 Welcome to Navara Media presents a special panel event at TWT 2021 here in lovely Brighton. Tonight, the topic is why are we hosting a super spreader event. You're fine, you're fine. Is that a dry cough that I had? No, tonight the topic is has Boris Blonett, the first two years of Boris Johnson's leadership, have been defined by a heady mix of both disaster and triumph, Brexit, a landslide general election win, a catastrophic pandemic by election wins and also one surprising loss. So I have here a mast for your delegation and delight, a superstar panel to discuss what is it that makes Johnsonism different from the conservatism of yesteryear and what's coming next. So working from ironically my left, we have got Dan Hodges from the Mail on Sunday. Please give him a round of applause because it's not easy coming in here and talking to you lot if you're even from the observer. So coming here from the Mail on Sunday really does take real cajonas. We have also got my sister in Leopard print. We have got Moeah Lothian McLean, the politics editor for Galdam who has also been a longtime friend of the show. You've been on downstream a couple of times and we all always loved having you on. And last but certainly not least we have got James Medway, former advisor to John McDonald, director of the Progressive Economy Forum and I happen to know an absolute devil on the dance floor also. I'm quite sure where you're going with that but that's fine. It's true, I've seen it with my own eyes. So I'm just going to throw you guys in at the deep end and maybe we could start with you Dan because we have gone through one of the worst COVID death rates in the world, multiple lockdowns. I'm now emerging into a gas crisis, potential food shortage, potential fuel shortage and yet the tories remain remarkably resilient in the polls. What is your explanation for that as somebody who is perhaps a bit more in touch with the right wing of politics than anyone else in this room? Well firstly I'd just like to thank you for that kind introduction and I'd just say I'm absolutely delighted to be here. This is actually it's like it's like doing a really professional GB news. It's wonderful. It's a real, it's actually very refreshing. Have you been hearing an advert for Ivermectin any minute now? Yeah by the way if you're watching from GB news don't worry I'm still delighted to do your stuff as well. Then are watching. No that's sure. Well no one's watching. No then not this. I'm sure this is very well. So why are the tories winning? Why are the tories winning? A number of reasons. One of the reasons is actually the pandemic. The pandemic has cut across politics in its entirety. It's been the only issue. It is an issue which I mean if you're one of the few people who've read Kirstalmer's 14,000 word opus. Can I just see if I show up? Who here has read the 14,000 word pamphlet? I just want to make a correction. A pan is only 11,500 words. What happened to the other two? Anyway, one of the very few things that I thought was interesting about that piece was the way that he accepted the framing of the pandemic as the sort of the defining issue of politics over the last few years and broadly, you know a number of people here may disagree, the general public's view is it was an external crisis? He did the best he could. He delivered the vaccine. Whether he wanted to lock down or not, whether he did would come out of it now, we're moving forward and so he's actually got a bit of credit for that and all the other issues that would have caused him, potentially caused problems, have been marginalised. The other, the second big problem or big advantage he's got is Kirstalmer who is Kirstalmer. I'm sure we'll bury the lead for the moment. I'm sure we'll come back to Stalmer later on. But the third thing is that maybe we'll come onto this because this is about primarily the Conservative Party. He is leader of the Conservative Party and Kirstalmer is leader of the Labour Party and has a leader of the Conservative Party. He has a number of fundamental advantages that any leader of the Labour Party in the present political circumstances doesn't have. But as I said, I'm sure we'll come on to that later on. How did you two explain the remarkable resilience of the Tories in the polls? Is it simply that as long as house prices are going up, their base of nihilistic homeowners obviously don't really give a shit? Well, I think, first of all, we have to look at the fact that the Tories have been aptly described as the most successful political party in the world. I think Bartony Blair, 30 years, I think it's Labour have only been power for the 18 years after the last 200, is that correct? Fundamentally, England is a pre-conservative country in the way they vote, and I think the pandemic, rather than being sort of aiding Boris and Cody, just sort of showed up the level of apathy and the lack of fight back that has been embedded in the population. So even when things are going terribly, still they don't believe in the political system enough because it hasn't changed enough, and it hasn't been challenged enough, that why would you actually want to invest in that in a meaningful way? So, you know, the people that I think the vote turnout in 2019 was down again. So when these Tories, when these massive majority, it was actually on less people coming out, but the people who come out and vote are more likely to be rapidly Tory because they care more. So I think it's less that the pandemic aided him, and aided the Tories and more. They just sort of showed up the system that underpins us all, which people get very apathetic about because why would it change if there's been no proof it can actually change? And to note that the only Labour leader who's been in significant power was described as the most conservative of all. You know, we've all got that famous Margaret Thatcher quote. So the Conservatives... Can you remind us of the famous Margaret Thatcher quote in case it's not that famous? Okay, famous Margaret Thatcher quote was that New Labour and Tony Blair Margaret Thatcher have regarded them as her greatest success. And when you look at contemporary reports in that time, you had Michael Goath being like, I love Tony, like Tony's great, like a lot of Tories really supported New Labour. So I sort of view them as part of the Conservative project themselves in a way. I mean, just looking over the last year, the two moments where you have a bit of a wobble in the polls are of course the Barnard Castle eye test incident and a little wobble around the National Insurance hike. So James, what do you think it would take to disrupt the Conservatives in the polls? If those are the two things which had a little bit of cut through and, you know, COVID death rate didn't, you know, the fact that, you know, every driver in England is queuing up around a BP right now. There's panic buying in Sanos. Doesn't seem to matter. Why is it those two things did, even if it was just fleeting? A couple of things. I mean, look, I think the pandemic has helped the Conservatives. I mean, you just look at the polls that they've got something which I think Dan's basically writing this. Most people fairly understandably treat as like this big terrible thing that's happened and the government has looked after them. If you want to be popular and you're in power, handing out large amounts of money to very, very large amounts of people is actually not a good way to do it. Like the supposed appeal of Rishi Sunak is very largely based on the fact that he's been overseeing the furlough scheme. And that's just lots and lots of money. Now, the challenge that we're going to face in October is that they talk about wanting to wind these things down, imposing universal credits cuts, all of these things where this big generous government, which Boris Johnson, who is not, you know, kind of, thatcherite, hardened near liberal Tory by any means, and then one of the big mistakes in Keir Starmer's 14,000 word epic, or 12 and a half. I don't want to know what was in the two and a half they dropped. I mean, it might have been the bit that really clinched it, but it's gone forever now. I mean, I was really looking forward to a plot twist or something. Like, come on, surprise us Keir. Socialism, you know, just in the middle of summer and they had to delete all of that. He had a sudden lurch back to his much more interesting incarnation as a member, or a supporter, or a close affiliate of the international revolutionary Marxist tendency in like 1986. So that would have been fun just to drop some of his earlier essays in the middle of it, but they didn't do this. You're really going back to, like, the deep cuts. Yeah, yeah, sorry. I'll pull back a bit. I'll pull back. I'm funny intriguing. I just find people's political journeys can be intriguing sometimes, and often people have these kind of interesting routes they take through life and Keir Starmer has potentially had one of those. So what was I going into this? Oh, yeah, everyone loves Boris Johnson. The reason being it's a big, scary, terrible thing. The government looked after them. The challenge for the government, and Labour has seemingly bet the farm on this, is that the government will stop looking after people and revert to evil or bad Tories at some point fairly soon, like November or October when the spending review turns up. Maybe they'll do that, but on the whole, given that they want to win the next election, there's no real reason for them to do that. If they want to win the next election, I don't think they're very likely to do that. And if you've got Labour sitting there going, oh, but they're still bad Tories, it's completely unconvincing for most people. I don't think most people perceive them like this anymore. I think they see a government that's tried to look after people and here's the cash that shows they have done. Now, they might be wrong about this in so many different ways. There's three million people who haven't had any support throughout all of this, really, beyond the barest minimum. So they're kind of wrong in lots of ways, but they think of it like that. If it's going to change, I think it's a couple of things. One, I think that already you can see union organisations picking up and people pushing for higher wages. That's one part that's going to shatter, I think, what this government does. The other part is, if we had a Labour party that was going to exploit something like the national insurance hike properly and say we're the party working people, that means most people and we're going to tax a rich to pay for this, they're going to pay the cost of this, not most people. And if we're clear and direct about it, that might start to break what the Tories are doing. As it is, flapping them out in a kind of vaguely social democratic fashion saying Tories are bad, but we're nice. I summarise the 14,000 words isn't really going to cut. No, I think you'll find that the Keir Starmer message is, Tories are bad, we're shit also, but please vote for us for some reason. But this kind of takes me into the next question, which I guess I would like, you, Moira, and Dan to pick up on, which is what does the distinguished Boris Johnson's approach to these crises that we've described compared to say David Cameron or Theresa May? Because when you think about the story of Johnsonism, it's of taking on his party, smashing it to bits, and quite effectively fashioning it in his own image. That's what the removal of the whip from the 21 MPs I think quite effectively achieved and what we ended up with was a vote leave government. So what is so different about Boris Johnson compared to his predecessors? Is it simply that we don't know how many children he has, he's, you know, he's in a non-enogamist relationship between them? We actually know that now, didn't he admit it, didn't he fess up? I think he's about six. About six. How many children you have? About six, that's the answer. Yeah, about six, but that was last week. If you have to answer that question with, I've got six kids, give or take. I think the thing you have to understand about Boris and the difference between Cameron and May is the time, is the sort of the political time that Boris and all of us are living through. So we are currently living through the era of political populism and that's not just something we see here in the UK, we've seen it in the United States, we see it more broadly. And this is one of the fundamental, you know, I was talking about before about fundamentals. This is one of the fundamental political advantages Boris has. In the era of political populism, Boris can play the entire pitch, right? So he can play, he can play the Tory side of the pitch. He can say, the political populism moment requires me to put a really massive big union jack in my office and create a big row over that. The problem is the moment as far as I perceive it means I can give a nod and a wink to people who are booming in the football team for taking a knee. He can say, right, let's push back migrants and if a few of them drown tough, right? So he can do all that sort of, you know, right wing populism. But he has the capacity to do left wing populism as well. So he can turn around and say, actually, you know what, I think what people want at the moment is, you know, they're worried about the health service. So I will completely break my pledge on tax rises. I'll raise taxes and I'll pump that money in the NHS. If a railway company goes bust, he'll say, I didn't really want to do it. I'll bring it back into public ownership, right? So he can play left wing populism, he can play right wing populism, play left wing populism. Well, if he has to, great respect to everybody sitting here. You guys can't do that. You guys can only play one side of the pitch. You can only play left wing populism. The idea that anyone here would count on right wing populism and lathema. So whilst I entirely respect where you're coming from on that, you're starting the game. You're starting the game with seven players and he's starting the game with 11 players. And that's a big advantage that the Tories have got at the moment. I mean, it also helps that he's got oligarchic capital behind him as well. It doesn't hurt. Yeah, no, it doesn't hurt. But yeah, you know, he's going to have that anyway, isn't he? So I'm just talking about, you know, some of the political realities. I would actually kind of agree with that, which is disgusting to hear. That was quite astute. I can't wait for your column in the mail on Sunday, Moe. Oh, they would never let me. I mean, I only have vague unthawnt thoughts on this but I think, yes, what Dan was saying is right in that Boris is essentially, he's always been a performer and he's been, he is Teflon for a reason because he can slip between different modes very easily. He doesn't really have any strong principles beyond, I would say, the pursuit of power being right according to his own weird moral code. Whereas David Cameron was sort of a void of modernisation. He was a shiny void attempting to modernise the Tory party, which I think eventually took him down because he betters his entire political career on going up against real old, old right wingers who belong to them. Boris also belongs to the sort of, he can play like the classics, he can play like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm old school, here's the nostalgia, blah, blah, blah, but you can also play like I'm fun, I'm new, like, well, I've hired this new New Zealand social media team who know exactly how to spread populism and fear along the internet. Like he can do both those things. Whereas Theresa May had very, very deeply and had, even though I didn't agree with them, some strong principles that she stuck to and you could just see her crumbling and crumbling over wanting to rigidly stick to this idea of what she thought was right even when it came up against the party and it destroyed me then because she was this lone person. She just didn't have belief in her own abilities. Whereas Boris, he will always believe in himself even when he's very wrong. He's bullish and that's what works. If you, you see it against Keir Starmer, like he and Keir going ahead, hey, Keir's very like, I'm forensic, I can catch, it doesn't matter when the person you're up against doesn't give a shit. Um, and he's just, he just looks, he just looks ridiculous trying to pin this person down. He's like, I can't be pinned down while having fun. So I think, I think Boris, if you move fast and you can break things constantly, no one can catch up with you because he's not playing by any rules. Everyone else played by a certain set of rules and he's not constrained by them, which again, it is the idea of being able to slip into populism. He has a cunning primal instinct for the road that will either get him power or take him out of the hot seat or deflect attention. And it's very hard when you're dealing with a country that's both divided or thinks considers itself divided and can't agree. And also, oh, see? And also when you're up against, you know, the left, we're constantly arguing about which path is the right path and my done internal debates. Whereas Boris can unite the right around like the figurehead of we've got to stay in power all else. We've got to preserve the power. It was funny that you identified that dynamic between Johnson and Starmer, which is you can't pin down somebody who fundamentally thinks that you're kind of silly and thinks the whole thing is silly and it's got a bit of a smirk. And I thought that, you know, you don't hear very much about Keir Starmer being forensic or loyally anymore. He comes across as kind of an exasperated deputy head whose school is in special measures. And you might not think that he's doing great at his job, but you can see he's really trying. And the mystique is gone. Whereas Boris Johnson, I think is able, as you said, to slip between these different registers of smirking. I'm not taking it that seriously. And then when he's doing his very best Winston Churchill impression and absolutely loving it in a way that Starmer isn't able to play. And also the way that Corbyn was never able to be anyone other than himself. I think that was both his appeal and also one of the things which ultimately, you know, brought him down in the end. But if we can just maybe probe some of these questions about culture and culture war just a little bit more, because one of the things you said is, you know, the left, you can't just stick up a massive flag and hope that it's all going to be okay. How successful has the culture war tilt been for Boris Johnson? Of course, there's some stuff which has gone really well for him, started having arguments on his terms about things like people seeking asylum, about things like flag and patriotism, but it's also possible to take it too far. So when Boris Johnson and Priti Patel were giving a kind of nod and a wink to the people who were booing at the England football team and they were taking the knee, that turned out to kind of blow up in their face unexpectedly. So Moir, I know this is something which you're quite interested in, which is the way in which culture plays out on the terrain of politics. How successful has culture wars been for the Conservative Party? Well, usefully, KCL policies did a big study into the culture war. So they identified the base in short. The culture has been very successful at energising the Conservative base. So the Tory base are much more invested in the culture war and the other people are going to turn out and actually vote, whereas actually 40% of the country are either disengaged or moderates on things like the culture war. They say they don't know in answer to questions about the define the culture war. They say they're not really sure. Whereas the people who are defined as like the traditionalists who are like 55 plus, patriotic nostalgic, 56% of them say that they're against Black Wise Matter. These are the people who more like to vote Tory. And I think it was something like Tory supporters are over half of the Tory supporters think that the UK culture has changed too fast. So basically the culture works for the people the Tories are trying to appeal to and that's all they need. They just need that. They need just to energise their base enough and they're the ones who are going to turn out and they're the ones who are going to vote. Whereas I do think, I mean, among most of them, I imagine the people here, the culture war is either something that we get bogged down into arguing about or we just don't want to stop hearing about it together and move the discussion on. But the problem is that the terms are set by the media mostly and the media is majority right wing press. I think there's only two papers in the mainstream media that would even be considered a bit left. And that's the Guardian and the Daily Mirror. Even they very much feed into this as well. So when you're up against odds like that, always surrounded by this idea of the cultural. So even if it's not born out exactly in the population, the way we think it is, it's still effective enough. So yeah, even though it backfires, the problem is it's working well enough on the terms they need it to. I mean, James, do you agree that cultural war is all the Tories need to energise their base? No, I think. Well, I wouldn't say all. I just want to say I don't think all. A little closer to the mic a bit more. A couple of things in that. I think it energises a section of the base and they now have a sort of institutional form, the various kind of very shouty radio stations and the aforementioned GB news and this sort of thing. There's a sort of element to the Tory base that's around that often actually this shades into being the most critical from the right on what the Tory party is doing. These are the people who will bang on about Boris Johnson being a communist or whatever because like we had to do a lockdown or something like this. I think there's a few anti-vaxxers hanging around here by the way. You're into this sort of really slightly unhinged end of politics by that point, but nonetheless it's sort of there and it gets mobilised in particular by the culture wars issues. The bit that really sticks out for me on the culture wars stuff and you have to think about who's advising him, who's most associated with the culture wars. It's Manera Mercer isn't it in number 10 Boris Johnson's policy advisor who is associated with spikes and the living Marxism crowd and all of these sort of people. Someone who kind of knows the left a bit and the big advantage of the culture wars is that it messes the left up. It sets you off around about all sorts of mad stuff that people just think why are you rowing about this thing and off you go and that's brilliant because it stops you talking about a whole load of other things or even talking about culture war issues in a useful way. The Black Lives Matter thing over the the European Cup was great because it got everybody in the same place saying the same thing in a massively popular fashion. It wasn't disruptive on the left. There's a whole load of other things that keep shocking out that basically set off these arguments on the left in the most unproductive way possible and that I think is why they do it. Look Dan, I follow you on Twitter. You love a bit of culture wars. I've got to be honest. I'm going to slightly disagree with that. I don't actually love the culture wars. But you're so good at it. Am I? Culture wars is one of those issues that I kind of try to stay about and stay outside of. I think if you actually would look back on my Twitter feed it's one of what you find consistently I've actually said is I've tried to sort of say at the left you need to stay out of the culture wars. I mean I was actually, no I mean seriously. Fair enough. Save the heckling for the Q&A bit. The Q&A bit. The heckling's good. I was actually discussing this with a, what do we call them? I received from a senior cabinet minister a few weeks ago. Can you tell us what their name rhymes with? I really can't. Johnson Boris. No it wasn't. I was asking about the culture wars stuff and he was basically saying we do it because it's an easy win. It's an easy win for us and it's not that the culture, it's not that what they sort of disseminate in relation to the culture war energises at their base. It's the left to response that energises at their base. I said it at the beginning you know they'll put a big union jack up in the office and suddenly they'll be a bigger out about the union jack and they win. I mean you were talking about the black lives matter stuff. Yeah got a bit messy for them in the middle of the European Championships when everyone was behind the team and they were kind of seen to be but at the end of the day their perception is when we come to the next election they want to they want to build a wall. They want to build a wall or a fence or whatever. They want to have themselves one side of that wall and they want to have the Labour Party in Black Lives Matter the other side of the wall and we can all have our own views on taking the in Black Lives Matter or whatever. That's their strategy and they're successful and it's not actually a marginal part of their strategy. It's actually quite a it's quite a core part of their strategy because and it's not a deflection strategy. I mean this is the mistake that people make oh they do this because it means that people are talking about you know they want they want people talking about this. They want people talking about this because they think every time it comes to one of these cultural issues they can manage to get themselves on the side of where mainstream opinion is like something on Black Lives Matter where they think actually you know people aren't quite the line with BLM and they can push the left and the Labour Party the other side. So when we come out well you know as we get in the run up to the next election we'll see that you know that famous photo of Keir taking a knee and you'll see the photo of Keir taking a knee and then NSK is not here. You won't see if Boris is taking a knee or any of his cabinet taking a knee and they you know so the reason why they push the cultural staff is because it works there. Why wouldn't they? Let me put this to you guys because I was speaking to a former Conservative strategist whose name rhymes with shmomonic dummings. Was this by text or? Yeah I just changed my name to Laura Koonsburg and the answers came flowing in. And one of the things that he said to me is there is a culture war in the left has won it. What? And what I think he was talking to is that we're talking in quite a narrow cultural space when we're talking about culture as it exists in politics. So does Keir Starmer take the knee or doesn't he? But what does that matter when Lewis Hamilton takes the knee and the England football team takes the knee? When Beyonce comes out for the Super Bowl all of her dancers are dressed like Black Panthers and they're in a big X shape. When it comes to where popular culture is as a whole progressive values have won. So is that perhaps driving a sense of paranoia amongst the Conservative party is they see where young people's heads are at and it's certainly not iron round. Sorry can I just say you know and you know the great respect to obviously commonic dummings or whatever shmomonic dummings shmomonic dummings who as we know has has the best interest of the Conservative party and the Conservative government Boris Johnson. He likes you doesn't he? He certainly loves me we're best we're best mates and I love him too. Yeah I mean in a sense shmomonic comings is absolutely right about that you know. In that element of the culture wall you know you Lewis Hamilton's Beyonce knows. Absolutely absolutely absolutely thank you. I'm so out of touch with popular culture this is what the man on Sunday does see. He's absolutely right I mean you know you've won those guys but how does Lewis Hamilton giving some sort of some statement or some speech on on these issues how does that play amongst the voters of Hartlepool who you need to win? How does that play amongst the voters of Bishop Auckland? I mean I know how the Tories see it. The Tories want that definition. The Tories want to be able to say yeah rich celebrities they're with they're with Keir Starmer they're in Starmer's camp. Well look James you're from the red wall is it true are you all just knuckle dragging racists up there or maybe it's that a bit of a stereotype in there at young people and people of colour too? I'm glad I'm glad to be racist. I like caricature of what I just said. Oh come on how are you going to win? Well yeah we're talking about Hartlepool rather than Wigan for example so it's the west the right side of the Pennines rather than the wrong I suppose but just that's the whole culture war issue that we haven't ever explored I don't think. Look it does infuriate me because not so much because the Tories do this because they've got an obvious reason to try and talk up the idea that if you're from the north of England you're sort of massively fed up with a Labour party which is tremendously woke and full of these awful liberal people from the the cities and this sort of thing you've got a clear advantage in doing this you want it to be an argument around the red wall that looks like this so-called red wall that looks like this rather than what's really going on here and I think I want to say of all people but Sebastian Payne the FT journalist book makes this point if you read The Economist from a couple of months ago it makes this point actually if you go to some of these places in the so-called red wall you can see it is that what you're dealing with is a load of actually quite well off people often in you know sometimes quite often retired particularly if you're voting conservative retired in a nice house which is going up in value and you think actually if you're one of these people you think things aren't too bad and that's a classic Tory voter it's not some magic new culture war thing that's been slipped in here it's actually some of these places are nice and they have better off people who lo and behold are behaving like better off people in nice parts of the country in the voting Tory you don't need all the culture war stuff the culture war stuff is there to get into our heads and get us fighting amongst ourselves and it's that cynical it is not the necessary thing that delivers conservative victories and what looks like conservative Gemini at this point. I'm a bit conflicted on this because I do think that just because figures from popular culture are you know on our side if we put it in those terms I don't think it really makes like it doesn't mean we've won what we call the culture war but also didn't in the last election 2019 election I think there was something it was like the vote wasn't divided by class lines as clearly as it had before in fact the concept has increased their vote among lower social yeah C2DE groups so I think all that James's point is obviously you know correct we can't forget that as well I think what we're talking about when we say the public culture thing is is more importantly when we're talking about say the England team or Lewis Hamilton the point is that they're younger that's the group that's going to be coming up who are going to challenge this but are they going to vote Labour is the question because if there's not a viable opposition that they actually want to believe in and they have deeply deeply held principles I think it's something like 67% of young people now support socialism and if Labour as a political force are where they are right now which is nothing near that you know I'm no longer a member of the Labour party and I for the first time ever I'd probably say like I couldn't vote for them in their current iteration is that how people of my age you're going to feel in which case you know we're looking at a case where the other Tories are going to keep winning perhaps because we haven't got a viable opposition that we actually feel inside that it's that decision between your principles and investing in the political sort of parliamentary politics so that's the real question but I get going back to that basically the the too long didn't read answer is that I think it shows we have young people on side but they all just happen to be very rich and famous young people who can say these things publicly in the media will actually report it but before we I think get too wedded to the narrative of Tory invincibility there was a chink in the blue wall this year the loss in Cheshireman Amisham so Dan maybe you could tell us a bit about how has this been received in Tory circles are they worried about the ability of parties like the Liberal Democrats or perhaps Labour or even the Greens maybe eating up into their vote share in the so-called blue wall and what are they going to do about it I've got to be honest with you they're not worried about Labour reading into the blue wall they are they have got concerns about the Lib Dems they've got sort of sort of slightly more marginal concerns about the Greens but I think you know obviously there are a wide variety of issues about that Brexit is still playing apart there um there is absolutely no doubt that Boris that you know Boris's perceived move towards a more populist model of Toryism is creating some concerns there but frankly the biggest issue if you speak to any Tory in relation to what happened there was the planning was the planning reforms and again you know this is what the Tories do you know could you explain the planning reforms to those who might not be familiar and make it sound sexy if you can I really can't because I don't really understand them myself but to put it bluntly the Tories were going to this is really ludicrously simplistic so it's kind of kind of what I enjoy but um it's uh but it's it's kind of like to deal with you know to deal with uh housing problems they were basically going to let just let let let people build on wherever they want to you know build on you know the local county cricket picture whatever and that create a lot of issues there's a little bit of HS2 thrown in there I couldn't quite get bottom of that myself I mean nothing wrong with the Brits more than if you build over a local dogging spot and and and that was it but I I think in you know in in in a broader sense and I you know again I'm just going to have to be entirely honest with you all we are the idea there is some you know sort of a broader liberal you know center left cavalry coming to the rescue that's going to start you know taking out these they'll get that seat back in the next election you know and that's not you know I wouldn't I really wouldn't hang your hat on that one what do you reckon what I mean look at unfortunately I'm forced to agree this this is happening uh almost too much this is at this evening I think but I think it's kind of it's kind of but look how they've immediately responded to it that yes it clearly was like the planning issue and the fact that people particularly conservative voters were worried about loads of new houses being built next to their nice sort of leafy part of the world and immediately in the reshuffle it's Michael Gove has gone and taken over housing Michael Gove is not someone who holds to the let's rip up the planning system and build houses everywhere view of things financialisation the housing system that is about whether or not we're building enough houses so they've responded immediately to this they've closed that thing off I think so I suspect you're right that they will get the seat back because they're not going to go out and just build you know build build build across the the southeast of england as the the louder voices at the Institute of Economic Affairs would have us do also thing is just to note that in by elections it's much easier to do what we'd call a protest though then in the general election where people are more likely to ultimately protect the party they want in power but there is a matter here of demographics we've talked about age groups and we should also probably talk about home ownership where Tories have been really effective at picking up seats it's in constituencies which we've got 50 plus percent home ownership where they do less spoils where there's a high concentration of tenants now obviously that overlaps with age because if you're under 40 you are less likely to own a home because you were quite frankly born at the wrong time sucks to be us um how worried are the Conservatives about changing demographics the fact that their base is going to put this delicately age out of the electorate at some point and you have a generation of young people who both economically don't have a stake in society as it's been organised because they don't own a home they're on low and stagnant wages they're into your high cost of living but also socially their values aren't aligned with the Conservative party are there people within Tory circles you've got one eye on that looming crisis or are they just like screw it like Elon Musk is going to invent you know perpetual life of boomers we don't have anything to worry about no i mean there are there are a number of people in the Conservative party who are concerned about that um you know they're worried about what you know what demographics are going to mean for the you know what's going to be the 2022 2023 election um and there were there were Conservatives who were worried about demographics what demographics would mean for the 2010 election and there were Conservatives who were worried about what demographics would mean for the 2015 election the 2017 election and the 2019 election again you know you know you may you made the very good point at the beginning Conservative party is the most effective political party in in western political democracy and again it's it's you know i'd love to i'd love to say it's you know again the cavalry's coming you know and this time it's it's young people you know it's it's this spectrum is not you know it's not people concerned about the green bell it's young people are coming the young people are coming right the cavalry are coming if you want to beat these guys you want to beat these guys no i mean seriously i mean and obviously you you know i wouldn't agree to get you to agree with me if you want to beat these guys you've got to want to beat them right so i was having a chat with uh i don't feel to the very pure hatred down no but you know i was having a chat with a uh a Tory minister last week we were having a drink it's it's kind of what's what's the name of it kind of hang it's what i do and it didn't i didn't i generally didn't say i was doing this event or doing a Tory event and an event talking about the Tories and you know he was saying to me he was saying you know the difference between us and you got you know he's still he's still foolishly he thinks i'm sort of sees me as Labour and he said the difference between me and you know you know us and you guys is you know we exist for one thing we exist to govern you know and that is our focus everything we do you know you were just talking about you know gov he's going to change this and he's going to change you know that is that is the fundum again back to the fundamentalist it's the fundamental difference you know you laugh back here starmer and we can talk about i can go on about Jeremy and all that sort of stuff these guys keep winning different leaders different circumstances these guys keep winning and you guys keep losing and there's something fundamental there that you need to think about that goes beyond a little bit of the micro stuff we're talking about i think you know that's if you want to win if you don't want to win then carry on the way you're doing a good job you know carry on i do i do you think that fundamentally as we've just i think we've discussed and covered the Tories as you say exist to govern and lead and they are made up of elites who've passed down that sort of hereditary status again again and don't just mean like hereditary through blood i mean like the elite status they're all part of that social elite they buy into the idea of a social elite and they appeal to a country that is so used to subjugation that they also buy into it too and they i think the problem is that on the left we often have principles which is great and we believe in more kind of light and try and we divide it because that because we have different ways of going about it right whereas the Tories they they're organised around and they can use the politics of fear very easily and the user politics of sort of like this myth making they're much better myth making than us would you not say yeah well if you convert that into are they better at lying than us yeah that's what i mean myth lie but they say it is myth making and even the fact i call it myth making surely that shows how effective they are doing it um but i'm sure james has something else to say on it yeah look i quite like explanations for why we're doing badly and it could be it sort of boils down to we're just really noble and the other lot that wasn't can i just say that's not one of the things i'm saying i'm saying we in this room are noble them over there are not no no i think i think we're just less competent with our malevolence yeah maybe that's how that's how we're gonna you know i don't mind malevolence if we're good at it but the problem is is i'm a not good at it you know it's a peter tail isn't it the tech entrepreneur he said he'd rather be thought of as evil than incompetent he's the guy who runs palantir he's a big trump backer um it's yeah i that was a complete uh side track um the the why why are the tories doing well why do they continue to do well yes it is partly just the sort of absolutely ruthless focus on how you win look what boris johnson did when he when he got to be leader like he just wiped out the remaining side of the tory party immediately that was that imposed himself honestly on it he has this incredibly now disciplined political party in practice they can gripe and shout and we can all get very excited about which bit of the tory party is round which with which are the bits which by the way the point of which politics turns into like rows between factions inside one party that wins all the elections is the point at which you're in a very very weird political setup this isn't like a functioning two party democracy it's like japan with the liberal democrat party so cold it's dominated for the 50 60 years that sort of thing it's like weird little factional disputes not politics as between parties at this point in time which i think is also i don't want to do i agree with dan again but there is this bit where you have to kind of well what's what's going it's the it looks to me like this is a system that's completely gummed up and it's gummed up in favour of one party not us right so if you want to change it you have to step back from that electoral thing and find something else that's going to change it like you have to think bigger than just who's doing what you know even who's leader of the Labour party yes it does make some difference no it isn't the decisive factor here so you have to step back and say okay whatever things can we bring into play what should the left in general be doing that starts to crack open what is a gummed up system in electoral politics and would that start to look like for example what i think will be a large number of strikes and protests and all the rest of it around wages and prices and these sort of things over the next few months i think that's what people are doing i think that's i think that's something that's already happening and has been happening it's just that people i mean at least i'm just speaking from an act dose perspective people my age are divesting from parliamentary politics they are taking that step back but that means that you know the Conservatives are going to keep winning and you have to sort of make that choice but this brings me on to my next question and i'm going to have to ask about your best mate again i'm afraid Dominic Cummings which is he was somebody who provided an ideological frame for Boris Johnson to operate with him he had a theory of change and it was successful up into the point where it wasn't um which was use brexit as an issue to smash open the British state and then try and have a go at reforming how governance works in this country that was the bit that he didn't quite manage to get to what is johnsonism without Cummings clearly not as good as coming up with catchy slogans that went from get brexit done to was it coal cars cash trees for cop 26 you remembered it though i did but i remembered it because it's it's stupid it's like so which of these do we like and which don't we like do what about build back better build back better harder better faster stronger brilliant um what is wrong without without Cummings and are we seeing a bit of tutor i guess ideological flaming bailing about without that kind of single vision of what needs to get done and what line stick to yeah that's a very good question that's the one we we keep on asking but i think first Felly, mae'n ffordd, dyna'r ffordd, mae'n ddechrau. Yn ystod, mae'n cymysgwch cymysgwch, ac Boris wedi bod yn cael ei ffordd, sy'n ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio. Ac rwy'n cael ei ffordd, oedd yn ddigonio, mae'n ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio. Yn amser, Ychu, e heavierllaol fel dechrau. Yn amser, y t shredw'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonio'r ddigonioƏ0? Yn llawer, Wille, ble e ychydig ein efffordd yr leftover sefydmmm. Dyna fod eraill yn ffordd yn y cerdd neu amaet, a'n holl blynyddoch chi wedi gael y gael bod Mahmoudau'n ddeithasfodol. Dyna, mae'n rhoi'n ddechrau i'w golygu arall, gyda'r cyfrifiad ar hyn o'r gwaith er�annu. Mae'n rhoi'n ddechrau i'w golygu ar hyn o ddechrau sydd wedi cael deithasfodol. Mae'n roi'n roi pan oedd unrhyw datblygu. Mae'n roi'n roi pan oedd unrhyw. Mae'n roi'n roi'n roi pan oedd unrhyw datblygu, ond mae'n roi'n roi'n roi ddweud. Ond ydy'r rhaid, yn ffordd o'r pethau, yn dda oherwydd mae'n dweud i hynny'n gwybod gydag yn ein bodi'n ddiogelau a'r ddyglasigau yn dda o'r ddylch. Mae'r gael, mae'r llei yw'n dweud â'i gweld, rwy'n nhw'n mynd i'n mynd i'n rhaid. Mae'n ddoch, mae'n ddysgu'n ddysgu'n ddysgu, dyma'n ddysgu'n ddysgu'n ddysgu'n ddysgu'n ddysgu. heddiw i'n starr. Mynd rwyf wedi bod Llywodraeth Cymru, cyd-hyfyddiad i'r gyfer i'r pwynt sydd o blwyddyn, yn fengyrch o'r llwyr o'r cyd-hyfyddiad i'r llwyddiad. So bod ydych yn grwlad y cyd-hyfyddiad i'r llwyr o'r llwyr o'r cyd-hyfyddiad. Ydw i'n rwyf wedi bod y cwrnod ddechrau. Yn gwybod ffirodoedd y llwyr o'r cyd-hyfyddiad. ac efallai mae'n ddweud i'r ddiweddol i'ch gael ei wneud yn hynny yn ymwneud. Felly, mae'r cymhiliadau i'r dylunio'r cyflwyno iawn i ddwylo'r gwahanol iawn. Mae'r ddweud i ddweud i ddweud i ddweud i ddweud i ddweud. Mae'r ddweud yn ffaith yn y genna'r leisiad felly mae'r ddechrau i ddweud i ddweud. A Byrys yn ei ddweud i'r ddweud i'r ddweud, yn ymddiwch yn ymddiwch yn dda, Dyna, ond chy ofenwyd e'n ffordd fel yw gyntaf! Roeddwyd yn eu bodai eich cymlwyd ar mewnay iawn i'r hyn. A yw ychyr enw yn dda hwn i'r hyn o'r honnig, rydyn ni sy'n gwych am ddelych i'r rhywbeth oedd yn ymdiynau. Rydych chi'n byw'r ddal y cyflwynt ar gyfer yng Nghymru. Felly hefyd efallai w八 bod ni i fy ychydig hefyd yn ddu o'r hyn i'r hyn o'r hyn o'r rhywbeth. Rydyn ni sy'n cymryd yn yr hyn. pan ydych chi wfal o'r dweud o'r meddwl sy'n meddwl i sicrhau o'r bod erbyn y gwneud yn會w, mae mae'n meddwl ei wneud beth yn ei bod arbennig ac mae yna ored wedi bod yma piwetos o'r meddwl, oherwydd mae'n meddwl o'r hyn o'r wneud o'r meddwl, eich hefyd yn yw'r braf, ac yn ni i'n meddwl, mae'n meddwl bod bod Boris Johnson i'w sig at ei ffmouth newid. Wedi ychydig nid yn gweithio'r hynny, y wneud i'r resin cyfnodd o'r hurri. yn y spesul las decad 15 ysgrifennu. Let's say, sens David Cameron got elected as Tory leader back in 2005, you see versions of what Toryism is and attempts to shape it that involve a great deal of kind of intellectual thought, like the fact that they do have policy think tanks like policy exchange and a few others, putting the effort in to work out what it is they do next. They've got a great deal of time and resource and efforts in doing this. There are now a spectrum of sort of Johnson-esque Tory think tanks busily coming up with environmental policy of various sorts, which they've decided the thing to do. This isn't just a purely pragmatic adjustment to whatever is there. It's an attempt to shape a political reality. And there's a reason why Michael Gove to once again mention him, unfortunately, talks about Antonio Gramsci. There's a reason he talks about it because he understands it as like you have to win something like hegemony, you have to win the ideas that people have and you have to shape those ideas and that's how you get power. That's certainly how he understands Gramsci and that's like they dedicate a great deal of time to doing and it's easier for them because they're in government so you can control the you run the education system. You can set these things. You have media that supports you. It's much easier, but nonetheless, that is an intellectual exercise. It isn't just pure pragmatism adapting to whatever happens to be floating around in the air at any point in time. I mean, we are going to go to audience questions in just one second. And I think if the technology is set up, I'll be able to include some questions from our viewers online as well. But before we do, I've got one last very quick question for the three of you. Who's the next Tory leader going to be Boris Johnson forever ever? It's probably going to be Rishi, surely, surely. One for Rishi. God, I think Dan's not saying anything. I'm going to wait for him to say. Yeah, I am a little failed. I'm going to say Liz Tross. Oh, actually. So annoying. I'm not sure I've said it. No, I think I don't think Rishi. I think he's stupid enough to push through. You see the universal credits cuts and a few other things, not him. It's Liz Tross, who's really shot up on the inside in terms of popularity with the membership in the Tory party, because I think they still get a vote. I mean, that's a rare thing, isn't it, in this day and age? And actually, you know, has been to repeat the point about being quite consistent about what post Brexit Britain looks like, the work they've done in trashing data protection and saying this is quite a radical sort of free market part of the economy they want to push through. I can see Liz Tross doing it. Oh, so two for Liz Tross, one for Rishi Sunak. I mean, I truly don't know because it could be anyone at this point. But, you know, these guys saying Liz Tross, so maybe I'll just go with the wind now, change my vote. And that's why the Tory party keep winning. All my political predictions are always wrong. This is why I don't want to try to second guess myself. I suck at political predictions. I'm not a predictions person and that's valid. Anyway, follow me on Twitter for more great insights. So now we have got a generous chunk of time for an audience Q&A. So please raise your hand and somebody will come to you with a microphone. So let's go first, a grey turtleneck and then white t-shirt. So keep your hands up so that there we go. As a 19 year old student who's going to be leaving university with 27 grand debt, not going to be owning a house and climate crisis looming, can we have hope? We certainly should. Can we have hope? Is there hope? Do you want Dan Hodges to answer that question? Because if you do, you really are screwed. Wait, my my my answers are that would be it depends where you put your hope. I think if you're investing it as you probably have guessed from what I've said this evening, if you invest in it totally in parliamentary politics, you may be disappointed, although don't divest completely. But I do believe that one of the reasons the parliamentary left have gone so left, I guess you could spell it. Why they've gone so wayward is because they lost touch with the grassroots and the base and those strongholds. And I think you have to build on your own doorstep first and resist the atomisation of communities. So I think there is hope, but you're going to find it in each other as opposed to the political party and the political project that is Labour. So yeah, have hope because if we don't have hope, what do we have? James, you feeling hopeful? Surprisingly, yes. I mean, it is. Hope's quite a day. It's the hope that kills you, as they say, right? So first one, always be a bit wary about hope and broadly speaking, the state of the world, the fact of climate change, the fact of environmental breakdown means that all of our lives are going to get progressively worse and worse from now on, but that's actually what we're looking at. There isn't some point in saying that, OK, things are going to get better. Get to the hope, James. But this, I think it's the hope because I think that the bit that gives us some potential here is that if we understand that, and if we understand that what we're doing is where the people who can say, this is how we deal with the situation, this is how we make something out of it, this is how we have each other and we can build something here, that we're not here to draw a grand scheme for utopia, but we're here to say this is what a lifeboat looks like and this is how we make one. That's what hope is, right, in that situation. And join a union. Mind that this 19-year-old has just said that leaving you with 27 is the ground's worth of debt. I am. Well, I'm presuming, you know, I'm going to address this question on a political level rather than a sort of a broader existential level. Obviously, always have hope, you know, cling to hope, cling to those around you. But if you're talking about a political on a political level, no. You haven't got, no, there's no at the moment, there's no because there's nothing that the Labour Party just doesn't. I mean, you know, just to repeat myself. You know, we're looking through this, we're having this discussion through the prism of the last general election, right? But there was a general election before that, the Labour Party lost. There was a general election before that, the Labour Party lost. There was a general election before that, the Labour Party lost. Colour general elections, the Labour Party won and then they lost all them, you know, a very large amount of the other ones. You're going to lose the next election unless you pull your socks up. You're going to lose election after that. So no, you haven't got any hope at all. Sorry. Before we move on to our next question, which is white T-shirt on the sofa for whoever's got the mic. I'm going to abuse my position as chair and say politics isn't fundamentally about parties. It's about the distribution of class forces. And that's why the left is at a disadvantage because we don't have the money. We don't have the resources and capital is working against us. But the left does not have a history which is defined by defeat. The left has a history of victory in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. So it's not going to be fun. It's going to be a graft. You might have to sacrifice your mental health and physical well-being for it. But fucking hell, we will win at some point. White T-shirt. Yeah, I mean, I personally want to say thanks to Dan for coming and it's kind of proof that we don't bite for both people on the right. And he's not made it safely out the room yet. No, no, but this is going to hide behind you. For people on the right and people who run with their steer karma. But anyway, what does the panel think it says about the national psyche and the way that in Britain we view politics generally and its potential? But the Tories have quite effectively, I think, shed the nasty party label mostly through financial bungs like eat out to help out despite their pursuit and ongoing pursuit of like massive kind of emotional cruelty in many aspects of policy, for example, towards migrants and people on universal credit. And as we saw with free school meals, I mean, that was quite a strong national embarrassment, but they swung through. I mean, that's a great question. How did the Tories lose the mantle of being the nasty party? I don't think they have. I personally, I mean, like they're now pushing through the universal credit cart to the uplift, which 20 pounds and calling that an uplift as well. That's a masterclass in branding. Like I don't think they have shed it. I think it's really it's so expected of them and then the nasty party that anything they do feel that feels slightly benevolent, like the furlough scheme is just seen as like, oh, yay, we've got a tiny bit back. I think the nasty party will always be with them and they've just lent into it to the degree that is actually useful. They've turned it once again into something that works for them. And so when they give us a little bit or throw us some crumbs, we're not ours, but like a lot of the population is like, oh, you know what they're doing the best they can. Oh, look, they've changed a little bit when they haven't. And then they immediately go back to winter of discontent and they've got massive shortages across the country and tax hikes. But I mean, wasn't the nasty party a reflection of a certain set of views that you just associate with a conservative party on like hanging and like yeah, I guess maybe of gay people. Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong. Maybe my just my definition of nasty is just like horrible force. And maybe that's it. Maybe maybe it has just faded away in that sense. Maybe James is better pressed to answer this. I was born in 1995. Right. Get out, keep walking and go to jail. All right. How did the toys get rid of the nasty party label? Damlan James. Are we going in age order? Is that how we're now going to proceed? I would never presume the age of anyone on this panel. And that's why I'm 19 years old, if anybody asks. Did you just leave uni with 27 K of debt? And you know what I did? So did I? Oh, sorry, are we going? I'm sorry, mate. I thought we were going mute. Age before beauty. Yeah, I think a number of things. I think the financial crisis made people more attuned to the politics of austerity. I think that was I think that was part of it. I think the Brexit referendum and the pressures that led to the Brexit referendum and this thing we always forget. Brexit referendum was actually a product of something. I think the growing concerns about sort of mainstream concerns about immigration, which weren't addressed by the by the mainstream parties. I think that probably fed into it as well and sort of made it more politically acceptable to have what were perceived before that as being sort of extreme views. And I think, you know, you don't like me saying this, but I'm going to say it. Certainly over the last couple of years, Jeremy Corbyn and anti-Semitism, you know, the perception that the Labour Party was a racist party, the Labour Party was a toxic party, the Labour Party was a party where its own MPs had to leave. You've still got a bit of it today. You've got the Rosie Duffield stuff. The toxicity. That's fine. That's fine. But I was asked the question. I was asked the question. I was asked the question. I'll answer it. That that shifted that shifted the dial. You know, that shifted the dial in terms of perception of what the Labour Party was in relation to what the Tory party was in my view. James. Blaming. Well, look, perceptions are shaped. There's no doubt that we did all sorts of things wrong during the time that Jeremy Corbyn is there, but perceptions are shaped. And of course, like if you have large parts of a media landscape that are going to shape perceptions in one way or the other, that's how it happens. And I do think that that fed into some of it. But if you're talking about why has the Tory party lost its image as the nasty party, I think it has to a to a significant extent. And I think that's quite if you look at like, you know, polling in this and that sort of thing, it's quite closely associated with the figure of Boris Johnson himself, who is seen as somewhat above the Tory party in a certain sense. He kind of floats above it and he's deliberately used that, I think, over the last year or so. But also the point at which you are, it's the furlough scheme is massive. It's very large amounts of money to a very large number of people. But it also builds in something that the Tory started doing under David Cameron, which is, yes, they did lots and lots of austerity, but they deliberately protected certain bits of the population. So the triple lock on pensions, which we should keep, by the way, the triple lock on pensions protected people in receded state pension quite dramatically, actually. I mean, Britson still has pretty crap state pensions, but they've moved from being diabolical to somewhat better and relative to everybody else. They've actually done significantly better because of the triple lock over the last few years. That's protection of a certain section of the population. And the logic of what Johnson's doing to a significant extent is just to extend that principle. So now you have a chunk of people on conventional employment contracts being protected through furlough. Now, if you're self-employed in various different ways, you're done for, three million people haven't been receiving this, but that's OK, whatever. These people are protected. And then, you know, if you're sitting in the middle of that protection, you are what was Johnson's phrase like, he's going to have the arms of the state wrapped around you if you're a worker. I mean, this is extraordinary language from a conservative politician in the last like 40 years or so, but he did it. And if you're doing that and it's back to a cash and there's a terrible frightening pandemic going on, but you're getting money, you can sit safe at home. Of course, you can start to think the government look after me, the government care for me. And at that point, the Tory party doesn't look like the nasty party anymore for a very large number of people. Well, that's what Dan was saying, wasn't it? He can play both sides of the populist field. Well, we've got a question from Vicky Clee on YouTube saying, is the universal credit cut going to impact on Tory polling? Any predictions? I think James should, yeah. I don't think they're going to do it. And they're not going to do it in the form as presented. They're going to come up because they did before George Osborne. Remember, he was wanting to do all sorts of cuts to universal credit. He had a huge 15 billion cut lined up. There are other parts of the sort of benefits and welfare state that were lined up to be chopped and over 2016 they won back from it. They've done it before, they'll do it again. They have every incentive to do it. There's no real compelling reason for them not to do it. The office of budget responsibility is likely to come in with a much rosier forecast for future economic growth over the next few years and out of the start of the year, so they'll magic up a load more money. I don't I just don't see them doing it. Why would you do something that's so obviously going to annoy a load of people that you are trying to appeal to at this point in time? They'll they'll fudge it, they'll compromise it. They'll imply that inside or outside of logic. They'll try and say deserving poor, undeserving poor in some form, but they won't go through with a straight up UC cut. What do you reckon, Dan, you turn on the horizon? You will not on the on the horizon or over the horizon. I mean, I kind of agree. I mean, I think they'll I think they'll actually do it. I think they'll do that. They'll do the cut. I think they'll then try and, you know, they'll, as you said, they'll then you want it. I mean, there's some to it that they'll do the cut and then upgrade the whole upgrade the whole thing. They may do it that way. But again, you know, back to both sides of the pitch flexibility. They'll do it. They'll see how it plays. They take a big hit in the polls. They think it'll take a, you know, serious damage in the polls. Boris will come out shrug, say, you know, so very silly. It's not what I wanted to do and completely reverse it and on. They'll go in their merry way because again, they are not encumbered by ideology. We have got a question from Greg McGregor on YouTube Super Chat with a fiver, no less. And all is a rhetorical question as well. Why will Pretty Patel be the next Tory leader? Hint is because even in economic collapse, she can do her racist shtick. I think this is an interesting question when we talk about future Tory leaders. We never seem to hear about Pretty Patel, whereas she does seem to have a sense of where the Tory base are on issues of nationality, identity and belonging. So why isn't she considered more of a front runner? I don't think she's flexible enough, as Dan said. And I don't think she's canny enough. And I mean, like, that's just my I don't think she has the sort of like primal instinct that Boris does. And she looks too happy about everything all the time. Oh, you look happy too, a sceptis fancy, do you know what I mean? Sceptis means like I just I don't know. I just mean Dan will be as more of an insight on this one, to be honest. Um, no, I mean, I think I think your analysis was was very good. I mean, I think Pretty is someone who's positioned herself in a particular place because she think that's that's the best way it would have arms. You know, I mean, you know, she's still home secretary. A lot of people had it. Well, you know, we're predicting she'd be she'd be out of the job, the fact she's not out of the job is because of the perceived popularity, perceived popularity within the Conservative Party and the broader public. I don't think she's sort of that high on the leadership stakes at the moment, but I think that's a reflection of, you know, the successive, the broad successive Liz and Rishi as much as a reflection on. Before we thank you for coming, but thank the panellists, I would like to let you know that we have another one of these special panels tomorrow in a viral media presents is Labour Dead hosted by my gorgeous colleague, Michael Walker, and we have a very special guest on the panel, Carrie Murphy, who has been at the centre of the Corbyn Machine, and I'm sure we'll have an awful lot of spill around this stage thusly. So that will be at 7 p.m. at right here, the latest TV bar. But if you're watching from home, all you have to do is just hang around in the stream and you'll be able to see what you're going to see in the future. So that's going to be the next thing on your YouTube. You don't have to go back to, you know, Ariana Grande videos. Spare yourself that you will have good quality content. I don't like her. That now that is the worst thing we've heard tonight. I don't like. I don't like Ariana Grande. I find her work derivative. It's homage. I don't like Ariana Grande. homage. Anyway, we've had a panel. It's been great. Thank you for coming. But please can you give a very warm round of applause to Dan Hodges, to Moira Lothian McLean and James Medway. Thank you all so much for coming. Good night.