 When did you actually get interested in computers? Oh, yeah. I guess it happened. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Back in probably 81, maybe back in 81 in the Bay Area, all my friends had color computers, TRS-80, you know, VIC-20s, everybody had computers. And so finally when I conned, I talked my data into getting a PC. The original IBM PC, dual double-sided disk drives, color monitor, you know, it was like this $5,500 computer that now, you know, you can't even give away. But you know, I was the man on the block with that thing. I could run Temple App Chi and, you know, CGA Color. And there was this kid up the block who had a 300-bot acoustic coupler modem, and he would call local Bay Area Bolton boards. There's only probably, in the Bay Area, you know, millions of people. There was probably only 30 or 40 Bolton boards back then, way back in the day. Everybody dialed in on their apples. And he opened up this whole world of, you know, the online community and the information that they were trading and talking about and the idea that, you know, you could sort of virtually, I hate that term, but, you know, virtually talk with people and know people all around the country. And as soon as that happened, you know, bam, I opened her. I was hooked. And ever since then, I've been really into communications and technology, talking with people around the world. It's great. I mean, you can have friends all over the world. You go to a city to visit. You know people. You get information, gossip about things that just don't ever hit the newspaper. You know, I find newspaper very limiting. I don't watch TV, maybe a couple hours a week when I'm bored at night. But, you know, you can get all of your informational needs on the computer in a much more contextual and in-depth method. And, you know, I mean, that was sort of, that was sort of my, I don't know what to call it, fuck. My point when I realized things were not the way they were. I mean, that was not the way things were presented to me by the establishment. As soon as I started talking to other people, frankly, on the computer where age wasn't a consideration, your parents wasn't a consideration. You know, that was the eye-opener that, yes, you can be on equal footing with anybody in the world. And since then, you know, I've viewed society differently than Joe Sixpack. And so it's really the community and the culture that attracted you? Yeah, the culture is very, the community is very, they're all very intelligent. They're all motivated, driven, they're inquisitive. They love to figure out why things work, how they work. It doesn't have to be just computers, it could be car stereos, it could be machinery. I mean, a lot of these people, you know, are into like rock climbing. So they're all into the technical equipment and the expertise or ski equipment or whatever it is. I mean, they love to know why things work, how they work, get an understanding of not just, you know, I punch this button and the light goes on. They want to know the theory behind, you know, why is the light going on? How long will it stay on for? What can I do? Can I get two lights on? And when you surround yourself by those kinds of people, the possibilities are endless and you always are having a good time. You feel self constrained or limited. So when you're in college, what sort of stuff are you doing? Are you hacking yourself? Oh, no, I was running a Bolton board in college. It was kind of tough because every year the number would have to change as you change dorm rooms. But I had this international Bolton board. My phone bills must have been three, fifty, four hundred bucks a month. Had... We had connections in all over Europe, Canada, Mexico, all over the United States. You know, I'd be getting messages from people. And back then, you know, the Berlin Wall had just recently fallen. So we're getting chatting with people like the first couple Bolton boards in Russia were coming online and joining some of these kind of underground networks. And, yeah, it was really good fun. And of course, during the day, you went to classes and just went to classes during the day. So, you know, other people, you know, played basketball and made pottery or whatever they do in college or drank, and I ran a Bolton board. What are you doing now? Now I pretty much do security consulting, limited penetration, auditing, external threat analysis. Some awareness training will go to companies and tell them what their threats are, what they should be concerned about. There's so much misinformation about the quote, hacker threat, when in reality, the largest, biggest, most credible threat is your internal employees. And if you can overcome that misconception, you can really learn how to spend like your limited bucks getting the most protection. So, I do that. So, I mean, how much do you think the corporate world knows about hacking and computer security? Do you think they're pretty advanced? They're aware, oh no, I mean the Fortune 500, they're aware, and they, the Fortune 100 definitely have, it's the middle-sized companies that don't have the budget to have a big IS staff. I mean, for them it's do we get two print servers or do we get a firewall? I mean, it's limited budget, but they're just as much at risk as anybody else. And so, it's in those kind of situations where they're frightened, they don't know what to do. I mean, if it's a virtual startup company and all their property and their equity is in intellectual property and they can't protect it, that means at any given time their whole company could collapse if it was stolen by a competitor. And it's kind of an interesting situation. And you no longer consider yourself a hacker? Well, yeah, hacking is a, hacking is a bad term now. Instead of the media just calling computer criminals computer criminals, they call them hackers. And because of that, legitimate hackers now are considered computer criminals. And so, yeah, if you want to get a job don't call yourself a hacker, basically. It's what I've learned over the last couple of years. So, you know, it's just the way things are. Great. Do you want to say anything about Kevin Paulson? I'm trying to think of anything interesting going on. Probably not. That's cool.