 Okay, good morning. Welcome back everyone to BC310 Church and Ministry Administration. We've been talking about church staff management and we're just interacting around in some questions that students are asking. I'm just going to go a little forward in our course content and then we'll take up any additional questions that come. So what we were talking about earlier today in the session was about employee management. Part of that is employee motivation. We know how do you motivate people, our church staff to keep up the good work after sharing different thoughts. Let's go forward. So we also need to address or reduce demotivators. What are the things that demotivate people? One is employee turnover. That means when every time somebody leaves the organization, there are people wondering why is this person leaving, what happened, so on and so forth. That is true, especially when it's a small organization. If it's a big organization, you've got thousands of people, people won't even notice when somebody comes and goes. But in a small organization, you can notice if somebody has this leaving. So what we try to do is of course we have to handle this situation very well when somebody is leaving because we celebrate them. That means on their last day of work, we will have a time of, we cut the cake, we say thank you for your time with us. We talk about what they have contributed to the organization and we let them share about their experience with the organization and what they're going to do next. Now, of course, people will leave for many reasons. Sometimes people leave because maybe they have a better opportunity somewhere else. Many times in a church organization, people leave because they want to go and start their own ministries, which is fine. So we encourage that. So when people want to go and maybe they want to go start a church somewhere, they want to start their own ministry, we pray for them, we bless them, we send them out. Or sometimes they may go to do the further studies. They want to study something more, whatever. So many reasons out there. Sometimes they go abroad. So there are people who work with us and now they're in other parts of the world. They've gone overseas, they're doing ministry overseas. So many reasons, whatever reasons they have, when they leave the organization, we try to make it a very pleasant experience. We let them share with everyone what they're planning to do, where they're going, so on. So then people realize that when somebody's leaving, it's not a bad thing. It's just that they are moving on into their next phase of their journey and their walk with God and we can celebrate that. We can bless them as they go. Another demotivator is if the workplace culture is very difficult. We will talk about workplace culture in another lesson, but if the workplace culture is very stressful, it's very demanding, it's very authoritative or authoritarian, it's very demeaning, people don't feel good, then that can be a very, it can be a big demotivator. People don't want to work in such an organization, they may just put up with it because they need to get paid or something, but it's not a good motivator. Sometimes reorganization can demotivate people. So when you're moving people around, it's very discomforting because we all like our own spaces, we all like our own, our quote unquote comfort zones, but when you want to reorganize and say, hey, we need to reorganize, people can get upset. So that's a big demotivator as well, but then you try to do the best you can. One is you try to explain to people why you are reorganizing it. Hopefully they've understand. Secondly, the people who are being reassigned roles, I usually like try to tell them, I try to talk to them first and tell them, look, we have to rearrange or reorganize, reassign your roles. Hopefully you get to buy it. Sometimes they are willing. Sometimes you have to reorganize and there's no choice because the good of the organization is more important than their personal interests. So somebody will be very comfortable in one role, but then you really need to move them to another role. And maybe the outcome is not as it should be so on. And so you're reorganizing it. Of course, people don't like it, but then sometimes you have to do it for the good of the organization. So that can be a demotivator for some people. So we have to try and handle it the best we can. I'm not saying it's always pleasant. It is sometimes difficult, but it has to be done when you're looking at the big picture. Another demotivator can be increased workload. Sometimes if there's too much for somebody to carry, they can feel demotivated. So we try to look at how much work is going on people. We try to distribute the workload. We try to bring in more staff so that we have more people to carry the workload. So that's something we'd be very sensitive about. And sometimes people could just be demotivated because of personal challenges. They may be going through things, difficulties in their personal life. So this is where, because we're a church, we can also step in and try and address those matters to the best we can so that they're able to do well at work. So I just mentioned these because these are things that we need to be very careful about and so that people have a, continue to stay motivated when they work. From time to time, at least once a year, it's nice to do, it's good to do what we refer to as an employee satisfaction or a job satisfaction survey. I will share a sample of that with you. It's just a document where you can set it up as a Google form and people can fill it up anonymously to give feedback on how happy or how satisfied they are. So usually we will do it at the end of the year in November, December, so that people can just fill it up and say, this is how, so we can also learn on what areas we have to improve as an organization. It's an anonymous way for people to give feedback and it's a way for you to know are people happy working in the organization or to get a feedback. It's a good thing. And so I will share the sample with you. Maybe I can, I can just open the document. Just give me a minute, please. Okay, here you are. I'm sorry, I'm just opening up this sample job satisfaction. Let me share it. All right, so sample job satisfaction. So this is just a Word document that I'm going to, I'll upload it and so what you can do is this is an anonymous thing. We set it up as a Google form where there are these 30 simple questions and people can give an answer based on a scale, one to five, they can rate themselves. And basic question, I like to go to work on Monday. I feel positive. I have energy at each workday or energy to other things. My interactions are positive. I have good friends at work. I feel valued in the firm that work, so on. So just general questions. I feel I'm fairly compensated. My manager reviews my progress, etc. And then they, and so if they get a good rating, that means they have a great job. If you have this rating, you have a good job. I think last year when we did this, if I remember correctly, everybody scored within this range. All our staff scored within these two categories. Most of them were here, 120 to 150. Some of them were here, 91 to 120. So that was last year. So we'll do this again this year. We can see where things are, how things are going and get some feedback. So just doing a little job satisfaction survey helps us, you know, know where things are, know where the staff, how the staff are feeling about the organization. Oops, I wanted to share this. Sorry. Let me stop. Yeah, Max, do you have a question? Go ahead. Max, do you have a question? Or maybe not. Okay, let's go back to Christopher, you have a question. Go ahead. Oh, yes, I have a few questions. One is with regards to staff attrition where staff, I mean, have there been cases where staff go to other churches or and vice-versa in the sense that you know, staff from other churches want to work with this DPC? Has that happened and how is that handled? That's the first question. And the second one is with the case opening, we discussed a little bit in some earlier class with regards to itinerant pastors. You have mentioned, I think, that there are already some within ATC. And I just wanted to understand is, you know, how does this work? Is there any sort of support and, you know, moderate that sort of, you know, helps these these kind of pastors? Okay, good questions. So first question. Have any of our staff gone left APC, gone to other churches, and do other people from other churches want to work for APC? So the answer to both is yes. We've had people who have been part of APC church staff, and they some have gone and started their own church, their own ministry. I mean, just just before the pandemic, I think 20, oh, 2019, you know, one of our pastors decided to go and start a church. So we blessed him and sent last year, another of our staff last year or this year, early this year, early this year in February, another one of our staff wanted to go out and started started ministry. So we blessed him and sent him. So there are people who from APC would go and start their ministries or maybe would go and work for another Christian organization or other organization. So that has, it happens, answers yes. And do we have people from other churches applying? Yeah, we have lots of applications from people from other churches who apply because all our job positions are posted on our website. We constantly, I think almost every day, we keep saving resumes from people from across the country, from, or from either even within our city who are part of other churches. Now, when we interview people, especially when they are part of other churches in our city, when if they're from outside the city, it's okay because they have to relocate it won't be a problem. But if they are part of another church in our city, we are very, very careful because and all of this will happen in the interview process itself. One is we are careful because we don't want to be maybe interviewing them for a job and then because of a job, they will feel sometimes they feel pressured to leave their church and come and work with us and join a PC. So we don't want that to happen. We don't want to create an ill feeling between churches just because a person is coming to work for us. So we are very careful. We try to handle it very openly. So we ask them, you know, does your pastor know you're applying here? Would your pastor be okay? How are you going to handle this whole thing? If you're working for a PC and you're part of another church or and in some cases, you know, we will require them to be part of the church as well because they, you know, if it requires that in some cases, it's not required. For example, currently, we have, I'm trying to think now, we have one person who is part of our media team. He's actually a member of another church and he continues to be a member of that church, but he's part of our church media team. So he works so he as a book, he works for us. But he's actually part he belongs to another local church, right? In there are some and I can think of maybe two people right now who, when they when they started working for a PC, they made a choice to move them and their families to work for a PC. So that was not something we forced. We were fine with them. You know, we never even talked to them about moving churches, you know, because so one one was in the IT department. So it doesn't matter for us. As long as he works Monday to Friday, you know, does their his IT work, it doesn't matter to us that he belongs to another church. So it wasn't of any issue. But he just chose to move. Again, another person was part of the media team. The only thing was his work involved here required him to be at location on Sundays. That was a video production. So it kind of was like a forced thing because of his work. He had to, you know, paper. So but he's having fun. He's enjoying his time here. Similarly, one about audio engineers. We did not force them. We was like, hey, your work involves you to be here on Sunday, but where you go to church is your entirely your choice. We're not forcing you and are you okay? And so eventually he, you know, he's, he kind of kind of came in to a PC. So it is a very sensitive matter. And sometimes we don't hire people, even if they are good. If it's going to disturb, you know, this whole dynamic between us and another church in the city, if you feel like, you know, so Sunday's okay, let's not do this because it may affect our relations. So let's not, you know, bring that person on, especially if they're already serving in that church. And if you bring them in to serve at APC, it would kind of interfere with that. So we are very careful. If they're from outside the city, you know, it's not a problem because we are not disturbing anything with their local church. I hope I answered your question, Chris, for the, yeah. The second question, which has to do with itinerant ministers. Yeah. So we have itinerant ministers. Actually, right now we have, let me see. I think two people who are being supported, two or three were supported this way. That means they are not pastors with APC. They are more like a traveling, they travel and minister. They have graduated from our Bible college. So we know them. They studied with us, but they're not pastoring their itinerant. And yeah, one of them, you know, we have been, he graduated with from our Bible college many years ago. I think maybe 2008, 2009, something like that, long time ago. So from that time, we've been supporting him every month. This is just our support financially for his ministry. Whatever he gets, like from his preaching and all that, it's completely his. We don't interfere with that. We helped him create a legal organization for his ministry so that, you know, he could have a legal organization. And then, so every month, every month, we have an online pastors meeting. That means all our APC pastors and itinerant ministers. So actually, I think we're doing for four people. I don't know the exact number, but I think they're doing for people who are like these itinerant. We just support them and they have their own ministry. So we have our outreach pastors. That means they have an APC church, but we also have people like this who are doing their own ministry, but we are supporting them. So every month, it's usually the third Saturday of the month. I'd rather, I should say, it is always the third Saturday of the month. We have an online meeting so they can connect with us because they're all across the country. And so it's a time for fellowship and just encouragement. And then we keep in touch with them. You know, so we not only just give them money, but we also keep in touch. How are you doing? He would message me, report to me like just, okay, I'm traveling here. I'm in the city. I'm having these meetings like that. It's not like we control them. We don't control them. It's more of a relationship. We support them and they just share with us progress of their ministry and so on. And then any time he needs help, if he needs resources, he needs guidance, or these people, they would call and we talk to them, encourage them. That's how it works. I hope I answered your question. Ah, yes. Just on the first question, I mean, this may be a bit sensitive, but in case there are churches that could be questionable from a doctrinal point of view or just on how they operate. And if there are staff who want to move from that church to a PC, again, it's not about trying to get them to move from the existing church, but because they really feel convinced that it is not the right place for them to be at, and they would like to work with a PC rather than be in a church, which is not really perhaps Christian or following the right principles. Hmm. Yeah, that's something I'm trying to think if we have had a case like that. To my recollection at this point, I don't think we've run into that situation where, you know, but it's been, you know, like what to say, they're coming from something that's questionable. I don't think we've actually, at least to my recollection at this moment, I don't think we've run into that kind of a situation, but definitely we would be careful. We would be careful. And if there's any doubt, then we wouldn't hire them, you know, we wouldn't hire them because we don't want them to come in and cause confusion, of course. So we would be careful. Yeah. All right. Okay, let me see now. And let's quickly go to the questions in the chat. Kennedy, do you have elective positions? How do you handle that? And is it biblical? Kennedy, we do not. Like none of our positions are elected. So it's more like, you know, people, church staff are hired based on their skills and capabilities. And like we said, the interview process, we will talk about volunteers, even volunteers are just selected on their willingness and on their skills and them willing to, you know, serve. So no positions are elected. We don't do it. Is it biblical? Hmm. I haven't thought too much about this, but I can just give you my first reaction. I feel that, let me say, especially in a church setting, in a church or a Christian ministry setting, I feel what's important is God's selection. So God, you know, God, God calls people, God anoints people, God calls them to certain ministry. Man recognizes that calling and affirms that calling. But it's God who calls people. Now, in the recognition process, it's good to have consensus. That means it's good to have, you know, maybe two or three people affirm that. Hey, yeah, you are called to this position. Go for it. Yeah. So that's consensus. But I don't like the idea of voting or, you know, saying like, okay, let's see how many votes this person got. I don't like that. I'm just giving you my thoughts, my initial reaction. I haven't necessarily studied the Bible on this whole thing. But my feeling, my thought is, from my understanding, is God calls people, man recognizes and affirms that. That's it. There's no election or anything like that. And it's good if two or three witnesses will affirm that calling, you know, that confirms that there's a consensus that, yeah, you're called by God. Go for it. Yeah, that's my, that would be my response. Um, Maxon, my question is, you also fill on the survey form annually. Maxon, I don't, because I set up the questions. I don't want to fill it up. But I don't do that annual survey form. Harrison, is it possible to work for APC from my country? I would say in 2023, Harrison, we're going to set things up so that people can do that. Next year 2023, we will be organizationally ready for something like that. At the moment, it's, I mean, people can volunteer, but we're not able to send money off. We're not able to pay people. That's why we, we, we can't do that. But 2023, we will be able to do it again. Abraham, pass it please. What are the responses of your first staff? What is your advice on having staff before more members come in or wait till more members come in? Okay. So, you know, just in our journey, when we go back to 2001, and so in 2001, when we started the church, we had no staff. It was just like everybody, including me, we all were working as volunteers. In 2002 is when we had our first staff, but actually the staff was paid by the business. So he was actually paid by the business, but he was giving half of his time for doing church work. So he was not, he was not like paid by the church. His salary came from the business that we had, but he was giving half of his time to do church administrative work. So our first person whom we had was an admin person who would handle, you know, the admin work for the church, like booking the halls, making payments for things, all those kinds of, you know, admin work. And he was the first person and church staff, but he was like his salary didn't come initially, salary didn't come from the church. Later on, he became full-time with the church because it required so much of work, so much of his time, then he moved him. So the first person that we hired was an admin person who was paid, eventually was paid fully by the church. His time was dedicated. He would handle a lot of admin work for the church. Then subsequently, we had a children's church pastor who was part-time. And later on, he became full-time. So he started off part-time because it was just a little bit of work that we needed for children's church. And eventually, when it became more, he became a full-time pastor. Then we had, you know, then I think the next person was Pastor Jay Kumar who joined us. He's still with us. He joined us. Pastor Jay Kumar joined us initially as the head of administration. He joined us as an administrative officer. And then later on, he moved into more of a pastoral worship, pastor role. Then we also had, next, we had a youth pastor and a worship pastor join us. So slowly, over time, you know, I would say after four or five years, we had Pastor Jay Kumar join us, then the youth pastor joined us like that. So it, we built gradually over time. Is it okay? Okay. Thank you, sir. Okay. Thank you. All right. Kennedy, how do you handle succession plans and the events of death? Because I see churches by two when the leader dies. Good question. So this is part of what we, we will be talking about later. But I'll just mention it very briefly. So very important as a leader is you need to organize in such a way that the ministry can be independent of you. Right. So you need to raise up many leaders around you. Right. And then the goal is to make yourself no longer needed in the ministry. Of course, you're going to be serving God as long as God gives you life on earth. Of course, you're going to be serving God. You're going to be faithful. But you got to create the organization in such a way that even if you are not there, things will go forward, continue forward. So that's your goal as a leader, as a pastor. And the sooner you accomplish that, the better it is. Now, it's not easy to do. Right. So for example, today, we are 22 years into or 21 or 22 years since we started APC. I'm still leading. I'm still doing many things. But at least we are in a better place. That means there are more leaders around us and different levels. So there are our pastoral team, then there's a next level of people. You know, they're typically they're serving novice youth pastors, pastors of teen churches, and there are others who are going around preaching. I've intentionally like intensely nurturing them. And there's one more level below them of people that I'm intentionally nurturing. So I usually will call them up to to do the declaration on Sunday. You know, they'll come, I'll say I'll give you three minutes, you come and do the declaration, they'll come and do it. But actually, these are leaders that we are preparing for the future. So there are three levels of leaders at the moment that are being prepared. So that the idea is, if I'm no longer there, at least there are three levels of leaders after me who've to some extent been prepared. And and that's how we're working, right? So not all of them, it's not in a mature state right now. But I hope that within the next five years, all these leaders will be in a mature place. And then in five years, I won't be needed. You know, that means everything at APC can go on without me. It doesn't mean I'm going to go away. I will serve to the best I can as long as, you know, I'm there. But the idea is, these leaders will be mature. They will be in a better place. And if there's a need, they'll be starting. And we're talking about three levels, right? So so even if the first level has to retire, there'll be another level who will move up. And in fact, my my goal is that at some point, and I had planned that so this, I had shared this plan with the church, with the church, maybe I forget which year it was in 20, 20, 11 or 12 or something. I said that that, you know, in the next 10 years, we should we will have all these leaders in place that so that, you know, 10 years from now, I can move out and actually hand over the leadership. So I don't need to be leading anymore. The next level of leadership, that means today these people will be in their, you know, maybe in their early 30s, they will be, you know, in a position to take over that I can just hand it off to them. So that means they will be more closer to their 40s. And they will be ready to take over leadership and they can lead for the next 20 years. So that's the plan. So it's, you know, I can step aside. Does it mean I will stop serving God? I will still serve God, but not as a leader. I will just serve God without the role of a leader. But the role of a leader will be given to somebody who has been nurtured, who will be in their, you know, somewhere around their 40s, they could be a little younger or a little older. It's okay. But they have been nurtured and they will take over the leadership. And I can be on the side just serving under them. So that's what we are working towards. The plan is, you know, so we have to work like that as leaders and we will talk about it later towards the end of the course, that you need to plan so that you're raising up three levels of leaders after you. It takes time. It's not going to happen overnight. And so you have to nurture them, give them responsibility, talk to them and nurture them. Now always nurture a group of people. So for example, you know, right now we call them youth leaders. I've picked out about 12 to 15 of them. They're all in their 20s, whom that's the third level, you know, and we give them small things. They come and do the declaration and they carry small, small responsibilities. But they're all in their 20s. But we're nurturing them as the whole group because some of them may leave, right? They'll get married. They will move somewhere else. They may get a job. Some other part of the world, they'll go. So you need to have a group because not all of them will be there 10 years from now, 20 years from now, because, you know, various things in life will cost them to move. But you do your best to nurture all of them. And then whoever stays, you know, they will step into those leadership positions. If they go to different parts of the world, they will serve God wherever they go. So nothing is lost, nothing is wasted. I hope I answered your question. Okay. All right. Okay, so let's see where we are now. We were doing this. Okay. Okay, let me just finish this and then we'll close for today. So there's also an annual planning document, you know, it's basically a document that people fill up. So we do this usually in November, December every year. So people will fill this document up. And it will be reviewed by whoever is overseeing them. And they reviewed themselves for the previous year, sorry, for the current year, and they planned for the next year. So we let each one do it. And then whoever is their team leader will review it and, you know, discuss it with them. We do regular review meetings. So with the pastors, I usually connect. So we do have a pastoral team meeting, which is more of a group meeting once a month. But then I will meet one on one with them, typically once a month. Sometimes I might miss my monthly meeting because there's so many pastors, so many people. But generally, I will meet with them once a month, but definitely within every two months. So I talk with, you know, we talk about what's happening in the area of ministry, so on, so forth, to review progress. If there are underperforming employees, that's a challenge. We will have to, you know, I think I talk about this a little later, we will have to give them feedback. We have to find out what is causing them to not perform, to not do well. We have to try to help them perform. Maybe they don't have the tools, maybe they're not motivated, maybe they're in the wrong place, maybe they don't have the skills, you know, try to help them identify why they're underperforming, try to address it. If, and then we have to, you know, at some point, we may have to terminate them if they're not changing, if they're not improving performance. I'll talk a little bit about that later. When there are difficult matters, very important, have face-to-face meetings. So when somebody is not doing things the way they should be doing, try not to address it through an email, try not to address it through a phone call, best is to try and address it in a face-to-face meeting. Now, if a face-to-face meeting is not possible, then you'd look at the next best option, which may be, you know, an online video call or a phone call and an email would be, of course, the last option. Okay. The reason is, in a face-to-face meeting, you can hear them out. They may be able to explain, maybe, you know, we misunderstood them. Maybe we don't know what are some of the challenges they're going through at that time. So it's always good to have a face-to-face meeting to address difficult situations. You know, somebody didn't do something right. Somebody didn't, you know, depending on the seriousness of the matter. But let's assume there's a difficult matter. As far as possible, sit face-to-face, talk, let them share their thoughts, listen, do more listening than talking and try to understand what's going on. And then you address the matter. If, you know, and then so the email or an indirect approach is always the last approach. But after the face-to-face meeting, then important is to put everything in writing because to say that, you know, this is what we discussed. This is what we agreed to. This is what you said you will do. This is the timeframe in which you will do it. Now put it down in an email. So address the matter in a face-to-face meeting, but document everything what was discussed in an email so that nobody can say, oh, I forgot. I didn't know it wasn't clear, things like that, you know, which generally happens. So discuss it with the person, put it in writing. Okay, maybe I will stop here. This we'll get into next week talking about how to develop employees and so on. I don't want to force too much today. So we discovered actually just one part which is employee management in these two lectures, how to motivate them, addressing demotivators and just a few other things and working with staff. Okay. And I know we did a lot of question answers today. Is everybody okay? Everybody's following? Everybody's getting these ideas? Any questions before we close? Okay, Sri Kumar, please go ahead. Sir, I just want to know that what it means, put everything in writing once again. Yeah, so let's say suppose, you know, I have a personal meeting, face to face meeting with one person. We discuss, you know, I address the matter, I say, hey, you know, you said you will get this, you will do these things, it's not done or whatever, whatever the difficult situation was, why did you treat that person like that? Or why did you interact with that person and whatever the difficult situation, we address it, we talk, they share their ideas, we share, then we agree to certain things, we say, okay, you know, you know, see, we will not be able to accept this kind of behavior. So you need to change and this is what you will do so on so forth. So we agree to it and then we agree, you know, we say, okay, in the next three months, we're going to do these things. We agree. So whatever we have discussed verbally, we need to put it in writing, that means put it in an email. And so usually I will send them an email and copy our HR or the HR person may be in the meeting. So the HR person may write the email and, you know, send it to them and copy me. That means basically we are writing, documenting what was discussed in an email so that everything is recorded and nobody forgets what we have agreed to. Thank you, sir. Yeah. Anything else? Any other questions? Employee management? Christopher, go ahead, please. All right, yes, Pastor. So just a, I guess a question with regards to, you know, last 21 years, in the area of staff development, you could just maybe just at a high level, just let us know what are some of the one or two points that I think really worked well and, you know, one or two points that, you know, you think may have been detrimental to, you know, to cause the church if there was any, I mean, just something for just the learning exercise for us. So if you just provide us some insights in that. Yeah, so yeah, I must admit that, you know, the last 21 years has been a learning process. Like whatever I'm sharing with you today, I did not know 21 years ago, right? I had no idea because we've never done it before. And, you know, you can't learn these things in management books. I mean, some things, of course, are general management practices, which you can learn, but you can always read it in books, but when you're actually doing it in practice, that's a totally different experience. So, and then, you know, to do it in a church context, to do it in a Christian setting, you know, is just something very different. And so I have to say that I did not know whatever I know today. I definitely did not know 21 years ago when we were starting and when we were growing. I didn't know. I made a lot of mistakes. Like for example, today I'm telling you have face-to-face meeting. I made mistakes. I fired people on emails. I fired some of our staff by just sending them an email, you know, and that was, it was so bad. It was a big mistake I made in the early days, in the early days. I thought, okay, I'll just send them an email saying, hey, your work is not good. I've given you three warnings. It's over now. Fired. But it was bad. I should not have done that. So I made those mistakes. So today I can tell you a do face-to-face meeting first. Email is the last resort. Why? And the reason I say it is because I made those mistakes. And it was not good. Anyway, so honestly, you know, today we may sound very nice. I'm telling you all these nice things. But I can tell you I made a lot of mistakes in these 21 years. And I learned many of these things the hard way. When it comes to, you know, the staff development and, and I just, the good and the bad, you just want to do things if I were to pick out. I think the bad, or let me say the good thing, the thing that really I feel is, you know, I just my observation, just my learning in the 21 years in church setting, the thing that I've, that I feel really motivates people is when they are empowered, when they are given the freedom, when they're given ownership of their area of ministry, you know, we say like, look, you're in charge. You go for it. We'll back, you know, we support you and encourage you. And so I see that then they're really motivated. They're really excited. They can do it. And so I see that or at least I see, you know, you're in charge of go for it. You've got to have ideas. We'll encourage you go for it. So now when we give it to their hands and then say, okay, go for it, that really motivates them and they make the effort to learn new things, explore new things, come up with new ideas and say, Hey, we can do it like this. We can do it like that. And, you know, they, they basically our develop themselves, they stretch themselves, they acquire new skills, they come up with new ideas. And so that's one side. But sadly, almost in contrast to that, I see also complacency. That means the, and this is the dangerous side. The dangerous side is people become very complacent. That means they're like, okay, I just do my little thing. And we have to keep pushing them, keep pushing them. That becomes so difficult. It's a very, very difficult thing. So on the one hand, there are people, you give them ownership and they're really excited. They just, just go all out for it. On the other hand, you also find people who become very complacent. And you have to keep pushing them. You have to keep thinking for them. You have to keep prodding them. And then I feel it's a big problem. Now, they are good people. I'm not saying they are not good people. They're good people. They love God and they love, they love, they love God, they're good people. But it says that there is no fire. There's no motivation. There is no drive as opposed to this. Now you've done the same thing for both. You know, you've entrusted the ministry to them. You are empowered them. You're saying, go for it. I'll back you up. And you find both these kinds of people. And this complacency is a very difficult thing to deal with because you can't find fault with their character. They're good people. You can't find fault with their love for God. They love God. It's where they're just missing the fire to take things forward. And that's a challenge, yeah, I would say. So these are just one of them. Of course, there are a lot of other good things and challenges are there. But I just mentioned these two. Okay. Thank you for all your questions. Thanks for the interactions. We will continue this next week talking about church staff management. And the next lesson after this is on volunteer management. That's again, a very big area. And there are a lot of, you know, difficult sides to that in managing volunteers. How do you take care of them? How do you motivate them? You know, motivating volunteers is again, it's not the same as motivating staff, church staff. And so that's a totally different area which we need to look at and we will talk about next week. Okay, let's close in prayer. May I request somebody to please pray and then dismiss us. Anybody can pray. Still can we pray? Go ahead. Thank you. Precious Father, we thank you and praise you for this wonderful day which you have given to us about. Once again, we thank you for the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, what we received today. We pray that Father God, none of these word of Father God, Lord Master, lost from us. But Father, we pray, help us to preserve it for Lord Master in our life, in our heart in such a way that Father, when we move ahead, Father, let these words be an inspiration, these words enlighten our understanding that these words of Father God sharpen our knowledge and wisdom of Father God. We once again thank you, Father God, for using your servant. We thank you, Father God, that your Holy Spirit is preparing each one of our heart to build your kingdom. Once again, we ask you that cover each one of us under your precious blood and Lord Master strengthen us so that we can able to build your kingdom, Lord the way how you are planning for Father God. All the glory on our end, praises belongs to you. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Thank you so much. Amen. Amen. Thank you everyone. Have a good rest of the day. Have a good weekend. Yeah, see you soon. God bless. Bye now. Thank you, Pastor. Thank you, everybody. Thank you.