 Okay so here we are in Leicester Square London. There's been many attempts at trying to change Earthling Ed's mind without success. Let's see if they can change mine. So what we've got on the screen is Land of Hope and Glory here. Filmed by Earthling Ed and his partner Luna. Like they're thinking about it but they don't want to come up and chat about it hey. What's your video? Oh dude, you've got vegan food? I have, yes I have got vegan food. Oh wow. I watch your videos and I think you're very great. My name's Hannah. Hannah, nice to meet you Hannah. What do you think of the sign? I do like the sign, it did make me smile. Hard to defend hey. Yeah it's definitely hard to defend. Yeah you see how we go though. Nice to meet you. She's already vegan. Must have turned a vegan just from the sign. Maybe a lot of people couldn't change my mind. What about this guy? What's your name? Charles. Are you local are you? No I'm up here from the south. Oh really? UK. So we've got a sign here. You read the sign? Yeah I've read the sign and it's very difficult to look at that and say you could change anybody's mind because I don't think you'll find that many meat eaters would actually support animal abuse so that statement you've got on the front there is a little bit controversial. Do you think it's false statement? I think it's a hard statement to support. Really? It's a broad statement isn't it? It's something that may be vegans and strict vegans who took it for maybe conscious reasons. Yeah. I would think if you did a census of people who are vegans now as opposed to vegetarians they've not necessarily done it from a moral point of view. I think they've probably done it as much from a health point of view. They've decided it for them being vegan is probably a healthy alternative than anything else. Do you want to sit down as well? Are you together? No. You're not together used to? No. Okay can we have the conversation together and you can come back later and we can discuss. I might be long. Are you together? Because you can sit. Oh no. I wanted to hear the discussion. This will be posted on my channel later on so but we just want to have a discussion together. With you there it's going to create a little bit of a distraction. I appreciate it. Thank you. I've been sitting there looking at that thinking well what would the argument speak and the alternative to the so-called animal cruelty is if we could all live on vegetables alone how would you sustain that? How would you feed the world? Is there enough land to grow enough crops to feed all those people? Okay well I'll answer that but the first few things you said was that vegans tend to go vegan for health reasons. I wouldn't say no. So only conscious vegans would understand this sign? I would think a lot of people who were perhaps vegans from day one, yeah they've done it out of conscience because they're against eating animals in general. They see that as being totally wrong but I also think it's partly a trend now. They've seen the rise in veganism for the last two or three years where maybe vegetarians who weren't quite sure but they tried to do that ethically right thing have all of a sudden gone well actually that step is veganism. So I just want to keep this on the topic here. Now I think we're going out into multiple different places which we can talk about crops and how many crops we'll be able to understand. But do you agree that if you eat animal products or use animal products then you support animal abuse? No. I've got to say no. For what reason? Because I think if you said yes to that argument then you'd stop eating meat because I don't think there's many people out there meat eaters included who would ever support animal abuse. And I know that you can say well if you eat meat then obviously animals have got to go to slaughterhouses and they're not going to live a full life and they're only bread for their commodity. But I still think a lot of meat eaters out there would like to think that these animals are being eaten because they're a sustainable product. That they're bread for their meat, they hopefully get reared in humane conditions, they get fed in fields. I know that's not always the case and I know that it's not an ideal world but most of us in order to I'm thinking the right word here but in order for us to eat meat you look at maybe this thing in a package and you don't see the whole animal. If you see a chicken breast you're not thinking of a chicken. If you see a pork chop you're not thinking of there was a pig there. So you understand supply and demand don't you? I absolutely do yes. So when you pay for animal products animals all the animals go to the slaughterhouse yeah? Yes absolutely. Would you consider being slaughtered in a slaughterhouse abuse? Of course not. So by virtue of supply and demand if you're not vegan you support animal abuse? No again I think this all the animal market now is so legislated that I think in to try and prove animal abuse in the sense that animals before they're slaughtered have a good life or perhaps brought up conditions that nobody would want to live in. I think that would be hard to prove nowadays on a whole scale level. Really? Well yeah I know you could show me. This is called Land of Hope and Glory. This is all across the UK around 2016 these are standard legal practices in the UK but we can talk about the issue. Of course there's going to be towel docking teeth clipping these are all stock standard practices you know we've got gas chambers that kill pigs in the UK our third of all pigs are killed in gas chambers this is a gas chamber here they have one in Manchester. But again don't you think that would you call this abuse? Absolutely but don't you think you'll take any extremes of what you can find and you put that up there and show people the worst case scenarios as opposed to this is what's happening all over the country all over the world. Well a third of all pigs in the UK are gas chambered that's a large number. But that in a lot of ways would that be considered humane or not? I know you put yourself in the animals position we could but let's talk about the higher standard of welfare you can imagine because you might not have seen standard legal practice in the UK you might not think factory farms even exist in the UK but they do there's about 800 mega farms here in the UK that just house so many animals and most of the pork here is factory farm 90% chickens living conditions like this free range really means not much. Most people have seen images of that so this here you know how you talked about commodifying animals do you think treating someone or exploiting them as a product is abuse? Again you'd be morally corrupt if you said it wasn't I mean of course you'd think no you did before you did earlier you said that it's not animal abuse to like if you're not vegan you don't support animal abuse. Yeah no I'd still maintain that I still maintain that I think you can be a meat eater but still be totally against animal abuse. In your mind maybe but in your actions? Well alright I mean the biggest issue you could take is never to eat meat again but is meat the only area that we exploit animals for products? Well no there's animals exploited right throughout they've been exploited right throughout time for everything that they contain from their bones and their skins to their meat so absolutely you know it's not the only product from animals. So let's bring it back to what it says on the sign you still mean to even though you agree supply and demand causes their slaughter not the higher welfare. I have to I'm a meat eater and I'm not about to give up meat tomorrow I do however I can I can see the the the idealistic sign of being a vegan I get that personally from a physical point of view I don't know if I could sustain myself on vegetables alone I mean I have you ever tried it? At home I do these we do these meat three days and that's fine but maybe it's habit I don't know but I can't see myself personally giving up eating meat and I can't and again I would still be against that sign saying I am against animal cruelty in an ideal world if I could look at every piece of meat I ever bought and have a label on it and said this animal was reared to its end of its life and passed away peacefully and you're eating that it I know I know but I'm sorry for laughing but that that is just a fairy tale and I know it's not can we talk about you called veganism idealistic and don't you think it's a cheap oh I'm not talking because you keep you giving me a lot of different things here and I don't want to forget any of these points you said you don't think it's idealistic if you think about it I don't think anybody that that just at vegetables alone would have a healthy lifestyle do I look unhealthy I'm sure I'm sure you're very healthy but you know we're led to believe from various reports that you will read that you will need to take supplements at some stage to make up for the proteins or the fats or the things that perhaps we've been used to throughout our life I have to cut you off there where do you think protein originally comes from I know this protein in vegetables I know so you're arguing from a false premise saying that we'd need to take a protein supplement but most protein comes from all protein originally comes from plants as the animals you eat where do they get their protein from I can see the argument and it's going around in a circle to the extent have you heard of the American the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics yes so they brought out a massive peer-reviewed statement saying a vegan diet a well-planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of life and it was supported by about 117 studies that big document spacked by the NHS so would you still maintain your position that you can't be healthy eating a plant based diet yes only because based on what evidence well based on the evidence that I've read based in the reports that I read in magazines is vegan a healthy diet yes it is a healthy diet but in most cases the reports I've read would say that at some stage you would need to take supplements so would you rather take supplements or contribute to animal abuse can this is a personal thing I still I still again I would say as a meatie you will then you will then classify all meaties as animal abusers anybody that would consume anything that's got a meat product in it becomes I would say that you support it by virtue of supply and demand financially because these slaughterhouses only exist because you want to compete animal products or use animal products so you've seen this you're watching this right now do you think that this is like false footage or sensationalized shows and the ones that show the worst aspects of rearing animals have you seen slaughterhouse footage before I have yeah now everybody's seen it so do you think if you witness the animals before they go to slaughter once you pay for a burger it will change your mind yeah I don't see how it can't I think if you're a human being with any compassion if you stood in a slaughterhouse you'd probably go away thinking yeah I don't know if I could eat you'd be more agreeable with this statement maybe yeah but again I'd still go down the line a lot of vegans a lot of vegans a lot of younger vegans now jumping on this bandwagon of obviously it's a great thing to be and it's what is your problem with being against animal abuse well I'm against animal abuse I'm still not against eating meat so if I was to say I'm against domestic violence but I still beat my wife would that be consistent that's contradictory so can you be against animal abuse while you're paying for them to go to the slaughterhouse you take the worst scenario there say I was a person who grew bread sheep and I looked after those sheep and I loved those sheep and they're coming to the end of their lives one of them dies naturally and I start eating at me am I going to feel guilty no I'm not is that where you get your meat from animals that have died naturally we're going round the circles again because as soon as you say look you're eating meat therefore you're eating stuff that's been yeah I know and neither would I and I probably wouldn't eat it if you were to eat your dog after your dog passed away I wouldn't have a moral problem with that either but when you pay for them to be in a slaughterhouse then it's kind of becomes a moral issue do you agree it's always a moral issue and I think anybody eat meat it knows that again I don't think you can just condemn people because they eat me as supporting and your statement there is a thing you're supporting animal cruelty and you agreed with me no in future I didn't say that's why I'm here you agreed that supply and demand causes animal abuse it does but it doesn't mean to say because I eat meat I support that maybe not in your mind but in your actions that's what I'm that's what I'm talking about I believe that 90% of people are against animal abuse but they support it yeah but again they're supporting it but so that's like me saying I'm against domestic violence but I beat my wife no what's different about it they're breeding animals and killing them and abusing them or anything else so it's paying you're paying the hit man yeah but I no no I still I still think maintain that argument doesn't what would happen if everyone went vegan what would happen to animal abuse yeah what would what would happen to the planet I know that they say all right this is big study animals cows in particular create a lot of CO2 create a lot of pollution to the absolute I know that I would be in favour of reducing meat consumption but again I wouldn't be in favour of banning it I wouldn't I would think I think animals could be bred in good conditions and allowed to live in good conditions be slaughtered if that's the case in humane conditions there'd be no need for cruelty that would be the ideal world can you tell me what your ideal conditions for humane slaughter would look like yeah again that's easy isn't it so you say I'll humane slaughter death without pain can you draw a picture in I'm not an expert on that sort of thing so I wouldn't be able to say to you what a painless death would be other than that if the animal died instantly you would assume that that was a painless death do you think that's an ethical thing to do I think yes yes I think it would you've got to understand how people view animals as well I mean the mentality towards animals is their products is that true well no but I think I'd see animals as a commodity yeah I've got to say I'm a meat eater I don't see them as this as individuals or worthy of rights but you do though because you're against their abuse no rights in the sense that they have a right to a life that's not going to be abusive not no torture you mean an animal to is an animal is what it is when people put characters and dogs and cats and everything else but then say oh well you know it's wrong for the Chinese to perhaps or in the Far East they eat animals I don't think if you're a meat eater you can make that distinction I think animals are what they are they're animals so you don't have a moral problem with killing and eating dogs for food if you have alternatives in the supermarket I can't I can't I as a meat eater I don't think you can you can have that compassion for one thing and not another I don't see how you can treat a dog a cow a horse any animal has been any different from any other what about humans do you think it would be okay to kill a human if they didn't feel pain well end of life stuff absolutely again I'd be in favor of euthanasia you mean euthanasia yeah what about murder nobody's in favor of murder but I know you can go back to this we're going back in a circle again well I'm trying to find out this animals but my argument is unfortunately I see animals as animals I don't see them as being human beings and I don't see them as being so you see them as lesser than so it justifies what we do to them for food it's just because over the centuries it's what we've done and it's something that I've known all my life and yeah I don't I don't see anything wrong with eating meat and that's why that's the only reason I'm sitting here again you can show me this picture as long as many times you can I know you can and I could show you pictures of human beings being treated in a similar situation do you pay for that to happen no and I wouldn't want it to happen okay but let's just say this we can all find extremes of all these situations can I give you a scenario right where in your life are you paying for human beings to be murdered I'd like to think I'm not but I'm sure there's some funding somewhere going to people being killed I'm sure there might be there might be there could be if we search around or something but this is pretty obvious that is obvious and it's always been there again I'd like to think that whatever government agencies are out there could put a stop to animal cruelty do you think they're going to stop an industry that is so heavily funded by the general public and there seems to be no real people in demand and until people start reducing their meat intake these things always going to happen because there's always going to be people that exploit things would you say to me if I was a domestic abuser that I should reduce my domestic violence or eliminate it no and again we're not here to talk about domestic abuse because your state is an analogy well it's still abuse it's a moral issue I'm trying to use your justifications in the different context to see if they are logically consistent yeah that's all I'm doing I I think anybody hopefully watching this would not see the the analogy that you're trying to make well let's just say I had a rape-free Monday would that sound ethical to you no okay what about rape-free every day and just be against rape if you're anti-rape don't rape well absolutely if you're anti-animal abuse can you still contribute to their slaughter again I am anti-analogues and I don't want to contribute to their slaughter but I do like eating meat and I'm sorry I can't change your mind I'm not here to change your mind I was interested in the statement and I was interested to see how this is I'm interested in your in the way you view things because I used to be the same way well there you are so you're a convert so yeah but I felt like I was a hypocrite born again meat eater I felt like I was a hypocrite yeah and I think there's a certain element of that in anybody that eats meat I think you do it with a slightly guilty conscience because you know that whatever you're eating had to be killed and nobody likes that how about this statement I love dogs but I love eating their flesh too well I'm sure if you went some parts in the world they'd probably say yes to that but no again I wouldn't I wouldn't condone that and what about rescuing a dog from a shelter looking after them giving them a humane life and then bulk gunning in the head and eating their body again worst case scenarios no it's a bit very close analogy it's not even very different like I know it I mean it's probably as a close analogy to what happens in like you're just showing this image now of sheep's going to be seeing a sheep get there but I could agree with you that if we all had to face that before we ate meat probably nobody would eat meat yeah I want to talk about you like so you see this as immoral yes I do yes so where are you sourcing your meat from I'm like everybody else I walk into a supermarket yeah and you you miss this whole part don't you yeah absolutely and we know it exists so what do they show you on the packaging well yes a bit like smoking thing isn't it people continue smoking even with the images on the packet and I think what images are on packages of meat grassy nothing no nothing there's nothing on that image you ever see a happy cow and again maybe that's a reflection on society as a whole though is that we turn a blind eye to this and nobody really wants to think how that got onto the plate or that got into the supermarket yeah I agree with that again I yeah and that's again that's why I say I am against animal cruelty but your actions don't reflect your actions don't reflect it but I am against it and I would think that if you ask 90% of meat eaters but more than that they would all say the same thing I'm tending to agree with you but they all contribute to it in their day to day lives three times a day more yeah and we do I haven't eaten any meat today in fairness and there's a chance a good chance I might not but again I'd be hypocritical to say that I'm not going to eat meat because I will do you think vegans just don't eat meat or they just are anti no I would think that at the moment it's 50-50 the rise in vegans is because one people have been life long vegans my daughter is now just moving from vegetarian to veganism all power to her vegans don't contribute to animal exploitation in dairy and eggs and clothing and again it's you'd have to look so carefully if you wanted to clash yourself yeah no I know the class themselves is complete vegans and I sort of not really well I don't well you do I mean you can't you can't have the leather products you can't have the food products as many clothes as possible maybe it is yeah I don't it's not one of those routes I've ever looked at but yeah I it's not for me and again it's the reason I'm sitting so you still disagree with the statement I still agree yeah I do I do after everything we talked about supply and demand show just Lord of House and I can agree with you 90% of what you say but that statement out there I would think anybody that sits here and says that by what they're doing they're supporting not supporting that they believe in animal cruelty they would say no they don't remember it's not no I know that eating meat is in some stages in some parts is causing this unfortunately it still won't stop me eating meat I appreciate your conversation let me give you this I just want to give you like a little card and really appreciate the chat I understand all your arguments and most of the people out there will but as I've said it won't stop me eating meat which is I think probably going to be do you think that's a problem with society yes absolutely absolutely things won't change unless society does I would be interested though that you know you said well we're not going to look around at whether or not we can go enough vegetables whatever but if you want me to answer that for you before you finish well alright so I was sitting there just thinking well alright in an ideal world we turn over all our meat production all our fields all the things that we've been used to for all the farms and we put them down to arable land and grown vegetables and grown crops would that sustain the population as a whole you know there's about 70 billion land animals on earth at one time and we feed them something so we're growing all those crops and giving them water land and so if we just take the plants directly instead of feeding that would be interesting that would be probably one of the arguments that if you could say to people look we can sustain quite comfortably the whole of our population by growing all the vegetables that you would ever need and all the nutrition and all the protein involved I think you could persuade a lot of people to change there's a not you though there's a film called cow spiracy but I would have to see the facts and figures I don't think well it just makes logical sense that a big cow takes a lot of water and land and resources and crops to feed them but as you've already said there's a lot of products that will come as byproducts of that animal that you don't see as in the skins and the bones it's a bad use of our resources that's not something that's ever told us if you said this particular cow in its lifetime will eat two acres of grass and it will cost X amount to keep going if you grow vegetables 60% because vegetables just need tending and whatever I think it's something like 16 times more plants to create the same amount so we feeding 16 times more plants for the again the animal cruelty thing is something that will get there but I don't think that alone will stop people from eating but that's sad to me that's really sad but you know you're sitting here it's a fact of life it's not it's a reality it's these people are wandering around here today will probably go and have a sandwich and a burger and for probably 9 out of 10 of them they will contain some meat product I want the society to be more empathic show empathy and put themselves in their position if they see someone kicking a dog in the street you'd stop me if I had a pig here about to kill the pig would you stop me but that's not what's wrong with society that's just a fact of society at this moment in time that doesn't make it moral or acceptable but it's a fact it's a fact you know you can't deny that I can't deny that so I feel like this is a fact so in order for people in order to change people's ideas of what they can and can't eat and what is good and what isn't good for them I think you've not just got to go down the road of their consciences and whether animals are being slaughtered humanely or not but you've also got to bring in maybe are you giving me advice on how to turn people vegan and you won't even go vegan thanks for giving me the advice would you take it okay let me ask you this what would I have to say to you right now you give me the advice you'd give someone to stop eating animals I'd say you can't do it on just that alone because we've seen these pictures for a long time this isn't you so what would I need to tell you you'd have to bring on the other argument as well from a health point of view okay a lot of people now are obviously aware of that leading cause of heart disease is cholesterol found in animal products that's got to be brought more to the floor and then we go Amazon deforestation, ocean dead zones, land use, water use so there's got to be a bigger picture that in itself we've talked about that that in itself as you see that is not enough for people to do it well we've just talked about land use, water use, Amazon deforestation, crops so we're all worried about the planet now we're all worried about species extinction all of these things factors as well species extinction has been going on for most of this century look at the animals that have already gone we've accelerated 10,000 a year, we've hunted them or just bred them to eat them to extinction, yeah there's an element of that but again I don't think that argument in itself is enough I'm asking you to change me and you there's nothing you're going to listen to you try how are you going buddy, do you want to have a conversation she's been waiting first, come and have a chat then how am I are you vegan, good to hear obviously