 Hello and welcome to the afternoon session of the House Education Committee of the Vermont House of Representatives on January 15. And we are delighted to hear today from Mary London, who's president and chair of the Vermont Council of special education administrators. Tracy, for those who were here last year, we tired. So I thought, Mary, I would just let us all introduce ourselves. So you'll know who we are as well. Kate Webb from Shelburne. I'm a retired special educator and chair of the committee. I'm just going to go around. Representative Coopley. Representative Larry Coopley from Rotland City, Vice Chair. Representative Conlon is our ranking member. Hi, I'm Peter Conlon from Cornwall just outside Middlebury. I'm the ranking member and I've had my camera off. You'll just excuse me. I'm eating some lunch and you don't want to watch that. Representative James. Yeah, I'm Kathleen James from Manchester and my district is Bennington for which is Arlington, Manchester. And representative to Representative Toof. I represent Franklin three one, which is said all with city. And representative Hooper. Hi, Mary. I'm Jay Hooper. I represent the five towns of Brookfield, Braintree, Randolph, Granville and Roxbury. And then we have four new members that are joining us this year. So we have not actually met in person. We've only met on screen so here representative Brown. Oh, good afternoon. I'm representative Jana Brown representing the town of Richmond. Representative Harrison representative Harrison on Weathersfield Cavendish and representative Williams. Hi, I'm Terry Williams. I live in Granby. I represent Caledonia, which includes Concord, Victory, Granby, Guild Hall, Maidstone, Lunabird, Brunswick and Kirby. Someday I will remember those without looking for you. I'm representative Erin Brady. She is a teacher. She is finishing up this semester and then she'll be joining us full time so she, she signs in when she can otherwise watches our work on YouTube. So welcome Mary Lundin. Can you introduce yourself and give us your testimony. Good afternoon everyone and thank you so much for inviting me today. I'm happy to be here representing the Vermont Council of Special Education administrators. I am the president of that organization. I am also the director of special services for the Mount Mansfield Unified Union School District which serves Richmond, Jericho, Underhill, Bolton and Huntington. This began that job July 1st in the middle of a pandemic. So, I am in my 18th year serving as an administrator in the state of Vermont. I have been a superintendent, but most of my administrative career has been as a special ed director. And I met with this committee last year when I was in the Montpelio Roxbury School District. So I remember some of your faces and it's nice to see you all again. And thank you for your service. So I sent a document last night and what that document was, was identifying the priorities that BCSEA has this year for the legislative session. And so our focus really is on the COVID-19 impact on students with disabilities. And is on MTSS implementation to support Act 173. The third is to maximize interagency collaboration to improve access to mental health supports for children and families. And then the fourth is on diversity, equity and inclusion. And as Chair Webb said in her opening remarks, Tracy Sawyers was the executive director for the Vermont Council special ed education administrators. She did leave our organization for another position. So for the remainder of the school year, it will be me and Megan Roy, who is the chair of the 173 advisory board, who are available to support you in any of the work where you're looking for testimony. So we are happy to do that. And if we aren't available, we will find another BCSEA board member to participate. So I'm going to just try to go through quickly the four areas that I identified. And then if you have any questions or anything that you're thinking about, I'm happy to answer questions. So as we all know, the COVID-19 has had huge implications for everything for our economy, certainly for education. It's unprecedented and we had to turn on a dime quickly last March to figure out how we were going to educate students. It's challenging enough thinking about that for general education. But when you think about children with disabilities, there was nothing in the federal law to guide our work. And so we really were flying the plane while we were building it. And we did the very best that we could to ensure that children received a free appropriate public education. So what we are focused on now is looking at how will we be able to determine the loss of skills now that we are back, and we have some data to look at what's happening. Spring for most of our schools is going to be looking at how much of a regression occurred, and how do we support students to make up for some of the learning loss. I want to say it's not just specific to students with disabilities, all kids lost learning, and that is clear, very, very clear, as we came back in the fall. Students were lost, kids feeling safe. So there was more than just academic loss. And I think it's important for people to realize that. So the other piece that has come out of the pandemic is the issue of truancy. And that has been challenging because for families that have chosen to participate remotely. It's hard to know is it that they don't have the Wi-Fi, or they don't have the technology, or is it that they are disengaged with all of the other factors that may be impacting their families. So that is a concern for all of us. And we believe we're really going to have to maybe revisit the definition of truancy. The other thing that we are noticing is that the numbers in special education are increasing. And what's happening is during the pandemic there were families that had private evaluations done outside of the school district. And sometimes when that happens, the independent evaluator is not applying the special ed rules and regs the same way the school district would. And a big part of that is the rules and regs require us to look at was good first instruction provided. And so when you think about the pandemic, it really wasn't. And so that is just something that we are all noticing, because children did not get the same level of instruction that they would have if we had been in school. So we are seeing a tick, an uptick in numbers. And then the other piece that is pretty significant is the number of children who are also presenting with anxiety and depression. So that means that we need to do some more partnering with our mental health agencies around this. So that was the first priority for us. The next one was around MTSS. And the implementation of MTSS to support Act 173. So it's also clear in the state of Vermont that schools are at different places when you think about developing an MTSS framework and also implementing it. Some schools are almost there and other schools have not begun the work. And so when we think about Act 173 being successful, it's critical that every school in Vermont have a robust MTSS system, which means this work really needs to start to move ahead through general education. And that hasn't happened. It's been more special education trying to move the work forward. And so for those of you who are new, the whole idea of MTSS is that multi tiered system of support. Multi tiered system of support is that you are going to provide good first instruction by a classroom teacher to every single child in your classroom. So it's a mind shift and people have to think about children with disabilities are general education students first. And that is a guiding principle in the federal Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. So this is different when we think about teachers and it's not that teachers don't want to do it. It's that undergrad programs don't prepare general educators to know how to teach children with learning challenges. So what VCSEA is really advocating for is that the agency provide money and training for all teachers to understand how to work with children with disabilities. So, I think this is going to be a big conversation this year and we would very much like to be part of it. And then we will be looking at the DMG report next week. If we can get Nate Levinson in, we will be, we'll be pulling that up. Okay, great. The third one was what I hit on when I was talking about the pandemic. So we really want to maximize interagency collaboration with our mental heart, excuse me, our mental health partners to really look at how can we build capacity within our schools. So that is important work, especially as we have noticed pre-pandemic that the numbers of children with emotional disabilities was increasing. Now that we are in a pandemic and when we come out of it, we expect that those numbers are going to continue to grow significantly. So, that is definitely a big focus for us. And then the fourth one was the diversity, equity and inclusion work. And that is a focus for all of our state organizations, the superintendent's association, the principal's association, school boards, business managers, and curriculum directors, along with the Vermont Council of Special Ed administrators. So we are providing trainings in our schools around implicit bias and systemic racism and thinking about curriculum. But it also means thinking about some of our marginalized groups. So it's more than race. And so we, BCSEA are making sure that some of those other groups are also able to focus as we dig into this work. So those were the four priorities we had. The other thing that I just wanted to mention today was the waiting study. And I know that that's also a big agenda item that you have this legislative session. And BCSEA would very much like to be involved in those conversations, because we want to make sure that students are counted accurately and appropriately. And we also have some concerns around the formula and how the formula was created and wonderings about was the federal money that schools receive part of that formula. Because some school districts are definitely going to feel the impact when we switch over to the census based model. So the school districts that don't have high numbers of children in poverty. And my district is one of those districts. The taxes in this district will increase significantly. So it's an important conversation as we move forward with this work. And I'm happy to answer any questions that you have. And if I don't have the answer, I will get it and send it back to chair web. Thank you. I realized that I neglected to introduce a couple of people that are in this room. One is representative. I'm sorry to Austin, who was here last year. So Serita. Hi, thank you. I'm Serita also a former educator and school board member. And I'm from Colchester nine dash two and I just put in the chat that I would really appreciate your contact information just so I could speak to you about bill on drafting, not drafting, kind of revising a little bit. I put it in the chat or should I just put it in the chat. Okay, that'd be great. Thank you. And representative Aaron Brady just joined us. Hi, I'm Representative Brady representing Williston and I am an active school teacher in fact was just buzzing home in at the end of my day before this hearing so appreciate your time and share many of your priorities and passions. And, and Jesse Tracy who's joining us this year, who's helping to pull our schedules together. I'm going to be committee assistant for house education this year. I'm looking for, let me just get to questions that are here. I have one question myself in reference to the increase in numbers of children that you believe are being considered eligible for special education. Does this have to do with our question of adverse effect, which adverse effect is the thing that basically looks to see if there's a discrepancy, and discrepancy can be because of a disability, but it could also be because of lack of instruction. And that's not one of the things that could be in play here that it's going to be easier to show that you're, you have a discrepancy because you haven't had, if no one's taught you to read. Yes, so, so that is a big piece of it. So for example, if a child has qualified under the category of a specific learning disability, let's say in reading. That's some standardized test that's how the outside evaluator would determine that that report then comes to the school district to consider. And the school district then we'll look at adverse effect which is gate to where you're gathering all the data and determining whether or not there's need. So it's been tricky, because, again, there's no guidance coming from the federal government around how to apply IDA during the pandemic. And it's also hard for teachers who have never had to to figure this stuff out. And so I think what has happened is people have looked at maybe where kids were in March. Maybe where they were coming back in September and just try to use those few pieces. But when you really think about it. That's not enough information to really determine or tease out. Was it lack of instruction, or is it truly a disability and families. They're thinking, no, it's truly a disability. And so it's very, very tricky. But I think when I think about adverse effect, and when VCSEA thinks about adverse effect. For those of us who have been around for a while, we remember the days before we had the clear criteria that exist in the rules now. And it felt like the Wild West for kids qualifying for special education. And then Vermont created this criteria, which basically provided schools with guiding questions and a way to collect data and analyze it and determine need. Determine is the disability impacting. And if it's applied correctly, it works. And I think it's more what's happening is it's not being implemented correctly in some places and and therefore people feel that kids are falling through the cracks. So it's really, it's a, it remains a training issue. Thank you. Other questions. Representative Conlon and then representative Austin. Thank you very much for your testimony. One of the things that my ears perked up at is the issue of students with emotional disabilities or emotional disturbance and the expectation that when school returns in September that those numbers are going to go up. And that was a category that was identified in the study that led to 173 as potentially being over identified already in Vermont because of our high numbers. So I'm trying to figure out what my question is, but I guess it, my comment would be it seems we're going to be going in the wrong in there. I'm not surprisingly given the pandemic. I would like your thoughts about that a little bit and maybe also a bit about your colleagues across the country or in other states and sort of how they're gearing up to address that as well. Sure. Thanks. So, I think one of the things that that is really, really important for us to be thinking about when when children are presenting with anxiety and depression. It's because of everything that's going on and some of the things that need to happen are to focus on some of the executive function skills, teaching kids that but also really having more universal ideas, positive behavioral intervention supports like designing those kind of systems which is part of the MTSS. So the multi tiered systems of support is not just specific to the academic areas. The big piece of that is social emotional learning. And it's important that we're addressing both because that's the piece that's missing that that we believe is leading to this over identification in emotional disturbance because kids are not educated. And the, there hasn't been explicit instruction in some of these executive function skills that you need to be a student. So I know the agency is really taking a look at some of the social emotional learning pieces, especially in response to COVID, and that they are developing a plan to help schools think about how do you, how are we going to address some of these things as we finish this school year but then move into next school year. So far as my colleagues across the country and emotional disabilities. I think it really depends on the state, I also think it's, you know, what are those supports that they have those universal supports in schools, and that's really what makes the difference. And that's why it's so important for us to keep going back and talking about their need to be changes in general education. That's what 173 was supposed to be. So we're going to be looking at both parts of that. One was was the DMG which talks about tier one instruction general general addressing the needs of all students through MTSS. So we will be bringing that back in and seeing if there's a way we can tie it into the current challenges we're having with with children being out of school for such a long period of time. Other questions, Serita Austin representative Austin. Thank you. I'm a little concerned about the increase in special ed population in terms of parent, I feel like it might be an issue of equity and access, because parents that can afford, you know, to have an independent report on. There's a very savvy parents out there that, you know, would like to see probably do see their child maybe falling behind in academic skills but may not be due to a disability. But now they're looking for access to spend services because of this independent evaluators reports and some schools might honor that and other schools want and you know I feel like. Parents who can afford an independent evaluation or aren't savvy, you know their children might not have the same access. When I think about special education, I think about it being necessary, because you are missing a critical skill. And I think what happens is a lot of people, because we don't have the robust MTS systems within our schools. People think the only way to get supports is through special education. And so what, and that's why I keep going back to MTS as that's why it is so important for us to shift the focus and say. We need to build this robust MTS as this is general education, and children should not need to be on an IEP to get the supports that they need. So that's the work. And if we had the resources and the supports in general education, people would not be looking to special education for for somebody who might just be a little bit behind. Because sometimes all it takes is working with an interventionist for six months to a year to give you that little bump that you might need. But instead, students are referred to special education, because general educators don't know how to provide the kind of scaffold that kids need. And, and again, we're kind of going back to the whole spirit of 173, but, but it all starts with tier one. Mary, do you have any data on the amount of professional development that different school districts have had in terms of MTSS. Without that data, I know what I've done. When I was in Montpelier Roxbury, we did a lot. So again, I think what's happening is, depending on the school, some haven't started, and others are really far along. But again, it's, it's starting with superintendents and central office administrators really making that a priority and allocating professional development money for that training and I think the training that that I did last year is expensive and so I think for some school districts, that is the obstacle. And that's why one of the things that BCSEA is advocating for is that the agency allocate money to schools so that everybody is on everybody's on a level playing field. And everyone is doing the same sort of professional development that is going to ensure that we have robust MTSS. And on last year that Representative Austin is going to to reintroduce with some COVID related updates. We were actually looking at professional development provided more regionally. It's certainly you have to have leadership to maintain something I mean we all know what it's great everybody goes to a really cool group you workshop and then everybody goes home and those teachers retire and whatever you were doing is gone. So there's looking at sort of a sense of regional leadership that's probably broader than just a supervisor union supervisory district. Or at the agency level. And that would that would require some personnel because they don't have it. And that's really part of the discussion as well is trying to beef up the agency that was really stripped in 2007, before I arrived. Let's see representative Austin is that your hand from before. What did you have your outset. Any other questions your thought Mary we're going to really want to keep you involved in this way next week we are looking at we are hoping to look at DMG will have Megan Roy come in as well and give us an update on the work that you've been doing with the 173 work group. You know that we have the waiting study, trying to look at that maybe as a way of a conversation about equity that's beyond tax equity. But how we're actually making sure that that's students in poverty are receiving the resources that they need. Great. Yes, please reach out to VCS a Megan, as you said Megan Roy will be coming in I'm happy to come back. And we're looking forward to this session. So we have some folks coming in now who are school counselors, and we might actually do something in our committee which is called start early. This will be an unusual thing for us but we're going to give it a try anyway, since we are recorded. So you're welcome to stay you're welcome to stay with us if you'd like Mary. So, let's see. I would like to start Phyllis you've just arrived. Phyllis is Phyllis Curio is the advisory chair of the Vermont school counselors Association, and is brought in some counselors for us. We've been hearing a bit about mental health as I'm sure you're not surprised. So we are very anxious to hear from you. And we, you know, we've started with a massage question of how are the children. The answer supposed to be the children are well, and I'm pretty sure that's might not be what you're reporting today. So, welcome Phyllis, if you could give us a start we'd appreciate it. Thanks so much. Thank you representative web and all of the committee members I really do appreciate your time and your support around the wellness of our students our staff and our communities. We have been asked to testify today in regards to our students, and we, how we did it is we broke it up into five categories through our curriculum that we find imperative for our students to be successful. So we would like to discuss the mental health and mental well being around their academics their social emotional learning, their post secondary planning, and what their needs can be for the future. The, as I'm sure in every situation. We're not all in the same boat, but we are experiencing many different feelings for our staff in our schools and our students in our schools. So I'm going to primarily be speaking about my microcosm of a world in my region. But we did survey over 40 school counselors throughout the whole state. And we would like to generate a document that we can share with you at a future date with how the other schools and students are doing. Thank you. So right now what I can say for me is that my students have an increase of anxiety, depression, disconnect, hopelessness, fear for what tomorrow will bring. I'm very disconnected with how their future should look, because they everything they're used to the college preparedness, the visits of local businesses for careers and career cap phase and things that they're used to our schools doing that has all been put on hold So speaking for myself, I typically have a curriculum grades seven through 12 where I meet with my students to discuss their future and their interests and their assessments around what they would like to do grow as they grow up. We visit, we have field trips to college campuses we have local businesses come into our school and discuss what careers look like for the future, and we really dive deep into how they can be successful in their future. With COVID and their, their lack of being able to reach out and meet with people that feeling of isolation has really increased. And with that, I get a lot of I don't why do I have to bother miss Korea why should I bother preparing. And I even going to be able to go to campus next semester. My parents don't have any money anymore. We don't have, you know, we're worried about food right now I can't worry about a college application. So, I myself and along with my community here at Proctor and the Rutland region, we're really trying hard to bring a lot of virtual connection to our students. And for the most part that has been a great supplement. I have had many admission counselors speak with my students virtually, I've had local businesses speak to our kids about a curve about. We did a whole like career week in November and a gear up week in November and that has gotten the kids more motivated. And I've seen an increase in, in participation with the virtual learning. So that is definitely a positive. We feel very lucky that we have the technology we have. We are one to one school with Chromebooks. We have great Wi Fi. We have some money. So for us here in the Rutland Central surprise or a union we're doing okay that way. But then for the kids who aren't engaging virtually, they're not engaging virtually anywhere. So I don't get to see them I don't get to counsel them. And I try to refer students out from mental health supports with there isn't enough in our community so students are on a six to eight week waiting list. So those kids that aren't engaging. That's only getting worse. And for some of my students, the ones that are engaging their feelings of positivity are growing. So I see it being a positive thing, but the inequity between the kids who are coming to school and the kids who chose remote learning is vast for us. There has been an uptick in suicide assessments for our local area in all the schools that I work within. So, so there is a there's a concern. We, one of my big concerns is the post traumatic stress that they will feel next year. As things are getting a little bit worse for us right now, the, the trauma is increasing and I don't know what next year will look like. It's challenging that we lack where we lack in mental resources, we might be good in another area like technology, but not having it all has has hurt in a lot of areas. So my fear is for the future of our students well being and our staff, our staff is really under the gun under pressure, and they're almost. They need just as much mental health as we all do at the current current moment. And it's not just COVID, it's all the other things going on in the United States as well. Trying to engage with my students about the hate that's out there and the trauma that's out there. That's been a challenge. And it's just, it's like, it's like the perfect storm right now. So hoping with your support, we can, you know, we can get our voices heard a little bit more we can get the resources we need. And I'm not just talking monetary monetary resources, just, you know, switching some things around might in itself help, but we need, we need to have that happen and we'll need our bosses to help that happen. So, thank you. Thank you. It's just go down the list and then I'll open up the room for questions. And thank you very much, Phyllis. Good. Good beginning. Patrick Thomas shot from the Memorial South Supervisory Union. Welcome. Hey, everyone, I'm actually Patty. Yes. Representative Web, I was actually going to go last as part of a summary. So I think there's someone that was going to go right after Phyllis. Thank you though. I think I'm done the list. Okay, great Suzanne welcome. Hi, nice to see you all. Thank you for having us. My name is Suzanne Frankie and I'm the elementary school counselor here at Union Elementary in Montpelier Montpelier Roxbury school district. And I'm going to share with you some information about our social emotional status of our students. And this is some of this is information that was shared by students by school counselors across the state as Phyllis shared. And some of it may be repetitive, but I think it's important to reinforce that, that many counselors across the state have, have shared that their students are experiencing these types of things. So isolation, missing social connections, loneliness, hopelessness, feeling disconnected, feeling conflicted about the future. Many students are disengaged. Many schools have had a decline in attendance, and I would even say in an engagement active engagement with their, their teachers. A lack of trust with it with adults because they're not seeing people in person in a lot of what in a lot of districts. Motivation, food insecurity, housing insecurity, a need to care for younger siblings when, when schools are virtual so parents can work, increase suicidal ideation, inadequate access to mental health providers. Both in, in having enough mental health providers and also where they might be located and having access depending on where a student lives. Disabilities due to quarantining disparity between socio economic groups and resources for technology and access and support inconsistency and routines and schedule due to closures remote versus in person learning depending on the district and decreased or no contact. As we mentioned, they trusted adults and then challenges with anxiety, depression, attendance, self harming behaviors and work completion. So in our district in Montpelier Roxbury, we conducted a screener called the SSRS the student risk screening student screening risk survey. We conducted that in November and found that 25% of our students were found to be at high or moderate risk for externalizing behaviors. And our Roxbury elementary Roxbury Village School found that they had 77% of their students at high or moderate risk for externalizing behaviors, which could be things such as defiance in attention or lashing out at others. And then we had 43% at our school and 46% at Roxbury of our students that were demonstrating internalizing behaviors, which are things like depression, anxiety, social isolation, loneliness, difficulty concentrating and negative self talk. And we conducted the same screener in the spring when we were remote, and both areas of internalizing and externalizing behaviors increased greatly since the pandemic began. The student risk screening scale is an evidence based screening tool used by schools across the country to identify students who are demonstrating signs of internalizing and externalizing behavior patterns. It's not a tool that's used to diagnose or assess students, but it allows us to identify students who may need support so that they don't fall through the cracks and also to help staff understand the scope of a problem. So that we can move away from random acts of intervention, which are usually ineffective and plan positive school wide and group support experiences. Here at Union and Roxbury, and the rest of our district our schools are currently in person. And we here at Union we use a pod model with at least two adults assigned to each classroom. We've also offered families a virtual option and nine students attending our virtual Academy are on intensive support plans focused on motivation, engagement and anxiety. Our in person students are exhibiting few behavior challenges which may be related to less transition contact with a smaller number of peers, consistent adult supervision and instruction in the classroom. Even so internalizing behaviors are having a detrimental effect on our students, our district is utilizing a K 12 social emotional learning, a set of learning standards, we're developing curriculum to address that these standards and providing support through mindfulness practices, activities, yoga, and other supports. We're also providing classroom based and individual support to students through weekly virtual social emotional lessons and tools and resources shared with staff and caregivers. One more positive note. Many students are school counselors across the state reported that many students are happy to be in school, even if it's just a few days a week, thankful to be with peers, even virtually. Many students feel supported. Many are learning about technology, and many are experiencing consistency and when especially when schools have remained in person. Thank you very much. Thank you. And next and what I'm going to do we'll open it up to questions to everybody at the end. Next is Rye Hoffman. Welcome. Hey, thank you very much. So my name is Rye Hoffman, I'm the head of the school counseling department at Spalding High School in very remote. I'd first like to thank the House Education Committee and Representative Webb for inviting school counselors to speak on behalf of the needs of students during this time. It truly is appreciated. So I've been asked to speak about the academic impact these last two semesters have had on our students across the state and have collected data from more than 40 school counselors from different districts to share with this committee. My intention is to speak to the mental health impact current academic protocols and learning expectations are having on school aged children. I asked this committee to please put yourself in the shoes of students when hearing the challenges students are facing currently during this time. Many students are behind in their learning are feeling as though they need to teach themselves and are simply performing tasks and truly not learning content and standards. They're struggling with teachers and learning in a collective group and that's less engagement with content. There are many, many students who are struggling with executive functioning skills, such as organization, and these struggles are exacerbated by remote and independent learning. Students commonly speak to feeling distracted, confused with remote learning and frustrated with a general lack of progress and enjoyment, which sadly results in a number of students giving up and not remaining engaged. For specific statistics, I would like to share some data from my school, Spalding High School, to this effect. At Spalding High School, we have two weeks left to our current semester. And most of our courses are semester long classes. In comparing this year to last year at this time, nearly three times as many classes will be failed this semester by our students. Most of these courses, such as English Math History and Science are core courses, which need to be retaken. The social-emotional and psychological impact of retaking a class is significant and one which can lead to further disengagement from education and potentially increased dropout rates. In fact, the number of students who have chosen to discontinue schooling this year as compared to last year at this time at my school was tripled. At the high school level, some students are working for employers during the day so as to provide for their families, making education even less engaging and more independent. Since last spring, there are more seniors considering not continuing their education beyond high school due to the frustration with online learning and the lack of a true college experience. So in summation, the impact on academics during this time is significant and has been felt from elementary through high schools and are bound to have lasting effects for years to come on education for Vermont students. School counselors and educators at a whole are fearful what that impact will be and how in our current system we will be able to rebound for the sake of our students. We long for normalcy, as do all people, but our hearts are with our students whose academic success and progress is regularly tied to their social and emotional well-being. And given that academic success for many students has been slowed and sometimes halted, the perception is that student psychological need during this time is at an all-time high. I want to thank you again for your time and we'll take questions at the end. Thank you. Right. Appreciate this. And next is, let me just check. Lisa LaPlante, and I hear that you have been telling us some positive things. I am. I get to be the positive one. Lucky me. So good afternoon. Thank you so much for the opportunity to testify this afternoon. I'm grateful to be afforded this opportunity to share some of the positives that school counselors are experiencing. Since last March, the meaning of the word positive has changed for many. Prior to March 2020, the definition of positive was accepted as being good, constructive, and optimistic. Since COVID, the word positive now instills feelings of worry, fear, and hopefully empathy. As I testify, I want to bring your attention to the meaning of the word positive prior to COVID-19. As difficult as the last 10 months have been, there have been many positives, old definition, that have come from this pandemic, and I'm excited to share the feedback that we receive from counselors across the state. I actually got a little creative and created a wordal from the feedback and the words that stood out were students, learning, school, remote, meetings, families, parents, options, time, increased technology, relationships, platforms, supports, skills, discussions, pathways, education, success online, deliver individual hope, emotional, access, and focus. In looking at the feedback, there were some themes that emerged. The first one was the increased flexibility. Some students are finding success in online learning and hope to be able to continue learning this way. There's been more diverse learning pathways with different options for education like in-person, hybrid, fully remote, and we're hopefully can keep some of these options for students going forward. Some schools, there's been recess for older students and extended lunch periods. There are remote and virtual days, and these offer times in the school day for counselors to meet with their students and families for tier one curriculum, which Phyllis was talking about in individual supports. Self-starting teenagers have freedom to work outside the school walls. Districts have created virtual learning academies. Snow days have become remote days. Open campuses for older students have been great, and fully online learning has been positive for some students. The next theme was an increase of technology platforms, an increased skill with technology. So we have students now with one-on-one access to computers and iPads. We have students reading all the time when they're remote, and students are increasing their computer skills exponentially. And in the social and emotional realm, the State of Vermont and the Agency of Education has now really focused on social emotional learning and the mental health of our students. So thank you so much. Students learning how to reach out and communicate in new ways. Students are learning how to self-regulate. The use of circles and discussions around resilience, kindness, hope, adversity, and how to get through difficult situations has increased. Counselors are finding innovative ways to provide lessons for students in social emotional learning and creative solutions to find ways to help students meet their needs. We've had fewer behavioral and discipline reports. The next theme was around students and families. Students express wanting to be at school more often than before and are glad to be in person when they can. Students learning how to advocate for themselves in a new environment. There's more personalized time due to zooming. There's increased contact with family. Students are spending more time outside and families are capitalizing on family outdoor activities. Students getting to spend more quality time with family members or have new responsibilities and are rising to that challenge. Students are exploring hobbies and passions they would not have well in school because they have more time and energy and they're actually bored. The ability to build closer one-on-one relationships with students and students are getting more one-on-one support. The expansion of mail delivery programs and free breakfast and lunch for all students. This has been cooperative with COVID requirements and we've all mastered wearing masks. The next piece is virtual meetings. Individual educational plan meetings and other meetings are sometimes easier to organize virtually. Meetings with parents virtually are more streamlined. We've saved travel reimbursements. There's more time in the day to actually get other things done for not having to travel. And this helps with childcare and also telehealth mental health options are a plus. Overall, COVID has forced us to think about how we deliver services to students and families. Washington Central Unified Union, which is where I work, we are very lucky in the system that we designed because our students pre-K through eight are in school every single day. At the high school, our students are in school one week and then remote the next based on pods. We plotted all of our students and we intentionally plotted all of our teachers so that they can reduce cross-contamination. We feel very blessed as we have much more in-person time with our students than some other schools. Thank you again for this opportunity to testify. Thank you very much. So next, and this is the, you're doing the cleanup, I believe. I think I am. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks so much. Thank you for allowing us to join this afternoon. It's also really comforting for me to see some of the faces of some of the reps that I've, I've, I've known and worked with. So it's a pleasure to see some of your faces again. In this final part of the testimony or feedback, as I would like to call it, focuses on the direct challenges school counselors are experiencing. And we'll end with how you, the legislature, can help and support our work. We heard from Vermont counselors across the state regarding these challenges, and we'd like to highlight the similar themes that we have gathered. We do not, do not want to ignore the other equally important comments. We know that we're not able to read all of them to you during this period. Here are their words. As school counselors, we are worried. We are worried about the kids we can't reach. We're worried about the kids we do reach. We are worried about the kids who are not attending school at all, and whose families have shut off all means of communication from the schools. They're working increasingly long hours, adapting as best as possible, like while coping with our own individual versions of the pandemic. It is hard not to see facial expressions during remote learning. Some students do want, do not want to meet because their families cannot provide privacy. There's a disruption in routines, non confidential settings. There's a lack of access to students because they cannot or will not engage as consistently online or have trouble accessing online meetings. Attendance issues have increased, and there's COVID fatigue amongst students and teachers. Connecting with students and families virtually has been very difficult for many families who are struggling financially or health wise. It is harder to connect with students and to help them with their transition from eighth to ninth and from 12th to college. We are watching our staff struggle and try and make it through the day while challenging students to learn and to stay on track. Counselors are watching the mental health resources become less and less, and counselors are struggling to put programming together to support students when they are in survival mode. There's an increase of 504 requests, loss of ability to offer in-person groups and seminars. Having to spend more time with students with higher needs is causing less time with other students. There's spatial challenges. Student truancy has tripled. Staff needed, staff needs significant support with their own social and emotional well-being. Parents are not allowed to meet in person. The mask and social distancing inhibits a deeper level of communication. Trying to establish a connection virtually is challenging. Financial insecurities as a whole within the community. Budget and position cuts in a time of crisis that directly will impact support for our students. There's unrealistic expectations in ability to deliver same pre-COVID services to students and parents. Limited external resources. Many outside therapists are not taking new clients due to the capacity limits. Concerned students are facing in terms of abuse and are neglect at home with less access to supports. It's hard to believe, but we have schools in Vermont that don't have school counselors. And yet on the flip side, we have school counselors that have very high caseloads. And it's not even just about the caseload level, but about allocated resources in what roles and responsibilities that are assigned to school counselors. Schools that have better funding have more counselors and do not have to oversee other non-school counseling tasks. So the next question we asked was how can the legislature help? Again, this is their words. We would like our role to be understood by the Vermont Agency of Education, the Vermont Principal Association, the Vermont Superintendent Association, so that everyone sees us as mental health providers, our training and our expertise. We would like support from the state regarding a vaccine rollout so that we can increase our direct face-to-face support for our students and families. We would like a consistent approach for school counselors to receive the vaccination. Some school districts this week have already approved their school counselors to receive the vaccination, while other school counselors who've learned about it have reached out to their schools were denied. We would like funding for broadband access and cell service for all Vermont students. This will provide the flexibility to continue their learning. We would like funding for all schools to be able to offer summer school credit recovery programs. We would like to support our teachers to have vaccine priority so that we can all work together safely and open up our school for in-person five days per week of instruction. We thank you for your time and allowing us to share our feedback, our hopes and dreams for our Vermont students and families. Our priority is that every Vermont school will employ professional school counselors who are available to assist all students in successfully navigating their academic experiences, assisting them in making informed decisions concerning their career paths, and understanding and managing their social and emotional development. All of us here right now together, we can all make a positive impact during this difficult time in our country. Thank you for your time. Thank you. I'm going to open it up to questions from the committee members and I see representative Hooper. Thank you all for your testimony. It's, it's heavy stuff. I wanted to ask Patricia about, excuse me, to fill us about something she said. She said, we need to switch some things around. I just kind of was wondering if you might expand on some of that rearrangement that you hoped for. Well, I think some of what Patricia was alluding to, sometimes we're tasked with duties that aren't necessarily school counselor related. It needs on our ability to actually get the work done in the mental health arena for our students and our communities. So I'll give you an example. This year, I have to, I have 150 minutes with a class. So that only then leaves me 80 minutes after my contracted day of actual counseling time. And that's because the duties, there's been so many additional duties added to our plate. And it's always been like that, like with when PLPs came around and proficiencies came around it was always kind of given to the school counselor because most of us have in our contract other duties as warranted. So that take that programming, although well meaning and fantastic for our students can take away from our ability to counsel our students. Right. When I think we need some we need central to like our central our superintendent our principles to say no that's not a duty for Phyllis Phyllis needs to focus on the well being of our students. She shouldn't necessarily be the AP coordinator or the PSAT coordinator or, you know, just programming that takes away from directed indirect services for our students. So basically being asked to, to not do your job to do a different job. Okay, I understand. And just, Madam Chair may I ask Patricia something. So, how we the Education Committee on the House side can help the legislature help you with the summer school credit recovery aspect of things that sounds very interesting and essential to me. I'll certainly have another one of counselors speak up right Hoffman but I are under what we're trying to get is funding for that. What we do know is that we have plenty of students that are that even after this first semester, that need recovery, they haven't completed their courses and they need extra help. We're anticipating that that's not going to change. It's going to filter into the second semester, and then we'll filter toward the end of the school year, and they're going to be ready. We want to make sure that they have a good strong start at this at the start of the next school year. We do know that there is school districts districts are going to have available over $100 million of federal funds. We are going to be looking at that next week. I think that will be of interest to see how some of these funds can be used to address the issues that you are talking about and the other numbers of the Education Committee have been referring to representative James and then representative, then representative Brady. Thanks chair web and thanks to all of you for being here. I think, right. You were talking a little bit about what you're seeing as a decline in college interest. And I wondered if you could elaborate on that a little bit do you think students are thinking of deferring a year in the hopes that a normal college experience will be available to them down the road or do you think students are losing interest in attending period. Just wave at me and I'll call on you. Take that one. So, right. Yes, right often. And thank you represent representative James from my perspective and the students that we have here at Spalding High School we had a number of students last year that deferred. Because they were, you know, they were aware that their experience was going to be a virtual experience and, you know, for the cost of education at the secondary level they didn't feel like it was quote unquote worth it. We've had some students that went for a semester, and they've come back and they're choosing not to return. And they talked to our current students and and what their experience has been. Now our current seniors are are considering different options, going into the course. You know, again get back to normal until such time as they can have a true college experience. Our hope is that they will actually do that. And, but we also know that, you know, continuing with education, right from the end of senior year right into a college program tends to be a bit more successful and sustainable than, than sometimes taking a, you know, a gap year, or taking a year off or two. So, thank you. Representative Brady, and then representative common. Yeah, thanks so much for everybody being here today and sharing things that I think we're all experiencing in the schools and just start overwhelming concern for kids and particularly for kids who are struggle in normal times and so this is only exacerbating everything. No question for the witnesses here today but more a note for us as the committee I think when we work with the AOE, we're here from them in terms of like the state recovery and reengagement plan. I'm thinking more about this students who don't pass courses and credits and on the one hand I don't want to necessarily volunteer that the state should be dictating how schools should be teaching courses or what but I'm, I'm huge red flags coming up for me here about an equity issue of, if, if it's done very locally, you know who what kids really have to make up what credits to advance to what grade to graduate. You know, I think that's messy in any normal time. But this is just so exacerbated and families and parents that have, you know, access to maybe advocate versus students who don't. The last thing we want is fewer kids graduating because they lived through this and I as almost I'm here feeling like we need some sort of statewide amnesty or something or we're setting up struggling kids for real disaster. So more of a comment and thoughts for us as a committee as we talk with AOE and that plan. Thank you. And that's a good point. And then, and then Williams. Thanks. Same exact topic. And I guess I'll direct my question to ride because you brought it out. And I'd like your thoughts on, you know, how should the state or schools handle probably that as you said you have a tripling in the number of kids who are failing classes. We heard yesterday from a lot of educators who said, what we got to be careful not to do is to punish the kids. And so how, how would you suggest we sort of balance a flunked a flunked class, not, not punishing kids and recognizing this crazy time we're in. Yeah, it's a really, it's a great question representative, representative Conlon and one that's really difficult to, to answer quite honestly, I mean, different districts are handling the educational protocols differently. I would say, so I can speak to our experience at, at Spalding High School where we have a significantly high number of students that are most likely not going to be successful in their first semester classes. And where, where that that summer programming could be of help and, and quite honestly it's it's a bit of a band aid, but it's a better band aid than what we currently have at our disposal. You know, and as it relates to the social emotional needs of our students, if students aren't feeling successful in their education, and they're, if they're frustrated, they're, you know, more apt to give up, and to stop trying. And we want to be able to provide them hope and an opportunity to, to continue their learning. To move towards proficiencies there's certain standards that need to be met to meet graduation requirements and, and during normal times, sometimes that can be challenging. During these times, it's really challenging for a lot of kids. And as representative Brady spoke to equity is is a huge factor in that, you know, some students that have more than others are at a greater advantage right now than than those who have less. And it's a challenge that keeps us educators up at night, quite honestly. So, any assistance that that this House Education Committee can give to sort of balance those challenges would be greatly appreciated for us and for our students. Thanks. I'm sure it's not a, not an easy topic, but if I didn't know somebody else wanted to jump in, I had one more follow up question if you don't mind. I would like to say something if I could I'd like to see that there's some recovery workers are during the school day. I agree with you there's that fine balance to what we're calling punishing and not in yet if students don't get that basic foundational knowledge. It's very difficult to get to that next level. I'd like to see something that's embedded within the school day with supports that are available for students to have an academic study or study hall, where they can get some of that support. I think it's time for us to start looking outside of the box of the traditional school day that is over by three is or something we can offer at different times of the day I know that creates another, you know, probably another financial burden. However, we need to start thinking differently and looking at school differently. Is there an opportunity during school breaks as opportunity in the summers where students can, you know, really have what we call in the state of Vermont a truly flexible learning opportunity and a pathway. I think the time is right to start thinking about that. And if, and if I could add, I also there's also been a number of articles that have been out in regards to are the students really falling behind. Right. All of this is a social construct that's been put in place long before I was born. And so I think we have to think about our language and how we say things and what the world in the future looks like, and what students actually need to be successful. I unfortunately take it right a different approach in regards to are they for me they're not really behind many of them may actually be ahead because they learn new skills, and they've learned different ways to compensate and have learned different ways to help themselves so maybe they're not active they're behind in the in the prior social construct, maybe we need a new social construct, or no social construct is a different way to go. So, also that, oh, sorry, go ahead. That's fine. I've been doing some research on that as well and I've been reading about the COVID slide, because we have, we went to semesters blocks here. So now we have students who haven't been engaging in math or literacy since last March. And they have seven months of not engaging in that skill. So my fear is, as Lisa was saying that that social construct of now we have to take assessments three times a year we just finished our maps assessment this week. Our kids are going to be scoring low and where does that fit in with our funding and what our design of our day will look like now. So my fear as well as when we have to take the aspects if we do have to take the aspects in the spring I mean it's clear that most of our kids here will probably not be that successful with having that much math and reading. Gone for for the past few months, and I do believe in the COVID slide I think there's a summer slide and I think there is a COVID slide in what we now currently have in our education system. My fear as we keep moving forward, my fear with my ninth graders is that they're not getting a true ninth grade transition this year. They and how will that look for years from now when, and if the college and the universities and their bosses from different local businesses expect a certain level of an SAT score or of a of a state test to get into the court system or whatever it might be. My fear is that they're not getting learning in the way that might be what we're used to. So it is a concern as we move forward it's not just a nine month COVID concern it's going to be from our current K 12 for the next four years, I think. Talking about a generation of learners. Thank you very much across the world. I'm done. Thank you very much again. Okay. Representative Brady did you have another one. Excuse me representative Williams I didn't get to you. Hi. Yes. And reference to the summer schooling. I think it's a great idea, at least. In the immediate thought. I think thinking outside of the box always excites me. I, I hear so many of you saying you're burning out. If we came up with the money do we have the instructors to fill the void that is needed for the summer schools. That would be my concern. We have that we certainly are hearing that there may be an exodus of our, you know, 60 plus crowd that is now saying I think it's time. I can speak to again my, my community and my school. We have years ago offered a summer school program. We have lost that funding over the last couple of years. And so, and it's not. Representative Brady's comments, it is, it's not a fix for everybody. And, and it won't be of it. Not everybody can access that, both by choice, or, or just their own, you know, what they have planned for the summer so it could just. What I would like to see is that all schools have that ability to offer such a program if they can, and that the funds that could do so could allow that to happen at our school we do have the staffing. I have done the research to check and see that we have the staffing to be able to offer it right now we don't have the funds and flexibility is a great word. That was my point so my point wasn't necessarily like let's have him do summer because I've looked at your comments here my point was not so much about that as it was merely suggesting a flexible schedule in some states are looking at what they're calling a flexible year round schedule where maybe for some, they might may want to go to school in summer and have winter off. So it was again, just a way of looking broadly and not just thinking about what do we have, and what's considered punitive, and what that it's to really take the time now to think about what could be a more flexible way of educating our children, and giving them what they need as well. Thank you. Thank you representative Brady. Excuse me representative Brown. Oh sure I just had it thank you chair web. I just had a really quick follow up to our discussion about summer, assuming that staffing and funding, you know did come through for these summer programs what is the I mean what is the planning phase for that I know we're here in January but I feel like setting up summer programs happens many months in advance so is there a critical window that schools are sort of on a deadline for. Again I can, I'll try to speak to that from our perspective we're spalding perspective. Again we're ending our first semester now. I am currently in the midst of rescheduling our second semester classes to try and make sure that students that need to retake classes can do so. We honestly won't have the capacity to do so we don't have the number of teachers, or the amount of space in order to fully pull it off. And so, being able to have an answer to parents and students that we will have a summer program and summer options to continue that work at that time would be a much easier conversation for me to have, then, then to not have that answer. So, although it's an unfair answer to your question. I think the better. And having pulled summer school together very quickly. Right, April, May would is still is still a very doable timeframe. Right. I know many of us this summer we did our entire master schedules in like three weeks. You were to tell us mid May that we had funds, we would very quickly figure out what we would be offering and get those sign ups and get that in place so. We have seen school districts pull together remote learning under ridiculously impossible circumstances. I mean, if anybody could figure this out, it would be some teachers. If you indeed have the support from administration and that will be a discussion we will be having representative Hooper. You have still have a question or you're done. I didn't realize my hand was still. And representative Williams I still see your hand are you still okay. Kate, could I just jump in with a quick question. Sure. And then represent of ours and sure, go ahead. It's a very quick one. It's first Suzanne from Union Elementary, my alma mater. You talked about a survey that you had done in November and I was unclear whether that was November, just this past November or the previous November, because you said that you saw a big increase. Yeah. Yeah. So we, we conducted the screener in the spring in, in May of last year and then again in November of this. Thank you. It's, it's comparing apples to oranges really though, because we were fully remote back then so we'll do it again next April, this coming April. And we'll have that as a better comparison. Thank you. Representative Harrison. Yeah, I'm not sure that today's panelists can answer this but I'm in my own mind I'd like to some kind of handle on where Vermont stands in relation to the rest of the country and where I'm going with that is that common thread we've heard all week is staffing and I don't think it's people in trying to fill the staffing issues. And another issue of course is the Vermont has never been known as the place you want to go to because the pay is so high. So, anyway, I'm just curious on where we stand in compared to the rest of the country because I'm sure our situation isn't unique. I think we can answer in regards to school counselors and school counselor candidates. And I can tell you today I received three emails with applications for interns for next year. Right with the UVM having a school counseling program. We do have a strong pool of applicants for school counselors. There will be many more counselors who graduate than counselor openings. So, if there was funding to increase the school counseling population, I do believe we would have the candidates to fill those. I think your question about in terms of school counselors we can speak to the Vermont ratio Vermont ratios low compared to other states. However, in Vermont. What's what's unique about it is that while numbers may look low for some schools they're assigned a lot of different responsibilities and some of our more wealthier school districts. The numbers may look low in terms that said that caseload but it's very different in terms of the actual additional Mount counseling responsibilities. I just wanted to add that I also teach in the the counseling program at NVU Johnson, the school counselor program there and I've been encouraged by the number of students who are enrolling in that program and graduating and are ready to be school counselors here in Vermont. And I also wanted to say in terms of the ratios. You know Montpelier is a great example of how it's kind of out of whack because in my school in a normal year we would have more than 400 students, and I'm the only school counselor. I'm a social worker full time, but, you know, and what happens in a lot of our districts is is we might have a school counselor but they're only there two days a week, especially at the elementary level. That's what happens and you know, I just want to advocate for our youngest kids because it's really important that we give them the foundation so that they, when they get to Patty and Phyllis and Lisa and Ry they're prepared and ready for their schools and high self esteem. Thank you representative Coopley. Thank you madam chair. I have heard no mention of technical school students are you. How was the counseling going with them. How are they performing. Are they doing any differently than the tradition student. But both personally because my son goes to a tech school, as well as my some of my students, the tech, I think the tech schools are doing the best they could. I definitely think that they, you know they love their hands on students, but my students that shoes as well as my son that they go to the tech schools are doing it because they want the hands on experience and coven has put a damper on that, where you're not getting the same hands on experiences as in years past. I've had a few students drop out of the tech school and come back to the home school, because it wasn't that same experience and our local tech school is red day white day so they're home. They only go to school two days a week or three days a week. And that so that hasn't helped much with with their style of learning. So I don't think it's great I think they're suffering to and they're another group that they use a lot of funding from the Perkins Perkins fund, and they can't use it right now because we can. We can't get to some of the things that we would use our funding for. Thank you. I think I think it's very location specific in central Vermont our career center is open four days a week. And they definitely they were remote for a little while between Thanksgiving and New Year. But when they are when they are able to be in the building they are luckily luckily enough to be in the building like I said four days a week. And when they were remote, they were actually mailing them I was talking to some of my students who are in the Cosmo program and asking her so how is that working remotely. And she said they mailed us are mannequins and all of our nails stuff and right and so we're zooming, but we're actually still doing the hands on stuff it's just from home. So it's not fabulous nor is any of this but they're definitely doing the best that they can do. Thank you. Thank you very much appreciated hearing from you. I greatly appreciate you reaching out to me fellas, particularly given current circumstances in our schools. I think we're hearing you loud and clear the value of keeping schools open. I think we're hearing loud and clear that we have some students that are seriously struggling with mental health issues. I think we're hearing your call for broadband and funding and vaccines. And remembering that we have an underlying condition that's going to be making academic learning a challenge if we don't address some of the underlying mental health and social issues of our children as well as nutritional work to do. Thank you so much for taking the time to hear us and appreciate all that we have to say and all that we do for our students we really appreciate your time. And you know our goal is to make sure that the mental health doesn't get lost in the learning process because as most people know if you're not feeling good you're not learning well. So we really want it you know when we think about summer funding and really hoping that also includes mental health funding for our students. I would gladly work more days over the summer and counsel my students more one on one if you know if the funding is there. So we're willing to do the work will whatever you guys think you could throw at us we were willing to do it and you know we believe that we are working as a team now for our younger generations. Thank you so much for the work you do. I mean, you'd right now, you guys are the heroes in this story. And we will be looking at that what our role will be, we're going to be looking at what 127 million that's going. We now are learning is going directly to schools. It's not going through us. So we're not going to have some of the controls. I certainly want it. We will be seeing what it is that we can do to help direct towards our generation of learners that are growing in the period of COVID. We know they're all learning is just what are they learning. Thank you all so much. And with that, I think that we are done. We are finished. I will be going over the schedule with with Jesse for next week. I expect to be able to have that posted. I don't know what it'll be posted on Monday probably I don't think we can get it posted today. But we'll get it posted on Monday, and we'll let you know what we're doing. My email is available. I work all the time, just like teachers. I work all the time. And I'm more than happy to hear from you as we're going forward. I've got some thoughts. Kate. Go ahead. Just a question. In terms of next week and, you know, wanting to hear about learning laws and learning recovery. Yeah. And then you've talked about the DMG report. Yeah. I get confused as to whether, you know, and maybe they're all blended together, but where DMG falls. In recovery versus 173 or 173 being talked about in terms of recovery as well. And yeah, I just want to get a little more. I'm trying to think if we can just do it, you know, COVID related emergency bill to address some of the issues folks are talking about while we're also looking at 173. And I guess maybe like my question I'm trying to be too categorical. Yeah. So, so like, if we get Nate Levinson in to talk about the DMG report next week. Is that under the under the umbrella of recovery or is that under the umbrella of 173. I think it's both because I think that I think that that report sets out. How you look at MTSS, how you get those services into the tier one that which is general education, tier one, tier two, tier three, tier, tier two is additional support and tier three is special ed. For the most part, I think that's to what it is Aaron correct. I'm wrong. That if we're hearing we're hearing multi tiered systems of support. Some are skilled. We're hearing that some are not. And I think that's why I'm, I'm thinking that having the background of what that the DMG report recommended. And if we can start to get some of that implemented. So Rita will be introducing her bill which will be COVID related and looking at the literacy work that we did last year. I agree with that very much. Yeah, just one more thing. I just want to compliment our new members on their questioning. When you ask a question you guys are focused. You ask a good direct question. And it's been very productive. Yes, I like Aaron. I like Aaron's idea of being able to just give everybody and the state for all the students and the state for next year. I did, I did go to a, I think it was an NCSL thing on assessment. Over the summer. And I was just trying to find my notes on what we do with that. We could all do very well with the newly 18 year old voters if we can just call it amnesty on their credits now you can start. Okay, everybody. So appreciate you. I think we've got a really super committee. I'm excited to get to work here. So I think we've got another week of sort of building and then I think we're going to start talking about working on some bills. And I am going to try to find some time to have some of those bills presented to us, even if it's just, here's the bill. Here's what we're looking for. We'll talk about it later. I may do that just have a day where just come on in the committee and tell us about your bill. But the waiting study bill will be will be connected because it did come out of act 173. All right. Okay.