretty much every ascent that we have is pretty steep. Whether you're walking or biking. And I think there are some options for how to do that, you know, I might involve getting some further permission from neighbors or whatever but I'd rather identify that as a goal, you know, to encourage access to to somehow establish a less steep multi use ascent into the mid level of the park. Thank you, Alec. And I did, I did want to clarify I think Alec reminded me of Dayton's comments. You know what if you're looking at our plan and we have goals objectives and actions, the objectives with with that metric of survey. We're looking at a survey for, for whether or not we've achieved the goals that you know we've definitely heard that feedback and we do want to adopt, you know, language that clear reflects it's not just a digital or, you know, mail and survey but that's a whole, you know, outreach campaign similar to what we've done this last year so we would be planning to do that, you know, some version of that, you know, at the five year market this plan and then especially at the 10 year where we would be, you know, there'd be a rewrite really of the 10 year plan. So, just just to clarify that because the wording, wording sounds like maybe we're just going off the survey on on the, on the table there, but thanks for bringing it up. I also might mention when thinking about building gradual trails just bringing up some of Eric as natural communities inventory pieces, which are is a map of those attached to the draft that's out there but just so people take a second to look at what is kind of a seep, seep for us there along the lower slopes that was really surfaced and brought to our attention as a commission and just wanted to let folks know that we're aware of that as like as a pretty special environment there. Kind of on the way up to those steeper slopes. Any questions, comments ideas for North Branch before we shift to Hubbard. No question, and I apologize if you talked about this and I missed it has any thinking about measuring progress or success on toward the plan. The goals and the, the years I that are identified with each part of the goal. Has this been checked against reality in terms of our park staffing and capacity. Like, is, are we not at that point yet, or have you already been in conversation with Alec about is this feasible to take on so many different goals. That is very fair question. Thank you for asking, and the thanks for bringing that up, Emily. I'll just say that this plan sounds wonderful but the reality may not be able to meet that. Yeah, yeah, and yeah we hear that and the timeline was is the newest column on this map and you know, although we've been, you know in the making, you know the makings of a year for the goals objectives and actions we are we are just beginning to fine tune the actual timeline so tonight, you know, on until we are able to pass, you know, a final plan here we'll be looking closer at what is the actual capacity, who is responsible for each one of these and making sure that gets into the final draft so thank you for bringing that up. And it is, we are this is a work in progress. And I would add that there are some of these pieces that are keeping things the same or simply that they don't require a lot of action or heavy lifting. And I think that's one of the reasons there's a there's, you know, many goals that are listed in 2023 that are, you know, essentially like maintaining or ongoing type work, but it's a really good point Emily that you bring up that we'll have to fine tune with Alec and staff. If you have any questions, or else we'll take an extra five minutes for Hubbard and I'm sure we can use it. All right, let's go ahead and shift to Hubbard and just as we do this a reminder in case folks were here primarily for North Branch and and stepping away. The link to continue to make comments was in the chat it's also available on the city website again where the plan is available for download. And, and you're welcome to submit comments is there, there as well. And Matt just added in the chat again. So, as we shift to Hubbard. I just wanted to start with kind of an overview of some of the things that we heard about Hubbard. You know, first and foremost, I think we heard loud and clear that people like things the way they are people really love Hubbard there's really strong affinity for Hubbard. But much of the plan and things that are in the plan and in this chart are essentially codifying things to stay the same and not necessarily this to change. There all are also some things that are changes that will surely bring up tonight and highlight along the way. But I think much of what's in there is to help things ensure that things stay the same going forward which people seem to really appreciate. It's really clear in the field walks it was really wonderful to lead these walks with you all as community members in the parks this summer, and also through the online narrative comment forms. It's really clear that people have a really strong affinity for the old forest and Hubbard. Some people called it old forest. Other people use it just recognized some of the things that are there like mosses and ferns. There's the language of people referring to places as fairy forest or Hobbit land and things like that, that are really kind of descriptors of the elements that make up the old forest which was neat to see and celebrated. I think one thing that's important for Hubbard is that there are different areas of the park that are used in very different ways. Obviously, the southern tower areas see really high use. These are some of the most popular trails are the most used trails. When people speak about the northern areas of the park, basically from everywhere from seven fireplaces north, both in the, in the piece of the park that we already had and in the new parcels purchased last summer, or this time last year. The language really shifts and changes and people across the board have been using words like wild and slow and escape and feeling like you're out there. And I think that's been really noticeable to all the commissioners and also folks from the outside kind of looking and helping us look through comments. So, pieces of what's in here and the plan also seek to preserve the natural environment and those northern lands, and also that kind of wild experience that people really appreciate in that part of the park. And I think as Lincoln talked shared earlier, there were a lot of surveys conversations with, you know, various organizations and people across the community walks there, there is a lot of pieces that went into this plan. And we're looking forward to hearing from you all about it today. Let's go to part one and look at some of the goals here. So, the first goal again if you want detail you can download the full plan off the website. The first goal is to improve way finding for throughout the park. I would summarize this as actions that make the park easier to find and make it harder to get lost. There are a lot of people that said they were confused where they were. They weren't sure how to get from one place to another, and it prevented people from, or does present people from using the park and kind of exploring in the park for fear of getting lost. And so there are things here that hopefully make it easier to navigate throughout the park, and also more welcoming to a wider range of people with various ranges of kind of experience and accessibility and natural places. So, the second goal, Stephanie, if you go to the next slide deal is to make it easier for people to access the park without motorized vehicles in within this I just wanted to there, there are a lot of bullet points in each of these but these are get questions about or have surface so I wanted to make sure people know that this includes signing entrances from the new parcel from Wyndham Drive and also Essex Way, and signing those as open and available to the public which they are. And also similar to what Lincoln was talking about for North Branch and making sure that people can walk and bike to the park, having crosswalk sidewalks and bike friendly routes to get to the park. So signed routes along the street so that people know this is a bike, this is a route to the park. Goal three. There are many amenities here this touches on, you know, a lot of what is here are things that we can do services that we can provide to make our park more welcoming for people of all comfort levels and abilities. And so there are things in this. So the first goal that address repairing the fireplaces at seven fireplaces several people noted that they were kind of in disrepair and it would be great to be able to use them the fitness trail equipment, upgrading that providing accessible access to this to the stage and one of the shelters at least so that people with different mobility issues could use the stage and use the shelters. So I did this also includes I know which is a very hot topic dogs. So this includes leaching dogs and proposes leaching dogs and essentially two areas one is the stone power path and accessible pay trail, as well as roads that have cars on them, and also leaching within 150 feet of parking areas. And the thinking here, you know, as a commission we receive several incident reports a year of people who are afraid of dogs bit by dogs pushed over by dogs jumped on by dogs. This does happen in our parks. And even if it's not happening there are people who are afraid of this happening. And so one of the things that we've noticed in terms of a pattern and these incident reports as that many of these incidents are happening in parking areas or near parking areas near the trail heads. And it seems like one of the things that's happening is, you know, we all pull up to a trail head and you let your dog out of the back of the car and it runs out and up the trail and you're still getting your jacket on or your backpack or your water bottle and your dogs kind of running around greeting everybody else. Or your dog super excited and just sees another dog or another person and kind of runs for it and so this seems like a space where we could reasonably ask people to leash their dog while they're at the parking area and then the first little bit of the trail seems like it would be a small act to reduce some of those incidents and make the park feel safer for more people. And then the idea on the stone tarpath path and accessible trail is that those are two of the most accessible trails in the park they are wide for they're not too steep, they're pretty flat. They're easy for people to walk side by side. And so a lot of people who have mobility issues are just, you know, need to take more time and watch their footing. These are trails that those people are using. And it's not fair to those people to have to also at the same time that they're watching their footing and getting out onto these trails. Also have to be on the lookout for dogs and what dog is going to come up behind them or towards them and jump on them or whatnot. And so the idea here is to make those trails. They're already very accessible to a wide range of people. And they're very highly used those trails have the most people on them the most kids and have the highest, you know, possibility of conflicts because of that. So I do want I did want to pause there since I know that's a really important issue. Let's go to number four. So this goal is intended to kind of provide this balance between being a place of community and gathering, but also what we really heard loud and clear about Hubbard was that people appreciate that it's also a place for solitude and escape. And so there are these two kind of opposing and complimentary pieces to try and manage for in the same space. So within this that again there are many things in here but I wanted to highlight the things that I know are most important to folks here. So this would propose creating three new trails from Wyndham Drive to seven fireplaces. Two of them would be designed for pedestrians for foot traffic, one along the east of the parcel, kind of following the ridge for those who are familiar with this trail. Another pedestrian path down the center, roughly through the narrow or the meadow or along the edge of the meadow, and then a multi use pedestrian bike and ski trail on the west side of the parcel that would go north from Wyndham Drive towards seven fireplaces. It would also establish a pedestrian trail from Essex Way to the nearest park trail, which will be up on the plateau, most likely. And then there's this northern plateau area. I for lack of a better term to call it for folks who have been back here there it's higher elevation. This is an area that really stands out in the natural community and in people's just comments and reflections on the park as being a really special area ecologically. There, it's important wildlife habitat and just supports really important plant communities back there. And so this proposes essentially one trail that would climb, you know, beginning from the south that would climb up onto the plateau. There would be a one loop on top and then to send down the northern edge of the plateau down towards the stump dump. So folks who have been up there this is roughly the trail that exists now, except I think that the trail now is essentially a social trail that was built over time, a part of it is kind of a washed out old road that's probably 100 years old or so. So those pieces aren't very sustainable. And for all of these really, you know, this would probably likely use some existing trail segments but also give us the opportunity to look at where exactly these trails would make sense and place them in a place that can be sustainable and design them for the long term for the intended uses. And this also includes a action to explore opportunities to construct a possible route, accommoding bikes between Elm Street recreation fields to seven fireplaces, or in reverse from some fireplaces to Elm Street recreation fields. And this collectively for people who have been following and looking for this would allow for bikes to go from the Wyndham Drive neighborhood through Hubbard Park, essentially from Wyndham Drive to seven fireplaces down to the Elm Street recreation fields, and then thereby connecting in with all of the bike trails that Lincoln was just talking about in North Branch Park and have the loads of trails over there. So, I think this meets a lot of the needs that we were hearing from the community, and would provide new opportunities for people, especially on the new parcel. Number five, educating visitors about Hubbard's unique natural and cultural feel features. There are pieces in here regarding interpretive signs and educational walks and things like that it's fairly self explanatory. And I think that's it. I'm going to pause there. And just as we did with North Branch, open things up for questions and comments. And we do. We have about 20 minutes now that and then we'll shift to the other kind of natural community side of Hubbard as well. All right. Let's see Chris. I just, I haven't been involved in some of the earlier. I didn't make any of the walks or any of the earlier meetings but could you give a little bit of perspective this idea of closing off course street. I mean, maybe you can give us a little background I don't know where that idea came from that's the first I've heard of it. We live right at core street so that was part of the interest but I guess either you could start by giving me a little bit of background or what kind of feedback came out of the work that you did that made that a recommendation. And then I could maybe just if you if I had that perspective maybe I could comment on it. Yeah, no that's great. I let's I'll talk about course and also Park Drive Parkway Parkway. Yes. At the same time because I think they're similar I was actually surprised. This came up in the online survey and the narrative that a few people kind of independently said what if we close more roads in the park. And one of the best things that ever happened to Hubbard Park years ago was the decision to close roads. You know, you think about it and there are kind of trails that we call also roads the road up to Hubbard Tower the road to seven fireplaces. Those function as trails now but we're in, you know, years ago roads, and I think people really appreciate those places. There's also people that we're talking about, not so much from core street from but more from Parkway of saying, you know, I'm, you know, I live in the neighborhood and I want to walk up to the park. But when I go the, you know, around on the east side there on winter street I think it is. It's steep or there are cars passing me or when I go on Parkway, you know, it's also shared with cars and so one of the ideas of doing this is it would be to effectively kind of make the make the edge of the park closer to the community so if you're maybe not where you are Chris but down in the Meadow neighborhood. So now the park is, you know, all the way up the hill by the entrance gates will Parkway is a really kind of park feeling type of street, where even if it were seasonally the park, you know, the, the apron of the park what could kind of be brought down for pedestrian use of that road, then it would allow people to kind of physically enter the park space and be in the park more quickly and provide a safer out to the parks. And where you are, you know, I think we've seen a lot of the times that people are walking on the road and and whatnot. And it just seems like it would make sense potentially for, you know, people to have more access of within the parks and convert some of those more to trail experience. I think one thing to note for both of those is it doesn't say we're going to do it. It says we're going to talk to the neighbors and talk to emergency services and talk to folks about doing it. And it may be something that we think about seasonally, but essentially what this is doing is putting it on the table for discussion but not saying this is going to happen. I don't know if that was helpful at all Chris. I mean, I, I mean, because I live here, core street sometimes is really not passable and I have to go through the park. If there's fresh snow you don't want to go down to core street just to slippery. And there's also a couple places down at the bottom of the hill where there's springs right in the road and when they freeze the road is incredibly dangerous to drive down. And there's only three of us that live up here everybody else is below that, or maybe four. So I think that's just one of the issue I know that the fire trucks now can get up here going around that corner because they have a specific pump truck that they buy so they can get around that corner. Oh, yeah, go through the park. And so I know that it's, you know, they've dealt with this. So that's my main concern is just be able to get to my house. If core street is closed permanently. I also am frequently hauling trailers and stuff like that and usually I can get around the corner there but we really depend on the on the course core street in the park. As our one of our main access is to get out of you know to leave the hill to get down to the bottom of the hill. And that's kind of my own selfish concern. But on the other hand, I really love it when they close the park during mud season, because it's it and and so it's, but the challenge there is that people see the sign at the bottom of cliff street that says Hubbard Park. And they come up and they park right across from our house or sometimes makes it really hard to back out of our driveway so I think the challenge with closing off core street. Is if it's closed right at the gate, you end up having parking right on the road. And now, so a friend of ours was parking there the other day and they got ticketed. Well, I'm glad you brought it up and I, I want to keep talking with you about it but I also want to give other folks a chance Jill, I saw your hand go up. Thanks so much. I appreciate the opportunity to comment. So I guess I want to say I know that you guys are balancing a lot of different needs and input on Hubbard and so it's definitely a complicated plan that you're trying to devise. I have one broad comment which is that I am a little concerned that the, that the survey seems to be sort of this primary driver of the of the planning process because it just seems to me like it's there may be other. It just doesn't seem necessarily like a really strong source of data so I'm concerned about the reliance that I'm then hearing and so we did put that in our written comments with some suggestions about other kinds of sources to use. Specifically on goal for so we're really, I think those the connectors and the ability to and the perimeter trail and the ability to get over to the north branch trails. Well, I actually think achieve some of the the goals that we were talking about on the north side which is some trails that don't have as much elevation change and that are easier to navigate and easier for people who are newer to riding or have less fitness or less physical abilities. So I think that those are all really good ideas. I encourage you to do them particularly that that connector to get us down to the north branch trails are concerned and we put in the written comments is just that there's like sort of some of these come with a lot of caveats. So many that I fear that they will preclude you doing a sort of the thoughtful print planning process that I know you'll do. But it seems like I fear pre deciding the issue without the process. So we, we are asking you to simplify some of that language, particularly because it's really under a very the overarching goal is all about balance and includes the word solitude and escape so I think we got quite a bit of kind of intent already described there without getting into all of those details so you'll see that in my written comments some of the places where where we really think you could simplify and leave leave it to the planning process. To that end, we also, you know, this is a there is this new parcel if this is, you know, a 10 year plan on something that we haven't had as much time to consider and think about and we just urge you to leave a little more room in the plan for more opportunities to consider bike and cross country and pedestrian trail so not to call for them or make anything specific but just leave a little more space for that to be something that could be revisited over the course of this long period of time. Thanks, Joe. Let's see. Deborah. Hi, thank you. I first want to say, you know, I, I'm really appreciating all the energy and creativity that's gone into all this planning and I can feel this kind of sense of the Renaissance of the whole park system so thank you for that. And I also agree with Chris about my I have concerns about closing off course street, you know, selfishly to I live up here, and it can be really dangerous to go, go down the steep way down course street in the winter. And Jill about the, you know, be careful to rely too much on the survey and about anecdotal data. But overall, I think, you know, this your planning shows a lot of forward looking creativity so thank you. And since this came up I think a couple of times now you know Lincoln mentioned this at the beginning but it is not one survey that is guiding all of this. So I think there, there is a survey taken by 1300 people a year and a half ago there was a survey. This summer, we also had all of these walks with people and conversations across the community so and a natural communities inventory that is very extensive and about 30 pages long and very detailed so there are a lot. More things than just a survey and I just want that to make sure that's clear for everybody going forward. Let's see who we have Rebecca. Hello. Can you hear me. So my name is Rebecca copians I live on cliff street. I appreciate what Lincoln said about this, you know, being a celebration of the park. For me, every morning is a celebration of the park. I would consider myself a heavy heavy user of of our natural resources, and we have an incredible really rich community around the park in the morning. There are people that I see that I know through their dogs and their. They wouldn't be part of my community if not for those dogs and if not for being able to connect with them in the park on the morning in the morning on our morning walks. I don't think that I think it's really narrow to think about, you know, eliminating. Just saying bar none we're going to we're going to mandate that dogs are leashed because morning is all people walking their dog, generally around dawn. There are some others that don't but midday is a different a different use of the park. Generally when I walk in the middle of the afternoon. Around lunch, I do I do leash my dog because there's a lot of a lot of different people but to have such a broad blanket ordinance to say all leash dogs dog should be leash period I think is really narrow. We live on cliff street. So the only way to access the park is through the stone. You know, we go up the stone tower. Pat, you know, to the to the to the tower and then down and around. If I were to go to the northern part of the park, it takes an hour and 15 minutes to do the loop. And I generally do my loop every morning at 40 minute 40 minute loop. It's my most consistent form of exercise. And I think you said specifically cassia that you want things to stay the same. Well, this ordinance is fundamentally changing my life. And I really think you need to think more broadly about about how you're impacting people. And I would also like to ask how many of the commissioners in the park on the park commission have dogs who walk in the park. I think four of us, including myself have dogs, and maybe five of us. But I think most of us have dogs. And I'm just so would you are you suggesting a kind of time ordinance that maybe if this were something that went into fact like 10am on or you know different times times of time or day. Part of the suggestion here. I mean, I think as long as there's there's a clear space for people to continue their normal life. I think that would be great and I don't I think I'm all for inclusivity on the park, you know, in the park. It's a huge resource for everyone in our town, but to say that we're just going to change it as a blanket statement is really short sighted. And then so I don't have to come back and speak again. I, there's a couple of really good ideas that I think you have. One is to split the trails on, you know, walking and biking. It's not on these these points, but I think that's a great, a great idea. And I love the idea of transportation from one end of the park to the other for for bikes. And that's that's great. So thank you. All right, let's see Eli. Hi everybody. So, I think I'm probably going to echo some of the points that Rebecca just made. I am and I think that there might be a little bit. You know, not to be heads about lack of foresight in what accessibility needs might be. I am a person who. Does need accessible trails. I was diagnosed with metastatic cancer in July of this year. I go to the trails daily. It is a huge part of my recovery. It's absolutely prolonging my life. I go there with my children and I go there with my dog. Everybody that I meet along that trail. I usually go in the morning or midday. Everybody that I meet along the trail does have their dogs on leash. I think in the past couple months, I've met maybe maybe three or four people with the dogs leash. And usually they're, they're saying my dogs reactive and letting us know. The regular dog etiquette of, you know, what people do who have dogs. If the this was became a leash trail, I wouldn't use it. I would have to find somewhere else. And it's becoming less and less trails that seem to be available to have my dog off leash. So I would have to find somewhere else to to be basically having this really important part of my treatment by exercise. Or I would have to try to use trails that I don't think would be accessible to me as this one is. I do have kids. I have young kids. I don't think that kids. I mean, maybe you're seeing. I don't know where the increase in in conflict comes up around kids. I don't know if that's something that you've actually seen data around. And I would echo, I think a few people have said the measurement practices and how you're collecting the data and getting that input from people to be beyond a survey. I heard about this meeting tonight on trail when somebody mentioned to me that they were that you guys were planning on making this a leash trail. And that was upsetting to me. I do. I do. I think the inclusivity is incredibly important. And I think that there is a way to make this work for everybody. I do think that the, you know, if these, a lot of these conflicts are happening when people are getting out of their cars, you know, maybe the having your dog on a leash until you get on the trail is a good idea. The other piece, I guess, kind of speaks to go to I actually need a motorized vehicle to get to the trail to get to the point where I can actually get to the trail and have it be accessible. Otherwise, I would not be able to to use the trails that I do. Thanks. Thanks. Sandal, I think you've been waiting for a little while. And I'm sorry if I'm getting your name wrong. Hi. So yes, sandals, right? But it's really for Paul. Okay. So thank you. And we didn't mind waiting. Thanks. All right. I'm interested in what you're doing. I haven't been very involved for years and years, because I don't live directly in Montpelier anymore, but I'm wondering about what you're you talk about getting information from other sources and I wasn't involved at all in what's happened in the last year. But I have spent have 50 plus years of experience in Hubbard Park. Everything from being a kid playing in the park to supervising in the park when we closed roads and built a new shelter and the new ball field and we did the frog bond and, and, you know, quite a few different things that happened as part of Federal BOR funds back in the early 70s. And so I'm just wondering how much you've thought about the long term and what you're really walking on when you're in Hubbard Park. And it always amazes me that people think that, for example, that all those big trees are old old. Well, what's old, you know 30 years older than I am. If that's the case, you may be in the ballpark, but generally old is considered to be 130 years plus anyway, and those trees aren't even close. I'm wondering. Have you thought about what's actually going to be happening in that park decades from now? You know, is it going to be a jumble of intersections of trails where you can see each other on the different trails or have clove reliefs or whatever you want to call them. Or are there going to be areas where there aren't trails or trails have restricted use and, you know, so much of that park has changed in some ways primarily with a much more use than there used to be. I mean, we hardly ever saw people just walking up in the park with dogs or anything else back in the 60s, late 50s, and you know, now you're dealing with a whole series of different possibilities, which I think you want to think pretty carefully about if you think that all of those are going to be workable in Hubbard Park. You know, granted there's been additions to the park and that's great. I'm glad for Montpelier and all of you folks, but I think there's a fair amount of things that have changed as well as things that haven't. But what's going to happen is that a lot of those big old trees, for example, that was referenced made to, they're going to get old just like some of us and they're going to be gone and the effect that you're used to when people say they want it to stay the way it is, you need to plan for that if that's what you actually want. If what you want is just to leave it alone and let nature do whatever, that's fine too, but you need to understand that that's going to happen. And it's not something that is going to take care of itself and you'll have the same things that you see in your walks right now on into eternity. You know, if you can imagine what it must have looked like in parts of the park, even during World War II when they had victory gardens up there, which I remember being told a little bit about. And I, you know, people today would look at you and say, what? Well, you know, there's a lot of things like that in the park that I don't think probably have been in the popular discussion and I'm just wondering what plans that you, you know, how you're going about thinking about that in terms of maintaining what you'd like to have there. Thank you. Those are great questions and I'm really thanks for sharing that perspective. I think we'd love to follow up with you and also hear more about your history and time with the park because this is part of the management plan to you or the kind of background appendices is this kind of past use information. So we'd love to follow up with you. And in terms of the, I think your questions about recreation and trails are great for us to think about. And then in terms of the forest and promoting the old forest, those are the next set of goals here that we'll get forward to or in a second here and how we work to make sure those trees that are just a tad older than you are 100 years older than that and another 100 years. Kara, you've had your hand up for a little bit. Thank you, Kasha. Kasha. Yeah, my, it's a quick comment about the roads and the people you mentioned that a lot of people. You know, were uncomfortable with, with walking on the roads and I'm always surprised at the number of people walking on the roads and there are trails that parallel most of the roads within, you know, sometimes within 20 feet, sometimes within 50 feet but that travel the same routes. And I'm wondering if maybe written into here somehow we could, you know, put better signage about that so that people realize. Sometimes it might be an accessibility thing that people are more comfortable with the flatness of the roads or something but it also may be that people don't realize that they could be walking on a trail to get to the same place in a pretty straightforward way. So, that's, that's all. Thanks Kara. Let's see Justin. I'm Justin Barnard. I live in Bailey Avenue and I am a heavy user of the park. My family and I are up there daily if not multiple times a day. I want to commend the commission on developing a plan that really is think is in many ways forward looking and adds to the park. It expands the opportunities to get people into the park. And for that reason, I was somewhat disappointed at a couple of the items that made it into the plan. You know, I want to echo some of the comments earlier on the restrictions on dogs and Hubbard Park. Obviously been a hot issue and in a plan that is, you know, I think it largely positive. I think it strikes a sour note for those of us who are up there and have well behaved dogs and used park extensively. And others have said but I, it is very hard to find areas around here that are allow off leash dog walking and have the quality of experience that Hubbard Park does. I think they're going to be enforcement issues in the way that the restriction is proposed to apply to just some trails and some areas. I think it's going to be confusing and the people who probably have the most problematic dogs and are causing restrictions aren't going to follow the rules anyway. So, I think it will reduce the quality of the park experience for those of us who are enthusiastic users with our dogs. And I'm not sure I see huge benefit. The other point I want to make regards the proposed closures of some of the trails. There's a reference to closing social trails around the park. In my view, that is at odds with Hubbard Park goal to up on the screen here, make it easier for people to access the park without motorized vehicles. There are a lot of people from various sides of the park who enter through those social trails and rely on them and it would be very difficult to get into the park without using those trails. If there are conflicts with private property owners, that's really, I think an issue for the private property owners to restrict the use of their land. And I would hate to see the social trails closed. So I want to hear a little bit more about that. I also want to hear more about the planned closure of some of the smaller trails in the tower area. It's not clear which trails you're proposing discontinuing, but what we love about Hubbard Park are these small trails that take you off on your own away from the big trails. So I'd hate to see that the opportunities to wander through the park be reduced rather than expanded. Thank you. Thanks, Justin. Yeah, and I think the clarity, we've heard clarity around the social trails and what that means. I think there are pieces of that that are surely important to keep in but then aspects of it that that probably don't make sense that we could clarify that we're not getting rid of everybody's trail from their backyard to the park isn't really in the intent of that. Let's see. Saul, although I'm not sure that's probably not actually your name. It's Julia. Okay. Yeah, Julia Gresser and I live in Montpelier and I just want to echo practically everybody else who just is raving about, you know, the work that you all do and we have a couple signage in the park. We're so ecstatic about the new addition to the park and just appreciate all the hard work that everyone does. It's just an absolute treasure. And I just want to make a couple comments about the deletion of dogs and again I'm sure that a lot of thoughtfulness went into these recommendations. And I'm going to say that, you know, looking at this with my husband and our family. Six incidents a year is extremely low considering we actually counted the number of people that were with dogs going in and out of the park in just the time that we walked our dog last night. You know, there were about 12 dogs with owners. So, you know, there's easily 100 probably quite a bit more than 100 dogs and owners going into the park every day. And so six incidents a year to me is extremely low. I often think of it as a large playground with children. There are going to be incidents, you know, there, there are going to be people that say that are upset about, you know, the dogs, your dog's behavior, whatever. I feel like the code of ethics is working beautifully. I often will call out to people ahead of me if they look like they're a little bit frightened and say, would you like me to put my dog on a leash. And if they say, yeah, you know, I prefer I say, sure, no problem I call my dog I put him on a leash. And we have these kind of interactions all the time in the park. And I think, you know, my fear is that there are going to be people who are going to complain that a dog bumped into me or a dog jumped on me. And I, I really feel like, you know, if you enact these restrictions about you know the leash areas. They're going to be, they're going to be more complaints next year, there's going to be more complaints the year after that. And I feel like it worries me greatly that the people who the few people that come and say that there was an I think you should listen to them, you know, and we should all take that into consideration. But I just feel like this, this haven, where dogs have this very rare opportunity to be animals and to run is is is going to be chipped away at gradually every year there's kind of, we have to be ready to defend the territory that the little territory that we have where dogs can actually socialize with each other, and actually get some really good exercise it's not anybody who says that your dog is well exercised by being on a leash all the time. It doesn't doesn't have a dog and doesn't know the needs of an animal like that and I think that their service animals their companions to us, and many of them sit in apartments and houses for hours and every day while we go to work, and this is their chance to have a little bit of time to actually to run and another thing is that I'm well I just I just want to open the I want to encourage others to have an opportunity here, Julia if you just take another second. Okay, just one more second is that leashes can can can can also be somewhat hazardous for people my age. There's a lot of I broke my wrist last year with a couple of dogs that were crisscrossing with leashes on so that's not a panacea either that that that can be that can be somewhat hazardous. Thank you. Thanks. And let's see I am. I see Nicole you've had your hand up for a little bit I also want to encourage others who maybe have a topic on your mind that hasn't been heard yet. And an issue that hasn't brought up yet to to to go ahead and kind of get in the queue with a line here, your hand up here so Nicole go ahead. So I want to thank the parks commission and the work that you've done, reaching out for comment on your plan. I went on one of the guided tours over the summer and really appreciated how receptive and knowledgeable. You all were to suggestions. I live on cliff street. I'm a heavy user of the park. And I would like to say that as a dog owner and daily walker in the park as a neighboring property owner, and as someone who has hiked daily in the park for the last 18 years. I strongly support the commission's plan to designate the ADA trail and other areas as leashed leashed areas are vital component for ensuring that the public at large and not just those who are able bodied can reasonably and predictably expect a safe and enjoyable experience in the park without unduly risking a fall or another kind of encounter that could significantly altered their quality of life and independence for years to come. Given the recent acquisition of this new land, we've ample room to designate different areas of the park for different uses, including off leash dogs. I love letting my dog run around and play off leash in the park, and I am yet still grateful to have designated areas. So I don't have to guess what other walkers comfort levels are, and thereby risk making others feel unwelcome or find myself in conflict with someone who has different needs or expectations for my own. I appreciate that this plan allows for predictability. I appreciate that this plan still allows the vast majority of the park to allow dogs to be unleashed. And I again appreciate the park commission for their time and effort on this plan. And thank you for your time. Thanks Nicole appreciate it. Let's see Montpelier City Hall. Oh, that's Alec. I'll let anybody else go before me. I see Chris and OD and I don't know. We can't hear you very well. Yeah, I'm anyone else with their hands raised to go before me. Okay, let's see. How about OD. We can't hear you. While she's working on that Chris. Do you want to go ahead. Yeah, just a quick comment. I mean, I agree with what Kara said earlier about just in particular on core street. But also winter street and the parkway. I mean, when you think about the meadow you think about cliff street. There's no way to get into the park. Unless you're on private land or if you're walking on the road. There's no sidewalks on winter street parkway or core street so. And I noticed a lot leaving our house if I have to go through the park. There's lots of people on the on the road and so I think there are trails as as Kara mentioned, but they're not very wide. They're not particularly well maintained and I don't think people even know about them. So that was just one thing I mean I think that's something to think about. I think roads would be one option but also thinking of maybe there's other ways to get access so people don't have to share the road, walking with cars that are using the road so that was one thing. And I also I noticed that you know in terms of improving way finding. There's never been any kind of map. I don't know if you can see us or anything at core street. And I frequently have people walk by our house and they're like, where am I how do I get back to my car and they're their cars like on Elm Street or. And so I think I don't know why that's never been, been, been done but it's just like every ancient there's a nice, there's a nice, you know, sign at the winter street gate. And then you have a map at Hubbard Park Drive, I think core street needs one too. For all those people that access or people that are leaving the park and wonder where they have they are to just have a map there and make it really simple. Right. This is a suggestion maybe that maybe that's part of the plan but I didn't see that particularly called out as. No those are those are helpful suggestions thanks Chris. Do you want to move along to the second half? This was just the first half of the Hubbard Park plan. We should get to the second half seeing as it's almost eight o'clock. So let's go to part two here. Which addresses kind of the natural community aspects of the park. So I had mentioned this earlier. But a lot of people in conversation and when they refer to the park, talk about the fairy forest and hobbit homes. And the idea of gold six here is to promote the old growth forest and the true character of an old growth forest. That we're beginning to see today and appreciate. And that in a hundred years from now, it'll be even enhanced with down trees and fungi and ferns and all those, those pieces that make up a healthy ecosystem. And then goal seven is would maintain three forest openings. Within the park. These are places that are, they're open now. They include the Hubbard Tower area, the sledding hill and the meadow just above Wyndham Drive. These are places that we can encourage the growth of native grasses and wildflower species and. And also kind of regularly. Brush hog or mow. To keep them open as forest openings. And. And, and, and promote pot pollinators and edge habitat species. And then goal, finally goal eight. Is mentioned specifically the natural communities. I've included a little bit of Erica's maps here, a larger version of this is in the plan to download and then. This is just a subset of her overall natural communities inventory, but this would call for maintaining or decreased trail density within the priority natural communities. Keep dogs out of vernal pools specifically. Because these are such, such sensitive habitat areas and very attractive to dogs because dogs love water. Monitoring and addressing invasive weeds and. And, and making sure that invasives don't extend into Hubbard Park, which of course does have some, you know, invasives and whatnot, but especially the northern ends house. Really rich. Rich hardwood forest there. That we want to take. Keep the native plants and protect those natural communities. So shifting to these three kind of. Natural communities ecological goals. I'd love to hear people folks comments on these or questions and what not to add to this piece. Less exciting than talking about dogs. Let's see who Brett. Yes. Hello, I'm breading. And I am not. I do not live in Montpere. But. I have done a lot of work over the years. And in. Montpere and the parks specifically. And I helped. In an advisory role to. Erica. For her natural community mapping of the two parks. And I would just like to speak strongly in favor of. The goal. Eight. You have. And also a goal six. Both promoting old forest. But also the. You mentioned the. Rich northern hardwood forest. That's a very special place. Ecologically. And I did my work there in 2006. And I did my work there. And I did my work there in 2006. And 2007, but even. Liz Thompson. Identify that is a very special place back in. Oh. 1996, I believe it was. So that's been known about for a long time. And it's a very. It has high biodiversity. And it's a, it's a special place. It's a wild place. And I would just encourage you to really try to protect that. That rich northern hardwood forest in particular, but your other older forest, the better examples. I think they're just, they're very special places. And it's a, not only for people, the park. And so there, we have to think about the myriads of other species that want to live there too. And so let's, I would just encourage you to. Strongly protect those areas. That's it. Thanks, Brett. Appreciate it. Let's see. I can't tell who has an old hand up or a new hand. I think your hand is new. It is. Thank you. One quick comment about on goal eight about the vernal pools is, I think it would be important to fence the vernal pools, even on on leash areas because once in a while. People don't follow the rules and. You know, like a lot of damage can be done. Pretty quickly to a vernal pool. So that might be considered. To fence all of them. That are close to the trails. Great. Thanks, Kara. Sandal as your. Hand up again. Maybe an old one. Okay. Then. Then Alec or Chris. I could go. I guess I had one question about the. I agree that, you know, some of those older, late, successional forests up in the northern part of our part that Brett talked about are really beautiful. And. I think, but also people look at sort of the entrance to course street. And there's these big old majestic pines that. Look old, but they're not even a hundred years old. They're not even a hundred years old. They're not even a hundred years old. They're not even a hundred years old. Being dumped down by big windstorms. And we had a huge windstorm. I don't know, it's four or five years ago. And a lot of those pines ended up on the ground. And so you say in the plan, prohibit commercial harvest. And I'm just wondering, does that mean. I mean, I don't think anybody wants to see a big timber sale. But what do you do with all the non native. The wood is there's some up at seven fireplaces. There's, there's some that's actually on state land. And what if you have a big windstorm and you have all these trees that come down. Are you prohibited from selling them? I'm just wondering what that prohibition on. Commercial harvest means, because that's not really defined. Because there may be times when you got all this as streets you're taken out and you want to be able to sell it to raise some money. prohibited by that no commercial harvest. It's not clear in the in that action plan or whatever it is. Thanks, Chris. Great question. I'm laying. Yeah, I just wanted to share. Odie posted her question in the comments and she said thank you. Yeah, she said my questions regarding the access to the new section of the park via Wyndham and Essex Way. I live in this neighborhood and have had neighbors heard neighbors concerned about people parking along the streets near houses. Is there any plan for parking areas for people who want to get into the new section in this neighborhood? I think the answer to that question currently is no, but it doesn't mean there couldn't be. I'm on North Park Drive myself and we also have an access point here. There's not specific parking, but people do park along the side of the road. So but not they're not significantly while I know on the other side of the park like Hubbard Drive, there are a lot of cars parking there and neighbors are concerned about that. So I think it's something to keep an eye on. I think Essex Way it would be new and there aren't any trends established. I think it's kind of unknown of how many people would be looking to park there and get up to that kind of corner of the park. Alec? Can you hear me now? Yes. Great. I have a lot of comments. I it's very humbling to be here with people like Paul Kate and Chris, Paul and Sandal and yeah, just thinking about all the many hands that have gone into this park and being a part of that now. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Really appreciate the process. And after sitting on these for a month, I do have a lot of comments, mostly at the action level. And I didn't submit them in advance because I saw that you guys were getting a lot of comments written and I didn't want to overwhelm you with those. So I guess my first question is do would you prefer to have them all here in this setting or do you want me to submit a more detailed list of written comments? I think Alec you and I should could just connect one on one I think would be most helpful and let say the space for the community to to you know, speak and connect and share. Okay. Yeah. Tee Duggan. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes. Thank you. My name is Tim Duggan. I'm a heavy park user. I just found out about that there was this rulemaking process going on. And I guess to this point that was just being raised. I definitely have some thoughts, but they're pretty uninformed right now because I haven't given the plan it's due. And I'm just wondering if there's an opportunity still for me to you know, follow up in writing or is this sort of last shot or what's what's the where are we? Yeah, great question. So I this is a piece in the process. So we have the draft plan and of course hearing people's comments and feedback tonight. I think one of the things that's been important to us as a commission is to make sure that we're hearing from a range of people in a variety of ways. Many people are glad to raise a hand and speak up and a forum like this and and you know, read the whole plan ahead of time. Other people come to something like this hearing a you know, knowing of it but hearing about it and then looking for details and information. And so for that reason, we also have an online comment form. It's really kind of like a it's almost the equivalent of sending a meal email. It just allows us to kind of keep all the comments in one place and organize people's feedback based on on goals so that we can make the best use of it. And if Matt is still here, he can maybe drop the link to the chat with that again. And we welcome people to continue using that tool to comment. And then of course, we're all people. So email and phone and meeting up and things like that are also helpful. So but the online online comment form is probably the best space to yeah, definitely spend time with the plan and look through it and and comment there would be fantastic. And Kasia, the deadline, we're looking at end of December, right? Yes, end of December. So December 31 would be great. Okay, that's what I was looking at. I am a huge fan of everybody's work in the park. It's a wonderful place, big fan of all the things that Alex done with it. And so before I go off uninformed, I'd love to just read a little bit more thoroughly. Thank you very much. No, that's fantastic. And we are just at eight o'clock here now. So that's maybe a perfect segue into just kind of rounding things out here. I then the next steps for us as a commission are, you know, we'll be taking all of these great ideas and suggestions into consideration. We've been receiving emails with some ideas. And some are very specific and some are big processing through that. And like I just said, go online and add comments there. We will process those comments and tweak the draft and make updates, and then bring an updated version forward for consideration. Our January Parks Commission meeting, which should be the third Tuesday in January, I'm not sure what the date is, but whatever the third Tuesday is, we made again from six to eight. And we'll be looking that again, and either, you know, we'll see where the plan is and how how how it is and how we're all feeling about it. But it's possible that we may be ready to move forward with a final plan on January or perhaps February at the latest, I think is what our timeline is. But that gives plenty of time for back and forth between then and now. Any last comments or anything before we close out anything from the commissioners of final thoughts or anything? I'm really grateful for all of you here tonight and spending your evening with us. I know being on a Parks Commission meeting is not always the most fun way to spend your Tuesday evening. But it's really important that we hear from all of you and really helpful feedback. Emily. Yes, I just there were a couple of people who wanted to hear Alex comments. So I'm challenging you to summarize your comments. Can you can you summarize your comments in five senses? Because my comments are all very specific to action items. So yeah, I don't think I can summarize them in a no, the answer is no, I cannot summarize them. We will we will get them incorporated for sure. I just want to jump back in here. Yeah, and say thanks for everybody who's been a part of this process and it's you know, it's it's such a shared value our parks in Montpelier and I think in the planning process, it's easy to get into the feeling of there's this us versus them. But as a commission, we're really trying to you know, be the interface for we know what we're hearing from the public and hold the mirror up to back to the community. And you know, I think there's a lot to balance here. And I think we're getting pretty close. That's what I'm hearing from you all tonight. And there's some fine tuning and some you know, some language updates and clarification to be done and still much work to be done here. But just thank you for coming tonight. And these meetings are lengthy and and digital and tiring. But we're doing good work here. So I you know, we really want to hear from your if you haven't spoken tonight. So please use the use the survey monkey that Kasha has created. Thanks, everybody. Have a lovely evening. Thanks, Kasha. Thanks, guys. Thank you, everyone. Bye. Bye.