 Welcome back, everybody. What's up? Welcome back. Hello. So we're going to do another one of these. Last time we did, what we do about every month, roughly. Last time we missed our friend Kelly, she was absent from that one. Hope you brought a note. Do you have a doctor's note? I do, actually. I was like, hey, I had a really special event. I'm going to get in big trouble. I will no longer be allowed to be in this friend group. And they were like, I totally understand. Here you go. We're very particular and picky, obviously. And we do readily eject people from the friend group. Yeah, you seem very elitist, for sure. We've ejected people from the friend group far less. Yeah. Anyway, joining me as always, Lauren Rosen, Kelly Frankie, two spectacular OCD specialists from Southern California and host of the Purely OCD podcast for them. Thanks for having us aboard. Any of you who are visiting from our end, that guy is Drew Linsolata. Obviously, this is his channel. He's awesome. He writes books. He's in school to become a therapist himself, actually, and will be a wonderful addition to the field. Very good, as long as they don't get ejected from the friend group before then. Well, no guarantees, man. Sorry. Let's go. Tough room. So anyway, today we are going to be talking about why the words we choose in recovery kind of matter. And I think this is a great, great topic that we made up 10 minutes ago. Yeah, it's true. It was only about 10, 15 minutes ago. Well, let's open this. Lauren, I think it was yours, right? Yes, I guess it was my, yeah. Yeah, I think there are a lot of ways in which the words we use impact recovery. And I think the one that I threw out was the I can't versus I won't, although there are countless other examples. But yeah, just the idea that oftentimes we'll hear people who are in recovery say things like, well, I can't do that. Or one of the sort of ways that this is manifested is like, oh, well, my OCD or my anxiety kept me from doing X. And it's a problem, right? It completely strips us of our power and our ability to change. Is that a thing you guys would challenge when your clients bring that to you, the language? Yeah, I mean, because it's the flexibility piece, right? It's like if we say we can't, then there's no room for future growth or flexibility in any way. And also, there's a part of owning it, right? Like having ownership in, I am just not willing to do it right now, right? Yeah, that's the best part of that, right now. Right now, right? Yeah, that's OK. How can we make steps towards that? And it just keeps the conversation going for growth and change versus just shutting it down right now. Yeah, I can't. Yeah. The other one, Lauren, you mentioned my anxiety or kept me from or made me, made me do that. That's another one. Yeah, I would just sort of, you can kind of see how it's an iteration of that, right? I mean, I couldn't say no or I had to do this because of the fact, yeah. But I think in that, oh, shoot, I was going to say something and it's gone. Damn. Out of the friend group, that's it. Done. I'm out. You're getting caught, man. Fun too many times. Yeah. Well, go ahead. Did you get that thought or no? No, it's gone. So there's the, well, my anxiety made me or I couldn't do that, which is essentially a can. Another one that I like to attack sometimes because I'm that way is XYZ makes me anxious. Usually it's coffee makes me anxious. Does it or does it change the way your body feels? Right. Well, and even down to thoughts too. Oh, well, that thought made me anxious. It's like, well, it's actually kind of your interpretation of the thought that led to the anxiety or that created the anxiety or that trigger made me anxious. It's like, well, again, interpretation of it is really what we're talking about there. Yeah. Yeah. Nuanced, but I think that matters. It does. It comes off as if we're being nitpicky, but in reality, we're not. It's like, truly, shockingly, there's a lot of research that shows that how we talk to ourselves really matters that we start to internalize that voice. If we're constantly critiquing ourselves or beating ourselves up, it's like, well, not surprising. That doesn't go well. And we have low self-confidence. But why would it be any different if we're saying I can't? Or even with children, if you hear them saying, I don't know how to do that. So then that's saying I can't do it. It's like, well, right now, in this moment, you don't know how to. And we're going to learn how to do that. Yeah, I don't know how to do that yet. Or I can't. Yeah, I don't know how to do that yet. Then that's OK, because we are going to learn. It came back to me. The thing earlier. Thank god. Am I going to be back in the front of this very public? On the eject button. You're welcome. Oh. So I think part of the reason that it's difficult, whether we're talking about the straight up saying, I can't do something versus I'm not willing at this point, or putting it on the, well, the anxiety made me do this, or I couldn't resist, is I think part of the reason that that's a go-to is that the element of self-compassion is so difficult for people. And in that, holding oneself accountable while also being kind, really, that's a very delicate balance to keep. And if you can't hold both of those, then of course you're going to say, oh, well, I had no choice. Because the other alternative is to beat the living pulp out of yourself. And so making space for there to be like, oh, well, I'm working on this, and I'm making progress. And this where I'm willing to do this, and I'm working toward my willingness to do this is a really, I think that's an antidote to that issue. Yeah, you're probably right. It lets yourself off the hook to a certain extent. Yeah, which if you can't be kind to yourself while you're on the hook, then. Then when can you? Right. Yeah. And that would lock you into, there's that argument. And I think, so I'll make two points here. One is that if you're going to stick to the old language, I can't, it made me, it does this, it not me, it it it. OK, fair enough. But it's really hard to say, hey, Lauren, hey, Kelly, help me. But I'm also going to stay locked in that language that negates all the help that you're giving me. Isn't that a tough one? That's a tough place to be in. You're not giving yourself a chance. Absolutely. You have to at least be open to the idea that maybe a change of language could be something you should at least try. Yeah. Yeah. And one way we do that, too, is just in session ourselves is when somebody is challenging something or they're doing an exposure. Or it's not necessarily correcting them every single time, although I might do that at a time when there's a really strong language that's going on. But just how we speak to our clients is over time learning because we are going to hold you accountable, yet do it in a really compassionate way. And we will use that language so that eventually it will start to kind of sink in. It's like, well, what got into in the way this time? OK, so let's talk about it. And not judging, not saying what's wrong with you. And a lot of times clients will go, I didn't want to come to session because, and I think we've actually had a whole conversation on this. But I didn't want to come to session because I didn't do my homework. And I thought that you would judge me, right? Zero judgment. Let's actually find a way to get, see, look what happened, what got in the way, how can we troubleshoot it. So then they go, oh, wow, maybe this is how we talk to people, right? Ourselves included, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And it's funny because some of that language, it's not only on the, let's see, it's not only on the client side, it can be on the helper side. So ridiculous, horrible cliches like, we'd never fail. We either win or learn, and it's horrible. But it's true, and it encourages that change of language, like stop saying you failed. What can you learn in that situation? Yeah, as long as you learn something, there's no fail. And I do believe- There really isn't, I so believe, I believe it so strongly. Yeah. Same, having that growth mindset is so key to the recovery process, seeing every sort of pitfall or thing that you might see as a failure, as actually the impetus for growth. Like it's not even just seeing as not a problem, but as necessary and fundamental to the process. Yeah, it has to be. So I think people would then tend to ask like, okay, so I just start talking about a different, well, that changes everything? Well, not necessarily, but I think some of the stuff that you were talking about before, like you're giving up your power. If you just say, I can't, you know, okay, well, you're giving up your power in your agency. And that comes in the realization where the language might give you a chance to distance a little bit from the crisis so that you can slice that, those time slices into tiny, tiny slices. Know that there's a small slice between the stimulus and the response that you get to act in. Yeah. Yeah, and changing the language tends to like get you into shoe horns, you into that moment where you can make a choice, where you thought that makes any sense. I don't know if that makes any sense. Yes, I totally agree. And I think it's almost like it's an element, it's an interrupting element. If you know that you have this tendency to say, I can't, and you have that sort of awareness that you're cultivating, then you hear yourself say, you're gonna go, wait a second. This is a, it's an indicator to me that I need to sort of take a look at what's going on right now. So it's not even necessarily about the words themselves, but about recognizing where the messages that you're handing yourself all the time are sort of thoughtless potentially and are contributing to the problem. Yeah, I would agree with that. I'm looking for a quote, by the way, that I think is gonna be. Oh, I think I have it in my office. Is it the Victor Frankel quote? No, it's not a different book, Chatter by Ethan Cross. Oh, I haven't read it, but I've, yeah, I've read parts of it. Yeah, I'm a big fan. He does this whole thing about third party speak. Where you talk about yourself in the third party. And this, again, he's not just making it up. There's a fair amount of research, some of which he did himself, that talks about that. He calls it distancing. So sometimes changing the language really matters and that people who talk about themselves in the third party and reference themselves, not so like, oh, what's going on? It's, come on Drew, you can do this. I might say to myself, it actually seems to make a difference. Like we can validate that empirically. So yeah, you can see why the words and the way you talk about it can make a difference. That's my, really interesting. That's super interesting. I love that. And it can be framed in the self-compassion piece, too, right, is like, I'm here for you. I know you're, you can do this. Even that language can be. Yeah, they call it linguistic immersion. So if you're gonna always say, I can't, I felt, I did, you know, that's a tough spot. But if you start to talk about yourself in the third person, as silly as that might sound, just we don't normally do that, you distance yourself from that immersion and you get a little bit of space that you can work in. So, it'll be fascinating. I love that. I think this epiphany moment of, I guess it's not an epiphany, but a thought around, I wonder if having a client write a letter to self for something that they're feeling really stuck on. Oh, not to themselves. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. Like I know you don't wanna do this because it's so uncomfortable and it's painful and this is, it's almost like this self-compassion letter of that could be probably empowering, depending on who you're doing it with, I guess. Yeah, it might be because if I watch, I mean, I don't wanna watch you struggling, my friends, but if I was watching you struggle, I watch from a distance. So, I get a little bit of objectivity. If I'm struggling, I have no distance. So, that right to yourself, talking to third party helps give you that little bit of break. I wanna read that book. I'm curious. I know, it's called Chatter. Yeah, it is a right, yeah, Chatter. Yeah, essentially all about how conventional wisdom says, go inside and tap into your inner voice. We all know that in this environment, that goes way off the rails. Way off the rails, he wrote about it. It's really fascinating, it's a good book. Quick read, too, we'll get through it. And does he give you examples of like how to do it? Yeah, yeah, he gives us some really interesting examples. One of the cool things was getting into an awestruck state where they use nature as part of the therapeutic process. So, if you put yourself in the middle of like Zion National Park, it's beautiful, you're awestruck. You are outside of yourself instantly and your struggles are distant now. And the difference is that some of the studies that have been run with like veterans that combat veterans with PTSD, like the difference is astounding. And it's all about interrupting that internal, like go inside and chatter with myself. Talks about co-rumination, why we think commiserating with each other seems to, it's supposed to be good, right? That has a limit and then it goes bad. Yeah. Yeah, anyway. But it's a lot about this, what we're talking about today, the language, the language, the language, it matters. That's so interesting. Cause when I was on my journey of recovery through trauma work, I think being in nature was the key element to it is I was really in the moment. Yeah, and out of your own head. Yeah, I was like in it. I was looking at all the beautiful, being curious about everything. It was such like, it was a break from my mind. So, yeah. There's such a clear element of connection in that. Yeah, grounded, yeah. It gets you outside of yourself to a certain point. You get it within the I speaking, you start speaking or at least engaging linguistically or, you know, well, the relational frame theory, here it comes, with the outside world. Anyway, wow, we went off on a tangent, not a book review. Sorry. I got us there, I threw us first. We're not, no, it's, well, but bringing it back to where I think it started with like getting outside of yourself and how that element, when you brought in Nathan Cross's book, is like when you are talking to other people, generally, I find it's sort of when you're trying to reflect on what your genuine values are or the way that you want to behave in a situation, it's so much clearer to see in terms of how you treat other people. And so it doesn't surprise me at all that like that third person language is so helpful in that because we are generally kinder and because of that objectivity. So sort of channeling that and saying like, oh, this is really hard for you right now. Or like I see, and I guess that's actually second person language, technically, but do you know what I mean? Like having some sort of space between like talking to yourself as though you are somebody else is going to maybe give you, it's gonna hook you into how you wanna be as a person versus the patterns that you have been practicing for a long time that are ingrained and that are oftentimes related to fear of judgment and wanting to do it by everybody else's rules, not your own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's easy to be kind to other people. We never be kind, we're never kind to ourselves, why? So that's a really good point. What about not just the words themselves, the linguistic choices, but I also think the frequency of the amount that you talk about this tends to be an issue too. How often, and I always tell people, in the thick of it, I would have told anybody with two years and a half a second how I was feeling. Like I would want to tell everybody because that was just the most important thing in the room all the time. How do you get people out of that? Are you talking about when you with OCD or Panic or what? Yeah, I think kind of all of those things. It just becomes the most important topic in my life and I just want to talk about it constantly to anybody who will listen. That's a tough one to be too. That's a language thing. And I would say it's getting too much airtime, right? Because we're putting it on a pedestal. And we're saying this is the most important thing, which then says, oh right, we have no power over this. Right, instead of taking action and steps that try to treat this instead of just talking, like let's take action instead. Yeah. Well, it almost becomes compulsive talking about it, right? Yeah, it kind of does. If you're, well, you guys know, you have an audience as well. You know what it sounds like. You know what the comment section looks like. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's not a bad thing. I mean, I was there too. We all went, we were all. All of us, yeah, absolutely. But this is the problem with traditional psychotherapy in this context as well, is that the idea, we look back to Freud and the idea of ab reaction, right? I mean, I have a cathartic emotional experience by reliving this challenging thing. And then I'll get over it, right? Like then I'll be free of it and we can move on with our lives. It's like the idea that like if we grieve properly, then we can sort of move on. And generally speaking, it's not as limited as that. Like there's almost something addictive about wanting to go back over it because it's going to give this release that you can kind of become hooked on the, like that relief or release or whatever that catharsis is versus saying like, no, this is just, this is going to be part of the experience. And I don't necessarily want to give it as much airtime or talk about it as much because I've got, I've got other more important things going on and then starting to center other things in your life is probably actually going to promote you moving forward even with all of that experience. Yeah, I think that compulsion to talk better all the time was almost justified by sort of that Freudian thing that was built a hundred and someone. You know, we have to talk it out. Talking about your things is good, right? That's good. Yes. Not always. No, no, actually getting to living our life is the most important thing in this instance. Yeah. And that might include not process it, not processing it by talking out loud around it. Things that come up to you guys might appreciate the whole processing. I need to process it. I need to unpack it. And I always like to think, well, you know what? Right now, you can't unpack it. You'll be able to unpack it when the day comes that you don't feel like you have to unpack it. Then your problem is to unpack. That's a good point. So I think that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent point. Totally. And that might be a different type of processing than you expected. It might be more of like grieving. Sure. Or some type, how it impacted your life and how you want to do things differently versus, oh my gosh, I can't handle this feeling. Yeah. Actually, it's interesting that we kind of took this turn here because it sort of speaks to one of the other language things that I think can be really problematic. Which is that we don't necessarily, when we talk about thoughts and feelings, we often confuse the two. And also thinking. So in this, this is where the connection initially came about from what we were talking about is processing and feeling and emotion are two very different things. One is cognitive. It's thinking about the emotion. It's chatting about the emotion. And the other is actually being with the underlying physical sensations that comprise that emotion. And I think if we're saying, okay, you know, we want you to accept your feelings. Sometimes people then go, oh well, then I'm supposed to process it a lot. I'm supposed to think about it a lot, which is not what we're talking about at all. But it's, yeah, there's a couple in that realm, like I'm having the thought that versus saying, I feel like, like that's a big one that I think is super problematic. Because when you hear, I feel like it converges a certain amount of like importance to it. Like, oh well, it feels that way. So it must be that way versus saying, I'm having the thought that this is the case and I feel anxious. Yeah, I noticed I'm feeling anxiety come up when I- Yes. Yeah. I've tried to get people to just do, and I'm thinking, end of story. I'm thinking, not I'm thinking about or it feels like or this means just, I'm thinking, oh, I'm thinking again. I don't feel, yeah. I love that though, like processing, experiencing an emotion, one is an experience and one is an action. Like having an emotion is an experience. Processing an emotion is an action. Two different things. Yeah, right, yeah. But there's already like tons of mental compulsions going on that is an action as well. It's like this mental event. Yes. This is exhausting. Yeah, it is exhausting. It's the difference between like processing it out loud versus processing it in your head. Like those are, you know. Mm-hmm. I can't even see where this discussion would fuel some like consternation now. Am I processing? Am I experiencing? Am I thinking like, oh, it's really hard. Just like- Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. Let me throw a word out to be, and this way I get the crowd all riled up here. Here's a word that I would strike from the line. Well, there's a couple of words I would strike from language, but one of them, and this is, I know people don't really like when I say this, I would strike the word healing from the language temporarily. Temporarily. Temporarily, not permanently. Everybody's had to heal, and we probably all have some healing to do. But sometimes it makes me crazy when people talk about their anxiety recovery as a healing process. When what if it's a learning process? Just as much as healing, or as opposed to healing. This healing has a connotation that like there's some sort of thing that's broken and need to fix. Or I have an impairment of some kind that I am trying to repair. And I'm not sure that that doesn't really put you in a good spot. Right, yeah. Just be me. No, I can see that. And I wonder if part of that too is like that you're going to start resisting the experience because the experience needs to be changed. Like it kind of has that flavor of it in terms of like I have to heal from the anxiety or the feeling versus I'm actually trying to learn how to live with it. I can kind of see that being a part of what you're talking about. And also just the idea of like, it's almost there's disruption in it more than healing necessarily, rightly. We're looking to actually like sort of dredge things up a little bit. So I can see where like that word is so sort of laden that it might be not as helpful. The word puts you behind the eight ball a little bit too because if I break my leg, I might want to go to the gym to fix my leg but I have to wait for it to heal because it is weak at the time. Sometimes when you know, while I'm trying to heal from anxiety, it automatically says that you're incapable in some way or your capabilities are diminished. Your state of your perceived state of being may be a state of wellbeing may be diminished but are your capabilities really diminished because isn't that part of what's driving the avoidance anyway? The idea that I'm diminished, my capabilities are diminished. Right, right. I have to heal first. I have to wait for the right time to get all of this. Yeah, right. Once all the ducks are in a row, then I can jump into my exposures. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, that's my little rant about healing. I like how you skillfully did not jump on my bedwagon which is a big thumbs up, so. I don't know, I think I kind of did. I know. You did a little bit, but yeah, now I get it. I know sometimes people, and you know what, if you like the word healing, right, don't let me tell you. You know what, I don't think it comes up a lot in where I don't see that a lot. So I wonder if it's exclusive to maybe your Facebook groups or something. Yeah, I mean, I hear all the time. I'm healing my nervous system. I have to heal from anxiety. I'm on my healing journey from anxiety and like, oh, okay. That's where I was seeing it is like this idea, like we have to resolve the experience. Like you're not supposed to feel anxiety at the end of this or, and that's, I actually, I will totally get on this bandwagon with you 1,000% is that it's different from, it is fundamentally different from going to the doctor and say like, okay, I have this broken arm we need to fix. It's like the end game there is for the arm to no longer be broken. Right. And our, sorry. Yeah, and we'll know. And that's exactly, it's the opposite in a way. It's like, we're actually saying, we actually want to live with the broken arm. We want to learn to live with it. We want to learn to go to the gym. Like you said, true. And actually work with the broken arm. So it's like the metaphor, it only has a certain extent where it then starts to not work here is like, we actually are learning how like healing, it's almost like we have to reinvent or give it a new definition. Right. It's like healing actually means feeling anxiety. Mm-hmm. Like killing our relationship with anxiety as opposed to healing anxiety. Yeah. Yeah, healing is like, well, I have to rebuild my broken self. And like my assertion would be like, no, no, you're learning that you weren't nearly as broken as you were. Yeah, you're learning. Yes. I do like the learning piece. Yeah. Yeah, I'm learning it. It's all part of that language. There you go. My work here is done clearly. Yeah. I changed one word for you today. Let it be that. Yeah. We're about 26 minutes in. What do you have anything else that you want to talk about language? We could probably talk about this for hours. Oh yeah, I'm sure. For sure. Practical tips. Now I come into either one of you as a client. You know, we have to try at least to give them one video where we give them something at the end where we solve the problem. Do we not do that? I'm convinced that at the end of every one of these videos, everybody's like, okay, but I still feel like crap and they didn't fix that. Okay, but that's the whole thing. Thank you. There it is. It's like, none of this is going to happen overnight too. I actually was going to end on this note. Let's do it. Okay, was that us saying, let's talk to ourselves nicely. Let's talk about willingness versus I can't. And all of those language things is like, you have to do that. You've been talking to yourself like shit for 20 years or 40 years. And now you're gonna learn a whole new set of skills of consciously redirecting and restating the statement and talking to ourselves kinder and holding ourselves accountable. It's not going to, you're just not going to feel better. It's not the one solution. And it's going to take a long time before you actually integrate that as, oh, this is how I talk to myself. I don't have to like stop and go, oh, I'm not, I'm talking mean to myself. It's like, it's actually going to take a long time before you get there and it's integrated. And it's not going to happen overnight with all the stuff we talk about. That's true. That's a shit beginning else is going to take some time and practice, you're going to get it wrong. You're going to fall back into old habits. That's just the way it is. It's how we're wired. Yeah, I love that. It's not going to be just this one aha moment where you're like, oh, I'm all better now. If only. Oh, it's both compassion. Boom. Yeah, there it is. Yeah. There's the difference between the cognitive understanding and the experiential learning that happens is like that it is much. If we're just down to a book, then one person would have written a book and then we'd all be, you know, nobody would ever need anybody else or any other help or support. Yeah. So when you say to yourself, talking in cruel ways to yourself, you know what the answer to that is. This aggression will not stand, man. This aggression will not stand. I know by the way that you said that that has to be a little masqueradish. It will not stand, man. It will not stand, man. Anyway, thanks anyway. Can I throw one other thing? I want, isn't it like an addition to all of this is that going back to Drew's point earlier, it's the words, we don't want to be pedantic here. We're not trying to be nitpicky and you don't have to get perfectionistic about using the right words. That's not like the point of this conversation. The point is to look at maybe what you're assuming to be truth and how like the easiest way to catch that is reflected in the language that we use. And so if it's like, I can't, it's not, oh, well, that's a bad word and you should never use it. It's an identifier to me that you're operating through this lens of like almost a victim consciousness versus a growth mindset and that we probably want to look at that. So because people can turn all of these things into like black and white to really recognize that like this conversation is actually just more about awareness and developing awareness of what, what your language could be telling you rather than like you should all, you should never use that word. Right, so. Or being prescriptive. We're not trying to be prescriptive here. Say these words. Yeah, yeah, no, not at all. No. No. Very good. Thanks everybody. Appreciate it. Let me put everybody up on the screen here. Lauren, you're not on my screen anymore. I'm not. So if you want to find these two fine human beings, you can find Kelly here at the OCD therapist. And Lauren is at the obsessive mind. By the time I type it, everybody will go away anyway. So I can't tell you. Don't worry about it. It's fine. And you should be listening to Purely OCD, which is Lauren and Kelly's podcast. It's really good. Thanks. Thanks for having us again and not ejecting us out of the friendship. Well, yeah, did I make it? Are we okay? You did. You almost didn't, Lauren. He lost your name on his. He did. He deleted it. He was like halfway there. Oh my God. You were actually booted by Nathan Peterson a few weeks ago. Oh, Nathan. Nathan's a good dude, though. So like if you're going to be booted by Nathan. Yeah. That's true. It's a good replacement. I'm honored. I'm honored to be booted by Nathan. Folks, thanks for coming out and hanging out with us. If you have more comments or questions, just keep posting them here on YouTube. And if need be, I will drag Kelly and Lauren back in to answer them. I ain't lying to you. Love being dragged. Yeah. See you next time. We're out. Bye.