 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. They checked every 20 minutes in your cell, you're spun twice, well moved cells twice a month. They shouldn't have used, they said I gripped a gun in a bag and that gun was a Mossberg pump action and the deceased was killed with a Mossberg pump action. It's all absolute bollocks, to be quite blunt. What are you thinking when someone put a hat over you in Peloton? I hope it's, I'll give them a few quid. I was a bit pissed off because it went, it's 50 grand, then went up to 100, then went up to two. I'll take them for a ride, I'll take them somewhere very dark. Okay, and I'll tape him up, spread eagle him to a tree, read him his life history very quickly. Boom, we're on. We're on. Yes, Kev. Good to have you back, brother. Good to be back. First one, massive views, massive story, miscarried justice. You've got your book fitted up which will plug straight away, you can get this on Amazon. Great book. Thank you. I've read it twice. Yeah, because it's powerful, and obviously your story is well, leaving as your youth grown up, you know yourself, you weren't clean cut, you weren't the fucking little angel, but you're involved in a case where... Oh, it's the angel of some people's eye. You got a guilty for a murder that you didn't commit, you've got the book out fitted up, but you end up in prison again just a few months back. What happened? So I got recalled. I had problems with probation. I moved, and they kept moving me to different probation offices. Offices I'd drive an hour away to, on the motorway, on the car like down at Graves End. And in a car like a story show, I didn't see I had survived the probation officer, but bearing in mind, I had multiple probation officers, not a single problem, and I've been out bleeding years now, okay? Hardly reporting, staying where I want, and so on and so forth. And she'd come up with a load of problems about I got arrested for a common assault against my girlfriend at the time, and as a result, she wanted to know names and everything of the girls I was dating. I said, but my case, I'm not a sex offender, blah, blah, blah. I objected, I objected to the area manager, but I said no problem, so I was single and I was... I just enjoy myself and being honest and dating a lot. So, the prime example of us not getting on, which will lead to what I'm going to tell you in a minute, is that... She said, what, give me the... I said, okay, and she said, well, who have you slept with this month? And I said, okay, and I ruled out a load of names, right? And she tore it up. She said, we'll start again next month. I don't mean that bragging, but it'd been a very busy month, and I was very lucky that month. But that's what I had to deal with. And I thought, well, that's an invasion on the... Whoever I'm dating or seeing or I've been with that month, they're in privacy. So I started falling out of them then, and she recalled me for the common assault. But I'd been on bail for six months with a business, no contact with a person, no threat, severe provocation, so on and so forth. And she recalled me, which I thought was unjust when I'd been out for so long, okay? She could have said, no, you're going to put you on curfew, you've got to be in, you've got to report once a week. She could have... She merely made my reporting restrictions severe. So then I got recalled. I went to prison for that, and I got out. I had a tag, and the tag was faulty. They said it was faulty. Didn't fit it for two and a half days, and I was out. So much for needing me on tag. And the tag officer reports where you are, doesn't it? So it reported I went into Hertfordshire three occasions. I said, well, we haven't, for one. Their middlesex addresses with the bank, the council, and so on and so forth. Still recall me, kept me in four months. Four bloody months of my life again. How long could you have kept you on for? Look at COVID, 14 and a half months I did. I was sentenced to two months in prison. Yeah, I did 14 and a half months for common assault. Sharia's common assault. I'll kiss you, it might be sexual assault. Have you got a license hanging over your leaf license? Yeah, I've still got a life license. And that dictates where I'll go. I mean, taking off the airplane by bleeding police and shite like that on the tarmac. Search on and off the planes, taken aside. Really badly. I've complained about that. Customs and to my probation officer, but he can't do nothing about it. But nonetheless, it's embarrassing when that happens. But the convictions, my barrister became a judge, Joel Van Aten. So I had to hand over to another barrister to find one. And I've now talking to Dominic de Souza, who we wanted to do a podcast with you and discuss the legalities of stuff that's mentioned in my book and things that happened in relation to my code at the time, being acquitted by the judge and conversations and such that went on with him in the police. So we want to go live on that and then build some momentum and go on Twitter on the legal professions, because obviously Dominic's a leading QC. And see what the legal profession has to say about what we have to have said in my book. And then we're going to mount the appeal off the back of the panorama program, Last Chance for Justice, with Mark Daly and Trace Alexander. They conducted some tests and said that it was wrong what the police said and should never have said it. So we're going back to court or criminal case review commission on that. How long have you been in prison? Oh, when? I've done 24 years now. Yeah, because I went back for four, so there's 18 and a half months just done there in the last three and a bit years. What's the longest you've been out, Kev? As long as I was out, I came out January the 15th, 2015. And I got recalled February the 6th, 2019. So four and a half years. So every time you go back, does it get harder or do you just become immune to it? The second time I got recalled, so that was difficult because I knew it was unjust and there's far worse people should be recalled for what happened that evening. I don't think that I should have been even charged. I think that the other person should have been charged for criminal damage to my vehicle and such and provocation taken into account and the condition of that person on the evening. I was sober. So I went back and my business and then COVID, I had to sell my car with a nice Range Rover, fully loaded sport. That hurt because I've always wanted one. Then your funding, you've got responsibilities for children or wages in your office rents. So the car went on, I lost 10 grand on that. Business obviously stopped. I've had to come out and start a new business again. Which is, you know, I'd rather have had the four and a half years behind me in the business that I was doing than having to set another one up. How hard has that been in prison for academia that didn't do it? Your whole life you've been fighting to overturn those convictions. How hard does that? How hard does that lead in life sentence? That's how bad I felt it. I really felt it, I have to tell you. Trying to do bird, when you're doing bird, I got my head around it very quickly. And I said, well, this is my life. I live in it. This is my home. So I've got to make it the best I can. And that's what I did. And it was frustrating with the obstacles that are put in your path for obtaining information, contacting people, people replying to you, by your letters. I had to let it 20 a day because I had a laptop in there. And just file a letter out, change the heading, change the structure of it, depending on what department or certain issues in there. And that takes time. And then nice to get that out. So you meet a lot of obstacles like that. You're stonewalled all the time. Do you think you can be your own worst enemy sometimes? Well, for being stubborn. Yeah. No, I think stubbornness got me through. If I hadn't been so stubborn I'd have given in because, believe me, I can understand why people take their lives in prison. They just get worn down. Constant drip wears the stone. And people suffering there, emotionally, heartache, losses, relationship splits, injustices, there's a terrible some of the senses that people get for the crimes that you look into the the details and how they the police put these cases forward. You suffer a lot in there, a lot of suffering. And I've got to tell you, for me, there's times when if I weren't so stubborn and strong I would have turned the drugs and I wouldn't have come out in the man I am. Did you ever contemplate suicide? Yeah, I fucking in the life of them once, I said, I'll fucking show you a lot. And when I got a load of tiblets and took them, I told them I'll show you a lot. I took the tablets. I was in the special security unit at the time, triple category A. I couldn't say there isn't triple category A, no such thing. Honestly, there is. Just look it up on the government websites. It exists. And most people, there's a lot of people in England who know it exists. So I was in there at the time. It just opened after the escape. I'll just split up with my fucking old woman. I was fighting with a mufti and all sorts like that. I thought, yeah, you banged me up here. This is the prime example of what you're talking to. It's relevant. So when you say, oh, fucking, you banged me up. Yeah, you've put me in here. It's a miscarriage of justice. So I'll bring attention to this miscarriage of justice. Wallop. Wayne Owen, a palomite. He's dead now. I love Wayne the bits. God rest his soul. I don't believe in God, but when I was listening, he's a proper palomite. He used to get loads of medication. I said, you got fucking saved from tablets up. And what he did was, he took them sleepers and 35 and a dinner thing and load of sleepers, eight sleepers. I don't think, but anyway, went beyond the door. He's coming to the door and he's gone, you took him to him. So we had a coup, right? This was a coup. I said, well, I'll take a tablet. And we're going to frighten the life out of these fuckers now. Because I'm going to go over and I said, so let me let me after they are behind the door or something. Get on the door or something. He's taking a load of tablets, right? And he did it, right? It frightened the life out of him. He had to go to the Home Office Secretary, Secretary of State and all sorts. And remember, the governor, he comes to me, Brodie Clark. He got done with the passable scandal with Theresa May. I like Brodie Clark. Gentlemen, I found him very respectful. And he says to me, when I've been in there for a while, I said, Kevin, he said, just hold it down a bit longer. He's, you know, he's coming up with you. You're triple A. And he said, they can't build any more units and they can't send you anywhere. He said, they couldn't handle what I was like in there. Because it was just, when it kicked off, they had to shut down the whole prison. The whole prison. Everyone behind the door, if you're on a phone call, you're going on a visit. I'm open now, open. So we kick off, kick off at times when they're doing stuff. It caused mayhem. The digress to be there. Maybe that's why I use our old fucking triple A then. It got me off the fucking, out the unit. I'm telling you, because it had bad press. It said it was inhumane. Sanctions, not sanctions, but said, who was it who did it? I can't remember who it was now, but it was said it was inhumane. The Guardian reported on it at times. The prison home office minister. The senior medical officer. He wrote about it. So, they didn't need any bad press. I took tablets then. That's the only time I've done it. And I haven't thought about taking my life. I've been, often thought, is this what I'm living for? To have the constant heartache or trauma. When I went up for the CCRC, and I was told that I had a migraine. If they didn't have a migraine, I'd have to go to the CCRC. If they didn't have a migraine, I'd have to go to the CCRC. But I'd be inviting it. If they didn't think there was some prospect of referring my case, I'd have shut it by now. 21 days later, they shut the case. And they are blows. When the copper gets nicked in your case, and he's been involved in your case right away through it, and all the other stuff, and you think, fuck it, never mind. One case has been squashed. Go over and look at mine. Bang, why hander? Knock back. Bang, why hander, knock back again, and then again, you think, what have you got to do? They're hard to take. Knock back rejection, not back rejection. Is that when it comes to the mental state where you think, what's the point? I could die in here. Definitely so. But what I used to hold on to was the Birmingham 4, the Bridgewater 5, Bridgewater 3. It was the Bridgewater 3 or 5. I knew 3 of them. Yeah, you had Brian Rodman. I met him. He got let out on the land in the fell of the Bridgewater 3. But you got the Guildford 4 and all those. They had like 5 appeals, some of them, before they finally got let out. And they graved miscarriages of justice. And that's what I used to hold on to. I think, well, look, eventually it's a process where I've just got to keep wearing them down, wearing them down, getting the information out there for people to consider. And then eventually get the right hander, which the panorama is the right hander for me now. It's a game changer. But Joel Van Afen said. What was the triple cat here, like? What sort of prisoners were in there? Different. I was in there. I can't mention their names, but Matthew Williams was in there with me and he escaped out of Parkhurst. A very clever kid. He threatened to poison Manchester City Council when he impregnated a flying which had poisoned the water system. He got 7 life sentences for that. He sent a letter bomb to a couple of kids who mugged him at college or your college. This is a straight go. I'll fucking show you, he used his brain. But he's an artist doing really well. He was in there. Wayne Hormes was in there. There was a fella in there that he's dead now. He's no longer there. He wasn't a nice character at all. He was an informer, a recognised informer. I knocked him spark out the day I landed there. I put him to sleep for five minutes. I leaned over him and said, I told him anything. That said, that made me feel straight. So, I was alive while my first day into the unit, but it's a triple category A. You're checked every 20 minutes in your cell. You're spun twice, well moved cells twice a month. You put in a sterile cell and they pack all your kit and put your cell in there. In the cell that you're going to be in. And that's without the other searches that go on the security searches. It's very, very intense. Focused like I've said it before, a Nazi camp. You looked at it, there'd be a screen over there and behind there would be psychologists writing notes on you. Monitoring you. In the strip cell, I used to spend a lot of time in. They call it a box. And I've said this, there was a parapet wall where people could walk around and observe you while you're in there. So, it's a very, very severe security. Yeah, that sounds like torture though. That even if you were, see even for people who were guilty even that being in there alone would fuck them up up here. Do you know what I mean? Never mind fighting for your freedom. Known you're in there something you didn't do but you're in there getting tortured basically. Strip cells, chain cells. Your mouth's not going out. Your mouth going missing all the time. I had to send every single letter I had to post out and then recorded delivery. One pound saying it used to cost me a letter depending on my parcel A4 or sending out folders and such on the edge of news bulletins and all stuff like that. Comes with a lot of money. And if you're not getting out on your post in them and then I just involve the post office but it's a constant battle where you've got communicate to the post office by letter again and wait for responses. And it's just a long, very drawn out system that there's security, security, security is run by security. It's not run by a governor. Security is the governor, they rule the governor. Simple as that. I know some people say they kill people. They come in with the right gear, balaclavas, is that true? Yeah, yeah. So John Sayers, he was next to me in the unit. Okay. John, my mum he mentioned in his name and made a film about John and the family. I think they've made it with Steve Wraith, haven't they? But either way. Sorry about that. So he was next to me and the maf did come in on me. What did they come in for me now? I'm not sure if it's a time when I got on the bell and told them we're going to get kitted up. No, I said to them, two boxes in the ring I said, when two boxes in the ring the bell goes off. Yeah, I said two boxes, the bell's just gone off, go and get kitted up. So they've gone off and I had to tear up with them and they're dressed in all black, right gear and they're bloody, like the body armour and the boots and the gloves and they get the coshes out and they come in on myself many of times like that and you're just trading with them. But the idea is to get you into a corner by using force by they come in, don't they? I knocked the shield man out once, done his jaw and all sorts of bits of pieces and I was quite successful fighting with them. But believe me, I mean my eye got split, my eye closed. That closed right up. That was a cosh. Yeah, I can't put my eye back up here because I ripped all my ligaments once when I was getting wrapped up and I was on camera and then camera's got destroyed. That's all in the units. So the violence with the mufti is but believe me, I'm proud to say that any prison officer out there that's been involved in that mufti with me and I was discussing this the other day what they had with me is whereas I would tell them to go and get kitted up because I want to fight you because you've taken the fucking liberty. Difference, big difference than them coming in on someone and that person thinking fucking hell, you know they might be angry but they're fighting because they're frightened. Not wanting to get at the mufti there's a big difference there and that tells them something that when that door's opening I'm coming for you and I'm fucking gonna get stuck into you and you better be bleeding ready because you're gonna have a good workout better than you've done in a gym. Were you still getting to use the gym in that Kevin train because I know you've done boxing for years were you still getting to do that in AAA? Yeah, they had a gym in there designated area you could go to at certain times like you can't stand in this bit here because it's closed off where they serve food step on it, you get nicked you're standing like that again, shit like that you know, fuck off. One of the fellas I told you walked out there, I don't seem to always violent but you're in an intense place where it's run on violence, you must get that insurance everything's do it or we wrap you up simple as that, there's no negotiation you don't go to a prison in Argentina they do four years training to be a prison officer we do six or seven weeks here completely different you know why does everyone have to be violent why do they have to spray pepper in yourself to come and wrap you up when they could just spray sleeping gas and put it to sleep and you wake up a bit calmer and what's the money in it it's got to be, I don't know the cost but either way the system's all wrong and um what did you ask me what we were talking about there sorry I've lost myself there there's this fella, so we're in the gym and I went and I've fallen out with this fella, the same fella he wanted to use the weights bar and I said listen, you've used it we wouldn't have gone it, me and another fella Wayne Owen actually, sorry it happened he got belted and they come running over like I say they come sprinting over to the unit, all right load of them and I thought you're not wrapping me up today so I picked up a weight a 20-key weight stood up and put it on my head like that they came in like a fucking buffalo, like stampeding seeing me with this weight above my head they went like a keystone, cops in their feet like oh yeah, yeah okay now I put the weight down Kevin, you know I put the weight down but I'm walking, put the weight down that was it, walked to the block but I had to use that method to defend myself I hadn't hit any of them so why did they want to wrap me up did you ever think you were getting wrapped up they could have killed you? yeah, no, yeah I was told they were going to kill me he said I would kill you, one screw said to me I mean yeah, take the cuffs off and talk about it I knocked him spark out that fucker when the cuffs come off but he was threatening me, actually big bodybuilder was there many people in prison I know a majority of people see all about innocent and that's about as many people you had discussions with that were, fettied up yeah, pretty well tall, fitted up who was he? Brummy lad he's doing life for murder over here, 33 years and when he went to Spain for a murder over there that's Cody did they don't have PII like secret information and they'd give it to him Cody just went the other way blamed him for everything as a silent witness he's doing the bird for it and there's people like that, you know it's just sad there's other, not just some miscarriages of justice I mean there's a good few cases in there but in a way it does happen, I mean the criminal cases review commission and the court who accept that they make mistakes and there are people in prison, the police accept that, so there is a percentage but you see these people just faulted away side just give up in life do you see how a lot of suicide done there, okay yeah, I've seen some suicides I was running with a very dear friend of mine the day before he took his life and I've seen something that was wrong with him and I asked him he was a very strong character he had 16 months left and that was very sad but I've seen others as well others I've got a friend at the moment called Robbie Hylands he's just been released from prison before Christmas he's got one, on Tik Tok it's on there, he might fit up and find back have a look, or the Instagram so he got released from prison he's riddled with aggressive prostate cancer one step at a time on a Xemaphrame slowly dumped in hospital he's got to have emerged the operation, he's had that now and they're going to give him a prognosis with his cancer and they cut his tag off of him so that's how he leaves he's just got out of prison like that they left him in hospital, nothing no one's visited him, no change of clothes, no toothbrush nothing and I drive all the way to Wakefield last week to see him, bang, come out of London and I went up there and that's how they leave you I've seen people die in prison they've had all these bells cut away and they put a nappage in his cell putting his dinner in his cell on the table and shutting the door and I asked the door to be open I mean, guarantee it it's all shit on the floors, nappies and shit he couldn't get out of bed, food with mould on him two weeks he'd been in there and that's not a word of a lie I mean, I ended up caring for him when he died, Lazarus God rest his soul turned to Islam but he was a loner, real loner but he wasn't he was Jamaican and I got that and he died, I got to care of it very sad when do you see people breaking the most is it at the start of the sentence, middle or the end? because I know a lot of people get out they've done a big sentence, they do something stupid just to get back in, they become so institutionalised but when did you see the breaks in people, start, middle or end? people always suffer at the beginning if they're new to it and if they're not, like when I got very cold you could say, like a lot of times you're just chewing everyone's ears telling them a story that's what you see some of it is to get, bring some attention to what happened to me, because it was such a travesty I mean, the compensation at the minute we were discussing with the Home Office because they said they're imprisoning me wrongfully so you've got to try and get that out of some form so it becomes through discussion and letters but you see a lot of people at the beginning have that frustration or the fucking dread of my God, I'm banged up and this is where I am and then they get used to the routine and the way of life and they make a few friends and they settle and you see them change but I see people break normally when family things happen if the old woman leaves them or if the sentences are just far too long you've got nothing to look forward to if you have nothing to look forward to what does it give you to hold on to? fuck all how can you look forward to something but if you're doing over 20 years like how does people keep going like you say, but without the break without showing the screws that you're struggling or breaking because that's the last thing you want to ever show them but how does people then get through like because you've seen the strongest people become the weakest and the weakest people you've thought he's not making it and become the strongest like what's the main ingredient to then get through something so long Kate Fit use the gym don't become couch potato sitting in your cell you wouldn't do enough anyway, get out otherwise you just become I'll just say sell right but you're just living in a cell nothing TV smoking or whatever you want to do so keep yourself fit try to educate yourself so I've got a distinction in sports nutrition some a lot of people do degrees and try to use your time to make it happy in there what you play an instrument find something to do because you've got a lot of time to do so you better find something where you get enjoyment out of which is good therapy for you I had a budgie so I was living with another mammal in the cell that was great company because you interact with them my budgie used to when he was eating when I was eating it would go nice and when he was eating it would go nice nice too so I did it and I got drunk a lot I did get drunk a lot they got me through it great parties I used to have good parties dancing thinking you was the absolute by looks when I've been drinking my oaks lately I was on it last night I can stand up I still drink it I brew it under bottles and people are going nuts for it still now so I've got to do another batch so I used to drink that and luckily the visits and the stubbornness I'm not going to let you bastards get away with this so the reality of the situation is that I did bring the English government to the negotiating table because they said you're never going to be releasing 2010 you're guilty of doing the offending of behaviour courses but then there's just some paperwork was sent to my solicitor and that caused me to be released and an appeal Law Chief Justice Rafi stepped in on my appeal and she shouldn't have done and she was my prosecutor's friend who was sitting in his hospital when he passed away where trainee bars get funded and helped during their training she stepped in on my appeal she's never going to overturn it was she my case was his best case he ever had so I got turned down on that and now we've got the CCRC, the panorama one coming up How many presidents you've been in, Kev? Don't tell you I had 18 moves in four years first four years about in and out of the units lay downs, 28 day lay down caramel off period strange really because I was calm, I wasn't going there angry things had happened in the prisons I was in I got sent on the 28 day lay down once for using too much force to defend myself it's too furloughed, thought that's a bit harsh spent a bit of three weeks in the block for that and then 28 day lay down and then came back it's all punishment as you can see I don't know it's a character building I suppose it is in some ways How can you release that a stress on your mind every day the pain, the kind of flashbacks that you constantly think about even though you're trying to move on you're trying to create a bigger business you're trying to do well, you're everywhere social media, you're books out you're doing positive things how hard does it to not to let go of the past that was something I was very very bad at in terms of just down to cursing conversation, or something I say saying or a look on that eating my head and not be self talking all the time so I had years and years of that in prison and again concentrate where it's stone and it could have gone either way with me but I think with working on the case using the brain all the time instead of being a vegetable watching TV and such in a cell I got an appetite and I used to work I feel that it got me through it the I've lost myself again there you're trying to forget the past yeah so I stopped holding on to things because I was in prison and I couldn't do nothing you just got to accept things around your control and then a number of things happened during me during my sentence and loss of a life and things like that and I think you just become you're not so sharp and stubborn in some areas like that you just think is it worth it prison taught me that some things are just not worth it you've got to let things go get rid of that rucksack and put it up on the shelf and park it up I had therapy for two years when I came home and I've had it successfully on and off for the years I've been out and I think I like it I go there sit and chat with someone I give it different options of looking at things definitely up me do you think that's what's kept you out even though you've been on a couple of teams here and there but do you think that's what's kept you kind of sane? no I believe it's helped but recognising that if you hold onto things that are anger filled you become a bitter person and I'm not a bitter person I like to have fun and have a laugh so the aggression side of stuff is prison related and okay it's still in me I accept that but first and foremost I like to be happy and not have things going around in my head that causes me to feel stressed or unhappy so get rid of them and I'm pretty good at trying to control them unless you know sometimes you can be heavily engulfed in stuff we're consuming it aren't you because whatever's going on I've had some right road crushes the last few weeks last two months more so two weeks ago he's just like bang bang bang bang you think fucking how much more can you take how did you meet your prison hurch? so I worked out a system that I thought I used to do a demo area with sugar and because I didn't have bleach in it I'd get the fruit juice, kick that off and I used one cup of that per two litres I dilute that into a bit of hot water so it'd break down quicker and cook better wouldn't put the restart into the liquid this is hot but it would I'd put that into the orange juice in a bucket or bottles and make sure it's tepid and then I'd put the restart into that mix it up, wrap it up keep it warm constantly as much as you could I used to take proper care of them I'd get up in the morning do them, get them in a sink so you've got to get rid of the smell I was up at half six in the mornings so six in the mornings and all and then lunchtime early association for that, bang up and again in the evening, all night on the pipes so I could cook a brew in four days just burn all the sugar off for a good yeast that's good stuff I've had some people drink that proper drinkers that's good, yeah maybe that's what was fucking all your heads in I remember I was in Berlin and somebody made this which I've not fucking felt right since man, I nearly went blind I genuinely, he'd made it with potato skins I think yeast but I don't think he had a fucking clue what he was doing you've got to watch what he's drinking but I make an ice drink people wouldn't buy my drink so that says itself it's a warm brandy warm cognac but you've got the sweetness of the honest juice and then the shock of the alcohol when it warms your throat and you go goose pimly so that's just, and it's got a good body to it the clarity is clear I'll strain it, I'll settle it and I'll put finishing ingredients in it and such like that now I am going to go and look at it at some point about going into production because it's such a strong drink and it's cheap have you enjoyed all the attention with your book and all the podcasts that you've done with me, very popular but how have you enjoyed that especially if you've been in prison for so long because it's a weird energy now with social media and attention how have you handled that I've done quite a bit of filming I'm actually talking again now to someone who's a scriptwriter we'll just talk about the book but that's happened a few times with production companies and such and I'm still in talk to them so the filming side of it is really good, I enjoy it first and foremost I actually enjoy the company of the production teams I find that when I go there it's quite exciting the topics are good I enjoy doing them and I come away and just stay focused on my work because this can come and go tomorrow so I enjoy it like a night out and that is it and hopefully brings awareness to my wrongful conviction at the same time and then if anything else comes with it then great it's nice to be able to do this stage of my life from where I've come from to be able to afford that opportunity to do so so I was locked up with an MP recently in prison, in an old prison in Shrewsbury prison Victoria prison that's been commissioned for a series of stuff that's going to be shown on there that's going to just I'll say it anyway but I've really enjoyed that I was locked up again but the company was really good the person I was with the fellow I was with is a serving MP and it's quite unique so that side of things I really enjoy but I've been in some situations where something happened at another documentary company I was with and they said something about something I said well I'm not bothered about the film I'll just leave, I'm alright thank you I said I appreciate it but I'll just leave and they said oh no no that's okay that's okay that's alright and it was something simple a request that I had a friend with me Kenny Collins out in garden he came with me, he'd just go to a lot of places with me but he didn't want no guests to be brought or be able to wait and it was in Mayfair in the 10 million pound house that's when he's 82 I'll go with him then he's in hell in his state so in the same breath it hasn't got well I would do anything and chase it like that I enjoy what I do the people that are filming me at the minute saying it's great filming so they're very happy with it and may it continue and some good come of it for myself and a lot of other people yeah good on you, let's talk about your case Kevlett is there any chance it's going to go in your favour and everything get overturned yeah they used some evidence that they shouldn't have used they said I gripped a gun in a bag that gun was a Mossberg pump action and the deceased was killed with a Mossberg pump action and it's all absolute bollocks to be quite blunt Tracey Alexander for city Westminster Police conducted that review for Mark Daly of Panorama, Louis Shortier of the Innocent Project and found it to be absolute rubbish is what they said in the jury and you've been told that I've gripped a gun blah blah blah and there's been forensic residue found and it's had a used gun or ammunition in there it's quite damning isn't it that's why I got found guilty as well as a wealth of other material in that book and there's no black order on that book and stuff in it has never been asked to be taken out or any issues legally from police or the people who have mentioned in there because it's all factual and I'm talking about right across the board here whether they be politicians journalists and such they just say how can these countries still have such travesties where people are corrupt and the systems have been bent in order to get to satisfy it's the canteen culture isn't it you've got the CPS you've got the criminal justice system they're all in it together at the police they've you know the canteen culture and that book highlights it and it embarrasses them really in today's society they can still get away with sending you to prison for something you haven't done there was two of these charges that could help them one go out yeah one go out easing them back in for another contract killing and that person I've been spoken about because they've been complaining about saying I'm in danger in their lives well the book's out all right by mentioning them on there and things like that but those people flying through the system really are getting everything you could ever want but once I go out for my appeal we'll be asking questions about confidential chats that took place in the number of prisons and information that was given that was used against me by my co-defendant that was kept without my knowledge so there's going to be a lot of questions asked about that and this is why we want to do the a podcast review of Dominic De Souza anything I think that would be really good and we discuss the realities of that and other issues that are right to the point and it's factual because it's documented so um doing a podcast review and Dominic and then making our application to the DCRC as well as I'm actually talking about a documentary so I have a collaboration with myself in another documentary company or one about me um and it'll be the book because I've been told that the book is a great skeleton for a documentary or film by many of people so if I do do a documentary on that it'll be like George or the Guildford Four and stuff like that where the documentaries go out there and then it's right in the public eye and there's people asking questions now right across the nation and it's they're almost corralled into I go out for a pill and it's in the public domain what's taking place so don't just brush it under the table because the public are watching you now and I feel that will regardless of the panorama program I think sort of regardless but regardless of the documentaries and that the panorama program is so powerful and he's been proven that they shouldn't use the evidence so that alone should squash my conviction and in the meantime I'll do the documentaries in support of that Barry George was that Joe Dando guy? Yeah a good bastard man another particle, fucking one particle got him guilty have you spoke to him? Yeah I used to see him down to church he was a bit of a he's a fucking photograph bird but I used to talk to him and he's slow but he knows what he's talking about so quite a lot of degree because he's discussing the forensic issues with me I was talking to him about he was you was in and stuff to do with the police investigation and stuff you know we had common interest now but he always sat on his own which was only for me because I wouldn't have gone to sat with the fucking nonces I used to come down there at the church as well because I wanted to sit with him and have a chat with him but not sit with him all the time sit with him at the end and have a chat with him and tell him but he has to talk to him amazing, it's a network of people that have got information in relation to the criminal justice system yeah somebody always knows something that you don't do you know what I mean? because he was in for killing a woman is he not getting tetherised in there? no people thought he was a miscarriage of justice so there's some people who didn't even get a tour of us but that pertains to the crimes they're in there for what was it like being in beset cases and that like fucking I won't ever have any of them no but in church and that when they were down and because I used to work in the gym in Berlin and they used to they were always down I think it was Eho they used to come down first thing in the morning I had to give them fucking shots it's fucking horrible man I gym-ordled myself like you and I used to growl at them fucking wankers I hit some ones but that was more well-pretended than that I'll tell you something about paedophiles and such they stick together there was two rapists there was about 18 and a half 20 stone these two fellas and they raped 3, 14 year old girls and left them for dead alright anyway I was gym-ordled and I had a row of them in the showers these two fellas a bit volatile then but other paedophiles come running in their aid all got stuck in I'll tell you what I was a bit lucky that day they'd brought me something then Christ, they stick together that lot hated it like just couldn't bear being around them and being in there they'd come and use the gym but in Franklin was good because they had their own gym we didn't have to mix with them they had their own gym-ordlers that's what they started doing but in Rye Hill and places like that I was gym-ordled I had to start mixing with them but I was going through the system then I was just cold, not things like that or the old men you just look at them they looked fucking weird they'd prey on the weak the vulnerable people are far weaker and vulnerable than them and they're doing the most disgusting things to them what does that say about the mindset yeah it's gone and they wanted to do integration with us and them in the wise magazine in Whitemore and other prisons they were trying to integrate us costs to visit rooms, movements all the time more screws, all things like that and they would have it I said I'm not having no pity if I live next door to me you put my letters on my bed and then he comes in and looks at the pictures and says oh nice pictures and then your letters go missing and you find out he's a fucking rapist stalker or people in time or something whatever I said that's not right but in conversation I went to a concert and I was invited there it was strange there were no tickets and the bigger give me a ticket so I thought I'd come it was nice of him and the psychologist came and asked me what I thought about in the question and I told her what I just told you and I sat down at this bleeding concert it was packed in the church, I looked around I was sitting with some people well known people in prison, done big time and I looked up at the fucking van and one of them was involved in torturing war veterans across Europe for their savings Polish war veterans, he was Polish getting into them, wrapping them up with his gang of fellas and I chased him off the wing he landed next door to me and I said you fucking better be off this wing when this door opens mate or else you're gonna get it and he went I looked up and he was the only one that you could have it didn't look you know the others looked weird Peter Farley weird so we were race relations that's what that was, race relations I called that concert I stood up I said this is bacon relations and we should be bashing them not clapping them and I'm leaving the guy's going get him out I said I'm fucking leaving I don't know about that I don't think it'll work you'll have more deaths I don't know if it'll have five deaths 2011 in the high security state people being killed God knows what will happen if you start mixing Peter Farley's look at Grendan then he had two down there my last 10 or 15 years it must be hard for people to go to Grendan because no razor smiths are good friend of mine and notorious bank robber went to Grendan changed his life but they're sitting in a room circle full of fucking nonsense and they've got to share stories like it must be hard for people to really try to change their life to then bite their lip to not attack them Terry Ellis's book Doing Bird Time with the Beast I always wondered what they go for over there and I've got pals who have done time in there but I've never discussed it with them and then Terry articulately sets out the shit you've got to put up with if you're showing them a fence you can be chucked out of there hot style you've got to sit and talk to them and if you don't sit and talk to them they're against you and there's a marker so they're forcing you to sit with people they've done the most despicable, disgusting crimes to children and women and all sorts of other people and you've got to talk to that people and not show that you are disgusted with him well what are they saying then you've got to act and be full but you shouldn't have to act and be full should you you should be transparent and honest I say I don't like you he's a fucking predator and I don't agree with what he does but you're saying I've got to agree with what he does and be nice to him well you wouldn't be nice to him outside of here I'm sure you wouldn't and that's what they're forcing people to do I think it's disgusting that tortures you when you come home my pal was in he said Kevin fucking honestly seven years my mate was in there alright seven years and he says Kevin I can tell you the things but I think that would do more damage to someone listening to those horror stories and seeing how bad and evil the world does even though some of them have robbed banks and killed people but to be sitting here then anybody that has kids or loves kids knows how hard that is to even fucking fire them because through their mind what they do to never mind see it in real life what they've actually done has to sit there and accept that how can you that's why I've always questioned people who went to grinding as well but I've never I can't understand how they can I know they're trying to change it I get that but I still can't justify how if somebody's talking about killing kids and rating kids and doing all the mad shit that they've done let's see real fucking predators and they have to sit there and as if to say not well done but just fucking it's just I can't understand that I can't even talk to them about their crimes and try and find rationale of it really? rationale not so much rationale but the reason why they did it the problem behind it you're just fucked in the head what you do is not right you do not function like we function because that you can't be right what you do to some of these kids and stuff that goes on I'm lost with that I've been in that they stuck me in Grendan when I had a minor occurrence in spring when I was in there to de-cat finished in the centre for kidnapping as you do I was like oh well you know it's in the book anyway and a screw was under under investigation in there it threatened me so I punched your fucking face and I said you talking to me yeah so when I put my dinner down fucking bang left bang right grabbed his head put it in the fucking in the soup the curry was a curry went wallop and jumped up on the thing anyway I got sent over to Grendan you're talking about the people in there there was blokes in there with one tooth dribbling it a little alcatraz prison that's what it made me feel like in there dark cells dark lighting and they got their faces at the doors and that's what they put me for the night in there and they stuck me back under cell confinement after that but I see some of the people these people laying here on treatment these are being contained in prison they've been held here because they're mentally unstable why was the informant in Tripoli why was he not in protection because he tried to escape out of Durham prison with Davey Fields they smuggled a derringer gun into prison and he he informed on Davey that he had the gun and he was in the block and he searched Davey three times and he didn't third time they found it on him he had it up his rectum and fucking strapped with bottles but anyway his escape classification meant he had to go in there gun smuggled into prison but he got off he got a deal but he did other things he handed keys to he was a block cleaner years ago he was a block cleaner he was definitely no good because there was always the other people doing it pedophiles and glasses and such and my pal gave him a set of keys and a marvel tin sealed he said there's a set of finers in there he had no option right and he had the keys so he said give this can into such and such with a cuntman and give it back to excuse my French there you won't hear me say that very often I apologise to the ladies listening but he wanted to give the keys to his handler which was a PR, a principal officer handed the keys over so he was working his ticket all the way through and every unit needs a grasp get information out of people get close to them talk about their cases and that fellow in my book has done that exactly that people have cut him off he's just going like a great piece of nuts in the system I was told by the IRA boys every unit's got a grasp of him now anyway after the escape is that just kind of if you're in there for a long time getting to know somebody trying to tell them things that you shouldn't and they report it back what people do but if anybody ever question me I used to go into the principal's office so when it written down that I've been asked something about my case find it on record protect yourself yeah, straight away I tell my solicitor that's straight away you must have been a mad bastard who's like you think to yourself he could turn it any minute Dave Beaver who's he? he's nuts he's just been done he tried to cut a woman's screws head off in a long line he shot the police officers in Leeds then he was in Yank he's American David is I got home of him he was asked to fucking kill me he was offered a few quickening come and told me I like it thank you very much he's the one dangerous bastard he looks at you and when he's looking at you you just know he's thinking things that you wish he weren't thinking but he was dangerous him and then Warren Slaney very dangerous individual who's he? he's miscarriage justice he's got fed up by his co-defendant he's done for 30 odd years now he's like Charlie Bronston type but he gets things in his head and he will be very violent I feel for him because the system's done that to him the system would have done that to me see what happened was if you were we'd better all you stand up and fight the system like I did I'd have been on the mainstream prison system I'd have gone into the mainstream blocks there'd have been a reception committee waiting for me because I've just had an altercation with a member of staff or musty whatever I've caused some damage to them so I would get some damage down in the block but then that means then I would come back at them because that's when I am and then I would have gone around the prison system from block to block to block like the Warren Slaney Charlie Bronstons and many more people and become a product of the system because they were using violence in the first instance that caused the violence because I was in the special secure unit I had to go into the block unit in the unit because it was contained in the wall of his own fences wasn't it that means I had to see the same staff because the staff had to be clear to work in the unit so it would always be the same staff unless it would be the long bell went off and they had to come over for that reason and I said any of you take any liberties from me I'm going to get the first one I can get I'm going to get sooner or I'll get a chance and there was no more violence I didn't come back at them with violence because they hadn't done anything further to what we just had the rail over otherwise I would have been the same as them I believe what you think you mean someone put a hat open in the prison? I hope it's, I'll give them a few quid I was a bit pissed off because it went it's 50 grand then went up to 100 then went up to two and that was then it's been like to may me a blade in me eye oil me and then kill me but I walked them landings the same landings in the same place for years after three people come and told me they asked to kill me and this has been a discussion recently on Sky News that the police have called for the hospital warnings to be abolished because one I'm being told and I'm being told whose ass can be done because they want me silent about what I say about my book and that the police are saying they waste the resources I've been having them for years and now wherever I go is publicised I go to events late in the evening hundreds a year I've been hundreds since I've been out it's definitely hundreds thousands I can't a thousand I'll say publicised when I do my charity work it'd be easy to kill me so easy if someone was going to want to kill me because there's so many opportunities for them and I've been getting these now for 20 years and the police are saying it could be a case of someone gobbling off pissed, coked out their head also life threats of course I don't discount that at all but Sky News reported on that fact and I think it's a waste of resources what I say is that the police have to be told first of all that there has been a threat against that person's life and they've got their sources haven't they police, crime stoppers, formers so why don't they go and see the person that is issuing these hits especially for instance if they were in prison and say well your progression they're going through prison because their intelligence shows if you're trying to have someone wade in and you're already in it for contract killing by way of example but they don't and we're saying it's an absolute waste of time is that your character though that people have actually been offered money 50 grand, 100 grand, 200 grand to take your life but they've actually come up and told you that we've been offered this yeah I think so I was proud of that that they said we like having your good bloke so we don't need trouble in case you find out that we've been asked to kill you and we haven't come and told you I thought that's very decent of them all because they have I mean they've stabbed and done a lot of things to a lot of people these three individuals I mean tried to cut a prison officer's head off come on quite safe so yeah my character looking back now I think so yeah oh that's like to have a good laugh I mean good pal of mine Noel Cullingham he's asked a question about me at my evening with Kenny Collins and that and he said what's Kevin like in prison and she said every time he stepped out of that cell he was smiling he said every day I mean you get the odd occasion where you might pop but overall yeah and I think that's a testament to my character what's the worst thing you've seen in prison Kevin? the worst thing I've seen in prison he's been over he didn't look very clever he was a fella standing behind him and looked worse you go into a cell and say that mate I think that's the fucking rule are you mean baron in social? no but that is pretty fucking something like there was a kid that was only for a few months it was a kid and as well they were dubbed up together and in the mornings we used to ground and get and click to let the plates or whatever and the fucking two cons were Cullingham and the top bunk well I tell you but that's what yours obviously was the doors were only wedged up when they were at it I've got gay friends in there they're like you know fucking decent fellas in terms of done their burb but I didn't bother that one and their sexual presence isn't so anyway I've walked in and they're fucking at it banging away I thought it was fucking disgusting oh it stunk shit horrible I've um you say the worst things I mean Lazarus dying in that cell that will never leave me that the violent side of things of course there's so much of it we just start terrible things he is falling off from oil slashing and stabbing you've seen a lot but mainly the oilings where people get oiled up and you see just their face change there and then like a Batman film just fucking terrible disfigurement and screams that I thought I hope I don't get oiled up I mean so in these prisons it needs to be hot water but now they make this bleeding napalm boil oil or melt plastic and put batteries in it and sling that in your face yeah used to be wine sugar though yeah I try to look back on my prison system on my prison time and think I seem to be holding on to more when I'm out and such they just come to me with time as I've had and I said oh I've had some of the funniest times in prison Christmas crying in my laughter because people are very resourceful and if you think about some of the crimes that people do or the effort they've got to put into getting out putting it together so I used to brooch my mate Graham Bailey Graham was gay but he was a quite old man didn't know what I was going to have a drink with him fucking nice conversation all right cocked me and we killed a gay geek I think we tried something like that anyway I think it was like that so he used to get me the pipes the oxygen pipes out of the fish tanks because he used to look after the fish and I just put the pipes out of my booze and I felt the smell I mean genius but I've had some great times in prison you have to make the best of your situation don't you what do you think of when you see two friends of us shagging on this hill yeah but it goes on so much in there like people you would know of but it goes on so much they have like prison husbands didn't they king of the jail gay thing yeah jail thing of that but if I ever get banged up again for a long time which I please god hope never happens I'm saying please god I don't believe in him but figure of speech I'm going to get myself a pair of tits and I'm going over to women's league you can fucking do that fucking right I want to be a woman and I want to be known as Christine I'm getting over there because there's so many now and they just give you a pill stop getting on get a pair of tits and I want to be a woman and I'm getting over there and I'll be cuddling women what are we doing then I never cuddled a man yet though but I thought I was going to cuddle a woman when does it ever end for you Kevillet that's been it is still a mad life for people maybe not seeing the first one that watched us first and then come back like how's it been like what do you think you're a mad bastard I'm not going to lie like you're a characteristic you're a mad bastard but also a good guy you've always phoned me and said if you ever need anything or whatever you'd be in the heart beating I don't ever doubt that but how do you look back in your life and think fuck me what a ride it's only just beginning but I said this the other day literally you're hitting on things I've been discussing I was saying went to a dance floor that was 18 and they kicked off loads of people come to the area for a tear up in this disco pub up until 12 disco club when the disco started you know all the modern music started coming out on the screens and that you know MTV and all that they kicked off in there about 50 fellas fighting massive tear up and you couldn't see the dance floor from folks tearing up so I got a can of CS gas dived off of the fucking balcony bang all these blokes literally they were shoulder to shoulder fighting I stood up and just turned around my CS gas just turning around spraying it got them all out of the club and that was in the paper and I'm thinking why did I do that I didn't really need to do that to stop fighting might have been a long winded way but I used to do dark things like that I think I have done things that have maybe put me where I am today in how people receive me but in the same time I've had some fantastic times a lot of it was spent in prison there's a young man growing up being the character I am and the people I seem to associate with have mixed me all obviously real decent people and I'm proud of that real decent people so I might be a bit crazy I might be a bit wild I might be a good time but very kind and I'm a mix of kind people so so far the right I'm on it happened for a reason and I went to prison for a reason and that reason may be now this is my calling the TV's and such and the charity work that I do and obviously my home my new company module manufacturing limited I've designed a home out of Galvin I still and I can provide a home for £125,000 delivered turnkey beautiful black barn and I've also taken that house and I've had a structure designed superstructure on wheels to carry about to move it if I want if it isn't built out of foundations so that gives millions of people options in this country now under what's called portable and temporary accommodation where you can wheel the house in on wheels I can take the wheels off and load it and again that's another option but it's things like that that I'm enjoying now in my life that is another ride it's been very very hard and difficult believe me like hemorrhaging money setting it up and stuff like that and things going wrong but I wouldn't be here now doing this would I be doing that if I hadn't gone to prison would I be dead if I hadn't gone so I tried to think on the here and now and the positives and enjoy what I'm doing even though sometimes it can be real car crash recently I mean very difficult situations down to importation and using a company from Turkey that transport company was bogus not bogus but a bit cowboyish charging you more than you should have done and wasting 12 and a half grand on transport we could have saved and then other stuff learning curves about I'll give you a prime example design this product it came over we had to wait for my partner in Turkey to come over his visa was declined we had to pay £3000 to get his visa approved because we're unwrapping our first homes so we want to be here when we do it that took three weeks and a lot of money in the meantime the meadow where the home was where it was dropped off and delivered was wrapped in this super tarp hole all the way around it on the roof and everything for some reason they didn't put the tin sheet on top protection just to transport with the birds broke all crows pecked all holes all the steelers come through during Christmas coming up to November then the snow we had to get all the walls rip it all down take it apart and do it again we just come over brand new you have to strip it down the frame and put it all again that's odd when you're ill for two weeks for Christmas the cost you've got to find for that but although these are the problems I've had the last few days seeing the house is finished and put together you think all of that is worth it because I've designed a beautiful home that is going to help millions of people out I've got a little white house picket house for instance one bedroom 45 square metres squared £100,000 delivered to your Turkey beautiful and I was in them yesterday warm no heating on blistering outside we put one heater on the whole gaps warmed up so would I be doing all this now if I hadn't gone to prison who knows would I be doing the TV now no I don't think so see because you're free now can you still enjoy it because you know how good it has been for you with the years you've missed are you still better no I'm not bitter when I got banged up a couple of weeks in Shereeby doing this filming and we've done the bare necessities we had no water for the sanitation such we don't need buckets no electric kettle cold no eating just got home of it and I realised there was a poem about and there was a moment about it just you appreciate things then and you realise how easily you can revert back to what I've got to do to take care of myself and here now in terms of food preparation things I need even down to putting coat hangers up on the wall made out of matchsticks just get on and get on done with it some of us think fuck we haven't put my coat on that's the main problem this is the life I need now and it made me realise where I've been and where I am now where I want to get to I mean that is the only thing I ever took out of a course is where I am now and where I want to be fucking I don't want to be back in prison I don't want to be free, leading a good life and doing good with the money that hopefully I'm going to earn for a lot of people as well as provide homes for people that can't get them beautiful homes, they're morgishable as well if they come out of the foundation morgishable house, so I sell your house for £125,000 morgishable go and buy a bit of land if you've got a mission on it you've got to cheat with us so yeah I'm really happy with what I do at sales pitch that's what it's all about hoping people get involved have a look at the module manufacturing limited website or Instagram page that's just not finished yet because we're launching this month we've got a number of products on there as well as a website in Turkey it's palatial no money and they build out there they build in a way that we should be building over here putting houses up well they are now in many ways but I've got a house up in seven and a half days how long did these houses last morgishable structure wise houses are built in brick cement they'll last for 100 years, 200 years in London still buildings, galvanized still buildings or bridges British rail stuff, still standing there I've 100 years old so they won't be morgishable if they weren't going to be there for the next generation or after that that makes me focus when I've done these homes it makes me focus on what good there is for me left in life still to go forward that's what I like to do if you find something you enjoy you never have to work another day in your life do you and the faces, the smiles I see on people's faces when they've seen my homes they're like wow and I'm getting, like Alfie Best he's seen the product and Peter Führers and so on and so forth and I've discussed this before it's taken me a year to do it from being released from prison and I've sold everything I've borrowed, I've been lent money by my mother pals my fellow called Andrew George and he owes me £245,000 I was wondering about the borrow money from property investment I went into in Turkey bought me out, he's now banged up so that caused me problems when I've got no money for that and I'm about to go and get money he's, well I sold my car you know, I sold that so that hurt me and then I've nearly thought about pulling my watch the other month seriously because the cost which is coming in for all sorts of things with the damage to the property that hurts for all of that I'd still rather be out here with those problems than locked up in them shitholes watching the sadness and depravity going on around the landings and the violence and the deceitfulness that goes on in them gaffes fucking deceit, backstabbing shit a lot of it I'd rather be out here yeah that's the thing you break it all down, you're still out you'd rather have these problems than have the problems being inside you've got to keep yourself busy Kev, just to kind of stay focused and not think about the past as much I've always been a very busy man I used to have trouble going to sleep at night, just saying they're thinking a lot of people I breathe now, I do breathe in exercises and such, but no really, I've just always been a busy person proactive when you're busy and you get a lot more done I might not be busy being locked up in the cells was hard for me when I first went away because I used to walk back and forward I hadn't worked out a structure of keeping myself busy apart from working on the case and such for the first few years of it I had an Olivetti one and stuff like that, but just getting set up, getting into the routine of prison life were your cases were you ever just I know it's hard now because you came so far but would you ever just forget about it just to put closure to it to rest and just concentrate fully on your future no, never what that book does it's not just primary about my conviction if you look at it in the whole that book shows that the criminal justice system is in the fucking state still and it's still corrupt and they should be doing something about it more importantly why doesn't someone from the criminal justice come forward and still actually looking at the book we're going to conduct an investigation and we're going to come back here but they don't, you won't see that in England they don't like apologising to people when they're wrong even when they overturn their convictions so I'm buggered if I'm going to go away and let them do what they didn't do to me when I won't, no, I'll never do it get my conviction overturned, I'll stand on the court for a few steps and I'll tell you so I'm a free man now let's go to the pub and have a drink and I'm going to get on with my life I had the system as completely fucked I had a woman on just yesterday was it yesterday's death yesterday's Sarah Sands an old man sitting at the shop befriending and abusing three of her sons she went round with her blade, killed him she got three and a half years the system then doubled her sentence because she said it was too lenient she nearly got over seven years disgusting, so you go to some countries they'd see that as a crime of passion alright or like Spain you kill someone, you can pay their family off give them some reddies you know they might have killed the husband he's a breadwinner, you have to, you know they look upon it differently but that travesty there to that lady just I don't think we're very draconian in England aren't we there are laws and such ruthless yeah it's always America man somebody might have done a hundred years, two hundred years three hundred years it's fucking nuts we're going like America though, do you not think that? yeah and Glasgow used to be fifteen years from I don't know, people are getting 35 rex, 40 rex but what they're doing in Scotland is they're going through or do the offending behaviour courses they start progression you to go home you get your home leaves and stuff but they start sending through the system because they're saying you're doing the courses, you don't have to admit you're guilt, but you're doing the courses whereas in England they say you admit you're guilt I was very lucky where I did the offending behaviour, I did certain courses in the end that I didn't have to discuss my face, they took a judicial review my solicitor and won it they said if he reduces his risk to society in the prison, whether it's working in the gym, he's got to be security clear for that, he's going to escape risk if you're in there, because you know all the rest of it, go through the wall of a bleeding wage trolley, whatever I wanted to go to Scotland for that reason and see my family out there and they wouldn't hand me over to the English forest, they said you're not going to Scotland you're not going back there you stay near the surface get every day of your year, don't you? did you ever think about us getting him? do you know what? I had a way out okay and I spoke to a pal of mine over the phone the other day about it so I knew it would be useless for me, children say your kids need to kidney or something in their ear or something the escape was no option for me although he had me in that classification because I would always be tied to my children and if he needed me I would be there that's the sack of ice I made but I could have gone out and I had a way to get out and it was I told someone and I told one person in 2011 I had it years when I was being moved out of the prison system into a lower category when I was being downgraded because of this paperwork that my solicitor received and it was a long area and it's between the workshops, I can tell you about it now I told this person and I said look, I'm telling you now I said I've told him he's done a long time and I've worked up anyway fucking hell, I've been no time at all mate, that area was shut off they put helicopter wise so you had the workshops and from the workshop to the walkways when you come down it would have been fenced off and the walkways would be there and that was wide enough it's not fair to get 7.5 tonnes or you get a jug of milk down there it was that wide it was about 150-200 metres long I might call it straight down, straight off no problem and I told my pal I said that's where you can go if you want, been there for years I take off, no problem just laying down and go off again and the fella I told he threw it in and now he's going through the system but my mate I was discussing it with him the other day I said remember that so anyway, I had somewhere and I never looked into it, I just thought that is a way out and there's no screws there so they fly over they fucking fly all around the place where do you go with your life now Kev, I know you're busy with the projects that you're doing but what's the plans for the future? PORN STAR I can get you into that I haven't interviewed fucking loads of them fucking ally and I ain't cheap so I went to a porn star thing it was in Spiromint Rhino in London Christmas show then I took my partner from Turkey who come over, he's Muslim right so I got two of the birds to dance to take him out of the back there I said take all your clothes off and dance for him fucking ally he didn't know what he was eating and my partner was like Muslim Muslim but he was smiling the biggest grin he had on his face so I don't know what I'm going to do anyway I'm just going to come and do what I'm doing I want to get these ohms out and I want to get the conviction overturn continue seeing my myself go forward in positive way and enjoy life I love the film to be done without my case and there's been a lot of talk about that from a lot of people get the conviction overturned and then that would get me that would be a film straight away regardless but I feel things like I'm in the bread at the minute I'm nurturing it or nerding it we're getting it and I think that it's going to go that way the business will be successful I'm working hard enough for it you wouldn't believe the conviction gets squashed and I just retired somewhere a little bit more quieter away from people and I say that respectably and that I like to be on my own in terms of I don't like to live and build up areas because I've been surrounded by people for years in big houses like sardines and they're just carrying with my charity work and anything else and if I've got some money I wanted to leave something behind in the place where I grew up in Heirfield buy something that can be used by the community but it can only be used by the community and the profit stays with the community something like that you know it's the kids because I had a youth club when we were in there and I don't think there's so many of them now but something a bit more modern times where the kids can go there and learn something in terms of a skill or something so I'd like to do something like that they're all dreams in there what's your restrictions you've got in your life can you travel I can't leave, I can't go to Scotland I've got a family member up there who's ill at the minute and I can't go there without permission I can't go into half this year I can drive through it if I break down I've got to call the police and all that stuff people abuse in my position in terms of a lifer that dangled that recall phoned the police telling me to throw me the fellow that owes me money has just been banged up for fraud ripping people off and he owes me money for life so the profit is I can't go around his house and knock on his door aggressively I've been to his house he won't now spoke to his wife and said you need to know this is what he's doing I'm owed my money please and he's not making any payments and that's why I'm here because he's offering payments but nothing's ever coming but because of my conviction I can't go around there in a manner that he could report I'm glad they had ringtone on the door which gave me the backup I needed as well but I would rather deal with him in a far more aggressive way when it comes to this because unfortunately violence will work in place for negotiation here because this is just a fuck you job because of my conviction and the police can't help you but I may be after the case where I finally go to the police because he's threatening to have me nicked if I come near him so what do you do they're difficult times when you're owed a lot of money you need that bloody money so things like that cause me problems what would people think if I have to go to the police with my case and say listen I've got stuff here where Giza's pulsing strokes blatantly pulsing strokes he's now in prison for fraud he's fucking me he's not giving me my money back and he's threatening to have me nicked if I go and see him what would you do and it's two years now and I'm waiting for my money and other people's money that he's taken is that the hard thing caring when you're trying to go legit knowing how dangerous you can be and what you've done to then somebody trying to pull a fast one on you I'll take him away no problem he'd get straight in my motor in the boot he'd be in the boot of my car and I would fight him the life out of him if I didn't hurt him and I'll take him somewhere very dark okay and I'll tape him up spread eagle him to a tree read him his life history very quickly in a manner of speaking that he could be seriously injured if things if I wanted him to be if I was like that anymore but he would pay me and I see Matheos as well as talking about how to get people to pay he needs three mean mother fuckers who don't give a fuck and they will come and hurt you or they will hurt you or they're gonna hurt you and you will pay but if you don't have that people will just go see a lawyer so violence does work when it comes to making people pay and if you use the course of the land people haven't got the money to do that or the police are against them anyway if I threatened someone I'd be straight in that police station to be have someone giving it to me by using the police and then morally for me to go and do that now goes against the grain but society's changed maybe I have to use the tools now that he's using on me is he using your life license against you yeah see that's the thing my good friend I mean his missy says he had a gun and he had to do another five years it's disgraceful you lead my life now I do like worrying about fucking doing this doing that don't go there because you've got to avoid problems with the police you don't want to get in any trouble I won't go to a march in London peaceful protest and then I'm getting wrapped up because I've been pushed forward into him because I can't go back to climate change or something I can't go there there's many restrictions I have on me in my life now I'll lead it who I'm mixed with which is a good thing because that imposes a little bit of the puts the brakes on you I'm not so polite as they where I go now I wouldn't go somewhere a real rough house I ended up in a satan slaves club the Black Hills in Dundee I just went out on my own one night ended up there will I do that now or no because I'm a little bit parvin now before I'd throw caution to wind it was exciting now it's getting there so that keeps me out of a bit of trouble till I tell you the thing about the angel said to me when I was up there so I was taking there he was a kid to come out I started taking him I ended up in his clubhouse he got speakers as big as a door and they're broad Scottish accent and the music and I can't understand what he's fucking saying I can't understand the cousins were pissed and started talking so I look like imagine what I look like I can't something like that driving a new driving a nice BMW dressed in all green gear you know and he's shouting thanks for me I thought he said to me do you want a pill? I went yeah he said to me are you old bill he said get out so I get outside he said to me you fucking old bills I thought he said do you want a pill yeah up there them sort of incidents you know anyway give me a pill and I went back in but I'm not condoning either the fucking shit they are today I would imagine but not like the old days Mr Buschies Mr Buschies, Dennis and Menacea, Ruben Custer's you know one in your fucking going all night I'm really happy but the restrictions place things on me like that so that's a good thing yeah do you must still kev? I miss the old kev where people take liberties I wonder you don't tread on my toes I want to stamp on yours but if you're taking a liberty and you're treading on my toes I'm going to have to come and stamp on yours you don't have to use violence I mean taking that further away and fighting the life out of him that tells him what could happen or could have happened but that is a good nap holding someone forcibly using force to force imprisonment you get nicked for that and you go to prison for it whereas I used to see that it's just a word of him you go back a few more years and you had the local you'd go and see someone in the local area and they'd sort things out in the area like that like community sort of you know so you've got Colin Gunn and Dave Gunn Bestby Boys they had to police their state no burglars no car nicking they had like 300 strong firms I feel that they were able to do stuff for the community that the police couldn't people couldn't know who else is willing to get burgled by loads of f*****g Skaggids or Crackets I was searching for nicking wherever they can get around to and for gear the police can't protect everybody they're going to society they're going to the state now in the summer they're going to go to people in that area who are predominantly well known violent men who can take care of themselves to sort you might get someone who's a real arsehole you know like you get a good idea and someone say couldn't have happened to a better person like a nan would say you with me why a nasty bastard well sometimes these people need to be put in order because they're doing stuff inflicting hardships and pains bullying and such on people in the area real nasty people and they might have done something where it can be sorted out a lot easier do you have any regrets Kev? Loaves loads of regrets there's things that I wish I hadn't done in my life there's things I wish I had done but I didn't have any regrets in the manner where they eat you away or use those regrets to keep you doing the right that's what I do and hold on to them in the sense where remind yourself because pain they've caused you or pain you've caused someone else I hadn't done that or caused that or been parted to it or been subject to it myself I hold on to them for the right reasons for anybody that is struggling in life maybe in prison what advice would you have for them in prison maybe if they're in prison or just struggling in general you've got to find yourself in general it costs nothing to smile try and do one thing at a time one thing a day achieve one thing a day if you're not going out of bed tomorrow I'm going to make it tomorrow I'm going to sit in the front room or sit in the garden if it's a nice day grab a real fresh air for 5 or 10 minutes do one thing different that's positive whatever it is that you want to do different to what you're doing but you have to do that and then build on those positives and keep going forward what's all your social media links and that care for people that's moving what a message you drop your message talk about the book talk about your stories that what's your links go back to Instagram fit it up and find back facebook tiktok if you want to learn how to make some booze have a look at them right um twitter I don't really use that but I'm going to start using that because you get some good coverage on that especially with the Dominic de Souza podcast could that be you know twitter's probably I don't know if it's more the legal debate it's more inclined to have people of that nature I think maybe I don't know collectively so fit it up and find him back and the books I mean I've sold I've got to do another order of books books are flowing out just from my website alone 685 books last year just from my website that may not seem like a lot to some people but we've done such there's a thousand books gone that's without amazon that's without gardeners waterstones online we send thousands of books a year now and one family um that book done for the family and like you said I've read it back to back people sending there was some messages sent three out of those ten the other last month or so they said I just have to pick it up and read it again straight away and so I'm really proud of it yeah good on you do you like to finish up on anything? well I'd like to finish up on sometimes when things are so difficult against you amongst all odds I mean I've had real car crash this last since Christmas and before real car crash probably why I look so tired but there's people far worse off than me my mate Robbie Ireland's TikTok have a look at that the TikTok pictures of him walking around and being in hospital and shit like that riddled with illnesses and things and I thought I was all done by and I went up to see him and laughing and joking so yeah there's someone worse off than you and just keep going forward and smile kev that's always a pleasure mate I wish you all the best in the future and no doubt I'll see you in a few months for a good plant thank you very much cheers