 With the same ladies and gentlemen, we are now moving on to the next panel discussion of today. The topic in focus is the journey to perfection. Real-life stories on success and failure of the women leaders. Allow me a moment before I welcome our panelists. I offer my sincerest apologies, ladies and gentlemen, for the delay. Let's welcome our panelists for this particular session. Please put your hands together for Ratchna Panda, our country group head communication and public affairs bear India. Up next, please welcome Ruchika Bhattra, Vice President, Marketing and Communications, Ericsson. Please welcome Amrit Ahuja, Independent PR Consultant. Please welcome Sudha Sareen, Senior Vice President, Marketing and Communications, Power to Smith. Please welcome Deepa Day, Head Communication and Sustainability, Nutrition and Special Projects, Hindustan Unilever Limited. Let's keep the claps posted. Thank you very much. And with the same it's time to welcome the moderator for this session. Please welcome our Tarun Deep Singh, Chief Growth Officer, the 23 walks exchange from media. Shall we begin? Okay, lovely. I think everybody out there can hear me, right? Okay, great. So a little depleted panel, but I think we can blame it on Diwali traffic. But good evening, everyone. Lovely to be here. A perfect panel actually for, that chose me rather than I choosing it. They say perfection is not attainable, but if you chase it, you are on a journey of excellence. And I cannot be much more equipped to have such tall words as such a panel of excellence that is here with me. So allow me to quickly introduce everyone here. We have Sudha. Hi, Sudha has been, is the senior vice president marketing and communication is powered to SME. And I think over the years, Sudha has held leadership positions at some of the top and large agencies, like Ipe and Helen Lothal, Good Relations and Ketchum Sampak. So welcome, Sudha. Lovely to have you. On my left, I think the lady needs no introduction, Amrita Hoja. She right now is consulting brands like UNSF, Michael and Susan Dell Foundation, and many more. And I think her passion is about teaching me and everybody else, including some nuances about PR and experience here. She's also held a very leadership roles across agencies and lovely to have you here, Amrita. And yes, on my right is Ruchika, somebody that I've been chasing all my life in terms when she was heading comms at Samsung. But now she's at Ericsson and she's heading, she's vice president marketing and comms at Ericsson and previously has worked with large corporates like Tata Motors and Samsung as well. So lovely, thank you. Thank you, everyone, to be around. It's a perfect panel. I think the first question that comes out is, you all had great journeys. What have been the life lessons that helped you carve this successful path? And what were your professional experiences while doing that that helped you overall in your personal life? So Sudha, why don't we start with you? Thank you, Kishan. Can you hear? All right. So, you know, it's an interesting question that you asked, Tarendi. However, what I'm gonna see here is there are no absolutes. Priorities change. You begin in your 20s, your 30s and then you're in your 50s, goalposts keep shifting, priorities, attitudes keep changing. So whatever I say, maybe in hindsight, but actually I'd like to look at another way. You know, when I began, maybe it was about getting the job done. It no longer is. Maybe at that time, it was about the paycheck at the end of the day. It no longer is. Things change, things shift. How do you engage with stakeholders, organizations, colleagues? We'll actually possibly get enriched by your experiences along the way. There will be weeks and days of, let's say, bad experiences. Whether it's not getting credit to getting ignored, not getting the right paycheck that you believe you deserve. All of it is there. But all feeling you're getting shafted, it's actually how we respond or how we react to these experiences that really define us. There's not single person sitting here in this room, including me and my esteemed speakers and a person here who hasn't had those days where they felt, oh my God, that's not a fair deal. But it's really how you respond, how you react that'll actually change the way you address life experiences or bad experiences or good experiences, so as to say. So some of the things I'd like to really leave you behind with is three things. And this is taking away from what I've learned along the way is get comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's something that's going to stay. Learn to adapt, to change, that's one constant. You will come across through your entire journey. And finally, stay relevant. That's really up to you. There will be challenges, there will be days of boredom, there will be days of annually. It's really how you continue to respond and stay relevant that'll help you carve your path. And finally, and the most important, I think, is have courage. And courage is going to come up in some of the other answers that Tarun shared questions about, and how important courage is. These are really simple steps. They've enabled me to remain determined, undeterred, goal-focused, moving towards what I want to do and what I want to take away from my professional journey. And I think most importantly, and I think most important is don't try to be superwoman. It's all right, you don't have to bat every ball that comes your way. Learn to drop some that are not relevant. And that's all that I have to say, and I hope that's been relevant over to you, Tarun. Thank you, sir, thank you. I think lovely, I would definitely say you all three here are superwoman, but interesting you said being comfortable with, or getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. Sumbrit, anything that you would like to talk about the whole journey? Yeah, I think Sudha said it all. I can only connect to dots when I look at my journey of 30 years being a comms professional. So I think when I look back, there was one thing that worked for me, and that was, am I answerable to myself and am I comfortable with what I'm doing? So the first phase, I mean, I divide my career into three phases. The first phase was in my early 20s and 30s, when I was a young mom, and I took 10 years off to look after two children. And I always thought I'd never get back to work because who would hire me? But when I went to sleep at night, what I wanted to answer was, am I being a good mom? And I think that kept me going. And the next phase was when the kids started going to school of, do I have the courage to pick up my career? And those were days remember that there was nothing like women taking a break from work, or work from home, or anything. But I had the courage to go out to people and say, you know what, this is what I bring to the table, and give me an opportunity. And it's very interesting, when my younger child started going to play school, I just walked into an office close by to my house and said, do you have a job for me? There was no LinkedIn, nothing. I mean, how do you look for a job? And it was a hotel, and there was somebody who owned the hotel he was walking by and he said, come to my cabin. And I went in and he just figured out smart woman. So he said, come from tomorrow. I was so excited because yes, somebody had hired me, having no clue of what I was going to do. But I think you just take these small steps. And the reason I did that was because this was close to my house, I could walk and I could be home when the kids would be home. But no looking back after that, there's always providence working. And yeah, somebody told me within a month, you're wasting yourself here. Z-networks getting launched, why don't you go and meet somebody who's looking for a communication person? And yes, I worked for the most happening thing at that time, which was satellite television, launched all the Z-channels, attended a page three party every day. And yeah, I had a lot of fun. And then the third phase I think was after that was I moved to agency because I thought my agency people were having a lot of fun. And I did 23 years at MSL 2020. And for all the people in this room, I can tell you that your maximum learning, your relationships all come from agencies. And the third phase was of getting back into a corporate. And I was at Facebook as communication director. And I think as you grow older, you start thinking, am I going to, do I really have a purpose in life? And that's what really started bothering me. And I think I would just tell all young people who are much more aware now, do have a purpose because that's your guiding light for your career. And I just left everything behind. I said, I will no longer work on the capitalist world because enough of working for the capitalist world and helping them make money. And I shifted to the social impact space. And it's been very fulfilling because every night when I sleep, I feel good about what I'm doing. And also, this thing about being uncomfortable and don't just be comfortable, as Sudha said. For me, it has been about, I will not do just communication because I celebrated my six year birthday last night. I've partied till four in the morning. So I might look a little zoned out. But I think the energy that I have got because I'm not doing only comms because I said I will lead my life with a purpose. And with a lot of help with mentors, I have a purpose statement which is that I will have brands and people live impossible dreams. So yes, I work with brands on finding their impossible space of reaching out to their stakeholders but only in the social impact space. I say no to a lot of businesses that reach out to me in the capitalist world. So that's where the purpose really helps you guide the light. And second, I do a lot of work on mentoring women. It's been a lot of hard work to become a coach but it's just very fulfilling because I know this is my second act and I was just talking to Ruchika. We'll all probably live a hundred years old. So most of you will have dual careers. So start preparing for them now. I'm just looking at the hindsight and saying, this is what happened to me and probably this is what's going to be the future. So I think that was what, and I connect the dots and those are my learnings. And just one thing, be uncomfortable, be ready to learn. If I look back every few years, I went back to a university and studied. At the age of 44, I went to Harvard and I had a blast over there. At the age of 55, I went to the Ashoka University to study about the social impact sector. And it was great living in a dorm and just being in a university and forming a completely new network. I think the power of networking is something that most women do not realize because we're not naturally inclined to be great networkers. But I think when you go to your university, you do something different. You form a completely new network and that opens a lot of doors for you. So if from my life journey, if I can say that there are the learnings, I think three things. One is be comfortable with yourself and you sleep at night. You've had a bad day, but are you comfortable with what you're doing? If the answer is no, then think differently. But if it's yes, just get better in doing. Every year invest in your personal development, which is like go to university, go to a conference. And ideally it should be not in the area of your work because otherwise you're just, we are like frogs jumping into the same pod. And third, do think that you are going to live probably a hundred years and are you going to be having the same career or is it time for you to start re-skilling and thinking about what next? So I hope those are things that are going to help you. Lovely, thank you. First of all, happy belated birthday of it. We will raise a toast to that. So great, purpose, success. You've had an illustrious career, Ruchika. What happened most of your professional successes that you were able to have an impact on your personal life, if you could help us talk about some of them? Professional successes in personal life. Okay. In a way it's good that you've changed the question because I was wondering since they have already covered a lot of what I wanted to cover. But yes, I mean something that really impacts you as an individual is considering the number of hours we spend at work. There's continuous learning both ways, right? I mean, you were at the end of the day, one individual and what you learn at work, you do carry that learning back in your personal life. And likewise, how you evolve as an individual does impact your work as well. And one of the things that really resonated with me when Sudha mentioned was that, you're always learning and adapting to new environments, right? Just in your personal life, you're dealing with new situations all the time. It's the same thing at work as well. You have to have an adaptive leadership style. You need to be able to manage the different situations that kind of come up. So that's one thing which I think is very important for all leaders, whether it's male or female. The other thing that I think is very important in your personal life as well. There are a lot of things which require you to be very resilient, right? The situations may not be as comfortable all the time. So how can you be resilient and deal with those situations? And that learning and that ability to cope with that situation, knowing very well that you have to find the answers, I think that same thing can be applied very much at work itself as well. And then the last thing I think that I would say to your question is, at home you do rely a lot on your family, your relationships and all of that. In office what you do learn from there are the ability to work with different teams, right? Work with your team, engage with different stakeholders and actually drive them towards a successful result. So in my view, this whole concept of being able to work with teams to deliver results is the most important thing when it comes to really kind of working very successfully. So these are the three things that I would really talk about. One is being able to deal with change. The other one is carry your relationships and be able to deal with teams. And third, be resilient. And continuously focus on developing yourself which is something that both the ladies have mentioned before but you do need to continuously learn and develop yourself if you want to stay relevant. Lovely. And I like to stay with you and have the conversation going further. So while you talked about these things, I mean, and I was thinking and somewhere it is that how important is failure, right? And it's not that we succeed every time in our lives and professional careers. How important do you think failure is? Is there an incident that you can tell us where failure motivated you or got you to do something different or I mean, just look at things differently. I think my team sitting here will bear out with me. The way I look at it is that, you know, either it's even if it's a failure or it's a success, I think what's more important is that you do analyze what you kind of pick up from there and move on, right? It's not really going to, you know, change your life in a very radical way. Even if there is one, let's say a bad article which comes out or there's an event that doesn't go as successful as it could have gone. I think the important thing is to learn from there. What could you do better? Even when we do a very successful event, I think, you know, our team, we always kind of get together and see what we did very well, what we can do better even for next time. So for me, it's not the end of the game, right? You just kind of learn from whatever it is, whether it's a failure or a success. So that's my approach a little bit different. I knew that you will ask me this question, but really when I was looking back, I didn't really think that there was one specific thing which I think was such a failure that I could, you know, really talk about. But yeah, sure, we reflect on it. Lovely, lovely. So that thinking that failure question to you, look at it, I'm not going to say that, okay, you've had failure or not. I think all of us had bad piece of coverage is all through our lives. But for the young ones, right? What would you say when they encounter failure, what would you be your tips or what would you like to tell them? So I would just really say, how do you define failure? What is failure? I mean, getting a 75% in an exam is that failure? You know, so it's really about how do you see and recognize failure? I mean, if you really look at it in terms of societal terms, it's a stigmatized word. From childhood, we've seen failure has been punished, success has been rewarded. And that's really where we actually then begin to respond to a similar situation. However, if we look at each one of us in the room and I'm not even talking of large failures, I'm talking of small failures, each one of us has possibly not got the desired exam results as we wanted. Maybe the sports coach didn't pick you for the sports team. Maybe you didn't perform in the play and weren't on stage. These are all small failures that we've experienced. It's really how you respond to that. I mean, I'll give you something else. There are diets that we are constantly on which constantly fail. So what about that? I mean, so the way I see it is inevitably at some point of time in your life, you're going to come across failure, but it's your response to that. How do you respond to failure? We tried, we didn't succeed. Is that going to make you fall apart? That's the question you need to ask yourself. For me, everything that you see in your professional journey is an experience. Some experiences bring you pain, some experiences bring you joy. And once you've established that failure is just another experience, it's the take away from that. That's actually going to help you learn, learn how to deal with it, learn what you take away from it and will then establish all your future experiences. So how do you reframe it? How do you redefine it in your head? Today, if you see it, when I began my career of failure was a stigmatized word. Today, when you see it, it's part of the equation. Most entrepreneurs will tell you, it's on the table. They will experience failure sometime or the other in their journey. Before they get their businesses right, that entrepreneurial DNA will relook at it, retweak it, maybe scrap it, restart from it, till they meet success. So it is today a recognized and expected dynamic that you actually come across in your work life. In fact, there are some who take it to another step and say that if you haven't failed, you haven't really achieved or experienced what real entrepreneurship is. If failure in your mind is another experience, as I said, don't confuse it with a sense of self-worth or a personal sense of loss. If you keep it at an experience, the takeaway from that will be hugely enriching. Okay. Great. So taking just cue from that, I'm not gonna use the word failure now. So setback, right? And I'm sure life throws a curve ball sometime or another. So any anecdote that set us or set you on a learning curve? Yeah, so I think all the inflection points that I talked about in my life were about related to some kind of a, not really a failure, but something that was not going really well. But I am gonna give a concrete example of failure because we are in a room full of communication people. And I think that's something that stuck with me and I keep revisiting that. So yes, this is several years ago when global CEOs coming into the country was a very, very big thing because things were opening up in India and I won't name the brand because of confidentiality. But I had a global CEO visited, I had a media walkout. There were 80 media people who were waiting for him and because of some logistics issue, they all walked out and there were only three international press people who sat there and listened to him because there was big news involved. But can you imagine my state and my team state and your agency, you're not the person within. So what that taught me was, don't sign up for something that you don't agree with. So that was a situation where I had really got pushed by the client that this is what the flow of event would be. He would go plant a tree, he would go visit a center, then he would come to media and I kept saying that's not going to work but I was pushed into saying yes and I did say yes. So where did the fault lie? The fault lie because I agreed to do what I didn't believe in. And I think that taught me that only the paranoid survive. And the lesson I learned from that and how I learned that was because I had a very good mentor who I still have and he was at my birthday party last night. After the whole event happened, I called him crying and he didn't take my call. And when I met him face to face, I said, you didn't take my call. He said, I sleep at 8.30, so I didn't hear your call and I hated him. But when he met me face to face, he said, you screwed up. First, you did not argue with the client in this case and you signed up for something that you didn't believe in. Second, you did not sit with your team and go through like 30 checklists or 40 checklists that had to be done. So learn from this. And you know, that's been such a powerful lesson because really what he did was he pushed me in the corner to introspect and understand for life that do not sign up for something that you don't believe in and only the paranoid survive because if you own something, have sleepless nights. So since then, you know, how are small something that I might be doing? That incident runs in my mind and I start thinking what can go wrong? And I'll be paranoid about whether it's an interview, whether it's a panel today or whatever it is. Like I was parting till four in the morning but I had this panel in my head. So I did not drink at all because I did not want to hangover. I mean, I had a glass of water and told everybody I'm having vodka because I didn't want to land up with a hangover over here. I wondered my thoughts clear. And second, yes, about traffic, about how am I going to get here? All that was done. So I think just failure is a very powerful thing of how you learn from it. But remember two things. If you have your purpose defined and you sleep at night saying, am I doing the right thing? Only then you'll be able to navigate failure. Otherwise sometimes failure can really set you back. You know, there's a beautiful stories of entrepreneurs, resilience, you know, which we hear a lot but sometimes failure can really break you. So just work on yourself of, you know, some defining moments and making those your guiding principles. I'm gonna stick with you. You mentioned mentorship, right? Now that is something that I think you've been at both ends of, right? From having it and also imparting. While I'm completely proud of being part of an industry where women rule but what can the new age agencies or even some of the legacies want to to get more women in the leadership role? How do we help them realize and utilize their potential? So I think before we even get into that I just want to throw a stat. The McKinsey Institute says that if we want a gender equal world, you know, we really need to invest in them. And just India if it invests in women in the workforce, our GDP will be rising to 750 trillion by 2025. And to do that, you know, since I work in the mentorship space and I've also worked in agencies and corporates, I think just having a designed mentoring program is something that every organization needs to work on. You know, I currently work with some, you know, some corporates who are just starting to do this. And it's amazing to see that they're seeing the power of mentoring. And, you know, just mentoring also has to be done at several levels. You know, everybody has a picture of a mentor of like somebody who's going to be old and going to guide me through my principles, but also reverse mentoring. I have to say that I've learned everything on digital because I have a couple of very young people who, you know, we have a relationship of I will guide them on their career navigation and they will guide me on how to navigate digital. So whenever I put out an Instagram story I actually have an Instagram guru. And if I haven't put a story out or I haven't done a reel, I'm nudged by her saying, hey, where's the reel? So today morning also was like from the birthday party, nothing has gone up. Oh my God, I'll get a nudge. So let me put something up at least. So I think just seek out. If your organization is not arranging for mentors, seek out mentors. People who've done well, definitely want to take some young people in their, you know, care and help them navigate and guide. So I think what really worked for me and it's mentoring. And, you know, mentoring and the skills that you don't have, find some younger people also if it is because they're far smarter and they're more like digital is the key thing right now. So, you know, how do you make sure you learn some of those things from them? So yeah, I would just say every agency, every corporate needs to have a structured mentoring program only then you can get more and more women to tide over work and not fall out because even now in spite of all the systems, if you look at data, women still fall out of work very, very quickly. So that's my take on it. Lovely. So, hey, hi Diva, why don't you come up? Come join us. So continuing some, do you want to stop? So Ruchika, mentoring, right? But I think somewhere the onus also lies with senior leaders like you all and somewhere me comes in between two to actually drive that. And what can we actually do today for a lot of young women who today are looked upon to do a lot more than men are, right? Both in the personal and professional capacity. What do you think things like that could be taken care of? I think a couple of things there from me. Most important is I think giving or actually women taking the opportunity and the organizations giving women an equal opportunity to try and kind of get to whatever they want to do within the company, right? So it's a question of having that opportunity. And I would say for young women, it's very important also to really raise your hand, to know where you want to go and actually try to make an effort to get there. The other thing which I would say is that, all men and women as colleagues need to be a little bit conscious about their own biases as well, right? I mean, it's pretty easy to say in a men, heavy leadership organization that we are a very diverse and inclusive organization. But I mean, are we? I think that's where we really need to question that. If you don't mind my saying that, I think people need to be educated quite strongly on where the biases are, what are stereotypes? I mean, we think we all have the answers, but maybe not, right? So I would say that organizations have a responsibility to give women an opportunity. We need to support women even at the mid-level so that they can actually get the support they need to grow to the leadership roles. To younger women, I would say they need to really raise their hand and see how they can really develop themselves to take on leadership roles. And the last point would be to be very aware of, what are the biases that are there within you? I mean, whether it's a male colleague or a female colleague, what are the biases that are there within you and how can you overcome those biases? I think that's where I would. Lovely. So Deepav, if you're ready, I can jump right to you. So you've been in some of these large corporates and we are talking about leadership role for women. So what are your take? How can we educate them or make them realize their potential? My apologies to these audience got caught in the horrible traffic being in the car for the last two and a half hours. So my sincere apologies, looking forward to this whole conversation. Yeah, so leadership role for women. I think women need to, of course, I mean, I haven't heard all the other panelists have just said, but of course women need to believe in themselves that they can get there. I think that's the starting point. In my life, I have felt that what worked for me was that you prepared very well. You know, if you are going to get a chance to get into a meeting, if you're going to get into the same table at the CXOS, then you need to prepare yourself to be able to manage that conversation well. So I think prepare, work smart. Don't work hard, work smart. Understand what is going to actually make the difference because we tend to take a lot of roles in our lives. You know, we just want to be the domestic goddess. We want to be the goddess at work. Don't do that. Work smart. Pick your battles. And yes, have a lot of fun. I mean, party hard because nothing is promised. So who knows what's there tomorrow? So enjoy what you are doing. Contribute, learn. And yes, if you make a mistake, just admit it to yourself and continue with learning more. And that's what I would say. Lovely. Do you just looking at from a point of view of over the years, how leadership or organizations can today get more women onto leadership roles? Today, there's a lot of conversation around this issue. But around 2008, 2009, there were a bunch of us, actually three of us who went and had a conversation with NASCARM and TAI and said, you really need to start having some conversations around women. So there were three of us and we said, all we want is use of your conference rooms and let's build your community. And we spent three years zealously building them a community which reached about 170 women. And finally, we handed it back to TAI, which runs as their women thing now. And I have to say, it was on the second Saturday of every month that we met. And the kind of energy in that room, it was absolutely mind blowing. The kind of energy, the kind of exchange of opinions. And you know, there's this whole conversation about how women don't support women. That's not what I saw. I mean, the queen bee syndrome is possibly made up by men to disparage a bunch of us. But it isn't what I saw. It was just amazing. We began to mentor, we tried to build networks. And you know, a lot of it came from, because at our time we got married, we changed our names. None of us had the elbow bending whiskey club or the golf club that you know, we networked on. We had kids, we worked them hard and we went home. So this is where we really started off saying the idea is to enable them to build networks. Mentoring began because it is lonely on the top. A lot of us don't have people to go to and discuss navigation or advice or saying, I'm struggling with this. You know, how do I put it on the table? How do I bring it forth without sounding hugely aggressive or just chippy? You know, how do I do this? And that kind of stuff helped hugely. Having said that, there are a couple of other points that I want to make. Who's made the rules? The rules have been made by men. I mean, let's just get that all of us. The rules were made by men. Even today, they're talking to people like us to say what can we do to build about an equitable world? We're not the future. We're not the guys on the shop floor. We're not the guys who need that, right? We've pretty much navigated our way, stumbled our way through God's being kind. We worked our butts off, all of that. I mean, go back to the people to whom it makes a difference. You want to bring about an equitable, fair world? Listen to them. Second thing, and my colleagues, you know, have both spoken about it. Don't have preconceived notions. Don't go by myths. Don't assume the number of assumptions you have people making about women is hilarious. No, no, no, she has a small child. I don't think she'll be able to travel. She's getting married. You know, the next few months will be very difficult for her. She just won't be able to give in. It's a pile of nonsense. Ask them. Please be fair. Go to them and ask them. Can they do this? Would they like to take this opportunity? Is that something they'd be interested in? Help them navigate the space. Give them that option, right? A couple of other points, which I, while I was writing this down, you know, and Deepa spoke about being prepared. Locke, right? So here's something that I want to see. The deterrence comes from an external world which is society, preconceived notions, preconceived myths. But it's also about our own beliefs and what we hold ourselves to. It is systemic, but you know, it's not too late. We're all recognizing it. There may be half measures, but we'll get there. A lot of the youngsters are possibly going to hopefully see the world that we all wanted to change, you know, for women or working women or aspiring leaders. And I spoke about the vegetable queen bee syndrome, so I'm not going to speak about that. I mean, the only thing I'm going to say is that while we're talking about an equitable world, an equal opportunity, I want to drive home the point for equal pay for equal work. I think that's something that's had my goat forever since I didn't have gray hair. It still has my goat. You know, also the other thing, and you know, understand that women out there are not necessarily having to be looked at as second earners. They're coming in, they're working, they're sweating, they're achieving and they're putting themselves completely out there. So equal opportunity, equal pay is a right that they all have. And that's, thank you. Just to add on to that, you know, I think Sudha very, very well articulated it, but I think since I work in the social impact space and there are a lot of women entrepreneurs work with women. So the three things that I've learned from them and I would like to share those here, which is that there are three levels if you have to make change for women, more and more women to have equal opportunities, it's got to be research. There has to be a lot of research, you know, whether it's equal pay or whether it's, you know, how many are really reaching the top, how many are falling off work, you know, you have to get that research in the front of policymakers so that they understand because, you know, yeah, we have this great maternity policy of six months, but what I'm hearing is a lot of people are not wanting to hire women because of that policy. So you have to enable policymakers to have the research and data to understand that what they should be doing. And the third, of course, I think very important that the things that, you know, so that spoke about that ask women, do they really, you know, will they be able to do it? Like, are they going through child care or are they going through marriage or whatever it is? I think it's about finding policies and finding that empathy to get them to work with them on those life changes moments because women, let's face it, you know, we have to bear children, men can't do that for you. So there are going to be those moments, but how does an organization be empathetic and desire those? And I'd like to add on that, you know, in my agency days, I'd done a research on what really drives women away from work, especially young moms. And it was not that they wanted to be home with the baby, what drove them away was a bad boss. And I myself was surprised that, you know, if your boss doesn't understand and is not empathetic about that life cover of yours, you can just completely be ruined and you can fall out of work. So I think just a lot of stress on research, data, policies support because policies will only be designed when they see the data and research. Yeah, yeah, yes, all of that. I think I just wanted to add that because I've been closely working on these areas and I really feel that, you know, the more data you look at, the more you are able to look at, get great insights. I'm sure, I think I totally, totally conquer with it. Can I just add something? Yeah, absolutely. So while I was listening to the two ladies, I just realized that a few things that I would just like to bring to the table. I think research is very important, but I would start with opportunities, provide opportunities first for the women. I have the privilege of working in an organization that had, in 2001, started something called the project Shock Shakti. Shakti is basically women entrepreneurs in the rural India and today, and they are being empowered, trained to be self-sufficient. And today we have 1.6 lakh Shakti Ammas all across the country. The second thing I will think of is safety. When women come to work, they need a safe environment. And we have recently started a couple of projects where we are bringing women into areas which were earlier very difficult for women to come and work in. For instance, the shop flow, the second is the frontline. So we have actually encouraged women to come. We have provided policies and support and enhanced their career opportunities. We have also been working with various women groups to ensure that they can come back from their maternity leave, et cetera. So providing gig opportunities. Like sometimes, like you said, we have to bear children. And once you have a child, then most mothers will know that it's so difficult to have a full-time job. So how can we make it still relevant for them and provide them with gig opportunities for them to come work on projects and also have a home life? The other thing I feel for organizations, it's important to have policies, policies that will be supportive of women as well as men. I mean, there should be policies for everybody, but I think policies for women are very important. And finally, having role models. Like again, I'm privileged to work in an organization that has had role models like Lina Nair. Lina started off in Hindustan Unilever as a management trainee. And she went up the ranks and she became the global head of HR. And today she's the CEO of Chanel. I mean, when you have role models like that, bring them out, talk about them, allow them to engage with a set of individuals who are also aspiring to do something different in their lives. And I think the whole combination of all these things would probably have a very winning outcome for women. Totally, I'm with you. I think we're done really, really out of time, but still think one important question that's left. And I'm gonna get my order out here for this. One piece of advice or one suggestion you want to give young women leaders today. One, okay? I'm going to take three. As I said, prepare, work smart, have fun. Lovely, Ruchika? My one advice would be have a dream and kind of go all out to achieve it. That would be my one advice too. Lovely, thank you. I'm with you. Just learn to be uncomfortable in your skin and go back to re-skilling each time every year if you can. Great, lovely. Suda, one advice. So I'd spoken about courage some time ago and the one piece of advice I would give aspiring women leaders is have the courage to be disliked just a little bit. Lovely, thank you. Thank you all. I think I concur with all four panelists. We need to rewrite the rules and I'm in for you. Thank you. This was an enriching session. I worth the traffic jam that we all came through. So lovely, thank you. Thank you. I hope you all were lovely audience and I hope you all enjoyed. Thank you so much.