 Welcome, we are so glad you're here for another episode of the non-profit show today we have one of our favorites and if you joined us the green room you heard that Katie Warnick has been with us. From the very beginning has been joining us for about three years now maybe more monthly to share with us about all kinds of things going on. So again for those of you watching and listening Katie Warnick has joined us CEO of staffing boutique, and she's here to talk to us about a very popular, although maybe not a fun conversation, but it's it's one that's important is downsizing your nonprofit staff stay with us because I think this is something all nonprofits at some point right will have to have to deal with but Julia Patrick we are so glad that you created this platform for us to have the conversation. Julia is the CEO at the American nonprofit Academy, and I'm so very lucky to serve alongside Julia day in and day out as the nonprofit nerd and co host, CEO of the Raven group and I really love nerding out over so many conversations and today is one that is going to hit home pretty hard I'm excited to have you here to talk to about that. Again, thank you to our presenting sponsors these companies, including staffing boutique where Katie is allow us these opportunities and we have produced 800 nearly 800 episodes talking about any and all things that relate to the nonprofit sector. A huge shout out to our friends over at Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy, fundraising Academy at National University, nonprofit thought leader, your part time controller, again staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. Check out these companies because I like to say their mission is your mission they want to help you do more good in around and throughout your community. I mentioned 800 episodes and if you're thinking I had no idea and you want to go back and see what we talked about. See what other topics Katie and her team have brought to us. You can find these episodes on a streaming broadcast podcast platform and the latest and greatest is to download the app so we now have the nonprofit show app. I haven't downloaded it Katie I highly recommend because you will get a notification and just a few hours that your episode is now uploaded on the app so again Katie welcome back. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm really excited. So, to remind all of you Katie Wardek CEO and founder staffing boutique joins us from the greater New York community and it's really been a lot of fun because for the last three years as Julie and I have said, Katie you have brought so much like to the show in real time. You know what's happening in New York what are you seeing what's changing. How is the landscape evolving so I'm just so grateful to have you and talk about reporter on the streets like I feel like you're, you know, you're a reporter from New York so thank you. Yeah you're welcome. Thanks a little bit about what you do and your team at staffing boutique. Sure. So I've actually been doing recruiting for the nonprofit sector only almost, oh goodness 20 years at this point. I started staffing boutique in 2011. We are a small woman owned business and we do temp, temp to perm and permanent staffing for the nonprofit sector and charter schools and then New York to Jersey area. So, totally started very small and it's, it's crazy to imagine how how much we've grown insane. I love seeing you on LinkedIn. You know you and Dana you're constantly, you know pushing out post you're hiring you're hiring you're hiring so you have got so much going on. And I love that you serve this niche market so thank you for that. So again today we're really going to talk about nonprofit downsizing and what what exactly that looks like and we're going to start off talking about leadership preparation Katie so how does leadership prepare staff for reductions and again so many changes over the last three years right. So what preparation look like. So I think that the theme just across the board with me is always communication and I think that that's the best way to go into this, just always communicating what needs to be done. Obviously it's a big decision to downsize your nonprofit so it's going basically what from the board to executive leadership. So strategy needs to be in place and how it is going to be communicated because it really should only be communicated all at once. You know you don't want to have a staff of people that are basically on edge every day, not to have changes that are going to, you know, occur over what two weeks, three months who knows. So I think that communication and strategy is really where you need to start. You really only have that one opportunity to basically make a last impression on staff that has been good to you. So how are you going to do that and how are you going to do that successfully and roll it out smoothly is really important. That makes sense and I love that you say like you don't want to keep staff on edge and I feel like over the last three years right like there's been so much change for better for worse right but there has been a lot of workforce changes. Again, maybe some have been initiated by the employee themselves resigning changing positions but then there's also been decisions made by leadership made by economic factors right that have just required some some staff changes so that on edge I can imagine is something that probably bubbles up to the surface so are you seeing or do you recommend right if you're kind of hearing the percolations of staff talking some uncomfortable or you know when are they next or are we safe to stay here like what do you recommend once that kind of starts percolating at the at the surface. Yeah, so I think that that's why you need to be tactful about how you are going to announce layoffs I think that you know with nonprofits. When we had that big layoff whenever that was in 2009 I think that one way to tackle it was to see who wanted to do a voluntary for low or maybe take a package at that point or just you know essentially cut down our so I think announcing it that way could be a good cost effective to do it, but then also be strategic on time on who is going to be laid off, basically right after that. Keep in mind that announcing these layoffs is going to disrupt everyone it's not just the ones that are going to be laid off right especially, you know, I talked about New York but a lot of organizations are just very small, literally, really small, we don't have the space, you know, so it's a very tight knit organization so everyone is essentially family. If you have that good dynamic at your organization you know the people that are going to be sticking around are going to be just as her shocked, touched by this. You really need to keep that in mind so I think you need to be really strategic again how you communicate in what sort of timely manner, and also have HR ready to go with exit interviews. Yeah, so exit interviews I think we did a whole episode on these at one point, but I think that you can in a mass layoff or something like that, use your exit interviews a little bit differently. And then as a way to number one collect data on what your people that are going to be leaving say about your organization is that will help shape the culture of the organization going forward. But you also want to allow them to sort of be an opportunity for your information or your organization to give out a bunch of information that's going to be pertinent as these people exit. I mean, so anything about cobra benefits resources to get that new job sharing their information on LinkedIn or any sort of list serves out there, anything like that. And then on top of that, the people that are being laid off are going to have lots of questions you know who who made this decision, and being able to let them ask questions and have answers that answers for them because remember, you want to do this tactfully and skillfully and politely because social media is a thing. So, if it is not handled well, everyone will know, you know, it's really quick you know how how word gets out so you want to be really tackle and how you tackle your exit interviews and a layoff. Social media is a thing. And, and the other thing I believe has changed legally is that you cannot ask a staff member to sign like a disparagement closure. You know that says like hey you're not going to tarnish, you know the organization or say anything ill will right like, I don't know is that something you can speak on Katie because I believe that's a recent change right like that we cannot ask staff to sign something on that process or procedure that says that they won't say anything bad. And then there's, you know, platforms like glass door and other, you know, places that they really look to get this feedback from staff. I have no idea about the legal ramifications of doing that, but you know, obviously glass door has been out there for a while so you know, their reviews and people write reviews about organizations and there are a lot of people that rely on those reviews to decide if they're going to work at said organization. Another thing too I've been seeing a lot of just this newer generation just as they're departing organizations writing almost just blogs about how terrible an organization is, and it's insane to me because I come from the school of thought like, how do you think you're ever going to get employment again, you know, why are you bad mouthing, you know, publicly on a blog, a former employer, but but it happens. And I can say right like even because I live in Metro Phoenix or in Metro New York, like, even that we are big cities but we are small nonprofit communities right and yeah, yeah, there's a lot of commutant communication that gets out so. So let's talk a bit about confidence and instilling this within you know staff so how do you instill staff confidence during labor changes what what are some things that we can look at here. I think communication is still going to be you know my first answer but you know, making sure that your staff is aware of why this is occurring so we're talking about nonprofits so what are the financials where did the organization maybe make goals was government funding cuts somewhere why is there a specific layoff so I think being really tactful about how you communicate the reason of why is going to make everyone sort of understand. They're going to mourn the loss of their coworkers of course allow that, but also allow them to sort of navigate the future of the organization while they stay and you can do that by, you know, showing them a career path there. Instilling job security because at some point during a mass layoff job security was was taken from even the people that are staying there. So make sure that they know that, you know, you did a good job we're applauding you and this is why we kept you and this is where we see you going with the organization. So really being clear and communicative on how you do that with them will really like instill confidence. Yeah, and I think to being proactive right like with that communication. And I know it's tricky that you know you don't want certain layoffs or terminations to get like you don't want that to be known before it actually happens maybe certain groups. So that's kind of tricky but are you recommending maybe that we now get together more often like there's more team meetings there's more kind of like, you know, fun activities that helps to really reinvigorate the stuff. Of course I've always said that that's a good idea, hoping that solely maturely everyone is returning to the office you know that's still not really a huge thing here you know a lot of we're still on hybrid schedules here. So yeah maybe doing a town hall or a monthly newsletter or Q&A. So we're not just meeting on you know review time. So what does that look like quarterly or monthly team building outings, you know, professional development conferences things like that. Yeah, I like that because you're right. There's a remote workforce there's an in person workforce there's a hybrid workforce. There's still so many staff members I hear Katie that have yet to meet each other right like in person and so I'm just looking at this from all different angles and not to mention and I know we're not going to get into like legal HR but you know every state is different so if you have a remote workforce and they're working in different states around the nation, all of that, you know, has a factor. But it's still, to me what I'm hearing is communication right like keeping the culture positive. I love the transparency that you really post so. Yeah, yeah it's important. The other thing too is after a mass layoff there tends to be like turnover contagion, which is essentially all my friends are gone. So now I'm going to go to it makes you sort of reevaluate what your thoughts are on the organization. So people tend to just leave or look for work elsewhere because their friends left, you know, I work with one of my schools that I work with a principal left mid year and took eight of their teachers with them. You know, so you know you really need to be aware of the signs of what's going on and you know you want to make sure that you handle that layoff correctly to be strategic to make sure that your staff doesn't stay with you. Okay, I love that. And it was really, you know, the first slide is how to how to leadership prepare for staff reductions. I love that you mentioned, you know, asking for volunteers to choose, you know, exactly to be laid off. So these are, you know, staff that have been on a long time maybe they're close to retirement. Maybe they have other, you know, issues challenges at home or outside of work that has really been impacting a lot of things and so I'm just going back to like if we could make this, you know, a volunteer opportunity someone to say hey, I'll step up you know like I would use this. I'm just going back to that but I see that often. You know what it is in the New York area we have so many actors and actresses and opera singers that get into nonprofits because maybe they wrote grants or something like that for a program and then they wind up full time and then they wind up getting accustomed to a full time but they're still very passionate about whatever their art may be. So I see it actually kind of often where you know an opera singer is like oh goodness I would love to be laid off I would now have six months to go and travel, you know, with with the opera that I'm a part of full time you know so it works here now again I don't know the Phoenix area but I just think that's really valid you know but we've talked about over the last three years in many ways you know how a lot of CEOs and leadership positions have hung on during this tumultuous time and a lot are tired right and so they might say okay I'm ready I'm ready for that retirement now. Keeping the confidence is critical. Let's talk about stress. How can we deal with the stress of management that has to do the dirty work and I'm calling it the dirty work right because I don't think anyone wakes up in the day and says I can't wait to lay off some people knowing that impact right so how can we deal with stress of management that has to act on these actual reductions. Yeah I mean I don't think that you need me to say this but you know I'm a big self care person so doing all the things that you should be doing any way to take care of yourself during this you know at the end of the day it is just work so how do you separate yourself from any other stress that's going on this is just an added part of your job right so drinking a lot of water taking vacation days getting massages. Making sure you're getting active getting sun exposure you know all of those little things go a long way you're not just doing that one day every six months you know it's not a self care one day. Sort of situation it's little bits every day help reduce 10 minute walks a day you know reading whatever it is getting your sleep you know taking your magnesium. So mindfulness practice you know when you said massage like oh yes I'm long overdue and holding each other accountable right like like talking to your peers having leadership supervisors say you know hey when was the last time that you took the afternoon off or when was the last time you know that you went and got a massage and I think just really you know continuing to recommend and remind our peers of this. There's a lot of heavy shifting. Yeah, and remembering obviously there are vacation days to take you know and not everything of the organization is on one person you know you have a team you can take a day off. And you should take a day off right because anytime I hear someone Katie and they're like oh I haven't taken a vacation in two years I'm like red flag red flag. It's terrible and I don't want to brag about but yet people are still bragging. Yeah, no I know. I know it makes it really hard well I too I'm a huge proponent for self care. Regardless of what that looks like what time it falls in you know even for some people that are working from home in fact I was talking to a very high performer at AFP icon Katie. Yeah, she has a team and she's like, I even put my naps on my schedule like my staff knows that I'm taking a 45 minute power nap right in the middle of the day and and she just calls it out. She's very transparent with that, and that helps her you know really just stay well. So yeah, that's huge. Okay, let's talk about these packages you mentioned it earlier in today's conversation. What do and I'm going to say what can reduction just look like. I saw this slide and I left because I was just like, does that happen in nonprofits. And like I said to you, you know I think that we're in our own little animal in the nonprofit sector, you know, when I saw, you know, benefits package like I, I've obviously seen benefits packages go to CEOs. And then you know, more so in higher ed in the hospital foundation world, I've seen packages. But other than that, you know, I really haven't seen packages, I guess the rule of thumb is for every year that a person works, it would be one to two weeks of pay would be essentially what is fair, but but again, I don't see it often with nonprofits. So, I think just having, you know, information about Cobra. This is how you collect unemployment, you know, and, and PTO approval, you know, to be paid out is essentially what we're looking at when we're talking about nonprofits. And some staff that might have been, you know, 10 year and they're there for a long time they might have a lot of carry over PTO, but I can't help but think Katie, how that will impact the organization financially right so this is something I think we need to talk about well in advance of doing the layoff because that could be a financial hit right huge yeah huge it's a huge financial hit. How do we prepare for that. Because I mean I'm assuming if we're making some layoffs it's also because of some financial insecurity. I know a lot of organizations and we've talked about this on the show have received a huge influx right of of CARES Act funding and PPP right like like a huge influx of funding. And now it's starting to go back down so when one of my clients right they went from 6 million to 11 million to 17 million. Now they're going back to 6 million. Right. So if they, you know, if they have staff that they need to consider terminating. That's a big hit to the pocketbook. Yeah, I love that you said that, but I just don't think we're at a place that anyone in the nonprofit sector was budgeting for packages. Me and I'm not seeing it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I was talking about the last time I was on like nonprofits weren't budgeting for you know paying their development people more. You know, and it just they never budget correctly, and they're always behind because they're planning on the next fiscal year, you know, so I certainly don't think that they're big dollars to be paid out so I think you have to be creative about what you're going to be in terms of severance. So I want to ask you, you know, there's been a lot of concern of the economy right like what's going to happen you mentioned 2009 I was a reduction in force and at that time, which was actually the impetus to start my business you know. So I don't think we're at a time of unlining of being a reduction in force. But what are you seeing by way of the economy right because there's so much uncertainty, and we've had uncertainty again for the last three years, but a long runway. But what are you starting to see to be honest, you know the last time I was on I, I don't see anything different from what last month or two months ago. I haven't seen steady I haven't seen a bunch of layoffs, I still see jobs out there, I don't think that you know anything is going to change until maybe 2024, to be honest with you. We'll see, we're holding steady. I'm not going to say that it's as busy as it was eight months ago, it definitely isn't, but I feel like we've leveled off and everybody is sort of in their groove right now. You know one thing I'm seeing is, I'm seeing a lot of kind of that C suite position, opening up. And so whether it's someone who's leaving a CEO or development director, you know position. And so organizations because one of the service lines I do Katie is interim work right. And if I could fill my plate with and do like 10 of them right now, I would but that is like, there are so many organizations that are looking. Looking for like an executive level leader to come in because they're experiencing transition there. And I hate to say this, the majority of them do not have a succession plan in place for the staff that is remaining right so like, there's no one there that's been identified as CEO. There's no one else there that's been identified as development director and even some of these other, you know, even chief financial officer like there's a lot of. So I am seeing that where I am getting a lot more inquiries around the interim work I do, because they're hiring, and, and not having good success really at filling these higher level positions. I could see that because so for so long. So many people that were expected to retire or planning on moving just held on to their jobs because they don't want to leave their organization high and dry they really didn't know what the future holds and now, you know, it's time for them to move on so I definitely see that trend. There's, there's a lot going on but this is a wonderful conversation because, regardless, you know, of us looking at downsizing nonprofits, you know, it's inevitable, all of us will have to downsize or at least makes kind of a staff change right. Maybe you didn't hire the right staff person or you're, you're finding out that, you know, it's just not quite quite a cultural fit either. So Katie you always bring some of the best information to us so Katie Warnock, CEO and founder at StaffingBoutique, check out her website, it's staffingboutique.org. Again, she niches in this nonprofit market, also works with a lot of charter schools. I just love hearing from you and your colleague Dana, because you're really bringing so much tangible information for us to learn from and again it's ever evolving and I love that you're transparent about that. Thanks, always a good conversation. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you also, you know, when Julie and I heard from you as you know this story because you wrote the story, but you reach out to us early early in what we were doing the corona chronicles at that time right. And just said hey, you know I love what you're doing would love to help you out with that so thanks to you. We are so glad to have you probably as our very first sponsor here so thank you to Katie Warnock, StaffingBoutique for being one of our amazing presenting sponsors. Also want to give a shout out of gratitude to Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy, fundraising Academy at National University, nonprofit thought leader, your part time controller, nonprofit tech talk, nonprofit nerd and another shout out to StaffingBoutique. Katie, thank you it's always a pleasure. Yeah, it's so great to have you here learning from you, day in and day out. I'd love to get you here in Arizona and yes I would mind coming to you as well so thanks for spending your time with us and please do follow Katie and StaffingBoutique online as well as LinkedIn she's constantly posting these job opportunities and she herself is hiring so shameless plug for you. Thank you. Yeah, I hope I hope that you find the best fit. But hey for all of you that have joined us to get today. Thank you and for those of you that might be watching on one of our many streaming platforms thank you for joining us as well. And join us back tomorrow but as we end every episode we want to remind you, especially after today's conversation right to stay well, so you can continue to do well. Thank you Katie.