 So, we dive into our first panel session for the day and the session will be moderated by Mr. Gaurav Paava, Vice President Sales, we serve, let's welcome our panelist, Mr. Gujjot Shah Singh, Senior Vice President and National Media Head, Densu Webchutney, along with Mr. Nishit Srivastava, CEO, Cuberoot Technologies, along with Ms. Kanika Mittal, Digital Leader. Well, this discussion is going to be about data collection versus data privacy and it's going to tell us as to where we draw the line, where we draw the boundary. I request that we please put our hands together to welcome all our esteemed panelists, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much for taking out your precious time to be with us here today and we look forward to listening to you. So, welcome everyone. I think what we are going to discuss today at this panel discussion is very, very pertinent topic. This is about, you know, data collection versus data privacy and where do we draw the line. I think in the morning session, Mr. Badra just gave us glimpses about the digital transformation that we are actually seeing and what we see that as a click of a button, we are buying products, we are consuming a lot of content online, we are expressing our views, opinion with our friends, with the world at large. But what is really happening at the back end, there is a big data machinery, okay, which is working, trying to maneuver us to some desired results by apprehending certain information that we've left or we have shared, you know, intentionally or inadvertently with others. So there is a growing, you know, businesses are evolving and somewhere it is considered very important for businesses because of the, you know, diminishing loyalty that they are seeing from consumers, you know, to constantly innovate and as a result of that, they really are looking at a lot of data points that they can get about their customers. But at the same time, I think there is a proliferation of such businesses who are constantly looking out and searching for more and more insights about its consumers. So I think with keeping this in mind, looking at this aspect, while there is a value in collecting consumer data, how could all this be made less invasive? So I would like to invite, I think, some comments from Gujarat because I think he comes with a background understanding the consumer's perspective and maybe you could open the discussion here, Gujarat. Thank you. Thank you, Gaurav. I think more than just the consumer's perspective, I think we, none of us in the industry would have been successful if you wouldn't have cared about our consumer today. And what I really feel, how to make it less invasive is the only way about that is, I feel, is about telling the customer upfront about where the data is going to be used. Gaurav just mentioned about at times we end up leaving our data behind knowingly, at times unknowingly. I think all of that is happening because we're leaving that one tick mark that we're collecting your data right at the bottom of the screen or somewhere hidden in the screen. I think that's something that we really need to get rid of. Speaking from the consumer's shoes, I think it's very important as a consumer that we should know where our data is getting collected and where is it going to be used. So I think it's very important that we, in this entire, you know, in this entire zone of collecting so much of data, it's important that we move towards consent-based marketing where there is an explicit consent that's been taken from the consumers of where my data will be used. Because if given a choice to me of leaving my data and not leaving my data behind, I need to leave my data behind for me to be convenient about accessing internet today. So that's important for me. So I think consent-based marketing is important as a consumer for me to proceed further in the way I explore things on web. Sure. So Kanika, would you like to add? Yeah, I'd love to and I really like the point that you made about consent marketing. But you know, even before I address that, can I just take a minute to say how nice it is just to be back, like, you know, to a hall that is full of people. It's so heartwarming. And to feel the mic in the hand and to feel the player of the lights on the face, it's been like more than two years. So just, I just want to begin by saying a huge thanks to the organizers. It's just great to be here in a hall full of people. Moving back to the topic here that the panel is discussing, I just want to go a step further to what my esteemed panelist just said and add that it depends also on what are the various sources of data that a marketer is using. One, of course, are the channels that is developed and used and maintained by the marketer themselves where consent becomes hugely important. But also at the same time, they're also buying data. They're also interacting with different forms of agencies and partnerships to get the kind of data they need to deliver the right ROI for the business. And I think that's where having a very strong sense of responsibility and a strong sense of balance becomes extremely critical. Many of you are marketers in this room and I'm very sure that you feel the pressure to deliver on ROI, especially when budgets are constrained because your behavior has changed following the pandemic. And in that pressure, there could be a tendency to quickly go after the right kind of data. But I think in that speed of trying to get the data quickly, it's also important to stand back, reflect and very responsibly get the right data and check with your different partners that what are the balances that they have in place? What kind of consent are they taking? Is the consumer aware? How is the data being used? And then kind of take a step forward and use the data responsibly. So I feel like there has to be a strong balance between consent-based marketing that a marketer engages with on their own. But at the same time that the data that they procure, they have to be extra cautious and hold their partners accountable to extremely high standards. Right. Thank you. That was an interesting perspective. So you know, when I really look at what are we really leaving behind as footprints on digital media, our financial information is there, our health records are there. If there is a breach here and there, people panic. And we have seen instances in the past that when the businesses, they are collecting data. They may not be their consumer businesses. However, they're collecting data. They need to really rely on certain partners technology platforms to put it in a perspective to enable them to realize the data properly. And as I said, there could be certain mistakes also that may happen. And the data breaches happen and the panic is there. What needs to be done there when you're talking about mitigating that suspicion or building trust as it is, this is very important. How marketers do that? How you, Nishit, you're a part of a company that manages data of millions of people and help marketers also kind of have deeper insights about their audiences, data-based offerings. Where do you see how do you see this mitigation happening? Thank you, Gaurav. Good afternoon, everybody. As far as your question is concerned, I see regulators and policy makers have a very great role to play. And what we have seen in this last five to six years, the laws and policies in India has still not been populated. The way it has been done in the western countries. So one of the very popular compliance, which has been followed worldwide is GDPR compliance in the European Union. And that is the zenith of the compliance and the policies what our data store, how the data needs to be stored, how it needs to be secured, how it needs to be processed. And there it has been clearly stated that the control should be branded given to the consumer. Most of the times when we are talking to our clients or agencies or marketers, for that matter, we see that that marketers claim that they are the owners of the data for the consumers. Because if you have bought certain product on, let's say, an enormous website, the marketers of the brand assume that they have acquired consumer data also. But as per the policies regulators, it should be explicitly mentioned. And the controls should be given back to the consumer that how that data will be branded by that brand or by that infamous portal. So a lot of things needs to be done here. I see there's a lot of scope here. And one thing is that we are already working with the policy makers, the forums, and they are thinking on it. And you see that all the years, those policies will also be complicated. Ending, you would want the policy. Yeah, that is what I am asking. I'm just talking about bombs here, I think, yeah, cannon bombs, yeah. I just want to ask the policy aspect of it, which is very critical, right? Like the way he said around the creation of the policy and the right implementation of the policy. But also the point of the consumer, at what point does he sort of, you know, reach to certain terms and conditions also matters. Typically, our terms and conditions related to consent of sharing data are sliding in, or sliding on right at the end of the contract, or when you are interested in buying somebody or subscribing to somebody, all of these things come right at the end. And by the time you are pretty much, you know, already at the end of your decision making stage, so you pretty much give what is already for consent, you just give the consent without thinking, or you do it because you are totally not fair to the choice at that sometimes. You want to choose convenience as you know that everything is coming at a price, but you just are left a bit conner and so you go ahead and you give the consent without really wanting to give it. I think the onus of, you know, various industry bodies and all of us also matters in thinking this particular aspect, a little bit more easier for the consumer, when choice to, you know, give the data or not give the data, is actually asked to the consumer at the right time, and not slid in at a point where the consumer will have effective time to make the choice, or they simply go through it in some way. So I think the experience, if I may say, goes hand in hand with policy on really having consumers let us use their data the right way. Does that make sense? Sure, absolutely. And just to add further to that and possibly take your opinion about it, what would you think, I mean, what if there's a regulation and I think somewhere regulator also needs to play a part? You know, the consumer needs to be given enough part, a part to see that what brands are using, what kind of a data about them that the brands are using. So different brands or different categories have, you know, different policy policies. So what you actually, you know, allow a bank to see or your stock broker to see, you may not want a retailer to see. Okay, so somewhere I think that if a regulator also could play a part and, you know, and there's a mechanism which is set up where consumers at large can go across many merchants or, you know, online platform and figure out that what is the kind of a data that those merchants or those platforms have about them and, you know, they have to, they have all the right to revoke the permissions or allow it. So what do you think, Nishit, in terms of the regulator, you know, aspect, where does it come from, what kind of a rule that a regulator could play? You talked about, I think, international laws. How involved we are here right now and what needs to be done? It's not like that we don't have laws, existing laws on the desk. We have ID Act and, you know, there are certainly 1559 laws which are already informed, you know. Why not there are experts on the, you know, law, legal aspects, and as this came out, also, that don't take any kind of, you know, whatever I say, you know, that it is carbon stone. Now, I think it's, as far as the laws and the population is concerned, I think the need of the R and the self-regulation, okay. So we need to, you know, move forward ethically and, you know, in an ethical manner, where we give the control back to the user. There's kind of information, I'm sure that most of the people, you know, sitting in the audience, they don't have any problem with non-personal, undefiled information, that we call it non-PI information, is stored and secured. But the moment it comes to the personally undefiled and identifiable information, it's called PI information coming in place and we, you know, most of the brand of technology company like us, we start storing your personally undefiled information and then this issue starts coming in. So as far as the privacy policy and the usage policy of the website, it should explicitly mention that, you know, what kind of personal, undefiled information that brand or the website or the publisher is using and how it is processing that data. So as long as, you know, as Pujo also mentioned the issue, as long as Sanjeev is, you know, informed and he is dead in a transparent manner, I think that most of the, you know, people, they don't have an issue. There was a study done by Sanjeev in 2016 and it may be said that 70% of the people, they were not having an issue, as long as they were, you know, informed, transparently about all the data is in process. You can just use that process, that PI information. Pujo? I love the idea, Gaurav, that she's involved. In fact, you can come after, not just bring it up and build on it. I believe Sanjeev, anyone, Gaurav, can find you to collaborate. I think what you were saying is almost like an aggregator website or an aggregator app. Like you have Trekk, for example, where all your gankas are aggregated and you know exactly, you know, what pieces connect to what is not. Similarly, there's an aggregation somewhere that can be done through a technology company where you must go in, belong to your profile and you see what kind of data is being shared of what kinds of aggregations, whether it's coach media or e-commerce or management or otherwise. And you actually have an off and on battle there that allows you to choose what kind of data you're seeking in your life, what you want to protect and what you want to give. I think that could be brilliant and absolutely destructive. And hopefully, someone in the audience will get inspired and maybe pick that for anything. Like, you know, we have provisions that in our phones, you know, what kind of provisions we try to work all apps. So something similar from a platform perspective. Gurjo, I just wanted to bring this up for you. There's a causal relationship between our actions, our data, and the far-reaching effects, okay? And that's still obscure at this point in time. Should consumers be actually, again, taking a different view about what we are discussing here, but should consumers be really told how the data is being used? Would they not get the chills once they actually get to know what all the information about them is going to be in the world by then or by certain companies? Yeah, so I think I'll first connect a lot backwards in what we've been talking about, giving the control back to the consumer or giving the authority back to the consumer. I don't think there's any giving back. It always stays with the consumer. Whatever data we leave behind as consumers, it's the data of the consumer. Well, I've been a marketer myself for 12 years, but I don't think so any of us would have succeeded if we would have not cared about our consumers like I mentioned earlier, but the control very much stays with the consumer. And I feel that as a consumer, if not tomorrow, see, digital today is not the fourth or the fifth or the sixth preferred medium. As we move along, we've seen humanity and we've seen a mega shift, and we know digital is not just about marketing anymore. It's how our life is being into existence, right? So digital is the most preferred medium. Sooner or later, we all have to accept the transparency. Look at why GDPR laws were created. Europeans, you know, they were very well aware about their laws, which is where they pointed out, hey, why is my data or why are the permissions being taken explicitly? Which is why all over the world, it is now being formed as a GDPR policy. So the faster marketers and brands accept this that you're gonna be telling upfront where my data is going to be used, the better it would be because otherwise it could cause more disruption in the system. And I think users and consumers will only get insecure about it. Honestly, it's a balance that we're going to hit naturally. It's better if we approach it more cautiously and get there faster. So yeah, as a consumer, my data is always mine. The control is never. I think a marketer has enough other powers to live with, so marketer don't need more powers. Let the powers rest where they need to be. And that's how I think we should proceed to a more safer space on internet. Marketers want to make data as their friend and they should know how to manage their friends. That's fair to that, but to Joe's mention, there's a concept called data portability. In the advanced market, when a consumer is told that all their data is still being utilized, all this being processed, so that user and consumer is interested in taking the data back from that technology company or from that provider and put it in a different company. So those kind of laws used to be there where we need, obviously we need to inform the consumer about how the data is being processed. But at the same time, if we empower them by giving them this kind of portability where they can get that right data or whatever information which is being processed back to the user, I think that will create many situations for the entire community. That's very interesting perspective. Generally also, I would be looking forward to kind of figuring out that you also have to work and you have a key and key in place. Typically, what are the checks, internal checks from a stock perspective? You guys have in place to ensure that the privacy is maintained, the data handling, certain policies that you have in your company which gives confidence to consumers, which gives confidence to marketers that they're dealing with the right partner. What are those checks that you want to highlight? Yeah, definitely. So, you know, as far as the checks and balances, internal balances are concerned, we are forced by the, you know, the buyer client, buyer publisher partner, that window, if that data reaches there, you know, we will be a penalty. So it's a sensitive subject and the same, you know, if the penalty is huge, you know, we need to sign back in agreement with our data scientists, our technology guys back in the company to ensure that, you know, the data is, you know, secured and they're encrypted in the right manner so that they are not encrypted back and you know, it's not misused. Not coming back, you know, from the market years and from a partner's perspective, a partner's make sure that while they are dealing with consent from their consumer, they mention it explicitly that they are sharing that data with a technology company like us, the third party companies. So that explicit thing is mentioned there and it's part of the GDPR guidelines that we follow and, you know, then consumers opts to process the technology company like us. And they get the data and then we inform them that how we are processing that, what are the data points that we are getting to that and all the data points can be given back to the museum. We opt out features of it at every stage which, you know, every consumer would love to have. Coming back to you, Kanika, just taking your perspective of being an aggressive marketer, to what limits can a marketer really go? Oh my God, there's a tough one, you know. I think just for a little bit of context for our answer to your question, I think times have really changed for marketers. Like there was a time where there was a lot of focus on brand marketing, which is actually meant, you know, the hairless style of marketing where you would use perhaps digital, more television, outdoor, print, et cetera, and really create like a complete, beautiful image of your brand. Then it really took a lot of performance marketing, you know, when Prithora had that first, Prithora of the company came into the country and offered marketers the entire trip through journey where we get the results that they were looking for and most importantly, they would get the attribution that they were looking for. And that temptation, I think, for any marketer was huge. And that was also a time when the industry was really evolving and there were not so many discussions and conversation around data and how to use the data. And there was this whole rush to go in for the bottom funnel or, you know, hit the bottom line using the bottom of the funnel and all of these new tools that were available. And I think that was a time where perhaps many marketers in their regression would abuse these tools very differently, not knowing that tomorrow there's a different aspect unfolding in the future. But now, once, you know, we've all gone through the sea change with the pandemic and the increased awareness has happened with regulation and government talks and several other things. There is definitely increased awareness and sensibility and responsibility with marketers today and two things are emerging out of that. One, there is a better balance coming within the realm of brand performance marketing. And strategy-making data is why both performance and brand marketing. And today there's a sense of balance. Companies want to do very meaningful, very purposeful communication. They want to tell the right stories. They want to have an effective presence of social media where they're able to build their personality, have a tone and connect with their consumers. And that they can do independent of deep data. And then there's another side to it, which is the performance marketing in which they are now balancing with brand marketing and say, what do we need? Where do we need? Where do we need? And what's the best way to get it? And so it's a lot more sensitized. It's a lot more careful. And I think, and that sense of balance and responsibility is really making this move to take very well. So I think why we tread on this kind of helping this conversation, the colors, which creates this, there's a better balance between brand and performance. And the second is that, you know, just to know the sheer industry level awareness, all of us in this room today having this conversation is a clear testament to the fact that anyone listening to us or going back, simply in their subconscious mind will be more assessor and more careful about what it was said that would be in the future. So the sheer, with horror of conversation with the market and the industry with peers is building a collective sense of responsibility. And I think even though marketing is said to get very aggressive, this sense of responsibility is now here to say, who to make. Right, thank you. I think, good job, one perspective that I really wanted to have from you. You have consulted, probably more than 200 brands in your career, you know, and you've been a part of a lot of what's been in campaigns as well. How tempted are you to, again, you know, from a marketing perspective there, you know, from an advertising perspective, or an agency perspective, how tempted are you to leverage an understanding of campaign of one brand for another brand, okay? Because there is a data there, okay, which talks about, this is a market that perform well for this particular brand. And we're talking about one regular, 21 regular, you know, you figure out that, you know, down south in Kerala, this brand performs well. Okay, so that's a data, that's a take away data point for an agency. Typically that belongs to a marketer, you know, from that perspective. But you are, I think, you know, we tend to, all of us, we tend to use those business intelligence for benefit of other brands also. How far could you take that, or you know, what is the kind of of agreements that you have with your brands to protect that sort of, you know, kind of the data or privacy from that sense? Okay, so Gaurav successfully pushed me back to a marketeer's shoe from a consumer's shoe. They called you always, wear two hats, I wear two turbos for customer in a marketeer. So now talking from a marketeer's lens firstly, more than just brands at Denso, we are, we're bloody serious about data privacy and regulations. So once, so I think we are one of the few agencies and group who have a data protection officer in India, not just outside India as well. There are very few and I think only, I think there would be two at an overall level in India. We've been having a data protection officer for almost over two years now. So coming back to the point that you mentioned as a marketeer, I think as marketeers, when we take out inferences and learnings from some data that exists for one brand or for one market, et cetera, the inferred learning that we extract from any data and that learning is applied anywhere else, I think that's not a breach of data because that's a learning interpreted by a marketeer individually. However, on the other hand, no data can ever be cross-pollinated within Denso. We swore on to that. And I think that should be any marketeer's rule of operation that there should be no data migration, but of course, there has to be learnings that migrate from one brand, one category to the other. That's what a marketeer does in the course of executing successful marketing campaigns. Yeah, I think so we are pretty much covered a whole lot of issues around the subject. And I made some notes and if I were to kind of sum it up, I really feel that data privacy is tied to customer experience. I think in addition to providing best products and services, businesses must also provide consumers a sense of security as it pertains to their personal life. Enterprise needs to really stay up front to consumers and that's what consumers would appreciate that what kind of data about them, where the companies are using, what value that you could add to a consumer to their business or to third party. I think that upfront stating that should work well to build that trust. And then we also talked about putting the power in the hands of customers, yeah. Importance of consent needs to be realized by the company's consent management systems needed to be put in place. And consumers to be made aware that every business has a privacy policy. Right? So finally enterprises are also ambitious, right? And they want to push boundaries. They really want to push. If you keep playing safe, safe all the time you may not be able to innovate, okay? In order to innovate you will have to push boundaries. However, they have to really carefully play a maker checker there themselves. And the regulator also need to come and play their part, make consumers aware of their rights, of the privacy policies. And once the regulator somehow comes and takes a point, takes a position, I think market is good also for you, right? To build that trust. So I think just overall to summit, if you really say that between, you know, kind of figure out that between data collection and data privacy, where to draw a line, we may not have a black and white. You know, answer to that. We can't put it in black and white. But definitely as we tried putting it all together there are regulators, there are corporates, there are consumers who together can, you know, come together to evolve this entire ecosystem and make this a built-in situation for everyone. I think with that we would like to end and open the floor for any queries that you may have. We would be happy to address it. Please introduce yourself and let us know for whom the query is meant for. Sure. All right. I'm Karan, I grant digital for darkness cement. So news broke yesterday that Facebook is going to take away race and religion as data points in the US. As marketeers who primarily work in the Indian markets and knowing the data sets we have available, what data sets do you think should ideally be taken away so that it makes the consumers' life on digital safer while leaving all the commercial value that we as marketeers have in place? So any thoughts on that based on the data sets that we do have available now? Revolvitators, Alokan, yeah. It was a very interesting question. I thought we answered the reverse. I think the data sets that are needed are perhaps, you know, more demographic and sociographic and pro-national in nature because they help to build the customer's profile, you know, like his life, his interests so that the brand can serve him in the best way. So what I would say is that look at it the other way. What are the data points really needed to build the right type of customer profile that makes a marketeer or rather gives the marketeer better insight into how to serve him? And whatever data sets don't see into that profile or are just additional information, just remove those. So I think that's the best way I can answer this. Adding a little more to that, I think Facebook and Google are very popular platforms. But like how Gaurav started right in the beginning about digital transformation, you don't know how many other technology players or media partners are capturing all that information. Today I also leave information about my salary in my messages and I allow Google to read my messages and there you go. All the micro-investment apps are reading my salaries. They're reading where am I investing? They're reading, Facebook is reading. I'm eating Maggie because I'm posting about having Maggie with my nephew. I'm posting about move to a new city. I'm posting about all my habits. I think what's important is in some way knowingly or unknowingly there are many data sets that are being created but it's very important that when I'm leaving any of this information behind I should be told explicitly as a consumer it's my right to know explicitly that where all this data is going to be used. Is eating Maggie with my nephew gotta be used later to retarget me or not? Probably that's something, like I said we're gonna naturally find a balance between the black and white. Gaurav I think the black and white doesn't exist now but hopefully maybe next six months, one year when we hit the stage again there will be a black and white. So we should just be explicitly told and there are many data sets that exists. Sure and again the power to the consumer at the end of the day if he knows what about him is known to anybody, any third party he should have that transparency with him and the power to revoke those permissions if at all. Thank you very much Mr. Gaurav and thank you very much. Thank you very much Mr. Gaurav. Thank you Mr. Nishit and yes Ms. Kanika Mital thank you very much. That was very, very good and thank you for taking us through some fantastic highlights that we all got to know about and on that note I'd like to request Mr. Sanjay Sundewani CEO Indian Express online to please come up on stage and give a token of appreciation to our esteemed panelists and can we please put our hands together? Thank you so much.