 Tracy has a question and it's regarding the line in the Lord's Prayer translated generally as forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us or Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors My question is about the quote as I have generally taken it to mean in the same manner as But I have come to realize that it could also mean at the same time as Does the Greek provide any insight into which was intended both certainly would seem to be appropriate Such a little word to mean so much Yeah Yeah, I think generally to jump into this the Lord's Prayer Appears only in Matthew and this Matthew 6 so we're gonna be going with with Matthew 6 verses 12 through 14 For this question in the Greek New Testament the passage reads forgive us our debts as the Greek word is hosts there We forgive our debtors. There is no Greek word hosts later in verses 14 and 15 about the trespasses So it only occurs in the one spot. So since the question revolves around that little conjunction hosts I wanted to point that out that it's only in one part of it So the question suggests the choice between in the same manner That which would be comparative or at the same time, which would be temporal again to use grammar speak the comparative is You could probably argue that the comparative is the predominant semantic for the conjunction hosts however grammars do note temporal semantics for the conjunction in certain passages so the the at the same time idea or Or translation that that's legit. I mean you certainly have that possibility Now if we look this up in B dag, which is the standard, you know lexicon for the Greek New Testament it will note that Hosts can be a temporal conjunction and it will actually say with the heiress It recommends the translation of when or after, you know, in other words, there's there's When something happens, you know that or after something happens You know, then, you know, you have that temporal sort of sense Now in Matthew the verbs are heiress so again, you have a temporal possibility there and you can translate it You know something like let me just go to to Matthew 6 here and go to the actual example forgive us our debts When we have forgiven our debtors or after we have forgiven our debtors I mean if you go with when that that's a little more closely coordinated You know the both sides of the forgiveness after is I mean there after implies a little bit more chronology This happens than that happens and when is like this you get this feeling of Simultaneity or something that approximates Simultaneity, I mean, but there's no way to be any more granular than that So you know back to the question does the Greek provide any insight into which option which of those semantic options was intended About what all you can say is both certainly would seem appropriate You could go with either you know the comparison or the temporal idea But there's no there's no way to really say well This is this is the case here and we can build an argument to exclude the other and I have to be honest I don't really see the need to choose a certainly lesser forgiveness isn't in view as though Jesus words could be construed to mean that one's Forgiveness is not of the same extent or the same quality or the same Genuineness so if you were opting for in the same manner, let's go back to verse 12 forgive us our debts in the same manner That we have forgiven our debtors. Well that that's that's that's implied I mean that's not something that can really be excluded because to argue that it should be excluded We would leave you with this possibility that Jesus is asking you to pray Lord forgive us our debts in Not quite the same way or to a lesser extent than we have forgiven It just doesn't make any sense It's very obvious that without even thinking about the conjunction we we want you know Jesus is suggesting we have a one-to-one correspondence here We God's gonna you know be inclined to forgive us as we have forgiven our debtors You know, and that's how we should be thinking about the situation So, you know that the comparative idea in the same manner idea that seems kind of intuitive Now when the comparison is God's own forgiveness again That's what's being asked for in the prayer Then it makes little sense to turn the question into a father forgive us to a halfway extent So it just it just seems intuitive now adding to that just a little thought Matthew 6 14 if you go two verses later Seems to provide a chronology so to speak by virtue of the conditional Particle so verse 14 says this is ESV for if you forgive others their trespasses your heavenly father all will also forgive you so if there is the Greek word on and It's just what it sounds like a conditional particle and that is typically followed and in this case that this is the case It's followed by a subjunctive verb form now The verbs up in verse 12, you know One is an imperative forgive us our debts and the other one, you know as we have forgiven others That's indicative you know imperative is the mood of command indicative is the mood of reality It just sort of states something that is and down here in verse 14 We have the subjunctive the subjunctive is the is the grammatical mood of unreality That is it describes actions that haven't happened yet like future or that that you know May or may not happen based upon conditions that are set and that's what we have here in verse 14 If you forgive others their trespasses your heavenly father will also forgive you there's there's a contingency there So, you know if that's the case then you actually you obviously have a chronology one thing has to happen before the other And so you don't really have at the same time There you do have a chronology there and you could you could take that chronology That's clearly presumed in verse 14 and then read verse 12 in light of it But you would still have a a temporal use of the conjunction It may not mean at the same time, but there's a time element there So either way again just to retap here It allows us you know the hosts can be a comparative semantic in the same manner It can be temporal either at the same time or some sort of chronological time Both of those are operable here again. I don't see the need to choose I think the only thing that you could eliminate is Simultaneity only because of verse 14 and if you wanted to look at verse 14 You have an obvious condition This has to happen before that does and then you would be reading verse 12 in light of that That temporal situation