 Okay, we're back for live. I'm Jay Fiedel and it's the 12 o'clock block on a given Monday. We're talking about Meena Marco and me on Energy on Mondays and we have the whole array here today. Welcome back to the show Meena Marina. Hi. Hey. Hi. Hi, Marco. Hi, Jay. Nice to be back. Hi, Marco. How are you? Well, greetings from one of the lava capitals of the world here on the beautiful Big Island of Hawaii. Let's turn to that first. Let's turn to what's happening in the Big Island in terms of energy. And I guess the first thing which people may or may not be really focused on is what is happening with Pune Geothermal Venture, PGV, and what are the problems that are emanating from that? Pretty dicey time right now, guys, in that the fissures which have been, they're now over 20, have been pretty much in a straight line along the so-called East Rift Zone downslope of Kilauea. And up until just in the past handful of hours or so, the lava erupting from these fissures had been making a right turn going downslope and eventually over the weekend, they got to the ocean there south of Kapoho, lower Puna, and are now in the water. Lava is actually entering into the water. So just recently in the past 10 or 12 hours, the fissures closest to the perimeter line of Pune Geothermal Venture has been erupting lava and actually going to the Northwest. And the Northwest is in the direction of the facility, of the well heads of the buildings. So there's a team that's been out there for days. I know Tom Travis, a former naval officer and tapped by David E. Gates to be the head of Hawaii Emergency Management Agency. Tom is very much involved and it's really kind of high, high stress right now because they are working actively to try to cap three active well heads prior to the possibility of the well heads being overrun by lava. So I can only imagine the degree of stress and anxiety that people are experiencing there actually working on the scene and add that to the continuing belching of hydrogen sulfide gas, sulfur dioxide gas, and then when the lava is hitting the ocean interacting with salt waters producing hydrochloric acid gas along with glass crystals which can be carried miles and miles and miles south depending on the strength of the prevailing trade winds. So I don't want to sound too alarmist but I mean like so many people here on this island I've been watching the news on a very regular basis and I'm feeling a degree of anxiety myself in terms of gosh you know and all the impact is having on hundreds and hundreds of families and structures destroyed and lives disrupted and you know I think we all know anybody who lives in the big island has had the background of volcanic activity for decades and decades and decades but when there's relative quiescence in terms of not a whole lot of action and then something like this happens where the earth literally opens up for stretch of miles and belches lava like flowing water it's it's it's sobering and it's it causes us as human beings to see just how tiny and infinitesimal we are these would be the the force of these primal forces of nature. Is it getting worse? Well I understand the lava that's been flowing relatively recently is new lava compared to old magma going back decades that is essentially being reheated so to speak and was the first lava to come out of the ground but the new lava the newer lava newer magma is less viscous it's it's runnier in a sense and is traveling over a distance that had a faster clip so you know it's it's just you know PGV went down in terms of power production over two weeks ago that's something more than 30 megawatts and now that's not chump change in terms of the the percentage that PGV used to provide to Helco for their daily firm firm power requirement so Helco is said to go elsewhere to their own units that they usually don't operate in order to make up that shortfall and I don't know if they've been able to get more out of the biggest plant on the island which is Kehole right close to the airport or Hamakua, Hamakua energy which is in Honoka which is the second largest plant I don't know if they've been maxing those out or not I think from what I understand we're relatively okay in terms of generation adequate generation to meet demand but then again we're at a lower we're at a time of the year when demand is less as we get into the winter months the demand increases during peak time so I'm not privy enough at this point to to know just how close of a margin we have right now in terms of generation being able to meet demand what's the demand for the big island it's about 150 megawatts peak right now 150 so 30% is going to be 20% of the entire the entire demand right there correct yeah I mean 30 megawatts actually I think it's more like 38 or something like that so it's actually a higher percentage yet yes so um you know the the the thing that that we mentioned this you mentioned this before the show began and it's really interesting is that um wouldn't the lava have the effect of capping capping the well why do you have to cap it in advance of the lava arriving wouldn't the lava just cover it up well kind of intuitively that makes sense jay but I'm not enough of a I mean I'm ignorant on the subject fundamentally to offer much of a much of a wise opinion but I mean if people like Tom Travis and with the governor's backing and in PGV and and Harry Kim civil defense as they came to the conclusion days ago which they did which the best thing is to to effectively kill these wellheads these three wellheads then that would indicate that they weren't sanguine with the notion that if it would lava were to overflow facility that the lava would simply cap the wellheads and they would have to worry about it yeah but it may not cap it perfectly what do I get out of this that may not cap it perfectly there may be places where the the gas can escape and if that's the geothermal product can escape and then what you have is an inability to cap it and it's still escaping and then you have then you have a problem to the environment and to you know the community around it I mean it confirm with me on that if it escapes if it is not capped if it's flowing out into the atmosphere the geothermal geothermal what is a gas or liquid whatever it is you know that that's a problem isn't it yeah I mean as far as I understand you know the two main problems troublesome components are sulfur dioxide hydrogen sulfide which are both you know they're not poison poison poison to breathe but as the concentration goes up people with respiratory illnesses especially could be very very adversely affected and as people were talking about putting a geothermal back in the mid to late 1980s prior to the plan going online in 1993 so it's been operational for about 25 years they did you know worst-case scenario planning and the worst-case scenario planning assumed the possibility of a runaway well which would cause which would you know effectively be uncapable which would pollute the surrounding area to a radius of a number of miles even perhaps going as far as chaos again I don't want to be alarmist here but as the plans for PGV were being considered by local authorities by the state by the feds I mean this is one of the considerations so again not being an expert on it I do know that you know there's worst case really really nasty stuff that can can happen so you know hopefully got willing that that won't happen yeah well this is this is going to have a bad effect one way or the other on PGV and in a business sense and in the sense of trying to you know resurrect its systems and operate again I didn't sound like they can come back online anytime soon I think they're done they're done Jay I mean think of it this way what insurer at this point would possibly ensure a facility that sits within spitting distance of a live lava fissure yeah sure I mean we and we always knew there was a risk and I and I'm wondering if people are saying and not not only on a cultural level you know we can we can get to that but on the level of G wasn't this always something that could happen we always knew that the you know the downside of geothermal is that it comes from seismic activity and if the seismic activity you know gets out of control then it doesn't work anymore people have been saying that for a long time haven't they has you know you mentioned that people have been you know complacent about it but gee we've always known this was a risk right well I mean look at it this way as well Jay you have housing developments in this lava one zone which is considered to be the most risky in terms of potential lava or volcanic activity you've had building going on there for the past 50 or so years the last eruptions around the east uh rift in terms of substantial eruptions and lava flow making to the sea we're going back to 1955 and 1960 La La Nina states which is one of the most affected areas I believe is that housing development was started in the mid 1960s so year after year goes by decade after decade goes by there's no eruption people build lives they build homes they cultivate the land and all with you know you want to call it complacency and ignorance or something in between it's just that you get used to the habituation of life being normal yes you know in the back of your mind you're living in a volcanically active zone but at the same time like I said year after year decade goes by you're fine you deal with earthquakes and tell something like this happens the earth opens up and spews lava and destroys homes and destroys lives yeah and destroys power sources um you know uh Hawaiian electric or Hawaiian electric light company going to have to um if you say it's done if it's finished then they're going to have to make permanent arrangements to um you know find replacement sources uh those may be fossil fuel sources for now maybe there'll be other renewables coming online that can take the place of this 38 megawatts but sounds to me like they're going to have to move in that direction if they aren't already moving in that direction well they're doing a 20 megawatt rfp request for proposal right now uh but even if they were to get full solicitation and bring on 20 megawatts in a relatively short amount of time assuming the loss of 35 megawatts or so from PGV uh the net effect uh unless and until um Huanua comes online right up in Pepe Kea which will be a biomass plant sometime sometime next year or later this year uh the the end result is that Helco's renewable portfolio percentage will go down yeah and the other thing is that if somebody came around and you know in the next few years I expect whatever happens with the eruption right now um you know um there's going to be a certain amount of resistance and you can say resistance on a practical level on a liability level insurance level but also on a cultural level I'm sure there are people who are saying you know we told you Pele didn't like this this was never good for Hawaii and uh we would oppose any any attempt to reconnect it don't you think they'd say that my living here full time is that uh the prospects of additional geothermal uh being developed on this island are effectively dead even prior to what's happened the past several weeks there you have it okay what what are your comments what are your comments on this Mina so I think there are different kinds of geothermal plants so let's not just write off geothermal in one self-soup and um I yeah I don't know too much about the technology but I mean you have to look at other areas that have successfully integrated geothermal um into their systems um without much um cultural backlash and um the problems that we face right now you know namely New Zealand and Iceland so um so again you know it's it's I think there's still potential but definitely you know location is everything um and and my understanding is there's new uh lower temperature um geothermal technology that you know people are looking at on um the slopes of Haleakala I mean you know these are still again um technologies that we may not be too familiar with um um because PDG has been prominent in discussions but you know I I I don't see a um distinct end for for geothermal in Hawaii um okay I I think the less I think the lesson here is the importance of diversity um and and having um not being fully reliant on one single source for for energy um and you know this is an important point to make I mean you know just look at the amount of rain that we've had on kawaii and you know had it taken out um a hydroelectric plant or what we've seen you know the long duration of rain and heavy um overcast and in fact it had on solar output and the um um um charging ability of of of batteries for for storage right so again and then and you know and we face challenges with wind you know with the diminishing trade winds so we can't rely on one single source I mean we have to have diversity yeah by the way uh you guys I am actually going to Iceland and I'm I'm going to be looking at the geothermal in Iceland um and I'll give you a full report when I come back me and marina Marco Mangelsdorf we take a short break so I can review some travelogs about Iceland and then we'll be right back yeah but this crazy thing going on today I was just walking by and all these DJs and producers are set up all around the city I just walked by and I said what's happening guys they tell me they're making music I said we'll do it hey hello everybody thanks for joining us on Think Tech Hawaii I'm your host Andrew Lanning the security guy I host a program called Security Matters Hawaii and I hope you'll join us on Fridays uh we are at 10 a.m. and we're going to be talking about those security things that really should be important to you and you know maybe get behind the scenes on some some things that you may not know about the industry or about products or even about your habits um security is all about people processes and products and we hope to bring that to you in an informative and um hopefully a useful way so again 10 10 a.m. on Fridays Security Matters Hawaii on Think Tech Hawaii join me thank you okay we're back we're live well we're recording anyway with me to marina and Marco Mangelsdorf and we're talking about energy here on a monday and uh we have been discussing the volcano volcano and the eruption and its effect on energy in the big island and our internet went down but we're still going to create this show right now and the second part of the show we had contemplated was a discussion of the performance standards PUC docket and statute for that matter calling for an evaluation and a move toward performance standards by the utility in this case the utility is wine electric and its subsidiaries so I mean uh uh you first uh what does this signify what does it tell us to its performance service regulation is not well understood by the legislature basically I saw the bill as very so this this could have an effect on uh Hico's ability to raise money in the financial markets if it is seen as a political attack on Hico okay is it less is it less of an attack now I mean is is what the PUC is doing a more moderate approach why I think what can you explain that what is what is exactly the difference um and um you know why why can you not make performance the single standard performance based regulation is it you have to come up with do we know what those benchmarks are do you have some examples for us well right now the well you know it strikes me this is very hard you say performance uh I mean first of all you've got to identify what elements of performance you care about so let's say it's how fast they respond to calls let's say it's how reliable are they it's hard to quantify that it's hard to put that in a formula and say well you you know you're you're good you're bad you're in the middle whatever it is uh and it strikes me that um you know this is going to be a fits and starts experience it's going to be a a trial and error experience like building a business model you have to test it against the reality you have to see how how well it works and you need a a fair amount of time uh to develop the experience necessary um you know to to hone it down to you know reality Marco what do you think about the standards what kind of standards will be discussed what will be appropriate is this workable yeah I mean one one thing you know you've both said is it's going to affect uh wine electrics ability to raise uh funding in the capital markets if that's so if a wine electric has to pay more money uh for funding in the capital markets it's it's going to have to pass that along to the consumers therefore um right this could be very disruptive on rates don't you think and on this yeah well so I think what we have here is the beginning of a long conversation I mean among the three of us um and I you know one thing I I remember is that when this first was discussed publicly a wine electric uh indicated that it it felt uh that you know it would it would help it would cooperate would participate in the conversation to follow and I think that's a very politic response but um you know what is the conversation to follow is this going to be you know you mentioned the um you know the uh the underpinning of the bill was that it was very political uh is the conversation to follow going to be political is it going to be a continuation of uh you know all the controversial uh aspects of the next era deal and before that of the uh of rate making and and solar I mean it got very controversial there in that period of time are we going to have that again what is the conversation to follow going to look like Marco yeah this is a it's a policy wonks dream is what it is and you got two policy wonks on the commission as it stands I mean the new the new members of the commission and ultimately the burden is going to fall on them to come up with solutions that somehow satisfy the expectations of the legislature but don't damage the utility what do you think Mina yeah um at the end of the day at the end of the day uh this is a big test of the efficacy of the PUC to deal with um what happened here Marco closing words for you we only have a minute left oh my goodness oh my goodness I hope we can keep a lid on it just as we should keep a lid on PGV so this show has been about keeping a lid on things thank you so much Marco Mangelsdorf and Mina Merida two weeks hence we'll be back and these subjects will still be fresh