 Welcome everyone to another edition of Crisis Conversations from the Better Life Lab. Today we're going to be talking about returning to work. The crisis, the pandemic continues to rage on and yet there are states that have reached levels where they've decided to go into different phases of reopening. Businesses are talking about reopening. We've got some high tech companies saying well people continue can continue to work remotely if they choose for some time. On the other hand, there are workers who've been essential workers who are saying that they still don't have the protective gear that they need. Now we've got non essential workers, so to speak going back to work. We're going to be talking about going back to work in the short term, but then also looking at what does this mean in the long term. And today we're going to have stories not only from sort of across the spectrum, if you will. So often our conversations are siloed and today I really want to talk, you know, include everyone. So we're talking about white collar workers we're talking about, you know, essential workers. So we've got Richard G. Jack here who's works at a restaurant will be having a, you know, hourly workers essential workers talking. And so I really encourage all of you to who are participating to share your story to be part of the conversation that this really raises some very important questions about the way we work in the short term and also what it could mean in the long term, what lessons we're learning how we can emerge better and stronger. So what I'd like to do is start off with a conversation that I had earlier this week with Kendra good enough she is at Microsoft she's an investor relations there. So she works as a white collar worker. And she has some really very interesting thoughts about the return to work so let's start with the clip from my conversation with her to start the conversation today. I think will be hard though is when people do start going back into the office there will be those that either because they have access to childcare or they don't have children or whatever that situation is it's easier to do that versus some you know myself maybe included in here where I have to stay home I can't go in because schools aren't open. I'm unclear on I guess what that'll look like where all of a sudden people are back face to face. And you know if I'm remote or others are remote will we miss out on those holy conversations that naturally happen when people are in there. You know when people remember that we're dialing in remotely you don't forget to dial in when you start a meeting because you know I can't be in the office yet and it's kind of unclear yet like how that'll play out and if that empathy that people have developed as we've all been working remotely if that'll continue and you know people remember that you know there are many of us still potentially working remotely once once the office does open back up. So, Manar let me go let me first go to you Manar Morales she is the President and CEO of the Diversity and Flexibility Alliance. So when are you've been working with a number of firms as they transition from pre COVID to dealing with working remotely. What are what are you hearing from from firms what are companies and managers dealing with as they think about going back in the short term and then also in the long term. Yeah I think Kendra raises a lot of really good points that a lot of the firms and the companies that we're working with are thinking about which is that not everybody can return and so think you had that initial phase where everybody was working from home and it kind of was in the playing field so normally where people would be concerned on missing out when they were telecommuting perhaps more on one offs. So as I think they're going back they really do have to take a step back and look at what does the next normal look like we can assume I think there's, we're always cautioning our companies about something right so when they issue these memos and they say we're all anxious to get back, I have to remind them that first of all, who are you defining in that, are you actually thinking about everybody did you survey, and to also remember that you have to think about that actually going back causes a lot of people to be anxious. And so being mindful of that when you start to think about how do you create this hybrid phase. And I think what Kendra raised is a lot what we caution a lot of our firms and our members about which is, you have to think about inclusion, it can't be a situation where we know that you're going to have to thin out conference rooms and so I caution to say, if you have a meeting a conference room and you had 10 people but now you can only fit for who gets a seat at the table and who doesn't that's an inclusion issue. Actually, everything should then be virtual right so even though you have an opportunity for people to go back in, and they're being very cautious about it I don't think companies and firms that can continue they were surprised at how well remote work worked for everybody I'm not actually very eager to immediately jump back in so I'm hearing from them to say even as states reopen, we're taking it cautiously to say, we're going to, you know, phase it in, and we are advocating that it be reason neutral for a significant period of time meaning why they want to go back because you shouldn't be the arbiter of whose reason is better than the others in other words, because I'm taking care of my father does that mean I'm better than the person who has anxiety about going work or person who's taking care of children or whatever the issue is, you shouldn't be in a position to be the arbiter of who has a better reason to not be in. And so really open it up and allow everybody to be voluntary reason neutral to step up and say I want to continue to work from make sure that when you're having team meetings when you're doing that that you continue to do that virtually, so that everybody is involved because people are going to put a lot of pressure on themselves to to feel like am I missing out and people from underrepresented backgrounds, who already felt like, perhaps, when I'm in the office, I didn't feel seen and now I'm concerned that I'm out of sight out of mind and so I'm putting pressure on myself to feel like I should go in in order not to miss out on opportunities. So I think thinking about that and thinking about training for exactly some of the issues and concerns like how you manage remote teams, how you're successful requires a level of training and how you do that in a hybrid environment also requires a level of training. And I think the other thing is creating ombuds persons to be there in case you know that it's going to happen where people are going to feel a power struggle of, I'm feeling pressure to go in, even though I'm not comfortable. And they need to find place to go take that concern to outside of their immediate supervisor or the person they're working for. So I think all of those are issues that are important to think about as you're transitioning. And I'm always careful to say back to the office because people have been working really really hard during this time. Right. It's real. You're right. It's not a back to work at all. It's a back to a different, you know, doing work in a different place. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Although the question that she brings up around childcare is something that is, you know, I've been hearing I think we've all been hearing more and more about how on earth can you go back to work. Back to not back to work but back to an office or a FaceTime setting when when childcare centers may not be open when it's unclear what's going to happen at school. You know, and then do you have to make a choice does one go and one doesn't go and then if you have to make that choice who is that and we do know from a lot of research that women tend to be the ones that step back. So now you've got researchers who are writing pieces really all around the world saying if you don't figure out childcare in this, you know, reopening section, you may set women's kind of the advances back 40 years, you know, how are you addressing that with the firms that you're working with. Yeah, so we're talking about the fact that you can't ignore the fact that this issue exists right you can expect people that are just going to shed and show up and pretend that they don't have childcare responsibilities or elder care responsibilities during this time through no fault of their own and so saying to organizations you need to create a culture where people can step up and speak up and say, this is my and check in with them and say, this is what I'm experiencing. And, but don't also assume I think that we have to be really careful and we say this to our firms and our members don't assume just because somebody has childcare responsibilities that they want to be taken off of things right that they don't want to work because it also penalizes them. Right. So it's about having the open conversation to ask them what's going on what's on your plate, how can we help. What can you do because a lot of them are thinking. Some people are saying look, I can shift my hours or I'm available for this two hours and then I'm trading off with somebody and I'm on this shift and they're doing different shifts that they're working out or they're working into the weekend. So I think having open conversations it's what's important and allowing people to speak up and feel comfortable that they're not going to be penalized if they speak up during this time is really incredibly important. Okay, well, let me go to Richard now. Richard, you know, when we when we talk about people returning to, you know, returning to do work in places other than home, you know, you work at a restaurant you weren't able to do work at home like many of the, you know, there are tens of millions of people in America who are out of work. You know, talk a little bit more from your perspective, you know, you you're with restaurant opportunities centers united. What are some of the things that you know what is your pandemic experience been like and what is going, going back to a, you know, going back to a restaurant like at this moment. Well, the pandemic experience of being late of being laid off has just been one of complete mystery. We as restaurant workers have been unsure what the business will be like when we come back. What are the circumstances we are coming back to and what will the industry look like there have been reports of closures of restaurants, lots of jobs, etc. When we come back now and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, we are at 50% capacity and dining room. We have protocols in place for safety protocols, but the safety protocols really only exist on the guest behalf to make the customers feel comfortable. We change our gloves after every interaction. The customers are really only, they're asked to follow guidelines, but the guidelines are unenforceable. You know, they don't, if they choose not to wear a mask when they get up from the table. They don't have to if they, if they choose to, you know, simply not wear a mask at all. They don't have to, we can sort of, they can sit as long as they want in the dining room without being asked to move along and speed up their dinners and they can also, the only limits they have are the party limits they're not allowed to have a party of four in the bar area, or a party greater than four in the bar area, or a party greater than 10. So, you know, you are also talking when we talked the other day you're also saying that because, you know, restaurants are trying to limit the number of people there there's also a lot of staff that aren't there. And so, the people who have returned like you are actually now doing a whole lot more than you used to. And you're also doing it while you're earning the tipped minimum wage which not a lot of people know is like, you know, a little more than $2 an hour you basically rely on tips in order to just make a living wage right. Right, so that you know what the pandemic is really done is really highlighted. Even further the interesting power dynamic in restaurants. You know, we, again, we take all of the precautions of staff for the customer to decide how much they want to pay up. We are being asked to do a lot more work. I know in a lot of restaurants, including mine. I serve. Assistant staff like bosses servers assistant bartenders have not been contact. My management is taking the 50% pay cut. And so we are being asked to do a lot more or a lot less money. And that's including having only 50% capacity. So we are making lessons in general. And last question to you, Richard, and then I want to go to you, Alex. So, when you're, you know, working with, you know, with rock United, what are some of the issues that you really want to see change. You know, not just in the short term but you know when it comes to restaurant work in the long term what are some of the things you all are fighting for. The most pressing issue because of the pandemic has been paid sick leave. We are learned to work for us. This does not have access to pay sick leave. It's unfathomable, I think, to us to ask people to return to work, especially those of us who handle your food, cook your food, serve your drinks to have to work sick. So the choice is, you know, in my industry, if you don't show up, you don't get paid. And most of us are going to choose to get paid rather than take a day off because we're sick. So the biggest issue that we're pushing forward right now, I think at a long term, we've always been focused on raising the tips minimum wage. You know, safeguards for workers in the back of the house as well as the front of the house, and there are a whole host of other issues as well, but I think those are the most pressing at the moment. Well, so let me go to you, Alex. So Alex, for those of you who don't know is a fantastic writer. Let me see if I can get these in the, in the, in the, in my screenshot so he's written rest. Even though that's a little backwards that they're usually these books are back on my bookshelf there and his latest one is shorter work better smarter and less here's how so it's a fantastic book. Alex, you do a lot of work and thinking about work where we are now how we can work effectively what are work systems that work in the future. As you've been watching kind of work systems frankly, really undergo huge disruption and in some cases really crumble in the pandemic. What are you seeing, you know, in terms of where we are now like how is this going to change work in the future and one of the things I'd love for you to talk about as you, you know, you talk about the four day work week and everybody kind of cries and I love a four day work week, but we also live in a country where a lot of people can't even get a four day work week, or they're earning such little money that working four days a week is not going to not going to cut it for them. How do we address work hours across the board in this country and so that was sort of a whole lot of a question but I want you to talk about the future of work and not just robots I want you to talk about humans here. Now, I think, you know, I think what we've seen over the last several months is, first off, COVID and the pandemic laying bare a whole bunch of sort of structural inequalities and problems that either sort of were kind of underneath the surface or that we knew about but but have become a lot more urgent. Right. I think that the sort of, you know, the growing and designed precarity of labor that has made a few people really really rich and those people now are on their private islands instead of, you know, where they're not exposed to COVID and a large class of people who sort of struggle to sort of find stable working to make ends meet the stubborn problems with keeping women in the workplace at a level commensurate with their male colleagues, particularly when they're having to, you know, sort of juggle work stuff, family stuff. And I think that COVID has, you know, has laid bare the disconnect between essential work and our support for it and the fact that a good bit of that essential work has been sort of organized to coin a phrase. You know, I think it's, it's also made clear, I hope in a good way for the amount of work required to manage work and family, and the enormous amount of emotional labor that people have to engage in, in order to keep those two things separate. And how, you know, and sort of how, sort of complicated and often fragile are the systems that that individuals have had to build in order to deal with those things, right, you know, as schools of clothes childcare centers of clothes. You know, I don't need to rehearse for sort of anybody the amount of work that people have had to put into, you know, both working from home and, you know, being teachers and pediatricians etc etc. And I think, but you know, I think also that it has revealed the degree to which companies and organizations can actually change really quickly when they need to, you know, the number of managers who said, you know, who before this would have said, work from home as a hill I will die on have discovered that, you know, in fact, the earth will not crash into the sun, you know, if they, you know, if they can't see their people in the office 10 hours a day. Yeah. And, you know, I think that the, you know, the hopeful thing there is that, you know, it's revealed that all kinds of things that we thought were impossible in the world of work can be changed. And I think one of the challenge going forward is, you know, is to push for the good things as opposed to the bad. So, you know, and I think that the, you know, I think one of the other things that's laid bare is the degree to which our workplaces actually often are super spreaders right what we've got open offices that love viruses. I mean, open offices that viruses love with all the circulated air and these common surfaces, crowded kitchens. We got to figure out how to deal with stuff. Yeah, we're getting a little bit of noise, noise in there I think we're having some technical difficulties. So Alex. So, let me ask you one question and I want to go to Yama and Adil. So the, this whole idea about shorter work hours or the four day work week. What is that, you know, is that even a possibility and how would that work for, you know, for someone like, like Richard who right now is earning a little over the two, then two bucks an hour, you know, how is that going to work across the board and, you know, you say that in the past remote work is someplace is, you know, remote and flexible work managers would say this is the hell I'm going to die on. A lot of people are saying that now about a four day work week saying no way they're you know, in America we work long work hours and we wear it like a badge of honor there's no way we're going to move forward on that. What do you, what do you see happening. Right. So, you know, first off, you know, I've looked at more than 100 companies that have done this, you know, ranging from software and advertising firms, you know, kind of professional services to restaurants and nursing homes. And so, you know, I think it is something that is doable across a far wider range of industries than we think. And fundamentally, the reason that it's possible is that technology over the last 30 years has made, you know, in nor made possible enormous increases in productivity that have been buried under a kind of rubble of multitasking and outdated management and overly long meetings, etc. And once you clear that stuff away, as some companies have done during this emergency, you recognize that actually it's already possible to do five days work in for without cutting people's salaries. And so, you know, and then in, you know, I think sort of the situation is a little bit different in, let's say restaurants and nursing homes, you know, wages for hourly workers do have to go up in those places. But the savings in terms of not having to hire temporary workers, you know, not, you know, dramatic reductions in turnout, improvements in quality of service, end up actually making these programs economically viable. Not to mention the fact that, you know, it, that it plays, you know, it has a huge benefit in terms of reducing burnout, making possible, let's say, you know, very creative head chefs who are reaching that point after 10 or 15 years of 70 hour weeks. Recognizing that, you know, I'm not going to be able to do this for that much longer. And if I, you know, and if I break down the whole restaurant goes away, making it possible for them to have sustainable careers for a very long time. And so for all of the, and then, you know, the final thing I would say is that if you think a crisis sounds like the wrong time to try something radical like this, actually crises are exactly when companies have adopted four day weeks. I mean, you know, leaders have faced burnout when they've had, you know, huge recruitment issues when you've got, you know, competition moving in. It's big things like that that have made companies take the jump and go to a four day week. Not because they want to, you know, because it's some, you know, kind of left wing touchy feely touchy feely thing. It's a very smart strategic business decision. And I think in an era when we've got to think about how we can, you know, return to work in a way that keeps people safe, that allows people to space out in formally crowded offices. And in the long run, how we can make organizations more resilient and flexible and creative places that have moved to four day weeks have been very effective at doing all of those. And so I think that's that that both has a short run solution. And in the long run, as a tool for helping us prepare for the next phase of this pandemic. And, you know, we're not at the end of the movie, we are at the end of the first season, and, you know, and the villain is about to come back. You know, both in the short and the long run, it's going, it can serve as a really useful tool that will not only make people safer, you know, safer and healthier, but also improve people's lives improve work life balance and help companies reopen faster safer and more sustainably. All right, well, let me at this point go to Yama, Yama and Adele. Thank you so much for for coming on you both are from make the road, New Jersey. And just yesterday I got I got your flyer here the right to refuse work caravan. So, Yama, talk, talk a little bit about, you know, you are an essential worker you have continued to work through the pandemic. What are you, what are you still facing now as more and more people are coming back, you know, to places to places of work. You know, what are what are what are some of the things that you're seeing and, and why were you on the caravan yesterday. Thank you for coming. So, Adele, so for the for the listeners who don't speak Spanish, can you can you help. Can you help translate what Yama is saying she's it sounds like that they're still there's still a lot of risk that people are facing when they go to work. That's right. That's right. And so, Yummy, you, you, you put a good thing but Yummy but I can put them in English, so they you know, put a good thing, and I'll go, please, for the day. But yeah, I think I think you caught that I think what yummy was just transitioning to, was, you know, workers are taking a lot of risks there's no security, and in particular workers are taking on multiple jobs and duties in their workplace that's putting them more at risk. similar to what Richard was talking about a little earlier and now I think Yami was going to start talking about how you know workers are taking down these multiple roles and putting themselves more at risk. And you know at the same time putting themselves more at risk but then you know like Richard was saying they don't have paid sick days you know do you you know also dealing with low low pay and not having you know kind of like the supports that you need like paid sick days or time off if you need to give care pay time off or you know saving for retirement or having access to health care you know so you're putting you know so many essential workers are putting yourselves at risk and is it is it continued you know now that there are more people coming in is that is that increasing the risk that's right and I think this is a great opportunity to make action to eliminate uh uh uh to say uh a handshake employer and his agency and that's the more terrible for every people to thank here and don't have opportunity to change the health insurance to a great pay to security for tomorrow I had a job you know it's it's terrible for the last personas uh todo el tiempo sientan inseguridad yeah I have an idea I had an idea to pay my taxes right yeah it just uh believing but when I say my taxes uh the governor had me when and I needed but now and this uh opportunity they uh they don't have this option only uh that idea to pay his taxes and and this enhances approach to slavery I think this is a kind of slavery because of slavery well thank you so much yama you know we're Alex let me let me turn to you for you know kind of coming to the next um phase of the conversation which is uh you know you were talking about um you know radical design you know or restructuring can happen in the middle of a pandemic and I'm thinking of like the black plague you know that that you know so many people ended up tragically dying that the you know then all of a sudden labor became more uh you know you could ask more for your labor and it sort of broke the chains of serfdom in many parts of europe are we going to see something like that now or is this uh you know is this a time for a major major restructuring uh of the way we work across all sorts of systems are we not there yet you're on mute Alex I think you know it is an opportunity for that you know either the sort of the none of these none of these futures are cast in stone right and it's a it's a question of what you know what we're able to work toward um you know I think that arguably the single biggest thing that this has revealed is the need to improve sort of the infrastructure for supporting people during times of economic disruption um you know if you you know not only does it has this exposed people to risks in very disparate and unfair ways but you know countries that were that offered better organized support at the beginning of the pandemic places like you know new zealand and denmark have also been able to come out of it a lot faster with a lot less disruption and with fewer people getting sick and dying and so I think that uh you know in addition to sort of changing the way that we work and using this as an opportunity to you know move back from you know the ridiculousness of thinking of long hours as equivalent to you know sort of high productivity in you know virtually every job um you know this is sort of we should we have a we have a chance to you know address some of these structural issues at a time when it's really really clear that we ought to do so. So let me play one last clip from Kendra and then Manar I'm going to ask you for your final final thoughts um uh it's sort of a it really struck me about what she was saying in terms of what we're what we're learning in the current situation that she hopes moves forward. I am so hopeful that this this empathy we're seeing will continue once we go back and it's almost like it forced people to understand what it's like to have other responsibilities outside of work commitments whether it's elderly parents or kids or siblings or whatever it is that you're responsible for that makes it a little bit more challenging to show up for a 7am meeting or you know to stay incredibly late at night and that not everyone you know is able to to meet that kind of ideal worker norm. So Manar you know could this be the end of the ideal worker norm the the notion of the the impossible standard that you put work before everything else and you're always available. Yeah I I certainly think it has opened up a whole new conversation uh in firms and in companies around this I used to say my biggest competitor to flexibility was the status quo right it wasn't about others doing this it was about what was the challenge of how do we mentor how do we know if somebody's really working right how do we under you know they need to be committed and all of those things that they couldn't just see and now having the status quo completely flipped where everybody is working virtually and they're seeing it I do think that it will that the smart that the innovative organizations and companies firms will pivot and not go back that they will look at how do we make these changes not just on on working from home and telecommuting but on all sorts of flexibility I do think it's given some greater empathy I I do think that that is correct because there's also men in leadership positions whose wives have been involved that I've talked to whose wives are involved in COVID research or other things where they've had to take on all of the childcare responsibility and they keep saying I had no idea like and I am now having I talked to one partner in a law firm four young kids and he leads a group and he was saying you know I have to do all the the care and monitor all the schooling while I'm leading my and so I think that greater empathy for understanding how all of that works will translate in new initiatives and new policies being put into place not every firm is going to do that not every company I think will do that but I think the smart and innovative ones will absolutely look at how does this change and recalibrate how we're doing everything well thank you so much I'd like to thank all of the panelists for being here today I'd like to thank the participants as well and I I love that thought I hope that that empathy will expand not just to white color workers but also to workers like Richard and Yama that we can really rethink about really rethink the structures of work in general how to make them more human centered so that we can actually flourish as human beings so thank you so much for to Alex, Minaar, Adele, Yama and Richard thank you so much for being here thank you to the participants for joining us today I'd like to thank the Better Life Lab team, Jed Zia, St. Julian who helps me with the podcast thank you to the New America events team to David Shulman great podcast producer just to to Minaar's last point I hope you'll join us next week where we will actually be talking about how men's roles are changing and shifting in the pandemic and whether that will also last and lead to late lasting changes so in the meantime I hope everyone stays healthy and safe wash your hands and we'll see you next week thank you thank you