 Cool. Hi everyone. Welcome to this second session of the day today. It's a panel discussion around mentorship and pipeline in New England theater scene. And I am again, my name is Mina Malik. I use she, her, hers pronouns. I'm a South Asian and East Asian woman with olive skin black hair on top. Bottom part is kind of faded red. I'm wearing a top that's kind of off white color sweater and earrings that are big triangle shaped earrings, which is mixed with green and cream color that was gifted by Derek. Welcome. And I'm very excited to have these amazing people on the panel today. We have Janika, Don and Ethan who we'll hear from. I'm going to have them do a short intro. We were supposed to have Melissa as well on our panel today, but she sends her deep regrets and also appreciation for understanding for her not being able to be on this panel today because of her migraine, which was getting worse and worse as the day went. So she really is sad she was so sad she texted me like four times and please let them know. So we're sending good vibes to her so that she feels better soon. And we will miss her voice because she was going to talk specifically around kind of recruitment and this interesting place that she is between a big institution and also with local artists. But, given the time that we have, I'm pretty sure we have enough to talk about today. So, yeah, I'm excited to dive in. And I'm going to offer our panelists to first introduce themselves. I'll go with Janika first if you could briefly say who you are, your visual descriptions. What do you do within the field which state are you from? Hi everybody. Yeah, I'm Janika Brown Springer. I'm the director of Lifelong Learning at Heartbeat Ensemble. I do, well, visual description first, right? I am a Caribbean black girl, American born, wearing box braids black and down my shoulders also in a black shirt with a yellow green sweater unbuttoned but hanging off the sides. I'm also wearing my glasses today looking rather studious with little studs in my ears and some soft purple lip gloss in case you're curious. What was the other question? I missed something. What do you do in the field and where are you at? I guess I am in Hartford, Connecticut. I'm just going to make sure I read them correctly. On the land of the Mohegan, the Mashantucket Pequot, Eastern Pequot, Golden Hill Pugosa, and Chattacoke Peoples. I currently live in East Hartford, Connecticut. And so at the theater my role is mostly educational, whether I'm finding teaching artists that work in the classroom or want to do arts integration with other teachers. I also oversee our internship program so students can learn to write their own plays and produce them and all of the careers and roles that go along with that. And recently we've been trying out some open rehearsals for students and student matinees. So coordinating buses and field trips and bringing students to see live theater in a primarily persons of color on stage type of theater. So that is all the work that we do. Thanks, Janika. Very excited to have you here. Let's move to Dawn. Hi again. My name is Dawn Simmons. She her hers. I am also Caribbean black girl, middle age but I look younger. I'm real real cute. I'm also wearing glasses like just about everybody on this call. I'm a mid length curly hair, rocking some fabulous lipstick today. I am calling in from Maldon mass, which is on the land of the Pawtucket and Massachusetts people. Where am I, oh Massachusetts Maldon mass, although the porch works out of Boston. And then in the field. I do all the things so I am a co founder and co producing artistic director of the front porch arts collective. I am a freelance director and a playwright study playwriting in school. I am also an administrator, an occasional educator and occasional consultant. If you ask, if you ask me, can I do it? I don't know if I can, but I will. But I feel like that is also what happens for theater people were just like, yeah, I'll figure it out. Did I get it all. I think I got it all. You did. Thank you Don. And I know this about you that you people ask you and then you do things. So, and you do it really well. So, Ethan, now your turn interested about your lip gloss and lip treatment. Yeah. You know, I actually got it. It was in a little gift bag from JetBlue. So it's sitting right next to me. Look at that. It's lip glosses is the thing of the day and theme of the day. It's called amatomical stop cracking up lip balm. So there you go. My name is Ethan Paulini. I am I use the he series of pronouns. I am currently zooming from Manhattan, which is the unseated lands of the Lenape people. I am the producing I do a bunch of things. Let me start with the visual description. Italian Irish German heritage with sandy red sort of short hair. I'm currently wearing a black shirt with multi colored pattern on it, and some glasses with a blue frame. And we already covered the lip gloss so. I wear a lot of hats as well I am the producing artistic director of the weather vain theater in Whitefield, New Hampshire, which is on the land of the Abenaki people. It is an alternating repertory theater it is we're entering our 58 season I've been the producing artistic director for five seasons. We're committed to presenting high quality live professional theater as well as really fortifying our educational opportunities for the community and connecting and building bridges to the community which is a big part of my personal mission and part of the changes I've been trying to make with the organization. In addition. So that's half of my year. Actually, it's all my year but that's half of my hats, I guess. I'm also the associate artistic director of a company in New York called out of the box theatrics, where company an off Broadway nonprofit committed to making space for and lifting the voices of marginalized communities and presenting work in site specific locations to sort of challenge the expectations of our audiences. We practice that and we manifest those missions in the way that we cast and in the productions that we program whether they be traditional pieces that are done in and out of the box way or whether they are about making space for new voices so. And then in addition I have a business where I coach and mentor younger artists and actors, hashtag eats and coaches that as clients all over the country, and helps people sort of find their way in this crazy arts industry that we all love. And this is Mina speaking. It's really exciting to have you three here representing. Well, we don't represent but we are you are from different states. You know, urban settings rule settings we have a variety of different worlds you all come from, and you all working to build the next group of people on the pipeline in the theater field so excited to dive in. I originally had really boring questions and then I shifted my direction to asking more exciting juicy questions. So the first question I want to ask is, what is a holistic way of looking at mentorship and building pipeline because, you know, this is a systemic issue and I can't just change one part of it and hope that there's overall equity that suddenly will happen in the field. There's so many elements that kind of line up to lead to this inequity. You know, lack of access and whatnot so what else needs to change or shift with this what is a holistic way of looking at mentorship and building pipeline and I'll anyone who wants to start. And this can be conversational, as long as you say your name first. I'll jump in this is Ethan speaking. I think for me it's the, it is sort of a cliche word but it's access. It's, and it's for for us because specifically about whether vain mostly today because this is focused on New England and that's probably the biggest part of what I do. We're in a very, as I mentioned a rural and sort of demographically use what used to be a very demographically homogenous region that is changing and I think that what we are working to try and do is to the community that if you're interested in participating in the arts, especially as an artist. There is space for you and that our organization sort of looks like the way the county is changing. We're in Coas County which is the largest geographic county in New Hampshire with the smallest population. And in just the past three years, probably due to the pandemic and people sort of getting out of big cities. We have the large second largest growing BIPOC population in the in New England, which is really, really great. And that's for the, for the county, but we need to make sure that if we're an arts organization serving those folks that we say the programming reflects your experience, the opportunities reflect what what you how you're able to sort of enter that and, you know, that's the challenge that I think we're facing and I think that some of the like systemic changes that has to happen with, especially for me a very old, very stuck in its ways organization to sort of exist in 2022 and not be playing the whole well this is the way we've done it since 1970, you know, so that's sort of, I think where my challenges stem from. Hi everyone this is Dawn speaking, I think on top of what Ethan was saying for us access also is the, it's about pay. Right, I came up at a time where a lot of folks were doing internships we're doing mentorships they were doing all the stuff without being paid it that was the expectation right that you're, you're learning. So understanding that there are so many people who wish to avail themselves of mentorship opportunities. I'm talking very specifically like I think at the high school and college level right now, and I know this is a wider conversation. If you can afford to take that time away. How are we making sure then that this is something that does not put you in debt does not put you in at a disadvantage, as you were doing it. So for for us at the front porch it's also been about finding those ways that we can help alleviate some of that burden, so that you can take on the opportunity. But then again, even as you were saying like access, going even further out with access how are we getting to people, how are we finding folks right we're based in Boston but we also know that that community. Those identities that we want to pull in are so much further than that. So, how are we really like continually getting out there and getting in front of folks so that they know that this is an opportunity. And that and that takes a lot of work but then when we find those folks were also like we need you to radiate this opportunity right let people know. I'll stop there for now. In my two cents the just be don't forget the food. People come together for food there's so much cultural richness in that. And I think that's one of those basic needs that sometimes we forget. Oh well it's not in the budget we don't have catering like but how can we actually center that and make that part of the conversation if I did not eat today you do not want me to come there's there's a certain level of like being present that's really there when we know that most basic need is being met. Oh and we get to do it together. So I really, I'm really I'm with the food I love the food thing. I love that the and we're facing these challenges now, right but the humanity, how do we. How do we honor our humanity, as we are both as mentors and mentees. And that this work is also it is part of our work and it is outside of our work and right like you also don't want me necessarily to mentor or give advice or be in a position where I'm like, I am so hungry and I have not left the zoom in. Right, so how are we bringing that, how are we bringing that in so that it does not feel as rigid as structures like these ones did right that it sort of reflects our new reality I think are things that I'm always thinking about that we're always thinking about for the front porch. Yeah, thanks. This is Mina speaking, you know, on that point, we talked about this briefly at the pre panel and you all, you know, going a little deeper into that pay equity part of like you have to bite kind of be independent to be wealthy or your family supports in order to do even like you have to be independent to be a part of the relationship at these organizations so when you talk about diversity and inclusivity in the long run like, obviously it will be a certain type of people in certain class levels or certain socio economical level that would, you know, move in the career. I know you talked also about like smaller middle range organizations not being able to afford the rates like can you go deeper into that conversation to. This is even speaking. You know, don't forget the food is such a good and like overlooked way of thinking about it because we had an intern program that was really really sort of widely acclaimed in fact before I became the artistic director I ran the education and intern program for a season. It was a pay to play situation and. And again that was one of those like old school this is how it's always been it's a 30 year program. The kids get so much that was what we were always told they get so much for their money and I mean the justification of that used to be that the tuition they paid paid for the food that we provided. But in actuality like those things shouldn't be. You know, they should not they should not be mutually exclusive of each other they should be their own thing. They contributed a lot to the work that we were doing. And they were also human beings who had to eat. And so that was a thing that after my second season I did away with and actually created a stipend it is still not enough. At least it is saying to these young artists that like you, we're not telling you how much value we're giving you we're trying to show you how much value you're giving us. And since that time, the reality is is that that affects the bottom line, not having 10 to 12 students paying a tuition is a huge chunk out of our production budget that then we have to figure out how to like where to make up that difference. I am I certainly personally believe that like you make up the difference in the quality that if people sort of see what that quality is and you know we simply get better. The motivation to work in the mode and the pride that the young artist taken their work is that much better when they feel valued. And I think that ultimately you can pass that on through the messaging to the community of saying like, you know, the shows are better or the educational program offerings are better because you've got these young dynamic artists who feel like they're a valuable part of the of the community that you're creating for the larger community so but but then that pay equity extends like all the way up to what we consider sort of the top of the food chain which is our equity actors that come in from New York and Boston and Chicago and LA and all over the country, you know their their rates are set by a union, and that's not enough. And so if they're sort of making the most then it's like, it is just so hard to to to attract. Not necessarily the most talented but the most sort of the folks who are right for your organization at wherever they are in their career because education is such a huge part of what we do that we want to be creating the space where folks can come in and say, I'm just starting out I'm ready to learn, but you still got to pay them, you know, like that's really the reality of it. And I wish I had a solution, because I would share it now, but I don't every year I think that's the tricky it's like tightrope that I walk when making the budget. You know, and then imparting that to the board. We can't pay people in the scene shop $300 a week that's not. It doesn't matter whether we're paying whether we're feeding them and housing them and how slim our margins are we've got to figure out another way. So, it's not, you know, it's not easy. I don't think it's easy whether you're in an urban or a rural setting. This is Dawn I want to cosine everything that you think just great like we're the world is demanding more of us and we are trying to change our budgets in real time. And that goes all the way down the line. For everything that we might do. And so we are catching up. I, I appreciate those moments where right we're offering money. It's not enough. It maybe feels like a token. We know we are going to like step it up again. But I guess I want to take the time to say, not again not an excuse but just everything that we're doing right now is iterative. For as much as we are trying to get out there and make things better. I mean that sort of patience and flexibility on the ends of other folks as well is so is so necessary and gives us gives us the motivation to keep going but like I, I see so many, I see so many organizations trying to like change that and make that make that sense. And to make I feel like when we were sort of doing our pre gaming conversation, we talked a little bit too about for students again coming back to students, like what are the, is there school credit that you can get are there other ways of like compensation or there are other things that can happen that can make these things worthwhile and not make them burdensome. Right, but it's really us all changing our minds. And then sticking to it and like you said even like fighting the board or fighting the board working with the board. Changing hearts and minds. Yes, I totally hear you Don and this is Janika as well. And something else that we were talking about had to do with, you know, partnering with some of the other organizations other theaters that are nearby and this. This poll of like, can we even be on the same pay scale. What are you paying your teaching art like I want to keep my people I've trained them they're awesome. But I know that you're paying them like what they're worth and how do I how do we do that thing where we're on the same page but also we're not on the same budget, we're not on the same scale right like, can we actually keep up with that. Or, are we willing to kind of lose those folks so I think that's why we were talking about other other ways to keep those interns to not drop my summer program like how do I support them in a way that's beneficial to what they're already doing their degree or college students can I do teaching credits like, right, how do I bring in those other leaders or students in other ways that maybe it's maybe it's not monetary but still, how do I keep like the juiciness and the value of the money by doing that. Yeah, this is even speaking, just sort of tagging on to that. I, I mean, I have had to sort of like re even retrain my mindset to think about how paying someone more money or providing the more resources access to application of what it is they want to do as a career is actually like an investment in back in the organization, like if you spend more money to retain that person that you have trained and that is, you know, a strong part of your organization, it was worth every penny in the long run because, you know, every time you have to start from scratch, you don't get to go all the way back to their starting salary the world changes. And so that's really, I think that's really an important thing that I've had to sort of like think about is that it's not. Oh, this person has gotten so expensive. It's, oh, we have invested so much in this person that the value they're adding back to what we do is so worth it. And sometimes that, you know, helps me sleep at night and makes my budget not so scary. This is Mina speaking, thanks all for sharing those real vulnerable scariness of budgets and how that relates to this. You know, I was just on a panel the other day and they were like, how do you find the next talent, like especially BIPOC talent, like they're not around and I was like, they are there's so many like what do you mean, like sometimes I hear this issue around pipeline, people think that they don't exist but is this really a pipeline issue and that they they're not people around or is it like lack of access lack of knowledge can you go a little deeper into that. This is Janika I feel like I want to jump in there because I don't think it's a lack of they don't exist right I think it might be an access thing. It's a lack of knowledge which you can't have if you don't have access to it right. And sometimes there's this expectation in older organizations that people are going to come to us, come apply to my thing come over here I'm awesome. So since starting in this position I'm like, Oh, when is the next farmers market. Let me go meet some people. What are you guys doing after school. What's your career day, can I come talk to your class can I can I come in there for 10 minutes. So can we go where the people are with those communities are that we want to work with us, you know and it's this realization that it also might change what my program looks like. This is what was handed down to me and grandfathered in but if that's not what the people need right now if that's not like what it's going to continue looking like in this ever changing world and landscape that it is. How do I stay present with what those needs are my community. Any thoughts Don Ethan. And speaking, I, yeah, I completely agree I think that it is. The only thing I can say is that I think it is incumbent upon the leaders of an organization to like, look, like look, you've just got to look of course there are people out there. And of course there are people who want opportunities. And like you said there shouldn't be an expectation that because my organization is almost 60 years old that everyone knows who we are and everyone knows what we do and everyone should say oh I want to work in theater so I'm going to go to this sort of place and seek out the opportunity we should be saying, we should be providing that information in a way that is exciting and a way that, you know, like I said, our biggest challenge has been. When I took over it was like a perception in the community that we were only for the elite people who were who lived in the North country because they could afford like a second home. It wasn't even where they called community, and and so, you know, in building our community we had to think about how we served them and I, you know, it's little things like last year we were doing a production of kinky boots and it calls for a young black actor to play young Lola in the opening and I was talking to the director who is a black artist who was in kinky boots on Broadway and has worked off like has worked on this show for many years it is in his DNA. And I said, What are we going to do about this opening scene and he knowing where we were was like yeah I know it's going to be so tough we've got to think of an alternative we've got to think of an alternative and my partner. And who also works with us at the theater as an artist turned to both of us and was like, But have you looked. And I was like, No, we actually haven't. So we put out like a local audition to the community and we had options. I mean we, we, we found what we were looking for and had options and it was like, and it was a real turning point for me sort of in like three and a half of my time there to be like, Oh, I have to I have to be the one to look I'm the one who's been placed in this position. And I am very aware of the position of privilege I sit in sit in as a white man to make that space and and say there is room for everyone inside this tent. So, but but it but the messaging has to start from the person who gets to make those decisions, you know, and, and that. Yeah, that was just such a clear turning point and I think it's so it's easy for us as an organization to reflect that in our professional artists. You know, we have we've done a wonderful job of like, engaging LGBTQ, BIPOC actors, artists with disabilities and all levels. But it's, it now has to be about the community that we are that we exist in. And so that was just sort of a moment that I remember it really kind of becoming crystallized for me. This is Dawn, and I'm, I'm going to be all over the place I'm going to try to focus a bit. There is this, the idea of well where do we find these folks are they out there is there that talent and I feel like this is that question has been out there, since I've been working in theater, right, for over 20 years. My frustration is they're like, okay, now I have somebody like Ethan or Janika who's like great, I'm going to give you here are a couple of like things strategies, here's what we're doing. Right, we keep saying that in these conversations but then there's somebody else who like, I heard it, and I'm still like, I don't think there's the talent out there so like when do we actually stop and be like, clearly this isn't a priority for me. And that can be true, right, like it can be like we're pressed for time we're a team of five like all, but right. How, how do we stop coming back to these conversations when like that information has been put out there and what the answer is is it's hard work. You have to get out in the communities you can expect people to come to you, you have to actually look. Right, I have so often had people who are like, hey, do you have identity identity identity type person here, not like, I will send you the list, right, sometimes I'm sending a list sometimes I'm like, not today. Right, when, when do we acknowledge it's work, it's going to put us out, it's going to take some time away from the 20 other things that we already have to do, but that we're going to do it and I, I say that as somebody who is guilty of it as well like there are times where I'm like, yeah, I need this thing. And I'll figure it out, but I might also take a nap. I need a minute, and then I'm going to come back and regroup and get this right. I don't have an answer. I want an answer. This is Mina. Thank you. Yeah, that was said a couple times that we don't have the answer. That's okay. We're here talking about in trying to figure out together we're smarter as a collective than we are as individuals. So that's why we're here. And we encourage your nap. We support your nap Don. Yeah, this is great. I love the meeting people at the farmers market. I would love to have met you, Jamaica, when I was in high school that way. And it is work to look for people, it is work. So shifting a little bit. You know, even finding mentors, there are access issues, particularly if you are of an identity that is kind of marginalized or not enough of in the field. How did you receive mentorship yourself? How did you navigate that and any suggestions on how to find mentors and develop relationships? This is Don. I sort of grew up with that idea of right, you're going to make a way no matter what, get the thing that you need. Everybody is a mentor. Every person that you are talking to can give you some information. So I think for me it's never been a formal sort of it has been formal but it's also very casual. Right, Mina, I consider you a mentor. Janika, and even now that I'm knowing you and hearing about you, right, like this, this is it, like multi directional learning is happening all the time. So I think sometimes we just have to sort of recognize that those casual conversations we are having are the places where we're learning, I think, especially so much theater. Not everybody gets to come to it from like that educational level like not everybody has gone to university. And so a lot of folks are learning on the job. Right, I learned arts administration on the job. And so everything that was coming into me was that. And then just being able to say, and this is something I used to say to everybody all the time and I still do it but like, hey, can we have coffee can I talk to you about this thing. It's a little harder now. Right. And yet it's easier on zoom, but there are some people are like, I spend too much time. We're in a different place but what are those opportunities where you can be like can I pick your brain for five minutes how can I ask a question, how can I get more information that will get me to a place that I need to be. And that's really just being able to sort of like, I don't want to say like have the gumption, but how can you, how can we empower ourselves to say like, okay, I don't have that traditional course of learning. So this is what I'm going to do. I'm also was a person who just took every opportunity right in my field because I wanted to learn about all of that. And again coming from a place of privilege where I had the time and the resources and the money to be able to take that low paying like I'm going to run crew for eight weeks for $400. I would not ask somebody to do that again but like back in the early 90s early odds, I can do that. So, Don, what are you saying, I am saying, right, find the opportunities, right where you can try the worst that can happen is that somebody says no. And you move on to the next, but also keeping your eyes open that as you're having these conversations. Right, I've seen in the chat several times farmers market like, you know I wrote that down I was like, I mean people the farmers market right there. It doesn't have to be so formal. I mean, Ethan. Here here yes yes, totally 100%. I will say like, I feel like I sort of fell into this position to be honest like, in a lot of ways because I grew up my mother was a visual artist so be the idea of like being an artist as a career was always available to me. And that helped and put me immediately at an advantage in that regard but then going out and trying to build my own career. I was that person. I was the squeaky wheel who like wasn't interested in just being the hired help in an organization. I started as an actor, and I so I would get hired at a theater I would be that performer who would go to the Education Director and be like so. So I would get hired at a theater in London or like ask the production manager like what's coming on the horizon or turn to the marketing director be like how do you build an audience in little rock Arkansas like, and what I feel so fortunate about is that that curiosity was almost always rewarded with opportunity. instead, they were like, oh, you're interested. Let me tell you more about it, because that's validation for someone who's working hard at something they believe in. That curiosity is saying, oh, what I'm doing is being recognized. And I think most people really want that. They want to talk about the things they're passionate about. And I will say that in my coaching with some of the younger artists, I talk about how something happened in this industry, or maybe it's just the way it's always been. I don't know, where we haven't demanded transparency in the way that I think people are willing to give it. We haven't set up a place where if you just ask the question nine times out of 10, the person is happy to answer. Instead, there's like this, oh, that person's on some kind of pedestal. So they're not approachable enough to ask that question. When in actuality, I think we miss a lot of things we don't even realize are available to us by not sort of like asking those questions. So agree 100% like go out there, ask people for five minutes of their time, ask them to sit down with coffee or Zoom or both and just ask them those questions that you're curious about. And oftentimes that will lead them to say, come in and try it. And I think, and that's how I, that is quite literally how I ended up in these positions because it was always, at the theater that I currently run, I started there as just an actor and looked around and was like, there is so much more opportunity here. So I'm gonna ask the powers that be, the people who make those decisions, why and how they're making those decisions. And they would say, okay, next time you come here, you're gonna do this thing that we know that you do and then this other thing that you've expressed an interest in. Yes, yes, to all of that. I think I was a little sneaky about my mentorships because I would just ask to help, right? I'm someone who came to theater from a more visual arts lens. I thought I was gonna be an interior designer, like maybe I'll do set, I don't know, like having this multi-arts thing. I know that I have different mentors for different reasons, but I also didn't know who they should be, who I wanted them to be, who were those people that I looked up to and I don't think looking up to someone means that they're older than you. That may not be the case either. So just asking if I can help. I have a friend that's painting a mural, like can I hold a paintbrush? Can I just come and hold the paint? She said, yes, and I got to paint a thing. So finding ways that I'm offering to help or I just wanna be in the room. I just wanna be a fly on the wall and see what you do and maybe get a little bit messy. And also I'm probably good talking to those kids over there, right? And then there are opportunities that come out of that just by that willingness. I like that you said curiosity to be in the room. This is Mina, that was great. Thank you. I love that intergenerational and an inter-art form mentorship. It doesn't have to look like one type. You know, I love that. Before we move into Q&A, because time is just flying. This question that Janika gave me, which is brilliant is the last question I wanna ask. So where does mentorship start and end? How early can we start? Who is it for? This is Ethan. I hope it never ends a little bit because I always wanna be looking up to people and I always kind of wanna be, I think one of the things that has always attracted me to arts and the arts and humanities and those kinds of studies is that it always evolves and it always changes. Whereas like, you know, if you're a accountant, nothing against the countens, but like you learn numbers. If you're a scientist, you learn the periodic table, that stuff doesn't change as much as like the trends in art and theater and just the way and just the way they can be reinterpreted and the way they can be filtered through different lenses and experiences and minds and all of that. So for me, it's like, I hope that there's always people I look up to. I know there are now and I hope that I can continue to kind of learn from them and I hope that they'll always sort of be open to that curiosity, my favorite word. And then I think it starts. I think how it starts and when it starts is such a personal thing. Like there's some moments, there's some, hopefully there's some events that tells you and makes that sort of clear, but the clarity to me has to be, gosh, this is harder to put into words than I thought it would be more abstract than I meant it to be. But the clarity of this is what I want to do, but with the awareness that there's so much uncertainty in front of what that is, you know? It's not, I want to be in theater and so that means that I'm gonna go to school and learn how to sing and dance and be on Broadway. Cool, you can do that and you're gonna find a mentor that's gonna help you with that. But like true mentorship for me is this is the thing I think I want to do and here are all the different ways in which that manifests itself and then you sort of adjusting your metrics to prioritize what's important. And once you sort of can adjust those metrics and it's not about just that singular sort of bullseye goal but it's a bigger spectrum of possibilities is when you're then going to be open to like taking what other people can tell you from their experiences and putting together your own mosaic. So yes, that was very abstract and it makes perfect sense in my mind and what I'm saying and I'm sure everyone's like, huh? But yeah. I would love to just add how much I have been looking for that sentence and come on right at all. That's cool, great. So most recently I've been looking for more opportunities to mentor. So that beginning and ending can also like start with you, you know. And so I've been trying to do it in more formalized ways. I reached out to my college Trinity to see what are they doing in career services and they matched me up with a theater and dance student who's interested in acting and was also looking for like a BIPOC mentor to give advice or I don't have any advice about acting. I'm a teacher. But it's been so nice to like talk to her and be curious about what her journey is and what is she interested in doing next. So it's just been a new thing for me I think and looking for new places to mentor or finding youth that are curious because those are the ones that I'm curious about. This is Mina. Don, you have any thoughts on this? Where does mentorship start and end? I mean, right? It feels so sort of amorphous to me. I'm gonna borrow from Ethan and say I think it's incredibly personal. For me, I can say, right? I'm at this place and this goes to the article that you sent me Mina, right? Like how do we acknowledge our power? How do we acknowledge like what we know and our expertise but also stay in that place of yes, I have some skill. Yes, I have some expertise. I don't know everything. And then again that like multi-directional I think multi-generational learning. For me, I can speak very specifically about an experience that happened when I was the executive director of stage source. And right, we were in that mode of the pandemic. The staff of that organization much younger than me as the executive director, right? Gen X and like millennials and Gen Z. And as we are working for like over the couple of years that I was there wanting to create this different culture wanting to create a culture that was more humane that was anti-racist that was sort of moving towards social and economic justice. And there would be decisions that I would want to make based in a very old model of working. And that staff, and I would say even the staff of the front porch now like well would hold me accountable to the okay but if you as a leader saying this is what we're gonna do this is how we wanna be and where we wanna be these few things don't jive. How do we look at that? And actually being open and trying not to be hurt don't get me wrong. There were times where I'd be like well this is how it's done. This is how people. And then like being able to step back and say like okay let me think about this. And am I just trying to justify is this the easy way to do things? Or is there something else here that I can like learn and glean? And I think starting there and then continuing that on has been like so valuable but I didn't know that was how it was gonna be. I didn't know that those opportunities were gonna come. I didn't know that I was the kind of person who could listen, right? I know that as someone else's employee I wished that my higher ups would. They did not always. Sometimes they have information that I don't have and I think like those are all like that's all so deep and entrenched in these conversations but also being able to say like oh there are other people there who listen to you hear what you're saying and are checking you and it's not bad. It doesn't always feel great. But like how do you take that and move on? How do you learn? And I never, I never know where that's gonna come. I never know when that's gonna happen but being open to it. But going back to it, because again amorphous also trusting my own expertise and trusting where I have been and where I see things going and sort of I don't know that is the multi-directional learning is the like also the like I hear you but here's also what I know and how do we come together and how do we have those conversations that get us all to a better point? That's where I am and they're like when does this all begin? How does it end? Who's it for a journey? It's messy. Messy is beautiful. It is. Yeah. It is. Yeah, a teacher, this is Meena. One time I was when I was still pursuing opera as a student. I was practicing and it was really hard. I wasn't getting this whatever. I wasn't getting things perfect. That's what I said to the teacher and he was like perfection is not beautiful. I was like it's true but I'm a student in a conservatory and that's what you're teaching me. So yeah, thank you all for sharing all those messiness and yeah, deep thoughtfulness and how you were doing this work within your own specific communities. It's so valuable to hear everything and I want to open it up to Q&A from the folks who are in the room who has been sharing lots of thoughts in the chat box resonating with all the things you're saying. But feel free to unmute and speak the question into the space or you can put your question in the chat and these lovely people will respond to you. Yes, Karen. Hi, this is Karen Krollup, co-artistic director of Monkey House. She, her, I don't know why that will never stay on my Zoom profile, my pronouns. I am a white woman with really long pale hair. None of you can see me though. At any rate, my question is around something that's come up in several circles around disability and how to be able to have more mentoring opportunities for people and artists with disabilities, especially given some of the challenges that exist within the physical spaces that we all occupy for theaters, whether it's backstage that are not accessible or stages that only have one way that somebody with a mobility device can use them or questions that have come up from deaf colleagues around like how to be able to be in spaces where there's ways of using lights to be able to notify people, things like that. And I'm just wondering how other people are addressing, reaching out to that community and being able to fund the access needs. You know, it's hard enough to be able to find money just for mentoring, but how are you finding funds to be able to support the access needs and services to go along with mentoring for people with disabilities? This is Dawn speaking specifically to Massachusetts and Boston, right? The MCC and our good friend Charles Baldwin, who runs the UP initiative, does a lot of access work here. He is an individual who I think can help organizations find dollars and support, right? Like Charles is the person. But also, I mean, I think also sitting in conversations with folks in those communities, right? I hate to say like the takeaway message is you have to be about it. Like we have to be thinking about those communities all the time first and not as a like, oh, crap, this person's coming in. How do we take care of them? So I think for us, it's about looking at all of those things. What are the basic needs that we think we can cover? And then what do we need to do about those? And again, we're certainly not great at that right now. But trying to make sure that those communities are always top of mind. I think some really incredible resources though, right? Just starting with MCC in Massachusetts are really, really helpful. This is Ethan. So out of the box, the company that I'm the Associate Artistic Director was founded by a blind actor. And she is an actor that we then have now hired at the Weatherbane and she's now a company member from the past two seasons there as well. And I think being about it is a great way of putting it because you have to, you have to not, for us, it was about the work. It was about the work with the staff before her arrival to make sure that those spaces were not the that she wasn't having to ask for everything, that she could see the things that had been done to make, to make accommodations for her being a part of the space and feeling welcome in the space. And then her telling us what we had to adjust. Not, here's our space. Now tell us what to do. Instead it was like the stage manager, you know, proactively printing large print scripts that she could access, the, you know, the adjusting where our rehearsals took place. We have three rehearsal spaces. One is accessible, two or not. So even just like thinking about those things ahead of time. And then in collaboration with her, that was at the Weatherbane and then in collaboration with her, we did sort of a revival here in New York of the musical baby that is about three different couples going through the experience of childbirth and wanting to have a child or being surprised by a child and all of these things. And we rewrote the younger couple to be played by her as a blind actor and then a deaf actor. And I will, and so it was really fascinating because again, that was also about like, we don't know what the experience is. So all we have to do is show you what we know and then hopefully they feel that sort of, okay, I am welcome here, I am valued here. And then they will sort of guide you on that. And we have been lucky in that both, this is like a secret that like you give it away and you hope it doesn't change. We have not had a problem finding grants to support that kind of accessibility. And the sad part about that is I think the reason is because not enough people are doing it. So the money is out there and there's only a few people applying for it or trying to do that. So, you know, for the production here in New York, we had every moment that Johnny, the deaf actor was working in the rehearsal studio, he had an interpreter available to him. And the changes and that, you know, we got a pretty sizable grant to sort of cover that and support that, but, and same thing, up at Weathering, we've been able to get funding for that. And I hope that more people seek it out, but I also hope that doesn't mean that it sort of gets spread so thin that it actually doesn't end up helping anybody, but I hope there's ways to see that there's a need for it that then enhances it and makes it even more available. I think also this is Dawn again. I would say don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. If you're out there and you're like, I can't take care of everybody. Start where you can. Right. Start where you can. And keep building. This is Mina. Yeah, I love that. Don't let perfect be enemy to good and good. Janika, did you want to add anything to this question? So much. Oh, I've so much to add. Are you sure? Yes, we are. We want to hear. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. In short. I'm just thinking about another organization and part of nightfall Hartford, who does a lot of giant puppetry and a show in the park. A public showing. And we've been doing a lot this year. Last few years, but especially this year on accessibility. And thinking about it in deeper ways, not just. Is there wheelchair access to come see the show? Like, no, how do we dig deeper about this? Can we actually get a wheelchair on stage safely? Or is the deaf community part of. Writing a scene. Can they be part of the creation of the thing? Like what, what are the safety mechanisms? And I love that Ethan was saying there are rehearsal spaces that are conducive to certain things and some that are not. Do we need to start thinking about other spaces, having a translator? What's going on our audition forms? What's going on. What's going on. What's going on. What's going on. What is this in multiple languages? Can we accept verbal audition? It just so many questions and like possibilities and new people that we get to work with. And the realization that a lot of it is going to take time and it's going to come from relationship building. I might actually need to learn sign language first. Before I can start doing some of the things that we were hoping to do that. It's not always just about finding a translation service. But how do we actually embed this accessibility into all the things we do or have all these voices on the board? How do we, how do we actually integrate it and make it a real and actually inclusive organization? Not just on the surface. So that was a lot in like a little bit of time, but that's just what's coming up for me. This is Mina. Thanks, Shanika. That. Yeah, that was the, yeah, intentional. Yeah. It's no, it's not going to summarize everything. That was beautiful. We are at time. Unfortunately, right on time. I know we could have talked for, I don't know, hours and moved into cocktails and everything. But thank you so much, Janika, Don and Ethan for spending your time and sharing your lived experiences and your truths and what you're doing in your ensembles and organizations and in your community. We really appreciate hearing it. It's inspiring. It's also exciting to know that we're not alone in this, that there are people in New England doing this work. So connect with them on Hoover and keep in touch. And thank you all for attending this panel and spending your lunchtime with us. We really appreciate your presence and your questions and your, or your shout outs and everything in the chat box. So. Yay. Thank you. Can I pass it to Lilani to mention the next session? Yeah, yeah. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, great. My camera's being real funky. Oops. 130 not to 15. Thank you, Derek for correcting me. The link is in the chat. You can also find it in the agenda on Hoover, which is also where you can find out more as Nina mentioned about our wonderful panelists and facilitators, performers and speakers throughout today, including our three wonderful panelists from today's session. And our next performance is at 130. So 15 minutes from now with house of glitter. And we hope we will see you all there again. If you have questions or their accessibility needs that have not yet been met for you today, you can reach out via chat via Huba or via my email address, which I will put in the chat again. Thank you all for joining us. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you again to our fabulous panelists. This was an incredibly enriching decision. And I'm very grateful for the opportunity to be part of this panel. And I just wanted to say thank you for the great opportunity. And I just wanted to say thank you for joining me on this panel. And thank you for the great opportunity I was not on camera and facilitating, because I was making a lot of noise by myself. My cat is very mad at me.