 Life is about constant evolution. Always better today than we were yesterday. Welcome to the Only Easy Day was yesterday. I'm your host, Scott Williams. And today, we have Navy SEAL and MMA pro fighter, Bobby Winther. Welcome. Hey, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Bobby, they tell me that your fighting name is the ghost. Can you explain a little bit about that before we get into all your background and everything? Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I wish the story was cooler than it actually is. But I have a tattoo on my arm. And the character, it's from a video game called The Ghost of Tsushima, which is like a samurai that pretty much has to abandon this or has to go against the samurai code in order to beat the Mongols that had invaded his territory. So he has to kind of like sneak behind the scenes a little bit to defeat the enemy rather than just fight them like outright. And he kind of had like a lot of like riff between the actual samurai that he was with and then just kind of like the people he was rebelling against to. So I kind of liked the reason why I picked that as a nickname. For me, it's like a warrior that you're going to have to do what it takes to win sometimes. And SEALs were all about being sneaky and being behind the scenes. So that's kind of, I kind of thought it fit really well on that. And also, I thought the game was pretty cool, too. Yeah, well, I guess there's some themes there about resilience and adaptability, which is something that we talk a lot about here at NSW is the ability for operators to naturally adapt in their environment, overcome obstacles, and keep moving despite challenges. And you probably see that a lot in just training for MMA, right? Oh, all the time. Yeah, like for mixed martial arts, it's the most fundamental form of warfare that I like to explain. It's like 1v1, no weapons, just our hands, just whatever rules that we're going in right there. And you're constantly met with different skills that pose different problems to you. So if someone's really good at defending wrestling and that's your best skill, well, you got to figure out a way to make that work for you inside the fight. I always say it's the most fundamental form, because as you get to actual warfare within the platoons, you have teams, you have weapons now, and you have a lot more assets, which is a lot more things to control. But the idea and the concept of warfare still remains the same. They may have something that deters you from moving to a specific area, so you have to answer that in a different way, whether that be with aircraft, whether that be with a different fire team. So that's kind of, as far as the resilience and adaptability, it's constantly going, and I feel like MMA is such a great way to practice that daily. Your role here at Naval Special Warfare is a combatives instructor at our Advanced Training Command, which is attached to the center here. So you're applying lessons that you learn in MMA to the curriculum? Correct, yeah. So I've been doing the sport for quite some time now, and I started Jiu Jitsu about 12 years ago, and then slowly picked up wrestling and striking and then full-on mixed martial arts competition-wise about three years ago. And when I got to the command, since I had a pretty extensive knowledge in the sport aspect of it, and I didn't have any real-world experience for the tactical side of things. So the shop I was with, fortunately, had a lot of guys who had a lot of hands-on experience within Iraq and Afghanistan. And we both just kind of, all of us kind of put our minds together and just kind of threw things at the wall to see what stuck. Okay, and here was the tactical situation. How will we use combatives to deal with it? Cool, I would use this technique, that technique, that technique, and then they can be like, well, that doesn't make sense because of the team-based environment because we may be putting our buddies into a bad position. So now it kind of made us work and adapt the combatives to whatever that tactical situation was. In a tactical situation where you're doing effectively urban combat, you're in close quarters. It's room-to-room. We have seen plenty of examples in the past where SEALs have had to come into direct contact with the enemy, sometimes closer than pistol range, right? Like in your face, kind of close, and had to actually lay hands on the enemy. So this is where your training comes in as a combatives instructor, is what happens when you get face-to-face with the enemy. Absolutely, part of my job is just putting that, like when you do get face-to-face with the enemy, is for it to almost be like autopilot, like to be that instinct reaction, like making sure you're doing the fundamentals of fighting instinctually that keep you and your teammates safe. The more you practice it, the more it becomes an instinct, and then you can start actually thinking while you're doing the thing, rather than being so overwhelmed when that problem happens and then being like, oh gosh, what do I do, what do I do? No, you already know what you do. Then now we can think, okay, here's the situation, being presented to me, let me use XY and Z tactics to finish the job or subdue the suspect. Let's talk a little bit about MMA, right? So you have a professional career. What is your record right now? Currently, it's 1-0. Hopefully by the time this podcast comes out, it's going to be 2-0. I'll fight this Friday. Wow, that's awesome. And it's a cage match? Pretty much the easiest way is like, whatever you see on UFC, like on the TV, that type of cage is what I'll be fighting in. I see. So when we talk about the definition of mixed martial arts, how does that translate into seal training as well? A lot of guys will ask, hey, what kind of fighting styles do they study, do seals use? So primarily now, we use a primarily grappling heavy system. So what that means is a lot of, if you watch MMA, there'll be a lot of striking in the takedowns. And there is that striking, striking meaning boxing or kickboxing. There'll be that to bridge the gap into the grappling. Because we have weapons, generally that long-distance area is generally controlled with a weapon. So we don't see as much striking. Not that we don't see any. We definitely have times where we throw strikes, but most of what we teach combatives is now a grappling heavy system. So that way that means wrestling, wall grappling. That's why MMA is such a great tool to use for our operators is because they have a vertical surface behind them, which no other sports have. That's a relatively new, newer martial art and a new problem set for martial artists to deal with. And for us, because the most likely scenario we'd get into that would be in an enclosed area like a room, the walls are everywhere. So we need to be able to adapt to that. Kind of to answer your question, a grappling heavy approach with aspects of striking within the grappling there. OK. So we're talking something that might resemble Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Kraftmaga, things like that? Yeah, aspects of these can all be what's considered mixed martial arts. So I think for us is like American-style wrestling, jiu-jitsu, and then some basic boxing and stuff. We don't, as far as like within the actual operators, like arsenal of things we want to teach them, we don't teach them a ton of like kickboxing kicks. We may maybe teach one like push kick, but it's either that, elbows, punches, and then knees up and close. So this is like the only striking applications we really use from like the Muay Thai and the kickboxing arts. Yeah, sounds like some elements of Muay Thai. Yeah, there's a lot in there for sure. But that's short range, right? Oh, yeah, really short range. And that's why you get pinned up against a wall, or your guy is pinned up against a wall. If you do that close, then... Exactly, yeah, it's like if we're that close, I need to make it not just a grab. And this is why mixed martial arts is such a cool sport and unique in that sense, is that you can strike within the clinch, you can strike on the ground, which you can't in wrestling. So it's like you get to see like, oh, this is how you use these short range weapons. This is how you get to like employ these things. And when we're teaching down at the base, we use all those weapons, but we also recognize that we have weapons of our own that we can use or can employ. So figuring out, hey, what is the range of each weapon that I'm using on my body, and then of my actual tools that I have too? So it's like a John Wick movie. Actually the best way to think about it, I think John Wick crushes it. Obviously, you know, John Wick is like a little over the top, but I wish we could all get there, that'd be awesome. If we could all be like John Wick, that would be so sick. How did all this begin for you? How did you become interested in being a Navy Seal? So I got interested, so my brother joined the Marine Corps, and he joined when he was 17, and even way before he joined, I kind of always felt like drawn to the military, and I don't quite understand why. I just kind of was like, I like it. I think that's a respectable thing. It's a calling. Yeah, exactly, so I kind of like always had that inkling that that's the route I wanted to go. I just didn't know how I was going to get there. So my brother joined, and then I was always interested in like the medical side of things. I always thought it was cool to be like on the op, and then if someone went down, they were like, hey, we need you, and I was like, that guy, like the medic. So I thought, okay, my brother's a Marine. I'd like to be a Marine, but I want to do the medic thing, so it can only be a corpsman for that. So you have to be in the Navy. So I started looking into the Navy. I think I typed in online. I was like, I typed in Navy, and then like the auto-populated like seals. And I've heard of seals, but I didn't know what they were. I was like, well, let's look at all the options to make sure. And then I clicked the button, and it took me right to the Sealswick website. And I've ever seen all these like videos. I just like dove deep on the website because they had like a guy jumping out of a plane. I was like, whoa, these people jump out of planes and they're in the Navy? This is wild. So I like kept going down. I was like, oh, that's cool. I was like, they're shooting guns and moving around like the land warfare aspect. I was like, that seems like what Marines do too. So I was like, okay, am I like 13, 14-year-old brain is telling me all this? And then I said, wait, what website was this on? The Sealswick website. Sealswick.com. Oh, that sounds really familiar, doesn't it? Shameless plug. Okay, sorry. Go ahead with your story, please. So as I was like diving deep in the website, I was like, I just kind of was like, I think I can do this. I was like, this is, I think I can do it. I want to do it. And I sat on it for like a while. And I think every day, I think I thought about it every day for like a year and then every day after that, I was like, I can't wait to do it. So when I was 14, after seeing the website, I was like, all right, yeah, this is cool. I'm getting in and that's what I want to do. Oh, also my deciding factor for it was, I saw you could be a medic within the Sealswick. You could be a seal and then you could be a medic. So I crossed off my boxes and I was like, sign me up, I'm in. So I looked at what it took to be a seal, like what the criteria was and you could be 17 if you wanted to as long as the parents signed you and you passed the PST. And I was like, cool, what's the PST? And it was the 500 yard swim, the push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups and that run. So I was like, cool, if this is what I got to do to be a seal, let me just get really good at these things. So I think the tests is like on there, like how they run the tests. So I was like, okay, let me just run myself through the tests and then keep doing that until I get better at them. Use the PST calculator. Yeah, so like every time I did it, I saw that they had this PST calculator, so I threw all my numbers on there and it compared my results to people who had already taken the tests or people that were already going through training. And it would like rank you out on that. And then so I was like, okay, I better be in like the top, like 10, like eventually, like that was the goal for me. And I don't remember what I started out with and I don't remember what I ended with, but I remember just like, okay, let me just like, keep doing this until it's like acceptable. And it was super, super cool. I was like, dang, I'm like, I was like, I can compete with some of the people that are going through Buds right now. And I was like, that was just a cool thing for me. I thought it was awesome. So it was like tangible and like I could see the results that I was putting in and I was getting closer to my goal. So it didn't seem so impossible to me. Yeah, what part of the country were you in at the time? Philadelphia. Okay, and then you got hooked up with an NSW mentor or a recruiter or how did that whole accession part? Yeah, so when I was 17, hit up a recruiter and I told him, I want to be a seal, don't want to be anything else. And he's like, okay, cool. Take the PST and then once I took the PST with a mentor out there, his name is Chief Black, he might still be a mentor out there. And I took the PST through him. The first one I took ended up getting picked up on. And then I had my contract going right away. I was a senior in high school and then by the time when I graduated, I would just leave for boot camp like a month after that. Training for the PST, that's got to be tough. I mean, sure, it sounds easy. You've got push-ups, you've got sit-ups, you've got pull-ups, which are not easy for everybody. You've got the run. Some people have a problem with that. What about swim? Swimps, are you a swimmer? So at 14? Yeah, so at 14, I had no formal swimming training other than just learning how to do it in a pool. So when I decided I wanted to be a seal, I was like, well, I don't know what the side stroke is and I don't know how to be fast at it. So let me join my swim team and just get really good at swimming because I'm probably going to need that. And once I did that, I got a lot better at swimming and my times for the PSTs went way down, which like down and is a good thing in swimming. So it went way down, so my times were doing a lot better. And then I kind of supplemented that training with just doing push-ups, pull-ups and sit-ups on my own and running on my own a lot. I kind of ran to like a lot of different practices and at the same time, I did jujitsu because I was like, well, I got to learn how to fight if I'm going to be a seal. So I was like, let me learn how to swim, let me learn how to fight and then I'll supplement the rest. I'll figure out where it goes. Swim training. So you got on the swim team, but they don't do the combat side stroke on the swim team. So how did you learn the combat side stroke? So they do freestyle and then we do all the strokes, but I was primarily a brush stroker, which is probably the most translatable to side stroke. And then I just asked my coach, I was like, how do I do this? Like, how's the thing? And they actually taught me how to do it. And then I did a lot of research on my own, like looking at, like there was, I think there was some videos on the Sealswik page that actually had like how to do the combat side stroke. So I like did those or I looked at those and I was like, all right, let me try to do these. And if I couldn't figure it out, I just showed it to my coach. I was like, how do I do that? Like, I don't really know. So they helped me figure it out and it was, it was awesome. It was a side note swimming is something I highly recommend people doing not just cause like it's a good skill to have. It is hard. It is not easy. And prior to buds, like I kind of think it gives you like a good edge on being like very, trying to be as comfortable as you can, being super uncomfortable, which is the water. Yeah. Well, it's probably a whole different thing to do the side stroke in a pool and then do it out there in the ocean surf, right? It's completely different. Yeah. Like it's wild. Like I remember like doing, I was like, yeah, once I like got like did the PSTs, I was like doing well. This is easy. How does anyone fail this? And then I did in the ocean. I was like, I'm like swimming in like zigzags because like you're not really, you have to like look up and guide. You don't have a line on the bottom to like show you where to go. So you're just kind of like it's actually a lot harder than you think on the ocean. So yeah, not to mention saltwater and current and cold and all of it. The Pacific is cold. People don't realize that San Diego seems like like you're like, oh, it's in San Diego. It's going to be really nice. I had since I moved back out here. I don't think I've been in the water since because I'm scarred. Wow. Well, that's great. So you were able to pick up those skills by looking at a resource on some website called sealswik.com. Go figure. And you didn't have a problem with the run? No. I just ended up, I think I was, I played soccer my whole life. So I was always running. So I was, I just never like really time myself until I got serious about training. I think I just kind of looked at like different regimens on like how to get good, which I actually I think was again on the, on the website. It either gave you some, it gave you resources to go like look at like, hey, if you want to get good at running or like want to figure out a plan, like maybe look at some of these videos or maybe look into this person. And then as I did my own research outside of that too, I was like, okay, there's running programs that can get you here or especially I think now there's a lot of books out for like Bud's training in specifics. So that's awesome. I'm glad those things are out there. So you got through bootcamp. You went to prep school? Yes, sir. Yeah. And Great Lakes. Yeah. And then came down here to Bud's. What was that, that first Bud's experience like for you? It was, it was really cool. I, I started with class 311 and I remember the, like just like the last class that went through, they went through like in the wintertime. So I guess it was like almost, I guess around like December timeframe and I went through in like the February for like hell week. And I remember just, we heard all the horror stories. Everyone's like, they got like decimated. A lot of people got sick. A lot of people got rolled. A lot of people got dropped. A lot of people quit and everyone's like the mass hysteria was starting to build and you're like, oh God, like, why are they all quit? Like why is it that bad? Like, holy cow. And then you finally get the Bud's and I'm like, if it's that like it's just a PST, right? Like, I mean, didn't people practice this before they went? I was like, isn't that like though? I was, I was so, I've seen like the Bud's documentaries that they did boats and logs, but like, and like the surf torture, but I didn't realize like that was the thing that like that's what made people quit. And in those videos, they don't really show like how much you do them. So I was like, I'm like, it's just the PST is the hard part. As long as I pass out, I'm good. And then I got here and people are like, no, dude, it's boats and logs. I was like, what do you mean? Don't we do that like a couple times? And I do the whole time. I was like, oh, dang, that's good. That's not going to be that cool. So I was like, well, we're here now. We might as well just do it. So it was such a cool experience, but it was really hard and being I was the youngest kid in my class. Me and a couple of other guys were like seven, 18 when we actually came to Bud's. So it was cool to have like the younger crew because everyone's always counting you out as like the young guy. So it was for me, it was almost like you always had a chip on your shoulder. Being a young guy, you were like, I'm not. No one's going to be right that I quit. Like no one's going to be like, oh, we expected him to quit. I was never going to let I was never going to fulfill someone's prophecy like that. Like for me, it was going to be like I'm getting through. I said, since I was 14, I'm going to get through. I'm doing it right now. So for me, it was kind of, it was really, really hard every single day was it was the hardest thing I've ever had that moment of clarity where you kind of like we're like, wow, did I do the right thing here? After Hell Week, yeah. After Hell Week is when I like I was like, because you're so driven, you're like just thinking of like one evolution at a time, one evolution at a time. And then like you get through Hell Week and then you're like, like it's just such an intense experience. Like it's very traumatic almost and you're kind of like at the end of it, you're like, did I do the right thing? Did I put myself through like all this, all this stuff years of my, in my mind of like training for this and doing like, is it worth it? Was it worth it? And like obviously there's times like, is it worth it? And you have to sit there and think about it. And that question got answered for me just every day. I was like after Hell Week, like it was like cool. Yeah, this is, this is still worth it to me. This is still worth it to me get through, got through SQT, went to the medics school. I was able to get through that. I was like, this is worth it. I'm hitting the goal, got to the ball tune. We did the workup, we did everything. And once you're at the ball tune and you do your workup, it's just like, it is the coolest thing ever. Like it was, it was every, it was like, dude, I'm doing the cool, I'm doing the things in the video I saw, like this is so cool of it. So it was worth it. There was that mental career. It was like, I hope this was worth it. I put my body through a lot and I can definitely attest that it, that it is. Yeah. Were you on West Coast team or East Coast team? I was East Coast team. So I did two deployments over at four and I did both of them to Europe. Oh, nice. Let me backtrack a little bit to the special operations tactical medic train because we do have a lot of guys that were interested see who thought the same thing as you. Yeah, I'd like to be a seal and I'd like to be a medic. Is there such an animal? Yes, there is. Oh, yeah. Tell us about it. Yeah, so when I, at the end of SQT, you're, you're kind of sorting out orders and they're like always slotting to get medics. So you, if you desire to be a medic, you put in for it when like your dream sheet and you're like, I want to do it. So right after SQT is when they would send you to the medics school. So they wouldn't, so like most guys go straight to their team and then they get their schools after that medics different because it's such a long school and at the time of me going through, we were still sending seals over to the army course. So special operations combat medics course over in Fort Bragg. So I spent like, we spent like 10 months to a year with the army out there and that was a really cool course. But a lot of my friends that I joined that we did like the medic course with they ended up whenever they took shore duties, they came and the Navy start like the NSW stood up their own medical course. So it's called Sod M. So a lot of the guys that I went through in the army course, they're over there standing up that schoolhouse and like teaching it and they've really revamped the curriculum like a lot. I think at a time, it's a lot shorter, right? It's a lot shorter, but it's also like the quality didn't go away. I think when they initially made the course, it was like, it was kind of like, is it going to be as good? Like that's always like, they don't want the quality to be surrendered, but they also want it faster. So I think in the beginning when it's growing stages, it was like the quality wasn't like, wasn't what they want it, but as like, as it's just evolved that course, it's just gotten so much better and it's on par with what the army had, if not better, like he is. I think they make quality medics faster. Tell me a little bit about that, that Sodom course, like if I wanted to be the medic, what exactly does that mean? What am I going to do? What am I going to learn to do in the Sodom course? Yeah, so this is actually really cool. It's like such a really cool thing to talk about because it's you are learning to be that guy that like when things are at like the heightened stress period, like not even just like just the op, like when things are going really, really wrong on the operation, like they're expecting you to know and save your buddy and it's going to be your friend, like you've worked with this guy or probably might be people you're working with or been working with a couple of months. So to be the medic, you're, they're constantly stressing that throughout the training is like, hey, get all this right because this is going to be somebody know sometimes like, so don't overlook it and they give you this realistic feel of like being able to like train in real life, like not real life scenarios, but like they make the scenarios very realistic. So that way you get the most out of the training and by the end of it, you feel you feel like you can definitely help your buddy, like you feel super confident that you can do it. Whereas like when you first start, like when you first start the training, they're like, you're going to have to save your buddy and you're like, I don't know anything about, don't count on me yet. Like pretty much and by the end of it, you're like, yeah, absolutely. I feel very confident that I can do that. So we're probably not talking about open heart surgery, but no triage medicine. Absolutely. Yeah. So as far as what medics are concerned, it's like, I think the best comparison is a paramedic with just a little bit broader scope of practice for the skills, meaning like, okay, they initially somebody gets hit and you have to triage the patient. So you have to A, win the firefight, then you have to get your buddy out of there, then you have to stop whatever is happening, like whether that's a massive hemorrhage, whether that's an airway obstruction, and then run through your entire algorithm that they run you extensively through. And from there, you're just each patient's so different. So you're constantly like always trying to level that person up to get them to a higher level of care. So like you kind of just said, like it's triaging, like, okay, if we have multiple of these people, who needs to go first if there's only a limited amount of assets? Right. So you take care of the immediate problem. Stop the bleeding, for instance, sucking chest wound, whatever. Yeah. Get them stabilized and then ready for to evac. Correct. That's pretty much it. Yeah, exactly. And that's actually, and that sounds really simple. It's not. Yeah, it's such a long process. It's pretty hairy. You know, you're under fire or you got, you know, adrenaline rush, the whole thing, but that is the difference between life and death. I think for most of the guys who have been hit pretty hard, that can mean all the difference, right? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's that pre-hospital care and all the doctors in the hospital really harp on it. And that's why you see a lot of the hospitals like being so invested in the pre-hospital setting. So because a lot of like that initial like how the patient's going to do later, it really depends on how like how they are responding like in the beginning or how they're being treated in the beginning to like, if you give them a treatment that's a not like warranted, you could hurt this patient even more and cause more of a problem. So it's that pre-hospital care is just so important. So you've got a couple of really exciting aspects to your SEAL training. You've gone through the whole pipeline here at center, the training pathway for SEALs, buds, that's quite an experience all by itself in SQT. And then you have the tactical medicine training. So you checked off the original block right there about being a medic, combat medic. Then you're assigned to a team. You got your pumps out to the theater. You come back and then you got into ATC for combatives training for combatives instructor. How did that happen? So while I was over at team four, we have kind of like different phases of the cycle, but one of those phases is professional development. Just means like they send you to schools that will, as an individual operator, will enhance your abilities in operators. So one of those schools is combatives instructor course, which I had always done martial arts since I was 14. So when I like had an opportunity to go to this course, it was a month long out here in San Diego and it was just all the things I was already doing as my hobby just for work for a month. So I got to come out here and once I had completed the course, I was like the combatives instructor for my platoon. Now we get that question a lot from people. Do you get to pick those schools or does the team pick them for you? There's a little bit of both. So as like when you're new into the platoon, you you're always putting like even as like an older guy, you're still always going to be putting like your dream like your wish list down. You're like, hey, I would let's say, let's say it was being a sniper. Like I as a new guy, I want to be a sniper. Okay. Okay. Cool. That's a very big qualification that has a lot of responsibility. Maybe maybe the chief is probably going to reserve that spot for someone with more experience. But here's some other courses we have like specific requirements for each platoon that need to be filled. Let's go ahead and like, hey, you take these courses and if you take like, if you if you're the guy that when you come to the platoon, you're like, hey, I'll do whatever course you need me to do. I'd prefer if if it was something that got me towards being the sniper that I want to be or being the breacher, being the medic. If it was courses that could get me there, that'd be awesome. But ultimately like I'm here for the platoon like that's what every chief in OIC and everyone in their platoon wants to hear, especially from a new guy. Yeah, be be a teammate. That's really what it is. Yeah. So like it's a little bit of both like you can request and sometimes requests will get filled. But there are other schools that are like, hey, we got to send somebody this. Yeah. All right. Cool. I'm there. Send me the comms guy exactly. Yeah, you're the guy. Most most people aren't really wanting to go the comms right away, but then they're like, all right. Well, we need somebody to do it. Like, okay, cool. Well, I'll do it. Leads to JTAC and who knows. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So let's go back to the nitty gritty stuff here, the MMA. So you got into professional MMA where you're actually part of a circuit. Yes. So tell me a little bit more about that. So once I got to be a combative instructor out here, I started doing some amateur fights in the area. So I was fighting for one of the local promotions around here, just trying to get my experience together. And I was competing a lot in nogi grappling, which is just pretty much submission wrestling. So I was staying pretty active on the scene with all that. And then a European promotion that decided to set like pretty much set their roots in America for like the first time set it in San Diego. And fortunate for me, that was right around when I was going when I wanted to go pro and when I was kind of done being it being in the amateur circuit. So the organization is called Cage Warriors. If you've heard of Conor McGregor, it's the it's the league he came out of before you went to the UFC. So it's a very well established league and ever Conor McGregor is the most famous for that, but like there's been tons of fighters that go into the UFC after this one. It's been back in June. I was supposed to make like my professional debut on there the last like the last couple of days. My opponent ended up having to pull out due to like an illness. So I had to wait till September to do that. And then I had my first fight in December like professional fight in December. I ended up winning by TKO in the second round. Wow. And so the next one's right here on the right here on the rise and probably by the time folks hear this, it'll be over. Yeah, but that'll be match number two professionally for you and then kind of moving forward from there. Somebody might ask, well, how do you do this and do a Navy Seal career at the same time? It has to be at a short command to have that to have the the dedication to do to be a professional in a sport, but also to be a professional in your job. You have to be in a spot where you could you like what I mean is like, you don't have if I'm in a platoon, I wouldn't be able to do this because I would need to be there for the platoon and it wouldn't be fair for them if I was fighting and it's and that that's really ultimately what you need to be. So being at combatives where I can go teach the skills that I'm learning allows me like the training schedule that I can get to train to be a professional fighter to answer your question shortly. It's without the Navy has this supportive of it and it's been the fact that they're so supportive is why I'm able to do these things. And I'm just super grateful for it too. I would suspect the Navy sees that they might be getting something out of that too because of the experience of your, you know, matches in MMA. There's techniques perhaps that you can bring over to the curriculum and add to that. Yeah, and you know, and that's like that's kind of how I like that's how I think of it too. And that's how I hope that everyone sees it, especially as like the rotation of commands come. I hope that's how they see it. It always like sometimes feels guilty because it's like this is like the thing I love doing. I love I love fighting and I love being a seal. So it was like I got to be at a job where I could do both of those things. So for me, it just kind of like it's always like a little bit of like a guilty feeling. I'm like, I'm doing like I'm doing the things I love like this is it's really not. It doesn't feel like a job to me. So so what's next up for you? We know you have this match coming up in a couple of days, but the outlook beyond that as far as MMA or career wise, cool as a seal and as an MMA fighter. What what's next? Yeah, so I'm I'm extremely fortunate that the Navy allows me to like fight and I'm actually about to move over to the outreach program from being combat as instructed to the outreach program out here and and they're going to I'm going to we're going to go to local tournaments or tournaments around the country to and I'll be competing at them and wherever I'm fighting, we'll be able to do the outreach there. So that's awesome. And then as far as my career for nogi grappling and MMA goes, I'm looking to to just try to break through on the ADCC circuit. And essentially that's like the Olympics for like grab for like Jiu Jitsu on like the private side. It's not really like it's kind of hard to describe, but that's the easiest comparison I can give to people. You have to qualify for the tournament through trials. And then once you win the trials, you go to the tournament and you have to try to win the tournament. So for the kumite, right? Kind of. But yeah, so that that's called ADCC. And then so I'm looking to to win that and make a name for myself in the grappling field. And then for MMA, the goal is for me to I want to make it to the UFC, you know, I want to like win a championship there as well. Oh, yeah. Where are you at in your seal career now? So right now I'm currently about nine and a half years in and now since I've been at combatives for a couple of years now and since just because of the way the rotation has to work, I'm just going to come over here and do the rotation. And then by the time I'm done with the outreach, I'll either transition to the reserves or if if fighting is continually going the way at like in an upward trajectory, but if it's not or I decide that fighting is not just not what I want to do anymore. Like as far as like a profession, then back to a blatoon for me. Yeah, that's ultimately because this I think either way when I'm done fighting, whether I'm a little older or not, I'll probably be going back to the blatoon just because I mean they've given me this opportunity to to see out a dream, not really having to do with the military and kind of working with me to figure out like how we can work with each other to make it work. So I mean, I'm just super grateful for it and I definitely don't take for granted and I don't want to like misspeak or misrepresent a community by saying like, oh, yeah, like war is all about X, Y and Z. I've only done non combat deployments. I got a chance to learn and teach about war and do my fundamental form of warfare in the cage. But after that, all that's done probably back back to the blatoons for me. Yeah, most people don't know that we have two reserve SEAL teams. Oh, yeah, that's one on the East Coast and one on the West Coast. We don't advertise it a lot and it's not something you can get to as a non SEAL. You've got to be an active duty SEAL first. Do your time. Then you can elect to go into a reserve SEAL team, but you can't be a reservist first and then try to lad over into a reserve SEAL team. You've got to come here. You've got to go through the buds. You've got to do active tours. And then after that, you have the opportunity and you found out about that as an option with your active duty. Which is awesome. Yeah, because I think a lot of guys, myself included, this is something you've spent a good deal of your life doing and it's kind of hard to walk away. Even if you're good job teed up and you're good, you've done everything great in your career, you've always, I think, everyone you talk to, they still have that hesitancy of walking away from something they've done most of their lives. I grew up in the teams of 27 now. I joined when I was 17. So my entire adult life has really been this. So I think personally for me, I think a lot of the guys may feel this way is like having the reserves is an option to be able to just keep my foot in the door and affiliate it to the community in some way or form like still allows you to breeze a little like, all right, I can go chase some ambitions in the real world. And then, hey, if I want to come back to the military side, I have my foot in the door where I can go back if I want to, or just do my one weekend a month. Yeah, they call those guys up all the time. All the time, yeah. There's always a reserve augment going out with the teams where there might be a shortfall or something. And so those guys still get plenty of opportunities to go deploy if they want to. And if you were, let's say you were getting ready to get out and you're like, okay, I'm going to stick with the reserves, the reserve seal teams just to keep my foot in, what would your day job be? Fighting for me. But yeah, I would try to keep my career as fighting. But also, just because the skills I have developed in the military, it could go just a bunch of different ways, like with, hey, maybe we figure out a way to get combatives out to some of these local law enforcement areas, like local police departments, maybe border patrol, SWAT, whoever, whatever homeland security entity would like training, like maybe that could be a good way of getting your foot in the door that way. For me, it's combatives. That's just kind of, I think that's just where my life has always been and always will be. But like I think for any of the other seals, it's like that aren't super, super into combatives. Like there's a ton of things in our job that translate into like the law enforcement sector where like you can either be a law enforcement officer or you can go ahead and help them train for their things. We've been in for 10 years. So you've seen some guys get out. What kind of jobs are they getting? So some people are doing things like that. A lot of guys that I have known have gotten their MBAs and off into some really high-end business jobs and they're doing very successful for themselves. So that's kind of a lot of jobs like that. And honestly, it's kind of hard because you can kind of do whatever you want. Like I think a lot of people, a lot of businesses outside of like a lot of businesses when like you're transitioning out are very excited to get a seal because I think they know what they're getting. They're getting someone that works really hard, someone who's very dedicated to what they want to do and that can work in a team-based environment. So for businesses, like that's easy for them and also like leadership positions too. That's like if they need a manager, they probably know that they can fast-track that seal like soon after whatever grad school they do or whatever undergrad they do into whatever business field that they want to. So the world's kind of their oyster. It's kind of great. I have a friend that's, he's a seal right now. He's going to go put in for his officer package. He wants to go be a fighter pilot and maybe like he's going to go do some crazy things. I'm like, so the world's your oyster. Like that's a completely different route. He's staying in the military but he could do something similar on the private sector for that too. So, but yeah, there's just so many cool things that I've just seen like the creativity of a lot of people like doing jobs and also some people are just content to chill. Like they've done, for me, I've only done 10 years. Some of these guys have done 20 years and like they're like, I'm cool. I'm good. I don't need to, like they can retire. Now they can like have like some passive income coming through and maybe they get a job that that's just something that just brings extra money into and they get to enjoy their families a little bit more too. Yeah, I think that about covers that for today. We got to run along. We're starting to run out of time here. Yeah, Bobby Winther MMA fighter, Navy Seal. Appreciate you being on the show today. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And this was the only easy day was yesterday. I'm Scott Williams. Until the next time.