 Hey, Steve Maieti here. Welcome to this amazing, amazing interview with Zan Perion. If you don't know who Zan Perion is and you're in the men's development industry or looking to better yourself as a man, especially when it comes to understanding the power of your masculinity and the power of the feminine, you need to know who Zan Perion is. Now, this is a podcast I recorded years ago. In fact, two years ago, of course, obviously with Zan for my own podcast. It's separate from the 21 convention podcast, but very similar. And we talk about a lot of good stuff. You know, Zan is a guy who's been teaching for almost 20 years now. I've known him for eight, and he's always had a consistent message of being yourself, being a proud man, not being ashamed of being sexual, not being ashamed of desiring the feminine and really getting to understand both. He's a philosopher. He's a coach. He's a very, very wise man, author of a book, the alabaster girl. You should pick it up. And also more importantly, he is going to be a featured speaker at the Miami 2016, 21 convention. You can sign up for that or find out more information on the speakers for that upcoming event in Miami at the 21 convention.com slash events, or you can just go to the 21 convention.com and browse through whatever's going on and click the events button and get all the information and details you need. Guys, this is an amazing podcast. If you have any questions or comments, leave them down in the comment box down below. We'll get back to you. And then also, if you have any questions about how to become a part of 21 university or get involved with the 21 convention, you can also click the links just below this podcast. Let's enjoy this very special interview with Mr. Zan Perion. All right, here we are with Zan Perion. What is happening? You are a man, you like I've been working in this industry for a long time, but you have been in it longer, far longer and have carried a consistent message, which I think is absolutely important about beauty, about seduction, about women. And you have never wavered from that. And it's truly like a lighthouse. You know, I don't know if you know this because I think you're so out of the scene. But I mean, you're one of the few guys that I think has a message that has always been about beauty, sex, love, connection, and all the right reasons. So, man, yeah, tell us about like how this all started. Well, boy, how did it all start? Well, man, I've been doing this a long time, as you said. And obviously it started when I was very young, like I've been in love with the idea of women and trying to seek out the beauty of women and the feminist spirit for so long that, I mean, I've, you know, I've essentially created my life around it. And everything I do has been in the service of that. So, I guess the short answer to how it all started is like, I have been in love with women since it's just about the only thing that I've ever really, really, been drawn to and the energy of women. So, it's kind of a natural thing for me to just keep talking about it and be excited about it, I guess. So, you have said that your passion, your drive in life is, I could be wording this wrong, but is women, is the pursuit of women, the pursuit of beauty, explain a little bit more of that because a lot of people when they talk about passions or their drive, you know, it's all this other stuff. But for you, yeah, it is the pursuit of that beauty. It's beauty. It's like, I have, I've had this conception for years that the, we've forgotten beauty. I mean, even the philosophers, you know, you think, you know, they went through all different phases of philosophy. And there was a great stage of philosophy where the aesthetic was a dominant type of philosophy and people tried to understand, you know, what is aesthetics? What is beauty? What is harmony and symmetry? And there's very few philosophers talking about aesthetics today because of our consumerist utilitarian drive and, like, you know, we're entrepreneurs today as opposed to thinkers and philosophers and artists. I mean, like all the, all the, you know, all the weekend events we take are how to be a better business, you know, all the books we buy are business books, how to be an entrepreneur, how to do these types of things. And that's what we call success in this modern age. So I think we've forgotten the ability to slow down and contemplate beauty and seek beauty. And so, like, there's a misconception out there that I'm, that Steve, that I'm saying that all women are beautiful no matter what. I'm saying, I start from a position that feminine grace is beautiful. Doesn't mean all women are beautiful because there's a lot of, you know, insecure, catty, bitchy women just like there's a lot of insecure catty, bitchy men. And so, but to start with the default of saying what is beautiful in my career, in my relationship, in this woman I'm meeting, start with that default until proven different as opposed to the way around. Yeah, no, man, it's interesting. This is something that you are, I take it as a guy that, you know, sell everything and travel the world, you know, one of the mottos that, gosh, you know, some of the guys like Jordan who works with you, Canute, have stayed at my place on like, Breathe. Man, no, great, great people, you know, and I'll tell you this, like I've met very few people in the production industry that you really just kind of can have a conversation with, you know, because a lot of times it is like, this how much money I make, these are the women that I have and this how cool I am, all this, you know, this validation of the societal definition of stuff, but none of that from those guys and just hung out and had a good time. And man, you know, we're just, you know, you couldn't get around to the topic of beauty with them. Everything was through that, that lens. But you're one of those guys that's kind of like out of the scene. There is so much, but I'm sure you've seen it, there's so much anger, there's so much hate that revolves around this whole thing of femininity and masculinity trying to connect. But instead we're living in this disconnect. What do you say to those people that, you know, are, you know, are women, they're a little bit out of touch or men who are a little bit out of touch with that and don't know what that beauty is? Yeah, you know, both sides are blaming the other and the men are saying the women are too, too controlling and too demanding. And the women are saying the men are too soft and too acquiescent, I guess you could say. So there is a disconnect today that I don't think we've, I don't think we've ever had it like it's before. And I think it's, you know, it's the culmination of our consumerist age, which we, you know, went from free love in the 60s to the 70s, which is like psychedelic to the consumers 80s and 90s, where we have it all. We have multiple choice, you know, like you can walk down any grocery store and you can see as far as you can see one type of, you know, potato chips, for instance, there's, you just can't choose. So we, and we have that same kind of short attention span, even in the things we read, nobody really reads books anymore. We read articles on, you know, little snippets on Facebook and we have the same kind of short attention span in our relationships. And, you know, it's like it's that, it's, it's a frenetic, you know, twittering our lives in every respect. It's like small little pieces and snapshots of everything going everywhere all at once and a lot of noise and very little signal. Man, it's so interesting because I've always thought that you know, we're so ruled by consumption, we're so ruled by looking through the filter of economics as to how we're supposed to have love, how we're supposed to connect and how we're supposed to have emotions, but we're not in touch with what we were truly born to live as, you know, whether that in any sort of way, you know, just, I was really thinking about this the other, the other night in man, like I said, I got a ton of questions more than anybody else. And I've interviewed a lot of people and I, the, the feed that I actually sent out to say, Hey, I'm going to interview Zan was to about like 200 people and I mean, I'm lucky if I get through 5% of the questions on this. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a lot and they're actually pretty complex and there's a lot of guys who are on that and actually perhaps we should talk about what that is. Okay. But, you know, in this whole like consumer based culture, man, if people just got past that like that blame that problem outside of themselves, what they're trying to control. And what I feel, man, just connected with somebody had a conversation with a human being and got in touch with that moment. I think a lot of, a lot of things would resolve themselves for you in that, because, you know, I rarely have had the opportunity to talk to you and it's an honor actually to interview you. But man, that sort of moment, that sort of moment where we have that human connection, whether that's with a woman or a man, what does that mean to you? You know, that function of being social, that, that point where we have that empathy. Well, you know, I think this is, we pursue the wrong things in my mind. I think, you know, I mean, we've, we've, we've all heard of articles where they interview people under deathbed and, and there's, and they say the thing I regret the most is that I work too much or that I didn't spend time or I didn't concentrate on my relationships, the people who love me and the people I love. And their only regret is, is that kind of, you know, waste that life in the pursuit of whatever, like, and, and, and I, and I've, and I just do believe that the, the only thing we'll remember when we're really old is the girl that loved us and the girl, and the girl that we loved or, or the girls we've loved and the girls who took care of us and, and you cared if we were sick or sad. And we're going to remember that those moments. And so for me, to maximize those, I mean, the whole ours of the messages is, is a message of adventure, of, of curiosity, of casting off from the shore and letting go, you know, like, and, and really letting go and, and seeking adventure, no matter what the cost and standing on the earth as a man again. So it's a very solid, very affirming message for men and it isn't a therapy. It's not, it's not like, you know, hand holding or babysitting or anything. I just not, and it's not sitting in the force beating drums either. It's like, it's like, you know, in a circle and hugging each other, it's like, it's a, it's a strong sense of we're all, you know, we're born nervous and confused and rejected by teachers and the kid down the street when they wanted to kick the ball with them. And they said, get out of here. You, you lose your kid. So we grew up with this whole thing around, you know, hanging over our heads. And this is a call to you to action to say, Hey, maybe we don't have it figured out. Maybe we are nervous to talk to girls. But boy, we're sure going to show up in this world, no matter what, no matter what that takes. And so it's, it's a, yeah, it's a, it's a very, it's a good message and, and, and a well rounded one. And one that women say is good too. And it isn't the kind of message that women think that they want, which is a nice sensitive guy who's given them lots of massages. That's not what we're talking about at all. It's talking about a man who's, who has, who stands on the earth for this two feet says, this is how I will be a leader in this way. And I adore you. And I'm going this way. And I want you to come with me. And as opposed to following her around, like, like we do in this modern age, right? Yeah, no. You know, and I actually think that it's so interesting with the whole seduction scene and industry, the pickup scene. It's really, you know, it's all about being alpha and being a leader and all this sort of stuff, but really you're playing so much to the image of BS cultural idea of what women and men are. It's just a subservient or, you know, it's, it's so not alpha, ironically, you know, rather than just really pursuing what you want rather than going with what's inside of you. You know, you, you play to just these images and ideas and archetypes and all sort of stuff. So sell everything that you own and hit the road. Where did that come from? Well, this is me. Like, I'll tell you, I'll tell you very quickly because like people have heard my story before. I grew up in Northern Canada in the forest. Like my formal education ended at 13 years old. And I was living in the forest with, you know, no running water, electricity, this kind of thing with moccasins on my feet and an axe in my hands. And running through the trees. And I literally had nothing. I had, I remember living in a cabin by myself when I was 13, 14 years old with grass on the roof, a tiny small little, you know, cabin and log cabin. And I would sit there and all I had was a hand made bed with a comforter on it and a little desk and a kerosene lamp. And I sat there and I would write in a journal when I was a kid, when I was those age. And the simplicity of that, I think, has never left me. My short stories, I ran away from that with no education. I somehow ingratiated myself into the corporate world. And I became very high placed in an international company. And I was in charge of the, you know, the commodities for the company. I was in charge of the IT because I'm a computer nerd, like self taught. I learned all this myself. And I was a very high placed in an international company at one point. But, you know, I used to sit at the boardroom and look around at, you know, the things we're tackling that day for 12 hours. And I would think, I'm only here for a paycheck. Just that's the only reason I'm here so I can have the illusion of a free life and fun on the weekend. And so I thought about it for many years. I was in the corporate world for a long time. But the real me and the real authentic me is that kid sneaking through the forest. That's me. And so I sold my apartment. I gave all my possessions away. Didn't sell any of that. I just called up all my ex-girlfriends and come get whatever you want from my place. I gave it all away and I reduced myself down to a carry-on bag and only that. And for the last 10 years, I've been basically a carry-on only and I've lived all over the world and traveling the whole time. And I feel it's authentic to me. I'm not saying everybody should quit their job and go cast off and like, you know, sail the world. But for me, that is my authenticity. I'm this kid sneaking through the forest with, you know, thinking about, I don't know. And I feel like I'm going back to that or I'm heading back to that, back to that simplicity of that. And it's more, it is who I am. It is the fundamental nature of who I am. And so when did women come into play for you? You know, when did you start to notice that beauty and that desire? Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I've always liked girls. I remember looking up skirts when I was crawling underneath the kitchen table when I was a little kid. I've always been that guy. But I always thought that I was going to live in the forest in a cabin with a rifle and run a trap line and be alone in the forest. I never, you know, my teen, teen years, that's all I wanted. And then it was about 18, 19 years old. I stuck my head out of that forest and I, and I, and I saw the first big city I ever saw was Vancouver. I lived the way up north from Vancouver before, you know, in more than wilderness. And, and I liked girls and I was drawn to the energy of girls. But because I had no social training, I guess you could say, and I was, you know, kind of had the solitary weird non normal going to school or university or college life. I didn't really understand. And so I, I came out of there and I would like girls and I would talk to girls completely nervous and shy and insecure and think there's no way to like them. But I'm trying to get up my nerve because I was delighted by them. But I was insecure and shy and, and needy, fundamentally needy. And so I spent my early years from, you know, 19 years old to get to my twenties extremely, extremely insecure and needy and crying over girls who I thought were the one. So yeah, I had a, I've always, I've always liked girls and I've been banging my head trying to figure it out all these years. So when did, as you say, when did it all switch to you being the guy that, I mean, right now you, you, I mean, travel the world, but you have, what is it, Casa, Amarata, in Bucharest and just you have this amazing lifestyle. I, you know, and you used to, used to have a place in Austin. I remember whenever I'd run into, I do not know if those women are still in your life or whatever. But I would always tell people, I was like, look, you know, the most organically beautiful women I've ever seen around one man that were just cool, like great women. I mean, you would always be talking to a woman and like never talking to the, like I'd be a guy. So, you know, but they would be, they were just such rich women in life philosophy, everything about them. When did that switch? Like, when did you become that guy that, you know, you went from a guy who was nervous and insecure about women in your 20s to somebody that was able to communicate fluidly, honestly, you know, and have many women around you in your life, you know, living with you, traveling with you. Yeah, yeah, it's true. And, but you know, like people say, what was that epiphany or what did you read or what was that moment? And I tell you, I swear, it's been incremental. It's been, it's been, there's never a point to look back and say, aha, that's when I started to understand support to really get it. And I'll tell you this, I've been teaching and do lecturing and doing these seminars and writing for years and years about this kind of stuff. And this only subject I talk about is women and beauty and the concept of our relationship with women. And yet it's only been in the last couple of years, I'm thinking, that I just kind of sat back and took a look around and said, gee, you know, like, I have such a, such a, for the first time, a first time I felt, I have such a, a wealth of experience. Like, I, like that is, that is, it's quite, it's quite unique. I mean, I've done nothing but talk to women and, and, you know, spend time in the energy women. I've gone out to night clubs four nights a week by myself in all my twenties and thirties. Like I've, I've, I've dated girls, I've, I've, I've all stripes. And so, so it's just recently I'm realizing, boy, you know, like, maybe because I'm getting older, I'm starting to think, you know, there, there is some kind of wisdom that I've accumulated, which kind of shocks me because I always been feeling, all these years I'm thinking, I'm just this guy like everybody else and trying to figure it out too. And I still feel that I still, I don't know, I still feel like there's a, I don't know anything compared to like the total knowledge out there. But I feel like, wow, I like in almost any circumstances, I have something to say because I've seen it before, but because I've gained a lot of, not because I've constructed a lot of stuff, but I've just seen that experience before. I've seen that situation before. I've seen a girl like that one before and the thing she's about to say. And so it's strange. I've sat back a little bit and said, well, wait a minute, like, I do have a sense that I've, I've, I now have something to share. Can you imagine that? Now only in the last year or so, I feel like I really do have something that really powerful to share. And I didn't before. And it's always a guy I figure no. You've, you've also said before that you, you have no teachers throughout your life. Yeah. That you've never had one mentor to look towards. What guided you through this? You know, if I can talk to a 23 year old guy now and tell him the things that I've learned and share some of those things, I wish I would have had that message when I was that age. And instead I spent all these years trying, failing, trying, sort of succeeding, trying to figure it out and just, I just stayed in it. I stayed in the trenches. What guided me honestly is my, and believe me, I've seen some, some, some really not, not nice women in my life. Okay. There's some women out there that are, just like there's not, not nice men. There's some women that are very petty. And I've seen that, but it's never ever, it's never made me defensive against women or an angry at women or, and I've seen the fundamental volumes of rejection as much as any guy believed me. I've seen it. And yet I always had this, this underlying belief that there's some kind of grace in women that, that needs to be elicited and, and a guy with the right kind of strength and standing, standing in a certain way can, can bring that out of her. And so I think honestly my guide has been, I say, I've been saying for years that my, my only mentor, my only teacher has been women. I've sat at the knee of women, asked them a million questions, but realistically it's the essence of women that has taught me something. I think not specific women so much. Well, yeah, no, specific women taught me very specific things, which is fantastic, brighter women than I am. But it's the, it's sitting and listening to the, the essence of feminine nature and what it creates in the heart of a man, a warrior and how necessary it is for that man to be a warrior. He needs, he needs the, the, the feminine inspiration and grace to be that guy. Now this actually brings us to a question that one of an Amaradi actually told me to ask you and he said, Hey, you know, I have, and this guy, amazing individual, you know, I know him very well in his fifties. His whole life has been with women. He speaks your language too. I mean, it's, it's like, it's pretty amazing. But he said, so what do you have to say? What brings us back to that beauty? What brings us back to that pursuit, that hope, that the desire to be with women after we've been run down, whether we've had, and this could be for many different men, but as he was bringing up to me, he's like, what about the times where you've been, you know, attacked or have the restraining orders or you lose all your money or, you know, they just send your life into the gutter. What brings us back to that hope? What brings us back to that beauty and that, that need to connect with women in that way? You know, I think it's, I'll tell you what it is. It is the rare woman that every guy can remember encountering. There's been, every guy has had some woman in his life that he looked at, wow, what a beauty she is. What a, what a, what a life-giving energy she is. And, and we know this. I'm convinced that most of the listeners have experienced, or will experience that in their life, where they, where they run into a woman that, you know, we've got this business transaction relationship-y thing where we're saying, okay, what do you can do for me? Where have you been five years? And what does this mean to you? And are you looking at that girl? And why are you looking at that girl? And you should be looking at me and all this kind of like tension and, and there's just, there's, there's, there's the rare women out there who all they do is give. They give and give and give. And their soul, their soul desire is that you in their presence feel taken care of and nurtured. And when you have that, when you discover that it breaks your heart, it breaks the heart of a man because he's so rare, especially in the West, it's so, so rare. When you discover a woman like that, it makes you turn your eyes to her and say, wow, this is something I haven't encountered or encountered very rarely. And, and, and so for me, it's the feminine, it's, it's, it's the feminine grace that pokes through all the darkness. And it's rare when you encounter it, but I've seen enough of it and wrote an entire book about it. And it's rare enough, just like it's rare that men are truly masculine and standing on the earth with all the charm and respect and, and non-controlling, but just, but still have the strength of what we used to have. So I, there's, there's a hope in there because there's a call back to beauty. And I think, I mean, my whole book is, is, I mean, there's, there's nine chapters in it. The first chapter is called the way of beauty. And then it goes into seduction, the way of the natural, the way of women, the way of relationship, the way of men, the way of, of love. And the last chapter is called the same thing as the first one, the way of beauty. So the book ends at that book is because we're seeking beauty, we're seeking relevance in our lives. That's why we do anything. So we're trying to understand what, you know, anything like we want relevance and, and, and to sit in, in the essence of beauty is, is everyone's heart's desire. So I think, and the earth is very much missing it. And I think famine and grace is what we're missing. The earth has a, I'm talking about this, but the earth has a, has a heavy masculine energy around it right now, like with the, the wars and catastrophes and, and the, and the trouble and women have this human's interaction on earth, like the culture. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's a heavy, it's a heavy culture. And it's a, it's an antagonistic culture and a, and a misogynistic culture and a mistrustful where dating is like 80%. I think I like this guy, but I'm not sure my girlfriends don't really like him. Right. So I can't give myself fully there because my girlfriend says, you know, and so it's, we have this, this on we, I guess you could say in this, this, this distemper, I guess. And, and, and, and this, and so I, but I do believe that there are some women on this earth and there's some men on this earth that are, that are, here you go. They're going to call forth and, and, and do the damnedest to change it. That's what I do believe. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. It is a man, do you think that any man can achieve this? Or is it just the select few? I think, you know, I'll tell you this, Steve, I think any man can achieve it. But as they say, many are called fewer chosen. Right. Any man can, but very few will step up. And everybody, everybody nods their heads and says, you know, I bought the self-help book and I bought another one and I took a seminar and I've got the answer right there on my shelf. I paid, I paid a, you know, $29.95 for the answers right there. So I did my part, but, but, but it's going to take strong men to say, no more, I don't want any of this, no more of this self-help nonsense and this go stand on the earth and like in all our insecurities and all our, our brokenness and go stand forth. And so, yeah, any man can, but very few will. That's the truth. So what is the difference between this misogyny and flirting or playing or being the kid that's looking up women's skirts, being the man that wants to feel a woman, feel a woman in every way that, you know, his urge, his sexual urge, his being desires? What is the difference between that natural calling, that natural state and this misogynistic mindset? I'll tell you this. And it's a difficult concept, but everybody understands it. As soon as I say it, it's this. The men who really have women who adore them, there's, there's a type of men we know that the women say, oh, that's just him. He can get away with anything, with anything. He's like automatically the women say, he's included in our side. Do you guys, you guys have to date us and you have to buy us drinks and stuff like that? This guy, he's already included on our side, right? We know this. And, and, and what those guys have is the only thing I've ever been trying to write about, describe the whole hours and hours about trying to describe that kind of man as opposed to say some guy who's trying to get phone numbers and that kind of stuff. What is the essence of these men? We say confidence, we say, we say all these things, but what is that? And, and I, to say it short, I think the men who women absolutely adore, who, who get away with everything, who have women in their lives, who women love to the day they die, have two qualities, which answers what you just asked me. They have two qualities. Number one, they're a father figure leader who stand on the earth and say, here's my boundaries, here's who I am. And, and this is how, this is how I want it to be, you know, in a full, good, strong, respectful way as opposed to, uh, ultimately better like this. They have this strong leadership quality that, and they tell women, uh, they call women on their bullshit and they say, that's how you go and no further. This is how I want it to be in, in, in full, in full invitation and welcome. At the same time, that guy is a little boy who needs, who's, who's, who's, who needs washing behind his ears and his shirt collar is not adjusted just right. And hey, make sure color is not adjusted just right. But it's, it's, he has both qualities where he's, he, he, he shows up in the lives of women as a father figure who's a leader and also a little boy who needs to be taken care of. And if, and, and, and these guys who are, who are kind of misogynist and strong ultra-confident and, and, uh, these kinds of things never give a woman the ability to bring out their feminine spirit, which is a life-giving taking care of spirit. They're, they're, they're, you know, they're out there confident in the battlefield and they're confident in the tent as opposed to relaxing and, and, and, and being quiet and the quiet mode. And it's, it's hard to describe in a very short thing, but those two qualities is what sets apart men who have women in lives. I mean, women who adore them and, and, and say beautiful things about them for the rest of their days, whoever they marry. They say, well, that guy was one of the guys that touched my heart because they have this strong quality that they will not compromise. And at the same time, they're, they're a little boy who, who, uh, doesn't know how to take care of himself. And the man has, go ahead. I was just going to say, Steve, because imagine this, that appeals to both sides of the dichotomy of women, which is Madonna whore. See, see, which is the complex of women. I was in an art gallery in Belgium at the time and this woman had these paintings and they were, and they were, they were diptychs. So they were black and white. They're all women, but it was black and white or red at the top and white at the bottom and all these different halves and violent and innocent on different house, these paintings. And I said, what does this represent? She said, you know, this represents me as a woman. And I remember her saying to me, she says, men want women to be either the, a slut and dirty or this perfect, uh, mother, uh, companion. She said, but I am both and every woman is both. And so a man that has both those qualities appeals to both sides of women. And usually a woman gets a guy who is a bad guy, who's a lover who comes into the, you know, riding into town and rides off in the sunset. But they can't get him to commit, settle down, or they get a guy who is a good companion, good for, you know, he eats popcorn and watches movies and massages or lots. And he's a good father and a good husband. But there's no sense of ravishing at him. So they get one or the other. And this is the, this is the cry of women. This is the, the, the longing of women. So, so the whole idea is to how, what is the quality of men who are both at the same time? Yeah, you know, I always think, you know, men and women are just in this like starved, repressed state of their masculinity, their femininity. And we forgot how to follow our urge or even think that it's okay, you know, to even have that urge. And so now it's a checklist, you know, now it is that commodification. Now it is that waning of scales, you know, it isn't falling into yourself. It's trying to define yourself by all this little stuff around you. And I, you know, constant stream of, you know, as you said, tweets or whatever, whatever stuff out there, I'm actually going to get into some questions here that some people asked you. When is it you being a man of relationships and beauty and connecting with women in many women? What is it that allows you to know it's, it's time to go, it's time to end this relationship. It's time to move on. That's a good question. You know, sometimes we're floating in a boat and the waters deep and the boat is comfortable. And we kind of like are hanging off the side. We're waiting for another boat to come along. But until another boat comes along, we hang onto this one. You know, in other words, we stay in this relationship. How many women are in relationship thinking, is he and asking, are we ever, are you ever going to marry me? Like, you know, I'm, I'm getting older and, and I have this desire, I want to get married and have children. And the guys, the guys, the guys is saying, well, I don't know, you know, someday, whatever, when truthfully, you know, that's never going to happen. You know, she's never going to marry her. And so when it breaks up, eventually after four years, and she says, I wasted four years of my life. And, and, and I was misled. And so this, this whole thing is like, is like, how do we be in a relationship and be truthful to ourselves, no matter what the cost, no matter what we're about to lose. And we're so afraid to lose that girl that we can't bring ourselves to say, it's not going to last forever, but you're a good cook and, and I like sleeping at your place and you're good and bad. And, and so I'm going to keep this going, keeping the illusion going. And so, um, so I guess the answer to the question is, is, um, always be speaking the truth of who you are, no matter what you think you're going to lose. So really at any cost, at any cost, the true, I guess the true, I don't know if you would call it way or, you know, the highest level or the greatest expression is to fully express and not limit by the world around you. And I mean, geez, man, what a tough freaking thing. I mean, how many times if love in, in, in the beauty that just, you know, when I first interacted and I guess saw beauty in sex, I could not let go of it. And then, you know, I thought it was everything else. You know, I thought it was like all this stuff of like, you know, all the pickup stuff, right? You know, we're going to, we're going to do this and yada, yada, yada. And it's going to be this big thing. And it's kind of like novelty idea of it. But there was always that moment, you know, where you would see and actually talk about this with my buddy Jim, who's an Amarata, Amarata, a long-term guy with you, but a woman's face when she orgasms, when she's with you, or even if she's connected, even if you're in rapport, if you're in this emotional web with her is so different than the face that you saw when you just socially matter, when you superficially matter. You know, she could be, as Jim always says, she could be a stack of bricks. But when you're connected with her, it's this, it's this beauty on a different level. And once I got a taste of that, that was like, I had to have it, which made it so hard to walk away. Or, you know, I relied on drama to break up the relationships or anything like that. Are you somebody that in time with all your experiences been able to, you know, easily, or I guess more easily, walk away from that beauty and be alone at times? Yeah, like Casanova had this same thing that I have, what he would, he would go to Warsaw or he would go to, you know, London. And he would be, he'd meet a girl, an actress or something. And he would basically start to, you know, put her in a house and see her every day for three months. But when the time for him to come to go, which always did, because the wind would call his name, he would, he would, he would be so torn because he didn't want to hurt that heart who loved him. He knew he had to go because the call of the open road was stronger than the call of staying with her. And he was so sad and torn because he wanted her to be happy because he cared about her as he wasn't just the cad that, you know, wrote in the town and like, okay, I'm going to stay with this girl for a few, a few months and then see, I'm out of here. You know, he really cared about her. So he would do his, his damnedest to find her a boyfriend, find her another guy that, you know, to take his place or find her a theater engagement. She was usually an actress. You'd find her something so that she was okay. And only when she was okay could he, could he, could he bear to leave. And I completely understand that because you think about the women who you've had in your past, they're not with you anymore. And all you want, all I want is that they are happy with a good guy, that they're, they're feeling that, you know, so, but I tell you, it is, it is, and, you know, I'm in a relationship now. I have this, my, my girlfriend I've been with her almost three years now. And we live together. I mean, we travel the world together and she's by my side constantly when she goes to visit her parents for Tuesday, I'm like, I'm completely lost. And, but it isn't because I set out to have a girlfriend. I mean, for the, for the, you know, eight, nine years before that, I didn't have a girlfriend. I had girls. And I had, you know, I had, and I had great relationships with absolutely fundamentally beautiful girls that, but they just were not the girl that I'm, that, you know, for me, without analyzing that or trying to construct that. And so it's, I don't know. It's like, I've always stick to my, I always speak my truth no matter what the cost, no matter what the cost. Man, that's interesting that, and that's something that, you know, you said there's no turning point or this epiphany or whatever that had happened, but man, what a trait to develop. I mean, God, I cannot, I mean, I try and live by that trait and I screw it up. I'm lucky if I get, you know, a little bit of that true authentic, you know, this is who I am. This is how I'm articulating myself, you know. Ah, man, hats off. Well, I, I tell you, Steve, because, because I was not that guy, like in my twenties, I was like, you know, I learned how to manipulate a situation the way I wanted it to be. Right. I spent years trying to be this seducer guy, you know, I mean, like that's what my whole thing is like, I'm gonna, I can talk women into bed, I can, I know how to weave a web of words that is impossible for women to resist, blah, blah, blah, blah. And right. And I'm good at it. I can talk to women and they're go, huh, I can short circuit her brain with words. I've done that my whole life. And this last period of my life, the last years of my life is to strip all that away and say, the greatest seduction is just to speak truth and let it land. Hit the ball in her court. We asked nothing in return, but speak great desire and, and not trying to adjust things by the way I say things or, you know, and, and so I speak very plain these days. And so, so you say it hot, you know, it's amazing thing to go from that, you know, insecure guy to the guy who just speaks truth. It's been my journey of, of trying to find out what is the authentic guy who I am and what is it that I want and then just express that to the world, express that to women and let the chips fall where they may. And it, and what you learn is that is the, that is the essence of true seduction to speak it is what I want. This is how I want it to be. Yeah. Man, I totally agree with you because seduction, seduction, I think the feminine side to seduction, I think true seduction is neither masculine or feminine. It's when it unites and becomes a new thing, but the true feminine trait is that choice. And so as a man, you know, you put something out there, you put something out there, whatever that is, in any form, but the most beautiful thing is when she actually chooses to give herself to you, that's when the, that's when the fulfillment comes. And like I said, it could be with emotion or it could be with actual physical, you know, it could be sexual. That's where the energy really transforms into this awesome experience. So, exactly. Oh, no. Hey, I want you to talk, man. I was just going to say that answers the previous question where the guy said, you know, how do we still maintain our, our, when we've seen such drama and bitterness and dysfunction, how do we still maintain it? Because what you just said, which is the, you know, there are those moments in time, you said it when you see a woman's face, which is in orgasm, which is a different face. This is something that you created with your, with in her mind. Yeah. Like it's something that like we think, okay, well this woman did that. No, this is something that you co-created with her. You co-created that face. Yeah. You co-created that. And it takes a man of strength and of giving empathy and, and, and to have that for women to blossom into that. So the whole point of this is everything is ugly out there. There's ugliness in our reality shows and it just, it's all temporary and it's, it's a kitsch and it's, there's no beauty in our architects or anything anymore until we, until we set forth to elicit it from the world and to create it. No, not create it, uncover it where it is. Right. So women are jaded. Women have had dating trouble all their lives. They look at you, okay, I'm suspicious of you, Steve, because I was, I was betrayed. I was abandoned. I was abused in my childhood. What, and how, would you, how are you going to treat me? And to step forward and say, let's have a different agreement. You and I, and say it, not just like trying to prove I'm a good guy, but to say it, I want to have a different experience with you. And this is my, this is my promise to you. I will never, I will never mislead. And I'll tell you exactly what I want. And so to step forward like that, women are waiting for that. And, and it, it, it uncovers again that, that little girl beauty she used to have, which she was running through the fields. And so it's the whole point of everything we're trying to do is to, to find those moments by uncovering it. And it is, our job as a man to, to, to, to seek it out and call it forth from women with our words and say, this is how I want it to be. I want, I want, show up in your feminine grace because that's how I'm going to see you as opposed to trying to manipulate it and adjust it. And you see, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that being said, when you uncover that side of the woman, the trust, you know, the woman who has had abuse or trauma or something that is, is keeping her blocked. When you uncover that, that little girl, that side of her that may not have come out, you know, in 10, 15 years, what do you see? Because it's, it's a different thing. You know, a little girl does not have a sexual urge, a sexual drop, but that a woman, you know, when you let that out of her, what's the difference that happens? But see, she still has the spirit of adventure and running through the field and picking flowers. Sure. Right. Yeah. And, and it's cliche and it's whatever. But I tell you, women, women don't believe in that dream anymore. They used to believe in the, in the prints that they were going to marry on a white horse and sweep them off their feet in a castle. They used to dream of these things. They used to play with their Barbies and dream about that, those types of things. And, and then they meet men, the men of modern society who are a bunch of little boys who were trying to like pick them up and trying to get them in bed and trying to, you know, and high-five their buddies. Yeah, she was easy. So, so it, you know, so they lose hope, they lose, they lose, they protect themselves, they're guarded, they're jaded, the girlfriends surround them and corral them and, and, you know, and make sure that, you know, no one's getting into this, our circle. And, and when a man shows up and says, and says with his words, let's do something different than that. I know you've been, you've seen these things in the past, but I'm going to see you as a true beauty. I'm going to look at you with my eyes and you're going to listen to my voice and the vibration of my voice is going to say, every time I see you again, I may never see you again ever. But if I do, I'm going to see you as a true beauty. So I want you to show up as a true beauty every time you see me. With other guys, I don't care what you do. You do it, you know, be a jealous of them or upset at them or, or angry at them or betrayed by them. But I will never do that too in this circle here. And when a man steps forth and says that with that kind of authority, women will trust them the rest of their days until he proves something different. So, so I think, fundamentally, that's what we're saying. Like, you said it, you said the beauty, and I get, I get a sense of what you told me just now, Steve, that the woman that makes you stop, and I think most of the listeners out there is a woman that says, I'm going to give you my trust. I'm going to give you of myself. Please don't trample on it. I'm going to, I'm going to open myself up to you and, and, and when a woman does that, now that's a, that's a profound thing that she does. She's saying, I'm going to give you my, I'm going to open my heart up to you and open up my ways and open my body to you. And it's a profound thing. And a lot of guys say, ha, ha, I got in there easy. Right. High five buddies. But it's, it's, it's those moments when a woman does that, where you see the true beauty of her, that you say, wow, there's something strong in this world. And I'm only going to, I'm only going to seek out those moments until the day I die. That's all I'm going to seek out is those moments. It might be with one woman the rest of your life. That's okay. You're still seeking out those moments with that. You're still seducing that woman all the days of your life and looking for your beauty in her every day. You know, what I think is interesting is so many women will open up themselves, you know, sexually, emotionally, but holding back something of, you know, their, their mentality or certain emotions or certain parts of their sexuality that they, they, they keep, you know, from other people, you know, because they don't feel comfortable in men, of course too. And that is one of the big tragedies that, you know, when I think about the bad relationships that, or the relationships that I had that ended poorly, that, you know, may have had, that all of them had beautiful, beautiful moments within them. It all came down to that, you know, because we did not connect on a complete level. It's so sad, you know, when I talk to women, you know, now just conversationally about whatever it's almost impossible for me not to talk about sex, the level of sexual frustration, the level of not knowing what it is, you know, I'll ask women and I hate this because it's almost like a routine, but I just ask it because I want to get to know them. I mean, I don't know them if I don't see this side, but I'll say, well, okay, when was the last time you were kissed and felt like a complete woman, an entire, when was the last time you were touched or talked to by anybody, even a friend and knew that you were the woman that you, you knew you were when you were a little girl, you know, or that you feel is deserving of all the stuff and they sit there and look at me with like a blank eyes and I'm just like, man, that is so sad, because you're, you're attractive. I mean, to some may be like really, really attractive to everybody or, you know, by society standards and some may be attractive in a very unique way, but to somebody, you're beautiful and you are not feeling that beauty. And that is, man, that is such a sad contradiction and a representation of the culture that we live in, you know. Yeah. And what a thing to say to women. What a thing to say to women, as opposed to, you know, do you live around here and how long do you go to university, right? What a thing to say to women to talk on a different level and say, wow, there's something beautiful about you and I don't know what it is. You're intriguing and I don't know what it is. And everybody, every guy's complimenting your hair and every guy's complimenting your eyes, but there's something else. What is it? This is the true essence of who you are. Yes. And that's what I want to know. I mean, that's who I want to talk to, but every man's different. Exactly. You may want different things. Okay, there's a question here that says, you have a motto of ease and delight. Yeah. Now, what happens when you're not feeling that, when you're nervous, you've had lack of sleep, you're having a bad day, you know, like it's not so ease and delight. How do you present yourself out to the world? Well, you know, it's like, you know, we think that one of these that guys think that they're going to wake up one day and they're going to have, they're going to have some inner peace. They're going to reach some kind of state of grace where they're always in a good mood and, and they're always in state. Right? The thing that we say is, is, is we're going to get in a state and we're in, we're going to have this confidence and an easy way of moving through life. And that's not the way it goes. The way it goes is we're always going to have to stay connected to that part of us, you know, stay connected to the part of us that others comment on and say, you know what, you're very much this, say, wow, instead of we say, well, no, leaders don't know the real me, but the way people compliment us in the comments they say about us, you're so generous or you're so, you're, you're always so giving. We say, oh, you know, it's just, yeah. And, and, and stay connected to those part of us and realize that those are the moments and that's the way others people see us. So it's always, you're never going to wake up in the morning and go, okay, I haven't figured it out. Never, never, never. You're always in wake up and scratching your head and, and, and, and scratching your belly and wandering around the room. Okay. I'm completely lost today and, and I, and I feel confused and I talked to a girl last night and didn't work out so well. And yet the concept of using the latest to say that, that as long as you're taking one step forward and you're always on that journey forward, you can forgive yourself everything. You can forgive yourself everything and, and not be too hard on yourself and say, you know, at least I'm at least I'm doing my best to step forward in the, in the, in the, with all the light that I've been given. I'm moving forward in the light that I've been given. And, and so that concept of using the light is, is to say, you're always going to have to recover, recover, recover. So you'll feel upset about something or a girl say something not nice to you, or you're going to have a bad day or something goes wrong at work or your boss yells at you. And all you can do, those things are always going to happen. All you can do is recover. Your whole life is going to be a, is, is going to be one long session of recovery, recovery, recovery, recover back to that state of grace, recover by consciously saying, by consciously saying, okay, using the light, life is what it is. And consciously recovering and it's going to have to do with it. You can have to do it all day long for the rest of your life. You're never going to be jumping into this mode. And, and anybody who's confident or, or easy, has an easy grace about them is because they're consciously, consciously choosing to say, okay, and I'm going to step, step back and look at myself. I'm confused right now or I'm nervous and my hands are sweaty. And that's okay. I'm going to observe myself. So how is it that you actually go back to that? I mean, do you, you, how do you take time for yourself personally? Well, I've been saying for years if you, you know, if, if you would just spend time with yourself every day. And, you know, when you wake up in the morning, for instance, sit on the end of your bed for 15 minutes and just contemplate and, and ask yourself, who am I? And what do I want? Who am I? And what do I want? If a guy would take those 15 minutes and we will spend 30 minutes watching a sitcom because, you know, inflicting through the channels like this, because we, we can't be doing nothing. We've been taught since a young age. You can't be doing nothing. You have to be productive. You have to be doing something, always filling your time with karate lessons or, or, you know, filling all your evenings and then we rush, rush, rush, rush through the days and nights. And, but if, if, if a man would just pause and take time every day to be still and just sit in the energy of himself and say, who am I? And what do I want? Without trying to answer the question, just asking the question, who am I? And what do I want? How does that feel? If we would pause every day and be still, you reset yourself like a checkpoint in a, in a video game and you can go back to that and say, well, you know, here I am. This is what I wanted. And it moves you forward in a, in a, in a, in a sense of awareness and openness and readiness for opportunities that come your way, as opposed to rush, rush, rush. I got all these emails I got to do and I've got this, this to do list and I've got to, I've got to install this, this other product, productivity app. Maybe that'll make me more productive. How many, how many people have like 10 productivity apps on their phone, on their phone, right? So it's, and you try them all and nothing makes you more productive. So instead of saying, I have to be more productive. Instead of saying that, say, I have to, I have to scale it back and say, who am I in the calmness of who I am and what do I want? That's where everything flows. That's where I read an article recently that it isn't in, in, in boredom. When we have nothing to do, we're stuck and we're just, we're boredom that you start thinking about the greater questions about our place in the universe, for instance. And when you're like, rush, rush, rush, rush, you don't think these big questions anymore, these big, these big thoughts anymore. Yeah, I actually think our natural states, I mean, God, if you look at it, if I try and see sex as the truth, right? You know, that's where I see the absolutes of what we really are. Whereas if we're kind of like looking at society and trying to determine sex, we come up with all this stupid stuff about social value and, you know, I don't know, we, we missed the, the human to human connection from it. But man, I really think that how we were born to be was very simple, very, very simple. That's for sure. God, we were not meant to be inundated with all this stimuli. And it's so, it's such an interesting thing. I'm the, I, for this podcast that's different, but I'm the host of the 21 conventions podcast, which has like a good mix of dating people, diet people, health, fitness, mentality. There's a lot of people who are into the whole life hacking thing, which is so bizarre to me because you're taking this idea of, you know, paleo lifestyle, of eating how we were evolved to eat and sleeping how we are evolved to sleep and all this stuff. But then we're doing it so we can be the most efficient in this culture, which is just so far. We were not meant to be working this much. And yeah, actually, there was a guy who gave a speech on this that had a lot to do with the, the anthropology of people. And it was like, man, we talked to people for like an hour and a half a day and sat, you know, for like 90% like we were stagnant for 90% of our activity. And I just thought that's so interesting because how our brains were formed, how our emotions were formed. And of course we can do all this awesome stuff. And clearly we're not going to go backwards, but the standard of what we need to be going for, you know, to get our emotions in, you know, full order, our mentality, our urge for sex is so much less than what we think. And because of that, we're looking at this exaggerated culture to fulfill it, you know, it's, it's just so crazy. Yeah, I completely agree with that. Yeah, you know, it's like we have this, this, this concept of productivity, we have to be productive, always produce, produce, produce, as opposed to, you know, the whole idea of Casa Marata is, is to create a place in earth where we can gather and, you know, sit around the virtual fire of the virtual fire and tell the stories of the day. And that's, I mean, we're storytelling, we've, we forgot how to be storytellers. Yeah. And how to, how to just sit in the energy of each other and do nothing but that. Man, what is the, the, I guess, like greatest, I want to say artist who influenced you. And of course there's probably many, but what was the last great artist or work of art that, that moved you? Oh, you know, the thing, the thing that, I'm a history buff. And I love the concept of history. And I think it's because I was born and raised in Northern Canada with no connection to the past at all. I mean, the, the, the only thing I saw that any kind of history was mountains and trees. And, and when I come to Europe and spend time in Europe and I see a thousand year old church, for instance, to me, like, I can sit and look at that church for hours, just look at it. Because I feel like I'm connecting to human history and, and, and, and all, you know, the people that went before and that's, that's, that's going to be us in the future that no one's going to be memorable. You and I talked about here. Right. You know. And, and that, that thought is profound to me. I see, like, if I see like these, these antique, you know, photos of a woman, you know, a semi nude woman from 1890 in Paris. And she's smiling, looking like this. I could stare at that for hours and think, you know, that woman is long gone. And everything she could do, she could play the piano, she could sing, she had ambitions to go to New York, whatever it was, gone from the earth. And, and, and, and, and that's no different than us. And I look at that and think that's, that is us, that's our future. And so, so to, to maximize our experience on this earth and to maximize the memories and the stories on this earth and to gather around the virtual fire and to, and to maximize the greatness of the relationships that we're in and seek nothing else. To me is like, it's, it's my learning. It's my, it's, it's my becoming. It's what I'm trying to understand for myself, as opposed to, you know, getting out of the forest and then going down the rat race and getting a fancier car and a $5,000 couch and, you know, fancy paintings on my wall and all these things, which I had. And chasing it and chasing it, never, nothing was ever good enough. It was like, oh, you know, it's, you're always trying to find something better, better, better. And to, to, for me to cast it aside and say, wait, I want the forest again. And I want to sit in the energy of those girls from 1890 in their semi nude. And they're looking at you from the black and white photo and you think, wow, look how beautiful and young she is there. And it's all gone. So to sit in that and realize the boy, wow, I mean, I can talk for hours about stuff like this, but sure, totally. I mean, hey, look, the expression of the artist, you know, the expression of the artist that captured that moment and the woman who posed for it. It man is a voice that you can get a little bit of, you know, when I used to, I used to work a lot in the arts, worked in theater extensively. And so I would always think, man, I'd always be thinking when we be going through a play, you know, whether it was an eight week or 12 week rehearsal process or sometimes only three weeks. It didn't matter what I had done. I realized that the audience would only get a tenth of what everybody's contribution would be at most. So what the writer thought, I mean, the explosion of imagination that the writer must have had. A lot of times I worked as a professional light designer, which is, you know, very, very it's technical, but it's very internal and paste and, you know, just very slow, very seduction, very seductive, very slow paced. I didn't think of it that way at the time, right? You know, at the time I was just, you know, just doing this very interpretive job and, you know, also stage acting or whatever. But in that time, I would be like, what I'm feeling now, or if I were on stage, what I'm projecting now the audience can only get at my highest point where I really thought that I was communicating to some source that was greater than me and not even me, they could only get a small portion of that. But when you look at art or when you look at architecture, I mean, Jesus, I am not religious, but when you see those churches like this is an act of God. This is why people believe in God. This is like so awesome. Man, that is what allowed me to build a metaphor in my mind to seduction. That's expression, that one expression that I could have that we felt. And actually, you know, this guy, Jason Savage, got done traveling through Europe with you. I picked him up from the airport. And I think he went off and did whatever savage, crazy shit. That's him. He emailed me and he's like, man, I just want to go and fuck a bunch of chicks. And he was like, forget this. But I picked him up from the airport. And he said, man, Steve, you've always been, this was in 2010. He's like, you've always been critical about pickup, but pickup destroys people. It makes people worse. And you just had this long rant. And then, of course, his car is broken down. So we go and fix his car and we're working on that. You know, this guy lived out of a van, true vagabond, you know? Yeah, I remember him telling me, him just telling me he's like, you know, I was sitting with a woman. I think he was talking about having sex. But he was like, it was at the point where I was her and she was me. The noises that she made were me. Like purely, I didn't, you know, will them or whatever, but we were in this unison. And I was like, man, that, that is it. That's that thing that you can only get in that moment of heightened thought. And so, you know, when I would just trip out on art and I would go crazy as an artist, I mean, I was nuts and angry and pissed off like any guy in his early 20s, right? But to me, that was like the religion. No religion. I don't know what God is, but there is something far more than me that I can tap into at times. And the next time I saw it later on in my life was in the presence of women in the presence of sex and connection. Beautiful, amazing thing. Go ahead. I don't know where I'm going with that. This is incredible because what else is there to try and understand or to seek? This is the whole point. If we're not seeking, you just talked about beauty this whole time. If we're not seeking beauty and what it makes us feel and the evocation of that, if we're not seeking our art, then we're just going through the motions that we're doing routine and we're having a job, we're getting a raise, we're getting another job and changing our careers and we're getting cancer and dying. And so, what's the point of it? And that's incredible. And as an aside, my girlfriend Diana, he's a lighting designer because she does what she does right now. Oh yeah, 26 plays, man. My girlfriend is a lighting designer right now. She designs all the lightings at the major theater here in Bucharest. Amazing, really. Wow. And I don't know that world, but she comes home every day and she tells me she's created this and she did this. For me, light design, so there's different types of light designers. And I would imagine your girlfriend is much more on this internal side, which I relate with, which is rare in the higher levels. It's found a lot. But, man, you have two hours or however long the play is, right? Yeah, yeah. To pace, to almost subconsciously through painting the stage with light. In a drama for me, much better to light than like a musical because a musical is just flashy, a lot of cute. Flashy, jumping around, yeah. Fun, but I never liked them. That's cool. But man, if you had a slow paced play, you had the opportunity to sync up with the script and, again, get that 10% that little sliver of whatever that artist was tapping into, you know, that writer and the director and whoever else in their vision was tying your own art to it. Oh, man. It's amazing because nobody notices it. That's the beauty of light design. I think true spirituality is in anonymity. Maybe I should talk to her. But it is in 26 plays, Diana. He did 26 plays and he's talking about the beauty of the art of creating the light and interpreting. And she talks to me about it every day. This is cool because it's a world I don't know about. It's beautiful. But it's the same. So some artists are good at something. Some aren't good at others. But, you know, light design, I was never a technical guy almost. It was very hard for me to get, but I was capable of getting it. But, man. Others did that. You had the vision of it. Yeah, yeah. And what I relate with, yeah, cinematographers are like that. But God, some of those guys are so skilled. I'm very, man, it's going to sound really, I thought of what I did is such a passionate piece of art that I did not agree with anybody else. And so when I'm humbled by people, it's really impressive because I tend to think people don't take it as seriously as me. I haven't done it for over 10 years now. But back then, that's how I thought, man. But when I worked with some cinematographers that were, God, they just blew me away. I could not believe how careful they were and totally different thing, you know, looking at a smaller frame. But if you have a whole stage that doesn't move, you know, and you get to move that and you work with a great set designer and, you know, actors and you can pace it, you can feel it, man. You can feel it move. And there's cues that are happening that are, you know, 30 seconds long that nobody's noticing or two minutes long. And it shapes the feeling. That's cool. It's great. I mean, you're in when you were talking about architecture or art, I always think about like when I saw Beethoven's Seventh Symphony and Ninth Symphony live, I was like, Jesus Christ, this guy wrote this stuff hundreds of years ago. And we get to feel it. And he couldn't even hear for the Ninth Symphony. I mean, you can get on and feel the vibration. Yeah, just amazing. But that's great, man. It's great. That's what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I like, yeah, no, I, and even when it comes to the Amarata, it is like whenever I talk to any of those guys, whether they're Jiao or Jordan or or whoever, you know, it's just the the search for life and the search for truth comes in organic human interactions. Yeah. And, you know, this is side tangent, but you may like this. But like with with Jewish art, with Muslim art, they make it symmetrical, like the star of David is symmetrical, because, you know, you it's man made. And we don't want to be, we don't want to try and say we are like a God. So they intentionally, well, in some forms of art or whatever. That's what I heard. I'm not Jewish. But yeah, yeah, you see these tapestries. So it's non non asynchronous, it's not asynchronous, like, yeah, yeah. So they nature. Yeah, exactly. But they what I heard and what I choose to believe is true. And I've talked to some people about this. And they agree and some disagree. But I always heard that about Muslim art is that it had that. And I thought that was such a great humble, you know, way to think about it. Or with Orthodox Jews, they would say that they did not create art. They were art of sands. Like, gosh, man, I forget his name, but Yitzhak Perlman or so. Anyway, he was a violinist. But or Leonard Bernstein, you know, very he was a conductor, he did compose, but so much was about being a part of the art, rather than being the art, you know, we are not God, we are in the grace of God. But that's interesting. I think what we do tap into that is stuff like sex is stuff like talking to people, having a real moment with somebody. And you actually talk about it, totally going to paraphrase and screw this up. But it was like, if you have not sat on a beach with a woman, you know, under the moonlight, some sand sort of thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've not had that moment, then you need to live. You need to go find it. Yeah, you need to go. Yeah, yeah. You have to go find it, otherwise you'll die. You might live for a long time, but you will die. Man, when did you know that you had come that close to death then? Well, I had, like I said, I had the corporate job and I used to sit there and they were international company, Japanese owned, and they told me, we're grooming you to be the next president. So shadow the president, your office is next to the president, and learn the ways and means of this company, because you'll be the next president. And I used to talk to the president and say, you know, like, you have this big house, and these cars, and this swimming pool, and do you ever get tired of it? And you'd say, well, I said, what do you and your wife do for fun on the weekend? Watch TV. And I thought, wow, man, not for me. I have to go escape back into the wilderness and see through the birch trees again. And I don't look back. It was the greatest thing I've ever done. And it's the seeking of art, it's seeking of beauty and seeking of relevance in our life. What a different life you have. I mean, it's just so crazy. You're in Bucharest. What caused you, are you settled down in one place now? Yeah, like, what happened was I've been, like, as you know, I've been traveling for like, you know, 10 years and Hans joined me five years ago. And we've been living in, we lived in Austin for a few months, we lived in Montreal for a few months, we lived in Panama for a few months, Columbia, we lived in all, you know, these different places, just picking up and going to the next place. And then we were, I was, I went to Nicaragua for four months to work on my book. And I came out of the, the, the jungles of Nicaragua and I went to Amsterdam and did a major weekend intensive event with like 20 guys, which was culture shock from going from Nicaragua t-shirt and shorts straight to Amsterdam. And there was a guy that came there from Romania and said, you have to come visit Romania. I'm, I'm, I invite you with, with, you know, both hands open to come visit my beautiful country. And, and Hans and I looked at each other, Romania. All right, let's go. And so we came to Romania, we spent a month here. And, and it's, it's, you know, my ancestors are from this part of the world, like the, the Carpathian mountains are between Ukraine and Romania and the north of Romania. And my aunts, my grandmother and grandfather came from a small village just over the border from Romania into Ukraine. And so, you know, it's not very far from here. And so I, when I come here and I, the Eastern European feel of the weather and the wind and, and the food and the women, it's just my, it's just my DNA is here for sure. And I absolutely love it here. And so when it came to Romania, I realized, wow, and it's such an abundance of beautiful giving women here. It's like, it shocks your heart to, you know, like that kind of thing. It breaks your heart to see, to see this kind of abundance of great women. And so I came back here in the last, that was four years ago. And I came back fairly often to the point where I'm, I basically now, I bought an interest in a hostel here, which is Castle, Castle Marrano. So yeah, I'm here now. And, and I'll still travel from here, but I'm going to base, this is the base of ours. I'm always going to be a book rest for sure. Hans is based here. He lives here. And we will travel out from here, but we'll always come back to this hub. So to me, it's a center. Yeah. Do you feel that being a, well, having a center point that you've attached yourself to more things? Not really. Like I live in a, in a small room. Still got a suitcase. Still got a suitcase. And I got a bit more clothes maybe, but not much. No, I'm still got like two pairs of shoes. Yeah. Hey, that's good. No, I like, like, you know, like I lived in the corporate world and I had so much stuff. I had all this stuff and I bought, you know, new stereos and new TVs and every room had this and, and, and, um, and if I ever, if I ever for whatever act of, you know, aliens came down and rewired my brain and I went back into the corporate world, for instance, back into the same job I had, I would never, ever, ever going to accumulate that came the same volume of stuff because the lightness on your feet, the feeling of just, you just have a few things, you have a few options. You don't have to, you only got two pairs of shoes. You don't have to like, what shoes should I wear? It's like, your life seems freer because you don't have, you know, the choice and, and it's the simplicity of it. It's like, to me, it's marvelous, marvelous, and, and you don't need a lot of money to cover it because you don't, we need a lot of jobs and, and second jobs and, and raises and stuff yet because of all the stuff we accumulate. And, you know, we have to, and our TV's not big enough and we have to get another one. So we put that on the credit card. And so because of all of our volume of stuff is why we have to work so hard and we've so productive all the time. So when you have just a few things and you limit it down to just the bare necessities, your life seems so light and free and you can sit on the balcony with a glass of champagne with your girlfriend and, and look out at the sky and, you know, because you don't have this, there's something about it. It was, you know, I mean, Hans and I used to, you know, when we travel, we'd go to say Panama and we would go stay in a, in a hostel in a private room in a hostel in Panama. And we see these backpackers coming in and they've got a giant backpack on the back and a giant one in the front and they're dragging stuff in and we have these little tiny, you know, carry-on bags when we're in suits and they would say, how do you guys do it? And, and we said, what, you know, what do you have in your backpack? We've got this tent just in case and, but we stay in hostels the whole time. And it's like, we're, we still carry around all this volume of stuff and it's like, and they said, we're impressed by the way you guys do it. You just relax and, and, and you have a little choice and so you just go. Yeah. So anyway, I could talk about that for no, I actually, I think that everybody should do that just for a life experience. I mean, you know, number one, you have to have faith in yourself because that, and that's the one thing you have the fear of holding on to all this stuff, man, go. Yeah. But then the second thing is, is you don't need anything and have some faith in humanity and people and, you know, just in a very, I guess, layman, maybe American sense, if I went traveling somewhere, like if I learned, let's say if I bared down and studied all the, you know, how to be cool, be a PUA, have the most stuff, like if I studied all of that and went out to a bunch of clubs and did it all, I'd have some, I, you know, I've actually proven that I could have some pretty cool experiences with that. But, but if I just took a backpack and went to Mexico and didn't have an agenda and just kind of talked to people that I met, man, I would have a life-changing adventure. Of course. Every day, you know, I mean, it's just so different. So, and sure, there may be some bad days, but it's just so, so different. The way we live now, I mean, God, I'm pretty tied down myself is very limiting and we need to, God just realized like really how we were born to be and see the world every day and the simple things. Man, that being said, somebody wrote in about the essence of women, what, let me actually look exactly what he was saying, but he's referencing your book and says, all physicality aside, what specific quality do you love most about female essence? What do you look for love most about women? You mentioned gratitude, but maybe I missed the core of what you look to most about femininity or was it compassion? What is the essence of female grace? I wrote in my book that the essence of beauty of truly beautiful women is gratitude. In other words, not gratitude to you or gratitude to, but just a sense of gratitude of being alive and being able to sit and enjoy the essence of the day. The quality that I admire the most of women, that I like the most of women, that draws me most of me personally and not everybody, the thing I like the most is, how do I say it? Because it's not exactly the word I want to use, but I'm going to use it and then try and just explain it. The thing I like the most is devotion. Devotion. That I'm excited to show up in this world and I'm excited to express myself in a certain way and I'm delighted to present my energy to the world and who I am, and I really admire and am attracted to a woman who does the same thing, who puts it forth in a great sense. She puts forth her full energy and I don't know, for me that, for instance, go to bed with a woman who just wants, and just because you wheeled her up at the bar and you're going to have sex with her. To me, there's nothing in that. I mean, I've had one night stands in my life, but there's nothing in it if she isn't there completely, just as excited as you are. So this concept, the pickup artist concept of last man resistance and trying to convince a woman that's so foreign to who I am, I don't want to convince a woman of anything. I want her to be just as delighted and excited and honor what we have. I might have just met her, but I wanted to honor the connection without saying, okay, well, you have to do this and you have to prove this and you have to jump through these hoops. I don't do anything like, if a woman's playing hard to get, I'm gone, man. I'm long gone, because I'm not hard to get. I'm excited about life and I know I like you. I see all these girls here in Austin, Texas, wherever I am. I see all these girls and there's something about you that intrigues me and you're the one I like. I like this girl. I like you and I don't know why. And I want that same energy back and then I feel like, wow, okay, now I can show up on this earth because I'm in the presence of a great feminine energy as opposed to you have to prove to me something and blah, blah, blah, blah. So to me, it's not the most accurate word, but devotion. If a woman is not excited to be there just as I'm excited, I'd rather not. I'd rather just like, I'm not going to convince her to go to bed and then like, okay, wow, I managed to get this girl under ice and deuster in the bed. I don't want to do that. I wanted to be just as excited and present as I am. So to me, her devotion to her own femininity, not necessarily to you, but yes, devotion to her devotion to the experience that we both know is there. I could feel it. She could feel it. And to honor that and say, yeah, I could, there's something there that transcends, you know, the trivialities of like normal like friends dating and like going, you know, you know, trying to figure things out and trying to convince you to go to bed or I'm going to buy you a bunch of drinks and see if you, you know, this kind of triviality of that and just say, wow, there's a greatness here in you that is appealing to the greatness of my masculine core. And a woman that honors that, that's a great woman. That's a great, great, great woman. Yeah. Yeah. No, man. I mean, it's even when you were talking before about the woman that I forget how you worded it, but you see gives everything to you. Yeah. There's so many women that give, but not the full. I mean, it's humbling when you see that you're like, God, you, I get to exist in this. This is like amazing, unique moment. You know, you never want to leave, but very, very rare. You know, it's sad because it doesn't have to be, you know, just like you said, any man can do it, but few men actually step up to it. But that being said, I want to ask you about your business because you live this, you know, lifestyle where it's very much your own, very unique. Yet you've built a business, well, a group of men. That's how I see it that are very consistent in what they say, very different, totally different presence, totally different mentality. How did you do this? Because from my understanding, you know, you do your own thing. Like you, it's really your philosophy being taught not through you directly, but through a voice of men, instructors, whatever it is. You know, how did this develop? Well, the message has been formed and massaged over the years. And I think it's a beautiful message. And I think it's a, it's a, it's a needed message. And it's, it's a co-created message. And I think for me, like, like we, I used to do seminars where I do a lecture or something like that. And I do a weekend intensive, for instance. And I would, you know, you know, get to know the guy's names so that we can shake their hand and get my picture with them at the end of the weekend. And then I'm gone to the next town, like, you know, Cowboy running from town to town, Johnny Appleseed planting seed, right? And, and what we, what we discovered over the years, because it's such a, such a fundamental, the guys that, that are attracted to the message are such a, such a, have such camaraderie with each other and such a desire, such a desire to gather together. I mean, you know, the, the Amradi logo, the A has been tattooed in probably 20, 25, 30 guys. Yeah. Hans, when I, I met Hans, when he first started looking up with you and he was like, look at this tattoo, you know, there's so much I believe in it. And I was like, what, what are you talking about, man? Yeah, but it is guys from Denmark to, to, you know, Columbia that have that, that tattooed on their body. And it is because of, they're not, you know, they're not tattooing my face on them. They're tattooing something that says, you know, this gave me the, the, the state of grace of the, and a band of brothers I didn't have before. This, this concept that I belong to something incredible with a great conversation, which isn't just about soccer and beer. And, and so what we discovered was the guys themselves formed in, in our awake, we would do like a seminar or a talk and lectures and the guys were gathering together behind us and said, we want more, we want to keep gathering. And so the Amorati network of guys really just was, was, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's a 10 year old concept, but it kind of formed almost in spite of us. And we've got guys, you know, members all over the world who are, who are, you know, they're saying, we're in the same conversation as, as this great conversation we may not have even figured out. Yeah, we're in this great conversation. So it's great. Yeah, yeah, there's a, there's one question that I personally have for you, but do you know Monica Bellucci and do you think she's a beautiful woman? No comments. There you go. Yeah, no, I think she's a fantastic, beautiful woman. I think she's, she's a, you know what she has? She has a quiet beauty about her, which is, yeah, I've only seen her on the screen, man. Yeah, but I, Jesus Christ, man, that that's something about her, right? Man, such a, and really interesting actress, because I mean, that's all I know her as or model or whatever, because the way she carries herself, man, she just knows it, knows it in such a slight way of her face, her body, how to use it, but then also the roles she's chosen are insane and makes me like her more for that, because it's just so crazy. And don't you have a sense with a woman like that, that you can go out and fight your battles and be the warrior out on the battle. And then you can crawl back into the cave and, and, and curl up in her lap like a cat. Yeah. You know what exactly I mean? And if you don't have that quality in a woman, you know, there's nothing. God, so much about her actually carries the essence of that, you know, her body, but not in this overt, like she carries the absolute beauty, I think, of herself physically, but in her, her face and how she uses her expression is really where that, that comes from the pretty amazing thing. But I've always thought that, you know, I'm with you, man. Yeah, hey, we're there. But anyway, yeah, no comment. Okay, man, one last thing that I will ask you is, geez, man. So we actually, we covered a lot of these questions that, that Jim had given to me. But man, in this, in this society where we're told what beauty is, where there's a commodity of beauty, where there's a definition of what we're supposed to have, what we're supposed to be. You know, every guy, you know, he gets exposed to it, whether he's watching porn, whether he's seeing women, but it's the woman that he can't have. How does a guy get more in touch with that beautiful feminine presence, this beauty, this art, this expression, that not just the expression that an artist made 200 years ago, but the expression that we can get into now, today with a woman, where does a man start? What is the first thing that an Amorati would do? You know what he should do? The first thing he should do is start to call it out, start to call it forth with his words. Now, with his actions, trying to say, okay, well, I'm gonna be this guy, you be this woman, speak to women in a way that exactly what you just said, the way you just phrased that question, changed it into a statement and say that I'm seeking to, to elicit this kind of beauty out of, out of my experience in life, out of the women I meet, including you. And speak, speak these, this kind of language, speak these kinds of things, what you just phrased in a beautiful question, phrased it into a sentence and say it to the women you meet. This is what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a different experience. I want, I want to know the profundity of, of my experience in life, and I want to make the greatest members I can, and I want to be surrounded by beauty. And I'm talking to you. In a sense of seduction and exchange, if a man puts that out there, look, I want beauty and connection in all the capabilities of the art that you have within you. If I were to say that to a woman, how does that man learn the skill to actually nurture that out of her? Well, like I said, if like, guys are trying to show off their actions and trying to get a response from women and get a behavior from women from their actions to try and say, okay, well, I'm going to show up and, and, and let her know that I'm a sexual man. And so they'd be all, you know, kind of aggressive. The greatest thing I think a guy can do is to speak with his words, how he wants it to be. Just, just, you know, the ball is always in her court and they don't ask her anything to say, Hey, would you like to go for a drink with me? Or would you like to go for coffee? Say, I would, in my worldview, what you're basically saying is you and I should go for coffee because I would like that because that's how I see the world. You can, you, my dear, can want something completely different than that. That's okay. I didn't ask you for anything. I just said, I made my statement. I would like to see you again. I don't know why, but there's something about you and I would like you and I should go for a drink. No question in there. There's nothing that can be rejected because you're just speaking your truth constantly. It's interesting because as you're saying this, I'm thinking of what people may think. Like, well, I can't just say that, you know, I get all this friction. But as I think about it and looking back at my own experience, what if I took that chance? And this is really what guys listening to this should think about. If you take that chance with your life, yeah, you get some friction, you get some resistance, you get some people rejecting you. Man, that is your chance to live your ideal though, you know, your path, your passion, man, beautiful, beautiful thing. Man, we got to have you back in some way, just to talk to you, man. And also, it would be great to talk to Hans or Jordan or any of those guys because you guys have such a rich, amazing message that only comes out. Well, I don't want to say only comes out, but comes out so amazingly in a conversation. So I really appreciate it, man. You're an amazing dude. I'll come back anytime. Yeah, cool. How do people find out about you and all that sort of stuff? Well, you know, right now you go to zanperian.com and we're reinventing and rewriting the website arsonrata.com and all our programs. We have a, you know, an online university program, et cetera. I have a book. Hello. Look, it's called the alabaster girl, which you can buy on Amazon in Kindle form or in real form. It took me 10 years to write this. And it is everything that, you know what? It's interesting because I think it took me, it was a year ago that I finished it almost a year ago. And yet there is very little that I've discovered or thought about since then that isn't in the book. Wow. I'm shocked. I'm shocked how comprehensive it is. Yeah. I'm shocked that I got it done. And I'm shocked that it's like, it's out of my system. And it's like, it's vomited out of my system. It's over there. And I hope guys like it. And yeah, it's, I'm gonna write another book. I'm starting another book now. And it's going to be like a novel about a mouse or a boy and his dog or something. It's gonna be a 150 page book about a little boy skipping through the words. I can't write this thing again. Yeah. Yeah. Man, that's amazing because you're a guy that constantly thinks and the philosophy of life is this, you know, huge exchange with you. That's the essence of Xan. But, and also, I mean, Hans has said, you know, you're one of the wisest men that he's ever known. And, you know, and I think that that comes out through the experience. And man, I'm glad you put out the book because it's there for, for people to see. Yeah. It's everything it's everything I could possibly do is that it's like, like I said, it took me 10 years birthday to birthday. And yeah, I was like fighting with it and wrestling with it and hating it. And it finally became something that I said, yeah, that's, that's what I've been trying to say all the I mean, I could have put about this book out five years ago, after three or four years writing it. And it would have been a cool book. I said, well, I got this book by Xan is cool. I learned this and I learned that. But it would not have been an honest book. And for me, it had to have all the good and all the bad in it. So it's like, it's a very it's very it's not a book that makes me look good. In fact, it's not even about me. So but it is, but it is authentic as I can make it be without trying to be cool. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Well, man, gotta come to Bucharest, especially to check out some of those plays because man, I would love I love seeing a good play. You'd like it. You would like it. To me, one of the highest forms of art, just great orchestration of everything. She's doing a play right now with one of the most famous directors in Romania. She's just designing it right now and it's spelled Casanova. Wow, that's great. And she's like she just in the preliminary meetings of lighting that play, that great play about Casanova. Whenever you work with a great director, however they direct, man, it's just really cool because some direct, very technically some direct, but their vision is expressed so well, you know, very different ways. So it's very, very cool when you work with somebody that good. Man, family, kids, anything like that on the like, is this an urge for you? Do you want this? Dan and I are hanging out and, you know, she's I'm based in Bucharest here. She's she's based in Bucharest and she's over there looking at me right now. And then this and we talk about lighting design. So she's all excited. Yeah, it's who knows how things go. Yeah. Yeah, cool. You're still in Austin, right? I'm still in Austin. Yeah, to have a family here and all this sort of stuff. You we actually, we saw you. This is a very Xan thing. Let me just say this. So we came to one of Johnny Sopornos things. I forget what year, but Eric invited us. We were already in Vegas and he said, Hey, come and see us in Vegas. Yeah. So and you were there. But we were just in the audience watching Eric speak hypnotica. And my my partner and I, Maria, and she's a very, very tall one. She's six foot tall. Always man, this is from day one with her had that. They're clearly two different people, Monica, Baluchi and her, but had that presence of okay. And so I was just like, boom, I just is always kept to me engaged. And when you were talking about the beauty of of a woman giving herself to you, like I'm humbled by it. I'm like, wow, you chose me. You choose me every day. Like this is, you know, it's just such an awesome thing. And to go through that, you've been with your woman for three years years. Yeah, we've been over two, not three yet, but there's that wave of relationships. And actually something I probably should have asked you, man. But we saw you at Johnny's to Pornos thing, you would not stop looking at her. And I remember we left. We left like you guys are on stage. It's like you and Johnny and John Lichenberg and Eric, there's like this panel, some, started crying or something. And Eric's like trying to do damage control on that or something because I guess he got to remember. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we're like, we got to go because we had an appointment and, you know, cool senior Eric. And I just remember you, you were like, wait, wait, like stopping Maria, just I was like, Oh man, that's Xan Xan knows doesn't see any men in the room only sees the beauty. It's just that's always just how I've seen you. It's just so you, you know, it's it's it's so honest. I mean, it's just something that is actually very cool to see. Man, one last thing if you got, I know it's late for you, man. No problem. But relationships, this was the number one question I just hosted the 21 convention in Tampa. There's like 30 guys in the audience. They didn't give a shit about pickup. Well, I don't want to say that, but they did not care about it. All they wanted to know about relationships and how they started and it really made me think, you know, I'm in a good relationship now. I've had plenty of bad relationships. There's nobody in the scene. There's very few guys. I say this on podcast after podcast of guys that I could actually talk to about what to do next. I could talk to John Legendberg, you know, I can talk to Eric in terms of I don't know personally about your relationships, but in terms of women and seduction and your philosophy of how you see people, I could talk to you. Yeah. What about relationships made you like, you know, how did you know what made you that that part of being a man and being able to be responsible for a woman in her emotions in that way? Yeah. That's a deep question. And yeah, well, give me the short one. Well, the short one is, you know, there's, there's a full boy, I wrote a lot about relationships in my book. And it's the concept is, is, is, I don't know anything about psychology or the, you know, that kind of thing or evolutionary biology and this kind of stuff about, about relationship. All I know is that there's some, there's some moments in your life when someone comes into life that makes the greatest, the greatest women for a man, for a man's life is the women that can see the potential in him that he can't see in himself. Yeah. Yes. Man. And when you have a woman like that to, to, to push you to greater heights than you could possibly do yourself because you have it in you, but you just can't see it. And the greatest women in relationship are the ones that see that potential in you and, and, and inspire you to those heights. So, um, but I could talk about a relationship for a long time here, man. Yeah. Sorry. Next time. Next time. Another call, but, but I believe in it. And I believe in, in the concept, I mean, we've talked about the, you know, the, the usual things like communication, all kinds of stuff, but there's something different, something different. No, I agree. When you come home or just are in the presence of a woman who believes in that level, it made me realize I didn't know how indeficient I was of that my whole life. And I've been anywhere for, yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy. Cool, man. You probably got to go. If you keep me talking, I'll talk for fucking ever. So, and I always hate it when I'm kept on podcast too long. Hey, man, good stuff. We've got to do it again. Thank you, Steve. I would do it again. No problem in a second. Yeah, awesome.