 for the people, I'm Jay Fidel, this is think thanks for the 11 o'clock block on a given Thursday, I'm with Tim Appichella, Winston Welch, our guest here for discussion, a change up discussion, if you will, about while Rome is burning, actually while Rome is fiddling, the world is burning, okay? Or at least our relations with Russia and China are burning. And, you know, it was so fascinated, you know, the news is so full of this blow by blow, every moment discussion of the politics and who's gonna do what and what their aspirations and arguments are, nothing happens, but at the end of the day, while all that's going on, we have degrading relations and increasing threats from both Russia and China. So I thought we'd do a change up today and talk about that because that is a reality. And although not much is happening in Washington, at least not much in legislation, a lot is happening in terms of our relationships with those two countries especially. And welcome to the show, Tim, Winston, thank you for coming down. Good morning. So we know that we have had a problem with Russia for a while and there's a distinction between how Russia operates on us and how China operates on us. Let's talk about Russia first. What's the status of our relationship with Russia? Joe Biden thought he was gonna, you know, have some control over, he went and talked to Putin and I've got some sort of, you know, agreement. I'm not sure you could say it was a binding agreement of any kind going a few months ago, but it seems like there's no question, like they are interfering with our election 2022 and 2024. And they're busy hacking us. How's our relationship with them? Can't we do better? Is that for me? Yeah. Okay, yeah, we could do better, but I think we've made remarkable progress since the Trump administration. Anything went with Russia when Trump was president. And I think we've set the tone back to where it needs to be set and that is, you know, firm but fair. I wish we were a little bit more firm in our interaction with Russia. You know, Joe Biden went over there. Yeah, and it's talked about no tolerance for hacking, but yet it continues. And it's a carte blanche invitation for hackers to do so. And Putin says, I have no control over him, but we know that's not true. He, of course, he has control over it. He has control of everything that goes on with cyber crimes. And it all leads back to the Kremlin. And so we're doing good, but we could do a lot better. So Winston, what damage is happening by virtue of Vladimir Putin's efforts against the United States? It doesn't stop at hacking. He's doing everything he can to foment division and unrest using social media. It's like happening every day in various states. And I think if you take a look back down the field and now you will see that the, what do they call it, the internet research agency is busy undermining our society. What damage is happening? What damage is being done to us? Well, that's exactly it, isn't it? It's been happening over the, it's the slow steady as it were, especially accelerated in the last administration. I think Tim's right that there's a new sheriff in town and he said, look, basically, you can do damage with our stuff, but we also can do it the same way around. So mind your P's and Q's. We know that they're gonna continue to do it. That's not going to happen, but it seems that there's been some reset because we just don't hear a lot about this as much as we used to. And I don't know, maybe it's, there's some idea that there's a, because of the new sheriff, things aren't going on and maybe they are going on worse than they ever have been or maybe they're on a different level or more insidious or just more subtle, but it seems like there's been some understanding that's been reached. I noticed the Europeans stood up a little bit and flexed their muscles and the Russians pulled out their ambassadors to NATO for some kerfluffle there because the Europeans had kicked out some of their emissaries as spies. Of course they were spies, but that's what they do. They just have a list of people when they're ready to kick some dust up. So the Europeans are, I think as part of all of this is that you're getting these realignments and this reawakening as America may not be seen as, especially in the past administration as the trustworthy ally as it was before. And Joe Biden is having to repair and strengthen those relationships as best as he possibly can, but sometimes the damage is done. And I think the Europeans, when they say they may have to chart their own path towards security, but they also absolutely want the American partnership and the American umbrella and they know that they cannot do without that. They're just simply, they're not able to and they don't want to. And somehow we've just all got to get along. There was an interesting article I sent to you today which was William Shatner's cried when he came back from his venture into space seeing this tiny blue ball out there. And he said, every person on earth needs to go see this thing of our little blue pan planet in a sea of blackness, just nothing else out there. And maybe that's kind of what we need to do is send up all our world leaders and say, okay, now look back at this and figure out how are we gonna get along in this and that said, that's a little Pollyannish, but. No, I think they ought to take Congress, especially the Republicans up there in space. I'm not sure they should bring them back but they should take them up in space. The moon colony. Yeah. And have them look and see that little ball. Tim, I wanted to ask you this, it seems like Putin's orientation over the years, over his whole career, is to try to disassemble, disrupt anybody in competition with him. So, what he does in terms of driving wedges in the United States, and he's done that, we know that. If you recall all the news stories since the beginning of Trump when we first became aware of this, he's done it on a regular basis in the US but he's also done it in other countries. We know he's done it in the UK. He's done it in any country that he considers an adversary. And I think what's interesting is he wants the West to be disrupted and he is disrupting it country by country with few exceptions, all of Western Europe and of course the United States. And I think there's a reason for that. There's a grand plan for that because if he can make us look bad, then he's more powerful. And can you talk about that? What his long-term strategy might be? I think his long-term strategy is that which Khrushchev stated back to Kennedy, I think it was 61, we will overtake you and not a shot will be fired. That is his overall strategy that, remember, he's still a communist. I don't care what anyone says. He's a communist at heart and he's a former expert in KGB matters. And that's his nature. That's just who Putin is. And that is to disrupt societies in Europe and the United States and build up Russia, a corrupt Russia, a land of oligarchs and that enrich him personally. And the more he can disrupt and garnish illegal money, the better for Putin. He's no hero of the people. And- Can we trust him? Can Joe Biden trust him? No, not for a second. How do you deal with that? Well, how do you deal with it is you, Reagan used to say, you dovenino provonai, trust but verify. But you don't trust. You just have to verify over and over again what Russia says they're gonna do if we're in an agreement with them on nukes or any agreement we have with them. You don't trust them. You just have to verify everything with actions and not words. And unfortunately, I think Biden tends to trust people more than he ought to. But I think he's on to Putin and I think he's not naive with the nature of Putin in his KGB ways. And that's why I have hope that we will be a stronger nation and not as permissive. The last five years has been a disaster. And it's Putin's dream come true that Trump was president of the United States and looked to the brink that Russia has influenced us in the elections. And it couldn't have gotten any better for Putin that we're in a cold civil war right now. I mean, he's laughing every day as he's eating his caviar. And what can I say? He's a happy guy. Well, Winston, is he happy because the Republicans seem to be running things in Congress? Is that, does that work for Putin? Are the Republicans aware of this problem? Is the Republican leadership in Congress able to do anything about it or willing? Or are they just following what happened with Trump? And if they are following what happened with Trump, is Congress neutralized on this issue also? Well, they get the same briefings as the Democrats do on these intelligence committees and they ostensibly know what's up. So hopefully, they would draw a line around that but we saw in the last administration that they were willing to line up behind Donald Trump more than putting national security ahead. But when it comes right down to it, I would be surprised if it's... Well, that said, I mean, when we're not strengthening our voting laws and security laws around that and our just basic intrusions into our democracy, it's hard to wrap around it like Tim says. Putin says, I don't have any control over that. And of course he does. At the end of the day, it's up to us to strengthen this. We can't rely on someone like Putin to be doing what we need to be doing ourselves. Is he happy? Yeah, he's happy. He runs a big country where he is an authority. That's not that big. He's a... His national product is really rather small. He's an authoritarian leader who commands, I think, reasonable respect from his people. I think they... Well, and you put Navalny in jail. He has the power to do that. You put your political adversary in jail. They don't have a special fighting. Winston, when Trump was first elected, okay? The nexus between Trump and the NRA and the nexus between the NRA, thanks to that woman who was ultimately arrested for it and Russia was all very clear, it was triangular. Trump, NRA, Russia, okay? And one time, I think it was the New York Times, went to a gun show in the South and they went through a gun show with their cameras and interviewing people, trying to be flat effect about it. And the question they put to people at the gun show, the NRA crowd was, how do you feel about Russia? And the answer uniformly, universally, everybody they asked was, the US has been much too hard on Russia. They're really nice people. We have been politically wrong in our diplomatic relations with Russia. It's time we got friendly with Russia. It's time we bonded up with Russia and capitulated to some of their demands, what have you. And I thought that was extraordinary because in the past, don't you remember the Republicans were down on Russia big time, down on Russia because it was the communist pinkos over there and something switched. Did you follow that? Do you know what I'm talking about? Well, consider their news source of most of the folks that are going to those shows. And if it's coming from Fox and they have a specific agenda that they wanna push and the Republicans have been reasonably absent on that, I think that the traditional Republican line has been that, it has been strong. It may rise again and they may view these sort of external threats as important as they used to. And roles are flip-flopping now all across the spectrum about what's important and what's not for each party. And it's interesting just sort of to see where these things are coming up to lie. But it doesn't surprise me. Now, if you look at it from like Russia's perspective, Russia's always been kind of, they're right next to Europe. They're part of the West in a sense. We have these very basic ideas of how we should organize our economies. The peoples are of a similar background. And yet they've kind of always had their own area. They have their own area of influence. They're looking right now, you think about it. They've got NATO basically banging down their door. They have a natural paranoia that the West is sort of coming after them. And I can understand that on some level. So they want to keep us off kilter too. They want to make sure that we don't really know, are they gonna invade Ukraine? Are they gonna rattle Lithuania or Estonia? Are we really a threat to them? Do you really think the US is a threat to Russia? I mean, Russia definitely a threat to us, but are we threatening them in some way? We have, besides the 20,000 nuclear missiles pointed at them, not a huge threat. We have way more in common with the Russians than we do. We have way more in common with everybody on this planet. We all want a decent government. We want good schools. Let me go to Tim. Let me just jump in on that last point Winston made. And as the greatest threat to Russia is the conversion away from fossil fuels. Cause that is Russia is one of their big exports. And that threatens Russia. Yeah, sure. And they have a very important relationship to the Western Europe on gas. And we have a lot of gas here. I don't mean in Congress. I mean, real gas, natural gas. And we are trying to sell it to the world. Trump was doing that. And I think that, you know, the business that the industry around energy and gas is wants to do that, wants to sell American gas to the world. So we are competing with them on energy and fuel that way. But let me ask you this though. Winston said, and I take everything Winston says, very, very, very, very seriously. We haven't heard much, okay? Since the early days of the Trump administration. But all the things that Russia has been doing, you know, maybe the news has gotten old or other news has supplanted it. News in Congress, for example, news about the insurrection, those kinds of things. Okay, but the fact is just a few days ago, the FBI raided the two magnificent properties. One in, let's see, one in Washington and one in New York, was it? That were owned by this big shot Russian guy. And they didn't say, you know, what they were raiding it for, but they took out a lot of data. And that suggests that the FBI is now again, busy. They have, you know, indicted and they have caused the, you know, exclusion of various people charged with espionage and improper conduct, diplomatic conduct in the US. But this seems somehow different. This seems to be leading to somewhere. Where do you, I know we're speculating here. Well, what I remember of this article or this newsflash was, this is the oligarch that was tied in with, remember the Trump administration had passed election data, research data to a Russian, that's the Russian's house that they invaded. They had a warrant for it and searched and got more data. So maybe it ties all back to that. Maybe they're going back to the future and seeing if there was an administration tie in back in 2016. Who knows? I don't know. That sounds like a pretty, pretty good guess. But what it suggests is, I mean, if you accept that and Winston, I accept everything Tim has to offer. Sure you do. Sure you do. If you accept that, then you have to come to the conclusion that the FBI believes that Russia is busy, busy, busy with it without Zuckerberg in terms of dividing the country on voting, dividing the country in general. And somehow this big shot Russian guy has something to do with that. We're not out of the woods on that, are we? No, it's spy versus spy. I mean, it's the Cold War that never really thawed. I'm sorry, but we're still in a Cold War with Russia, whether we'd like to admit it or not. We just don't have arms races and, you know, spies being, well, we... But Winston will tell you, we do have arms races. You know, non-proliferation agreements seem to be torn up these days. We're in an arms race, aren't we, Winston? We never stop being in one. Every country wants to have military superiority, intelligence superiority. It's the way that the game is played. And as far as, yeah, Tim's right. The Cold War never really ended. We have, do you think those, what was it, 17 agencies that came out and said the Russians are interfering in our elections in 2016? This was unanimous. Do you think those people went to work the next day, the next year or five years later, and they weren't focusing on Russia and China and, for that matter, everybody else? It's not like we don't tap every single nation's and corporate and J. Fidel's telephone to find out what's going on in their minds and how to have leverage over those folks. And so it's just that if Russia doesn't have a vested interest in this nation collapsing, they get a little bit more power, but what are they gonna do, become the world's policemen? They can't control things in their own yard. Their life expectancy is plummeting. No, in a funny way, they're the underdog, aren't they? Let's see a picture, a map of Russia. They're actually not that, their national product is not that much or their land mass is huge. It covers, oh, God, a good part of the world, actually. I thought what's interesting was they sailed with the Chinese between Hokkaido and Honshu in Japan this week. I don't know if you saw that. They did a joint. I did see that and it was very troubling. There's an axis going on between the two of them, which is very troubling. And you don't know how deep that goes, but that's a great subway, a segue. It's also a subway. Tim, let's talk about China for a minute. China is of great concern because they are also, as Winston says, they are relentless. They have never stopped and now the mask is off in a sense that they're competing and Xi Jinping wants to rule the world. Let's see a map of China. They want Taiwan. They want all the countries around them. They want the Belt and Road to extend all the way to Western Europe. They wanna have influence trade, economic relations and economic leverage over everybody. They were in Africa, they were in South America. Where are they not? And if their strategy is different than Russia's, and I think it is, it's all about overtaking us, completely overtaking us economically. And I suppose I would ask you, where does all that end up? People say that in a few years' time, their GDP will be significantly more than the US. What effect does that have on our relations with them? What effect does that have in terms of our politics? Well, I think Christopher Wray, director of FBI, went into great detail back in July about what are the threats that China poses. And there are the obvious ones and I'll just rattle a few things off. Remember they built up the China Sea with islands so they could stake some real estate claim there and now they, their waters are their waters. And now we're, everyone's in violation of sailing past their waters, which is international water but now China says it's not international waters. So there's a little real estate game there. We have the repression of Hong Kong. We have to build up their Navy. I mean, their Navy is second to none. It's huge. We have the flybys, the warplane flybys into Taiwan airspace on a much more frequent basis. I think 115 of late. So there's one. And then of course we have the report that hypersonic missiles have been launched from space. Now that's, I don't know if that's been fully confirmed or not, they deny it of course. And, but that's a suspicion that they did actually deliver a hypersonic missile. And the word is that it could reach anywhere in the world in 30 weeks. That's correct. And the biggest thing is that there's an agreement not to weaponize outer space. If this is, if their satellites now are equipped with hypersonic missiles that could be loaded with nukes, we've got to, it's the old Sputnik in October of 1957. There's weapons that can reach us in seconds versus, you know, 30 minutes. But remember, there was a report too that they are also hacking us. Oh, well that's- We've known this for some time. They're very good at it. They're good at it. So we have all these different fronts of how China is a threat. So to answer your question, what is their end game? The end game is to be technology superior and economically superior to the United States. It is exactly what you laid out. And they're doing quite well on this. And they've been at it for years and decades. We talked, I don't know, years ago about China's influence and their foothold into Africa to get all the microchip minerals. And they've got a corner in that market more than anyone has a corner on that market. And there's, you know, that's one of the reasons that they suspect they want to go into Taiwan is to capture Taiwan as the number one microchip producer in the world. So Winston, what are we doing about this? You know, it seems to me the old days when we were living under the umbrella of American exceptionalism, that we were the best country, the most democratic country, that we had the best army, that we had the best high moral superiority. Those days are gone. But the question is, what are we doing to deal with China's very, very threatening maneuvers? Are we doing anything? Is Congress able to do anything? Is the military doing anything? You know, Trump organized the space command. That's for all the space cadets in the Republican party, I think. So, you know, what are we doing? We seem so busy fighting ourselves in Congress that you don't hear anything about what we might be doing to deal with China. Well, Jay, my internet connection's unstable. Can you still hear me? I might put my video off because my face is there. But, you know, the, no, the United States is still an incredibly strong, has an incredibly strong military that can dominate worldwide. There's zero question about that. Are the Chinese catching up? Are they pouring a lot of money and resources into it? Yes. Are they a match for America? No. Could one of many nations inflict some serious damage on America or total destruction? Yes. Is it in anyone's interest to do so? No. So, yeah, the Chinese are just flexing their muscles as they develop. They do want to have the same thing that America wants, which is domination, which is influence, which is power, which is wealth. They are building an incredible Belt and Road system. Like you said, across Africa, they're in South America. They're cleverly lending a lot of money to these countries so that they're indebted to them in the same way that the British did 150 years ago. It's all about resource acquisition. And if you're looking for the future, Jay, the Chinese population's peaking of any year now, and there's predictions that by the end of the century, America's population will be much larger than China's population because they're facing a demographic cliff as their one child policy comes to fruition and people just don't want to have any more kids anyway, you're having eight grandparents, well, not eight grandparents, four grandparents per child right now. So, and a lot of those are the male, female, and balance is striking. They're just trying, there's 113 cities, maybe a little more, maybe a little less, in China that have a million people or more. They're really trying to get down their infrastructure right now. They're trying to build up. They're trying to modernize so that when this, you're not making me feel any better Winston, I'm sorry. I asked you what we were doing to counter veil, to counteract these extraordinary moves that China makes every single day. And I mean, if you've heard about this, I'm sorry, I haven't heard about this. Tim, have you heard about this? Are we still living in an exceptional America? I got an answer for you, Jay, because I heard the President of the United States say it yesterday in Scranton, Pennsylvania. And he said, the infrastructure and the social infrastructure bills is a way that we need to pass so we can compete with China. Now, compete with China as if they're already ahead of us. And in many ways they are. I'm not sure I completely think they're way ahead of us, but if they're not caught up, they're just about to catch up and their infrastructure, they're moving technology far in advance of where we're at. I mean, Joe Biden cites it all the time. They've got bullet trains that go 300 miles per hour. Look at their space program now. They're doing things, they're on the dark side of the moon. And they just put in their space station. So they're really trying to show the world what they can do technology-wise. And they want to be a showcase. And we're behind them. Is it legitimate? Yes. It's an accurate statement. It's not just a showcase. They're actually doing these. Doing it, yes. And so I think China is the greatest threat, not Russia. And I think, but here's the positive thing. And that is we still have a very good trading relationship with China. And the more you trade with someone, the less likely you're gonna see a military conflict. You tend not to go to war with your trading partners. And I know we have a lot of tariffs in place. I like to see that settled out. I like to see those tariffs unwound and have a better trade balance with China and reduce the tensions. If you remember, the tensions started to increase. The second Donald Trump got into office. Now, Donald Trump did have to do some things and lay a firm line down. And I respect that. And I agreed with some of his positions, but at the expense of a pretty tense relationship with China is now in place. And that needs to be settled down a little bit. And we need to balance the trade balance playing field so that partners benefit each other. And I think that's the hope for me is that we improve on the trade balance system. Are we doing that Winston? Are we actually improving our relations with China? That tension that Tim talked about seems to me that still exists. It seems to me the tariffs are still in place. Joe Biden has not taken them off. He could, he hasn't. It seems to me that the rhetoric is pretty stressed on both sides. And it seems to me that we're not taking affirmative action to improve our relationship with them. And part of the reason is that they're not in our list of priorities. Our list of priorities has to do with all these internal domestic dispute things and not national international relations. So my question is, what is Biden actually doing aside from aspirational statements he makes in Scranton? And what can he do to actually get balanced with China, if anything? You know this supply chain choking that we're having right now? Where do you think all those ships off of LA waiting to be unloaded are from? We can't buy the stuff fast enough. We can't even, we can't buy it fast enough. We can't even unload it fast enough from China sending back empty freighters. We need to produce something that the Chinese wanna buy. First of all, but you know, the reality is Jay, you've got 350, 400,000 Chinese students studying right now in America. It's not the opposite. They're coming here to learn from the teacher in this case, this is where they're coming to learn how to be, whether it's making something better or better engineers or better, a freer society. They're exposed to all of the ideas that we have here. And in time, those seeds are going back. They're being planted right now. And they may have to buy their time right now, but eventually people will say, you know what, I liked it when I was in Dubuque going to Dubuque Community College because we had our clubs for this and that and the other. And eventually it'll bleed through. China has its own areas of influence. It has for centuries, millennia. I don't think they wanna be the world's policemen any more than the Russians do. This is sort of a task that falls on America, which is reluctant to enforce it at this point. And you're seeing some fallout of that. Eventually, you know, we're sort of becoming chimerica on some level because our economies are becoming so intertwined. You can't, you could pull out all the things from China that we make there, but there would be a world of pain over here. And I think over there as well, like Tim said, good trading partners don't go to war. It's just making sure that we're good trading partners. Well, you'll have to admit there's been more talk about war and more written about war with China now than before Trump and even during early Trump. But my final question and for your final comments though here at the end of the show, Winston, is how concerned should we be that Congress is not addressing this? That Joe Biden is really not taking affirmative steps to deal with it. That Tony Blinken has focused on other things, I would say, and that the American public is talking about politics and democracy and division and the elections and all of those really domestic issues. How concerned should we be that while we are fiddling, our domestic relations and our relative position to war is declining? You know, I mean, Jay, that we are still the indispensable nation. I'm sorry to break it to you. We still are. We have a lot on our plate. Joe Biden has so much to tackle even if he didn't have the last four years to work on just. Okay, let me put it another way then. We're in great risk of losing the right to vote. We're in great risk of having Congress become completely dysfunctional and unable to do anything. Okay, doesn't that ultimately affect our ability to contend with both Russia and China? We've got a lot in our own house to clean up before we look abroad, but we can't. Doesn't that ultimately affect our ability to deal with Russia and China? Absolutely, we've got to clean up our own house here first, but it doesn't mean that we don't need to look abroad and also work on that. It's in everybody's interest to get along, to go to higher standards, to act on best behavior, to stop this war talk. We don't need to be going to war with anybody, China or Russia. These are countries that we need to deal with and work with. If we're going to survive as a species, we have literally species-wide events that we need to. That's totally rational, but the reality is we're busy with other things which are fiddling. Yes, and we are fiddling. And so we got to pay attention to that. Absolutely, Jay. You're hitting its spot on. We're not going to solve it this week, but I'm kind of remaining hopeful because we're becoming a global civilization now and people are needing to step back just like William Shatner did and take a look at it from a larger sphere because what happens in China, they're experiencing the same massive floods and threats to their existential existence from a global climate-wide perspective of nothing else and they're starting to say we can't do this alone. We can't pretend to do this alone. We need to just sort of work together. Hope so, hope so. Tim, where do you see this going? I'm talking final comments here, but where do you see it going? Things are evolving. For example, the country is evolving and when you look again, whatever happens in these elections, we'll live a different country. Who's to say what it's going to be like? That's for another show. But in terms of our relations with these two competitive, contending countries with difficult relationships that we have with them, what is it evolving to? What's it going to be like in the future? Is our relationship with Russia going to be different and how? This is a hard question. And is our relationship with China going to be different and how? Wow, they are different, difficult questions and I'll take on China first and that is it's a carrot and stick approach. I think that President Biden needs to take. Where are the sticks? Okay, if I was the Joint Chief of Staff and if I was Secretary of Defense, I'd be in Biden's office right now saying, Mr. President, we need to get our naval fleet, 15 miles off the shores of Taiwan right now. And we might even have to want to put some boots on the ground as a disincentive for China to have any second ideas or first ideas that they can invade and the United States is a paper tiger as far as a ally. And we need to just have something there that discourages China from making that move. Now it's both a position to take. That's again, that's the stick approach. And then equally, I think that we should try again, as I said, provide more carrots, provide an easing of trade tensions between the two countries. And by doing so, China will see that we are a committed trading partner. We consume more than we sell them by far. So... Well, let me ask you one follow-up here. They say that China sees the disruption in the American society as a great opportunity. What is? And tries to take advantage of it. Same with Russia, I suppose. So query, we have to counterman that. But how can we counterman that in our system? Our system where we have trouble in transferring power. Our system where we have trouble in tying our legislative shoelaces in Congress. Our system when the public has lost confidence in government, even the Supreme Court. China looks across the way and says, those guys, they can't get anything done. We have a huge advantage. We'll move in on them. Isn't that what's happening here? Where does that wind up? It is, Jay. And it does hamper our ability to deal with Russia and China. In fact, Christopher Wray, again, director of FBI, spent another afternoon in Congress talking about the domestic threat that we're currently facing. And of course, I know we could walk and chew gum at the same time, but you only have so many resources and so much synergy on one problem. And this is an opportunity for Russia and China to take advantage of our domestic issues that we're entertaining. And that's unfortunate, but I think they can, this country can keep the two countries at bay, keep them from taking excessive advantage of us and we'll get through it. As Winston said, we will get through this. Okay, I guess that's the bottom line. We'll get through this. Okay, I'm gonna take a nap now. We're gonna get out, I know. I think, Jay, my advice is take a Rip Van Winkle nap. And wake up and hope things are better. Choose something pretty far out in the future. Thank you, Winston Wills. Thank you, Tim Eppichella. This is politics for the people. Thank you so much, you guys. Aloha.