 What IID has done right in driving change because the objective of the organization is to Change the power to contribute to you can help you can hardly put it on IIDs Shoulders to change the power relations in the world. I think that's going too far even for people like us I think that what IID has contributed though is enormous energy and enormous collaborative strength With people who are actually on the ground whether it's the organization's want slum dwellers International with who IID has worked for years in or its work on Participatory learning and the participation has been built into their programs from the beginning So it's been a contribution both technically in how do you do that? How can you assist local governance? How can you work with groups that are? clearly advocating for a better world, but doing so on a basis of Serious evidence. I think that's been their contribution to change. It's those ideas have been they have contributed also You can document on land rights questions You can look and see changes in legislation that have come about Directly as a result of their work Development officials have a way of having fads and fancies about things if you think about IIDs work with with communities in in dry land areas in the desert and the Way in which that work continued over many many years now. It's being picked up again But there were many years where IID was if not on its own It was part of a very small cadre that understood what the contributions were of these Communities of people who move from place to place with their herds. So it's I'd he's had I think a big impact in the realm of ideas in the way in which you can be activist but evidence-based and Also the work that they've done in international fora Whether it's the cop process or any of the climate change conferences the work They've been doing directly with least developed countries to Provide assistance to the negotiating capacity of those of those teams all of that has been very important for a change Yeah, I really think that they you know that combination that you you talk about that is the Combination of research and action on the ground is it's a rare combination Usually you have only one of those exactly happening and it's very powerful to have them both And I think that you are right that there is a huge contribution of trying to put serious research and evidence-based Action in the hands of the people that has to make that Happen, you know not thinking that you will make it happen alone Just because you have the evidence, you know to put it in the hands of the people for them to be able to act on it understand it and act on it to you know to improve their lives I think that is a very very powerful combination and you are right that they also did the participation in the International fora makes it not only a local, you know action But it makes it also a national and international action that is the right chain to to consider But it's very difficult for a research organization to have this connection with the people with communities on the ground and It's amazing that the IID has has maintained that For so long and I think that Definitely as you say is a huge strength and also working with groups in communities on the ground Means that the kind of questions that researchers turn their minds to are going to be different So it isn't absolutely isn't just that the you know the brilliance of the evidence is picked up by people and they act on it Yes, no, no, no The influence the agenda for research they influence the agenda for research and their their their their wisdom and Their knowledge is also taken into account That is so important because they are Usually not hurt, you know, and if you want to change, you know, they're They're the power relations on the ground if you want to empower them You have to first start to make visible their knowledge and their contribution already to many of the problems Not only as recipients But really as actors also in the research agenda in terms of knowledge wisdom, you know from So many from their history from their culture from their traditions not very important And also the board has always had some Representation from people who are working with communities on the ground and and we have we had exactly that experience today when some Super said to us well in the organization like who is being listened to here What is the what is the nature of the of the voices being heard around the tables? very so it very strong and so and There has always been that connection right up to the board level, which I also think is Not that it's true also what you said Maureen that say a IID has maintained an agenda that for a long time was like preaching in the desert Yes, not everybody was there When IID already was in some of the issues and now they have become You know very important and relevant issues also in the international discussion, and I think that this intersection of environment and poverty Will continue to be really at the center of the discussion in the international arena and With the development partners because this is really what the equation we need to solve How to make that happen at the same time, you know fight poverty and live in a more sustainable World make things in a more sustained sustainable way and I think that this is a very important point on what IID is doing and We need more evidence and more, you know action on the ground with the evidence To show that it's possible to be done and that the solutions are there that we can have both at the same time Unfortunately, I think that don't you don't you have this feeling that still you know the different communities debate You know they the the those of us that have come from the development side We say yes sustainable development, but fighting poverty is the most important Those that come from the environmental community they say yes sustainable development, but you know Sustainability in an environmental sense is the most important and we need you know these two communities to really come together You know independently of what is your entry point? Important things that you have to get to the same place exactly and where there's a challenge that still remains with IID is How to think about the gender dimension within the work on environment and poverty There's been there has been movement on that and I don't know why it is and it's not only IID on this issue people who work on sustainable development and poverty Seem to have a hard time figuring out what is the issue and yet when you remember when you recall If you look at who's poor Most of the people who are poor in the world are women So there's an area where there's going to be still lots of work to be done