 Thank you. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. How are you? Good. Good. Good. Excellent. Excellent. All right. So welcome to the United States Institute of Peace. My name is Bill Taylor. I'm the Executive Vice President here at USIP. I'm very pleased to be able to introduce, open up this great discussion. Some of you, Lucie, you can have a seat here if you'd like. Sascha, you can do this too. Some of you may not have been here before. Everyone, let me ask. How many people, this is the first time in this building? Okay, okay. All right. Well, welcome to this building. We've been in this building only since 2011, but the United States Institute of Peace has been around since 1984. And what we do at the direction of the Congress and with the funding of the Congress is we focus on conflict. And so we have people in Afghanistan and we have people in Iraq and we have people in Pakistan and we have people in Burma. We have people in Indonesia. We have people in Nigeria. We do a lot of work around the world where there is conflict. And so the topic of conflict is what we do. And we're very pleased to be able to have this conversation about corruption. And before I forget it, there is, you can see, USIP anti-corruption here is one of the hashtags and people power four pieces, another hashtag so you can do this, but that gives you a sense that we're looking at the connection here today between corruption and conflict. It'll be an interesting conversation. Whenever the topic of corruption is on the table, I always have to point out that corruption is a problem around the world. Now we're going to hear people from, Lucia, from Guatemala. Idrissa from Burkina Faso. We're going to have Tars Evchenko join us by Skype who knows about Ukraine. Everybody in this room, we Americans, let me put it this way, Americans have our own problem with corruption. Every country has a problem with corruption. And when I was in Ukraine, I would often tell when this topic would come up and it would come up frequently, I would say you look at any newspaper, any local paper in the United States in any state of the Union and you will find some story about corruption. And so just to make this point, let me just show you. So just last week in the United States, there was a police, a Honolulu police officer who was arrested in a continuing probe of public corruption. Again, just last week, former Navy Comptroller sentenced for accepting illegal gratuities. Also just like a former employee of a commercial supply company gets a year in prison for heroin distribution. Baltimore City Police Detective pleads guilty to racketeering. Former congressional staffer pleads guilty to extensive fraud and money laundering. Former New York State Deputy Secretary of State sends to 30 months in prison for perjury. So this happens all over. It happens to us, it happens around the world. And the question for us today is how does this, how does this, what's the link to conflict? Again, that's what we do here. That's why you're in this building is to think about conflict and how we can mitigate it, how we can avoid it, how we can deter it, and how we can deal with it when it comes. I have mentioned some of the places that we're going to be talking about today, and I'm about to turn it over to Philippe Lerome Attain, who is going to moderate this discussion today. Philippe is the director of rule of law and justice and security here at the U.S. IP and knows about this topic and has done a lot of work in Brooklyn and Vassau and other parts of the world. So Philippe, let me invite you all, all the panelists to come up here and please welcome the panel headed by Philippe. Can you hear me well? Yes. So as Bill mentioned, I'm Philippe Lerome Attain, I'm the director for rule of law, justice and security here at U.S. IP. Thank you for joining us today. So as Bill mentioned, we will be focusing our conversation on the relationship between corruption and conflict work or peace. And more specifically, we have the pleasure of having guests who are active in a lot of movements, citizens-based movement, nonviolent action movements and campaigns, who are very concerned about the issue of corruption. And they're here to share their experience as to how they work, what they do on a daily basis. But more importantly, we want to use the opportunity to see how can international actors who are interested in this issue and local grass movements led by people who are sitting here with me, how can those actors cooperate together in order to curtail corruption? So the conversation today will be ultimately about this. And there are a lot of people here at U.S. IP who are working on studying and looking at this nexus and who are researching this question. And this is an event that is part of their thinking of their work. So we want to share with you very concrete examples from people who work in the field and try to see and hear from them. How can those synergies be harnessed between those sorts of actors? So I am joined today by distinguished people and leaders in those movements. So let me introduce them to you. To my left here is Idrissa Barry. Idrissa is a coordinating committee member of the Ballet Citoyenne or the Citizen Broom, the nonviolent movement from Burkina Faso. Next to Idrissa is Prudence, his interpreter. Idrissa is a French speaker, and so we will be relying on interpretation to communicate with Idrissa today. Then we're also joined today by Lucia Mendizabal. Lucia is a civil leader and a founder of Rinuncia Ya movement. And then at a later point we will also, as Bill mentioned, be joined by Taras Shevchenko from the Ukraine. Taras is the executive director for the Center for Democracy and Rule of Law, Yale Greenberg Ward Fellow and a co-chair of the Reanimation Package of Reforms Coalition. So here are the people who will be joining us today, as well as Shaskar Beyerli. Shaskar, we have the pleasure of hosting Shaskar here at USIP as one of our Jennings-Rendl's senior fellow for nonviolent action research and work here at USIP. And Shaskar will be joining us on the panel as well. I've asked and I've told each member here on the panel that I will be aggressively monitoring time, because there's a lot to say. There's a lot of excitement in the topic. And so we've asked each participant to limit their answers to five minutes. So we will be aggressively monitoring the clock here for the benefit of everyone. So let me start with one question. My first question would be to Idrissa. And not everyone is involved in the daily news in Burkina Faso and who the Balais citoyen is. So my first question to Idrissa would be the following. Idrissa, can you share some background information about the Balais citoyen and why the Balais citoyen was created in the first place? And what did it want to sweep away when it was first created? Hello, hello, hello. Hello, can you hear me? Okay. Good afternoon everyone. I am very happy to be here. First of all, to know that there are many people that are interested in this topic. In our movement, we say that our slogan is not force. In our movement, our slogan is our number is our strength. And I see that there are many people in the hall today. So what is the citizens broom? The citizens broom is a movement that was created in 2013. Our symbol is the balais. The balais are found everywhere in the house. We have named it Balais citoyen. The goal of the citoyen is very important to us. And the objective of citizens is very important. We added that to the name. Because our fight is something that we would like to keep nonviolent. So in 2013, the political situation in our country is something that called our attention. Because we had a president in his regime that had been around for 26 years. And that presidency was remarkable by bad governance and corruption. And sometimes there were political violence and also murders. And that president 26 years later was intending to modify the constitution in order to stay in power even more. So we, the youth of Burkina Faso, we decided to get organized to request that the constitution be respected. Because it is the main link between all the people of Burkina Faso. Because to us, the most important thing is the respect of that constitution, which was adopted by all the people. So in that context, we decided to fight to make sure that the constitution was respected. Because one of the principles of democracy is political alternance, is change. But our fight was not only a political one. We wanted that the public policies should be in favor of the citizens. And so that the meaning of citizens' broom, it was actually a broom that would be used to sweep away bad governance. And Idrissa, can you tell us what happened? You joined other groups in Burkina Faso, the Balais Citroën joined other groups to prevent compauré from seeking another mandate. What was the outcome of your actions? So obviously, citizens' broom, together with other movements and other political parties, we came together into one movement to prevent the former president from presenting himself again as a candidate. So we carried out a lot of campaigns and we did a lot of outreach throughout the community. So we also did rallies and concerts in the community and that was aiming at explaining to them the reason why we had to come together and fight to maintain that constitution and make sure it's respected. So that campaign was done with involved marches and other meetings. And so from 2013 to October 2014 that led to a social insurrection. And also the result was that finally the former president stepped down. And we were able to bring a new government for transition. And also a temporary congress. So to stay in our role as the watchmen in the society, we decided that we would not be part of that new government and we would not be part of the new congress either. Because we knew that the situation was not yet completely stable. So we found it important to make sure that we still have a civil society that is completely independent and available to watch over all the process to make sure that free elections are organized. And we were right in doing so because later on in September that year there was an attempt from former governments of security forces to carry out a coup. So we now had to rally people again to resist that attempt to carry out the coup. And so that was very successful action because people came out bare hands and they came out to stand against the security forces very non-violently. We recorded about a dozen deaths and also many people were injured. But at least we were able to save democracy in Bokina Faso. And that's what allowed us to have free and transparent elections. But before the election we came together with a coalition to request modification of the electoral code. And that allowed us to get a law against corruption. Also a law to allow us to have free access to documents and communication. And that was a tremendous progress because for years we've been fighting to obtain that freedom of access to communications and compauret government would not allow us in one last thing. And now we were also successful in getting a law in place that protects the people that advocate for human rights. Thank you Lisa for sharing the information about the Bada Situea where it comes from. Very inspiring experience from the Bada Situea story. I think that we do not hear enough so thank you for sharing that information. Let's move on then to Guatemala and I will ask Lucia, we're moving around. And so I would like to ask Lucia if she also herself can give us more background about her own personal story, the story of her organization. So Lucia could you tell us what prompted you as a citizen of Guatemala to take action in Guatemala and not only action but action that led to the renuncia ya and the justi ya ya non-violent campaigns that are linked to the CCG organization in Guatemala. And so tell us more about yourself what led you to establish those organizations. And support of CCG. Thank you very much for being here. I don't know if you can listen to me. Yeah, okay great. Okay so let me tell you first that Guatemala is a country where we had war for 30 years. And during those 30 years I was born. I was born in 1962. And my mother tells this story that I was born during a time where nobody could go out of the houses. So we grew up to learn to be quiet, to be silent and not to talk about things. And then on 2014 this great brave judge came forward and denounced that she was trying to be bribed into acquiring a new position again within the courts in Guatemala. And her name is Claudia Escobar and she's with us this afternoon. And please, yes, I think she deserves that. Because what she did, she stood up in front of one of our most dangerous, at least that's the way we saw it, governments ever. Former president Otto Perez Molina was very much involved with militaries during the war. So of course we were afraid of talking and she came forward and denounced the situation. And there was this civil society organization that called for protest. And nobody went. It was like 25 or 50 people. And there was this brave woman telling there is corruption and they're trying for me to favor Vice President Roxana Valdetti and nobody said anything about it. So when in 2015 CICIG came forward and said, okay, so we have proof that links the corruption and customs directly to the presidency. I just said, I have to do something about it. I mean, it doesn't matter if only four people come. I'm going to live with myself, okay, because I know I did something about it. I felt really guilty that this brave judge had put herself in danger and I haven't done anything. Can you tell us what CICIG is? Of course. CICIG is the organization that fights against impunity. But it's an organization that it has a commissioner from the UN and actually it's a commissioner from the UN that works in Guatemala. But it was asked by the people in Guatemala. What happens is every time an investigation gets too close to power to the president or congressman, they had to stop it because these people are protected by law and they cannot be investigated. So we saw that we need aid from outside to do this. So we asked for help. And in 2003, we started talking with the UN in order to help CICIG. And it came out first as CICIAC. And CICIAC, it was faced with a little bit of – actually, congress stopped CICIACs because it said that it went against the constitution. And so after a while, the Ombudsman of Human Rights and some other organization of civil society, they changed it to CICIAC and it finally passed the bill at congress. So now we have this organization that empowers the commissioner to propose laws that improve the quality of politics or that can stop or fight corruption and better impunity. Because we have a lot of impunity, people commit crimes and they don't ever see a day in court. And so it also helps investigating. And it can be worked together with the general prosecutor office. And whenever they present a case in front of the court, they are both pronounced or – I don't know the word right now, I'm too nervous. I'm sorry. And so they have these powers, but they're protected like if it was diplomatic. Immunity? Immunity, they have a diplomatic immunity. Although they're not a diplomatic agency, but instead it's ruled by general law. So it's a good thing because when a while ago President Jimmy Morales tried to take out high commissioner Ivan Velazquez from the country by naming him persona non grata. It didn't went through because he's not an ambassador or a diplomatic figure. And so I don't know if it's clear for you what's his case. Okay. So continuing with the story, what I did was after the 16th of April 2015, is I put up a page in Facebook with an event and it was open for everyone that wanted to go. And I said, okay, so if we're very successful, there are going to be 350 people. You know, it was like we were going to be huge because it was going to be like one of the big events in Guatemala. But then people started saying, yeah, I'm going to go, yeah, I'm going to go, yeah, I'm going to go. And I remember that when we were like a thousand people that said yes, that they were going to go, I started asking friends to join me, you know, in the group because I was doing this by myself. So one of them, it's Gabriel Ware, he told me, let's use the hashtag renunciaya. And so we changed the name of the event to renunciaya and that's how we became a movement of renunciaya. But none of us were politicians or were involved in politics at all. Like I was in real estate and he was working with elevators and another one was into graphics and working in a bank. So we didn't quite know what to do with this and we were very scared, but for some reason it started growing and growing and growing to the point that 10,000 people showed up on the 25th of April and it was amazing. We didn't expect that many people to get there and we were so scared because we didn't know what could happen if the government was going to have other groups, violent groups to go, you know, stirred some trouble with the people. But we had the help from an attorney that presented a constitutional right and this constitutional right, the act, I'm sorry, what it does is that it hails president accountable for whatever happens to the people and the protest because what amounts we have in our constitution gives us the right of protest as long as it is Pacific. So when we got together, this group of people that were organizing Renunciaia, we saw that it was important for the movement to keep on being Pacific because for as long as that we abide the law, there was nothing that they could do for us not to protest. So we issue these rules where nobody, no party could be there, like people from parties could be there but not representing their political party. We were not going to have microphones so nobody could take the microphone and use it to put whatever ideas they had in mind. And so we tell the people, use your own voice, we all have a voice. Just like George Claudia, we have a voice, let's use that voice. And so because we were not used to using our voice, people took, you know, signs saying whatever they want to say and there were people selling Vouselas, you know, like, and so everybody was buying Vouselas and making noise and tu-tu-tu and it was always noise and government had some, you know, these flying objects with cameras. And so every time this... A drone? You mean the drone? The drone? Yeah, drone, yeah, thank you. Every time a drone will go by a group of people, everybody will do this. You know, it's like the stealing sign in Guatemala. If you're stealing, you're doing this. So every time the drone came by, all the people did this. And so we prepared for a one-hour event. So we said, we're going to go there and then we're going to protest and then at 15 minutes to the end, we're going to sing the national anthem and then everybody's going to leave and please bring a bag so we can pick up all the trash and we're going to leave the plaza just as it is. And what happened is that people start showing up at 2 o'clock. We called for people to get there at 3 o'clock and they started showing at 2 o'clock and then 4 o'clock and 5 o'clock and then until 6 o'clock everybody started to leave. Everybody was so excited and so they wanted to do it the next weekend and of course we didn't know what to do. So we said, but we're not leaders. We're not the ones that are supposed to be calling for people to come to the plaza. So other people called to the plaza and do protest. So that happened and other groups started to call and of course their callings were smaller but not because they were smaller. It meant that they had less power. So we called again for the 16th of May and this time they calculated that it was like 100,000 people that came into the plaza. We were asking for the resignation of Vice President Roxana Valdetti and by that time she was, I don't remember if she was already gone or she was leaving. I think she was already gone but then we were asking for President Otto Perez Molina resignation. And then after that we decided that we were not going to continue because like in my case I didn't want to be right there in this time. I was not just as brave then and my daughter was about to have a baby so I was really scared for her and the baby. My mother is a journalist and so a lot of the people that I knew when I was growing up was dead during conflict. And so for me it was really scary. So I prefer to like not take a stand but go back a little bit and work is still keep on working but not as obvious to everyone. But the younger ones of the group they really wanted to keep on doing it. So they moved into the Justicia ya movement that is still working today. Now I realized that after a while that it was okay and that it didn't matter if something happened to me that I had to be brave. And so I continue my work and I came to work with Accion Ciudadana which is the civil society organization and NGO and Guatemala that has been working for 20 years as against corruption. It's the Guatemalan chapter for transparency international. Thank you Lucia for sharing this. I told people that I would aggressively be managing time but I did not know that we would be tapping into such rich stories and emotional stories. I want to leave the time Lucia for you to talk about your story. So thank you for sharing this with us. Moving on to Shaska and I'll ask Shaska because I think Tarras will be joining us in a few minutes. I think there are technical difficulties. Is he there? Ah, here he is. I was told we... Tarras you cannot see me but it's a pleasure to have you here with us. We'll jump right into it. So welcome to USIP. It's a real pleasure to see you from Ukraine. I was going to ask you Tarras very quickly. Thank you. Thank you for letting me to join you. Actually I see you have white shirt and black jacket. Ah, so you can see me. Oh, the camera is there, so okay. Well, because I have two screens and one screen is from the website of the UCP and I have live translation. So I wish I would sit together with you and it's of course better to feel inside what is going on. But I've listened to everything. And if I can jump into discussion and add a little bit about Ukrainian experience then the main things that I want to say is that Ukrainian civil society currently is really united to combat corruption, to advocate for reforms in Ukraine. And that happened three and a half years ago when we had in Ukraine revolution of dignity. So it was that brought a lot of people together on Maidan, on Main Square. And at that moment when most people, they were more protesting against corruption, against impunity, against Yanukovych, the former president. At the time, a smaller portion of people, actually civil society, they started thinking about positive agenda. And while anti-corruption is anti and more negative, there is still plenty of room for positive plans. And that's how Coalition Reanimation Package of Reforms, Reforms Package Coalition, appeared. We started to think about roadmap of reforms. And anti-corruption reform was within the top priorities from the very beginning. What was there? What was in the roadmap? Creation of new anti-corruption institutions. And that was done later with huge participation of our coalition and very strong anti-corruption NGOs that exist in Ukraine. Secondly, making information open. We already had access to public information law adopted 2011, also drafted by civil society. And at the same time we had to pass amendments to Model 50 Legislation X. They were well prepared, and that's another lesson, that at the moment when possibility opens, the window of opportunity opens, you should be prepared. Civil society worked well in advance to prepare legislative amendments. And they were voted two months after the end of the revolution. Another thing that was on the roadmap of reform of civil society was successfully executed later. That's about very detailed system of electronic declarations for public officials. Why we are successful in Ukraine, even though Ukraine is still known to be quite corrupt country, but I think a lot is changing and it's not immediate results that are happening. We could have civil society or my coalition because we had possibility to use this energy of public products and to move this energy into institution, into coalition that had rules, that had trust, that had expertise. And it's interesting to say, but civil society, NGOs, they are in many cases stronger as institution in comparison with political parties and in comparison with governmental institutions, that good and bad. Good we have such a strong civil society, but bad we had weak institutions in public sector and weak political parties. And by the way, as speaking about corruption, it's also big priority for our coalition to promote public sector reform because the opposite side of corruption is good governments. And enhancing good governments in many cases helps to tackle corruption even better than punishment, than establishing courts, than establishing some investigative structure. Though everything is important, both sides are important. Few words to add to finish with this part. Civil society is demonstrating in Ukraine joint efforts for three and a half years, very difficult years when we have war on the East. Nearly every day, now a little bit better, but every week, soldiers die on the East part of Ukraine. We demonstrate solidarity and we also understand that that's our responsibility. We cannot expect that foreign countries would come to reform our state. We are not waiting for donors to make reforms. It's important to have joint pressure of civil society in international institutions. We sometimes call it sandwich effect, like pushing from top and bottom. But we are really thankful for the support from foreign institutions. But we understand the job of Ukrainian people to reform their own country. Thank you for sharing with us your vision and also your thinking about this nexus between local organizations and how outsiders can help. Let me then turn to Shaska. And so we've heard from practitioners, people who are involved every day with those kinds of actions and those types of movements. And Shaska, then I think that creates a space for you to share with us some of the insights that I think you've gathered through your research and from your global viewpoint. And so you're the co-author of a new World Bank Nordic Trust Fund report that is entitled, Citizens as Drivers of Change and How Citizens Practice Human Rights to Engage with the State and Promote Transparency and Accountability. Can you give us an overview of how nonviolent action can impact corruption and improve accountability of justice on the basis of your thinking and research? Thank you. Philippe, can everyone hear me? Yes. I'd first like to acknowledge someone who has been working with me to make this event possible. And it would not be possible without his efforts. That's Nicholas Zaremba from USIP. So thank you, Nick, for everything that you have done to make this happen. And he's a really important part of the nonviolent action program here at the United States Institute of Peace. And I'd also like to acknowledge all the efforts, the nonviolent movements, the campaigns, the civic initiatives around the world. I've researched many of them, so what I can share with you is actually what I've learned from all of them. And so whatever I may say is really a reflection of their ingenuity and what they've done and accomplished. No, the standard definition of corruption. Abuse of power for gain. Usually it's called for public gain. Game. Have all of you considered what a systemic definition of corruption might be? Systemic definition. Okay, so if we take that basic definition then and we think about it in a systemic way, that's going to help us to see the role that nonviolent action plays and the synergies between international efforts and homegrown grassroots efforts. So a systemic way to think about corruption is that it actually, corruption can function as a system of abuse of power. And it can be abuse of power for personal gain, but also for political gain, for economic gain. So there are many different kinds of benefits to corruption. And it involves all kinds of complicated relationships in which people are in these relationships. And most of those relationships we'll never know about, which is one of the reasons why it's so hard to tackle. And of course, given that there are all these benefits to corruption, those who are gaining from corruption have vested interests to perpetuate the systems of corruption they're in. So that means, of course, that when we try to introduce reforms, when we try to develop policies, when we try to implement the policies, there will be all those vested interests fighting back, warning, block order to block all of those things, because it will threaten all their gains. So when we think about that, we have many forms of power in society. There can be the power that rests within a state, the authority of the state of institutions and officials. But then you've been hearing about this afternoon another form of power which comes from citizens when they organize together in a peaceful, nonviolent way. And then there's the other power which can come from international actors. And sometimes that can be good power. And that too can be a source of pressure for change within a given society. So if we think about nonviolent action, then you may be thinking, well, what's nonviolent action? We all may think about it, so I'll just share with you a couple of thoughts about what is nonviolent action and then how it relates to power. So it's a bottom-up method, as you've heard. It's to counter oppression, injustice, inequality, marginalization. And through nonviolent tactics like noncooperation, civil disobedience, monitoring of budgets and monitoring of decision makers, monitoring for things like corruption, it can create different forms of pressure. It can be economic, political, social, psychological pressure. And to push for change. People are at the heart of nonviolent action, so people are the drivers of this power. They can wield this power. And they can unify around shared grievances and goals, as you've heard about from our three civic leaders. And they voluntarily participate. They're not doing this because somebody is paying them as they might in a job or they're not doing this because they're being forced to or being threatened. They're doing it because they want to, even if they may have fear and even they may overcome their fear, as we heard from Lucia Mendizaba. And you can see very interestingly that this nonviolent action is manifested in different ways. So you heard about the movements, like the Revolution of Dignity from Ukraine or the Ballet Citoyen in Burkina Faso or the campaigns and the movements in Guatemala. It can also be manifested in different types of local civic initiatives. And you're going to hear about that in a few minutes. So I'll say that. So what can nonviolent action do? And is this similar to what international actors can do sometimes? That's where the synergies can occur. So nonviolent action can sometimes disrupt systems of corruption. It can change the incentives of decision makers to engage in corruption or to block efforts to thwart corruption. It can support and protect institutions and integrity champions. So for example, in Guatemala now the support of citizens in the Hustizia now campaign to protect CISIG and to protect the commissioner, Ivan Velasquez, which you heard about from Lucia. It can also begin this process of shifting preferences and norms in society. So you heard, for example, from Lucia and from Idrissa, how citizens went from not doing anything, perhaps being very fearful or perhaps being not very hopeful that they could do something to actually feeling that they had to do something, feeling that even if they were scared they were still going to try, feeling that they were becoming less tolerant of corruption in their societies. So in a way it can help develop over time this civic awakening in societies and a societal intolerance to corruption. So how am I doing with time? Do I have one minute left? One minute, yes. One minute. Okay. So when you have these power asymmetries in a given society and these power asymmetries are leading to things like corruption, you can see that then you can have state capture, you can have clientelism and you can have exclusion of different parts of society, for example, citizens who are poor and marginalized, and these can be drivers of violent conflict. So when you international community wielding pressure and when you have bottom-up pressure, this is where you can have two very different forms of extra institutional pressure shifting the balance of power within a society to push for change, to thwart those who are actually themselves trying to thwart efforts to reform their systems of governance and systems of impunity. Thank you, Jessica. I hope that was clear. Absolutely. Thank you very much. That's very much appreciated. And that's a very good segue for us to move into a second set of questions before we move to the question and answers from the audience. And I'd like to take a few questions to focus more narrowly and specifically on this relationship between the local movements and international actors. How can they really cooperate and in order to effect positive changes? Yeah. So one of the... not attempts, but one story about that cooperation is the story between USIP and the better citoyen. So I have the privilege of overseeing a program and a project within this program has decided to partner with the better citoyen and with Idris's colleagues in Burkina Faso to work on a project. And in order to give you more background about this specific program we thought it might be interesting to show you a trailer for a documentary movie that will be screened here on Wednesday. So independent filmmakers decided to come to Burkina Faso and film this work that is being shepherd by the better citoyen in a small town called Sabah. And so for all of you who are interested in attending or watching the documentary it will be screened here at USIP on October 25th in cooperation with the American Film Institute documentary film festival here at USIP. So please go and you can reserve your tickets but we thought that we could take a few minutes just to show you the trailer for the movie to give you more context and information about the type of work that Idrisa is doing in Sabah in Burkina Faso. You can see that Idrisa is playing many roles that of a documentary movie star as well on top of everything else. So Idrisa, I wanted to ask you please be honest and pretend that I'm not there. I know that might be difficult, but why for an organization like Belestituane why is Belestituane cooperating with USIP in a program that seeks to bring community members as well as security services together in order to rebuild their security? That's my first question to you. Why? And the second one is how does this kind of effort or cooperation help you to prevent violent conflict in a place like Burkina Faso? And pretend I'm not here. Okay, thank you Philippe. Thank you Philippe. So I will be honest because the name of our country is the country of honest people. So in 2015 USIP contacted us that was right after the social insurrection. It was to see how we could work together to prevent violent conflict or to deal with them when they happen. So we were able to successfully make sure that the people would not have to be violent during any demonstrations. But that was at a national level. So now we had to find out how to make sure that the people were not violent during demonstrations. So now we had to find out how to make sure that the relationship between the security forces and the people at the local level would remain peaceful. Because that was a huge challenge. Because in the context of Burkina since the beginning of the year 2000 there was a lot of confrontation, there was a lot of violence because the context in Burkina so since the year 2000 was very tense between the security forces and the people. There was a lot of tension going on. And there are many people who were killed by police officers in their commissioner's office. The military group descends into the neighborhood and kills the citizens because there is a fight between the military and the neighborhood. The context is also that the citizens assume that the security forces are corrupt. And they believe that they are usually accomplices of thieves in the community. So that's why in 2015 there was an outspread of local auto-defense groups. So the people that were no longer trusting the security forces decided to create their own self-defense groups to protect themselves. And that was actually done in violation of human rights and also the law in place. And that was actually done in violation of human rights and also the law in place. So for us it was important to have a partner like USIP to see how we could work together and come up with ways to rebuild that trust between the security forces and the people. And so that's what we tried to do in Saba. So we gathered all the people from all levels of the society with the security forces and so we were able to bring them together so that there could be a dialogue between them. So it was an opportunity to get to diagnose the issues and also brainstorm on possible solutions. So even just bringing people together was a challenge. So Sandrine, who is from my country, she's here right now, she can testify. So she conducted the mission of dialogue between the security forces and the community and there was a challenge because the security forces did not want to allow self-defense, auto-defense groups and auto-defense groups also did not want to have anything to do with the security forces either. So it took a lot of negotiation skills in order to be able to bring both parties together on a dialogue table. I'm going to stop you here, Idrisa, because I'm conscious of time, but this cooperation, and I don't want to sell, but has led to a number of concrete outcomes in Saba that has strengthened relationships between service increased levels of trust and so forth. So thank you for talking about your experience with us here at USIP in working on Saba. I want to move quickly and I want to make sure that people have time to ask questions so I will ask people to keep answers rather short for the next. I'll move on very quickly to Lucia. Lucia, again on the same team, what are the synergies between CC's activities and grassroots efforts in Guatemala? Can you give us very shortly an explanation of how both Saba... It's not something you ask easily to a Latin person. I'll try to keep it short. Thank you. Sure. Well, although we have power, I mean citizens, when we reunite and we protest, we have some power, but then there are certain legal procedures that need to be done, or in the case of CC, they bring out proof that whatever everybody knows, like there is corruption in building highways, because we see the highways that get broken really easily and they don't last at all, and then CC comes and brings all these proof and then they bring people to court. That gives us more strength to go out and protest and pressure the government into doing what it's right. You know, it's just so they don't do all this work and then when they bring the proof and they present people to the courts, then what happens is that, or it used to happen, that corrupt judges will just let them go. You see, they will say, oh, this is wrongly presented and so we're going to have to let them go. But because of people protesting, cases are more likely to be known at the courts. Also, we work with, like in 2015, if CC had presented all this proof and it got into the Congress, because they're protected by law and the Congress has to say, okay, we're going to forfeit the protection that they have and then nothing happened. But because citizenship was outside asking congressmen to lift the protection, then they had to do it. And this, actually with President Otto Perez Molina what happened was they had brought these people from the rural area of Guatemala and there were these ladies with children and sticks in front of congress where the day that they had to know the procedure. And so citizenship, we moved over there, we sent people with white flowers and juices and we went to speak with the ladies and said, okay, you're working against yourself. You don't know what, they usually don't know what they're doing there. They just told, they have to be there and that they're going to be paid 100 quetzales, which is like a little over $10. And then they had to avoid people to go into congress. And so we sat with them and exchanged flowers for sticks and explained to them that if they didn't allow congressmen to go in, they wouldn't know the procedure against Otto Perez Molina, who was stealing and from the government and therefore they didn't have a health, like hospitals or they didn't have education through schools and this and that. So what happened is that people starting to come into our side. So the synergies, they do the legal steps and then we do the... It's not illegal, but the final push for the fight against corruption, because as Shasko was saying, in Guatemala is the system, the whole system is corrupt. And she was talking about systemic corruption, you know? And so we have corruption in the courts and in congress and in the presidency and in the lower ranks of bureaucracy because it's not always the higher ranks that are corrupt. So we need to fight to change the systems. We need to change the law and it's not easy for us to press if we don't have organized civil society helping us and if we don't have international aids providing help, not just economical help but also like when president pronounced Ivan Velazquez and persona non grata, a lot of ambassadors went to talk to president Jimi Morales. So we... There was this combination of international actors as well as domestic pressure. Yeah. Thank you so much, Lucia. That allows me to ask if Taras is still with us to ask Taras, essentially the same question from the perspective of Ukraine and your experience in Ukraine, Taras. What is the relationship between corruption and violent conflict in Ukraine and are the efforts of the international actors in domestic civil society mutually reinforcing in a positive way? We always talk if a violent conflict that is still going on in Ukraine is an excuse not to deal with corruption or is it helping or is vice-weather is not helping and we usually come to conclusion that we cannot say that any violent conflict at least in situation when it's going on only in one smaller part, not in the whole country, I think. For that it would be probably different. But in case of Ukraine, the conflict that is going on is actually more motivating people to follow the government, to monitor what government is doing, to engage in anti-corruption initiatives. So we see that rather as a stimulus. We have a big difference between situation now after Revolution of Dignity and situation after the Orange Revolution, the previous peaceful gathering that led to the change of the government that was 2004. And that time after the Orange Revolution people were supported one of the candidates to become a president, Yushchenko. And after he won, people were relaxed and thinking that, okay, we've done our job. We have great president. He will do everything. He will deal with corruption. He will reform the country. And we can just go home and do our usual job. It was because of violence, because the violent conflict started, because of war, it was absolutely different situation 2014. At that time, first, Maidan Revolution people on the street were not really supporting any of candidates. They were not thinking about who will become next leader of Ukraine. The title Revolution of Dignity was because Revolution was mostly about values. And anti-corruption issue was one of the very, very important. Not least important was the issue of European choice contrary to Russian choice and the way to integrate with Russia. But anti-corruption and impunity that no one was punished, that was something that most people were thinking about. So immediately after Maidan, a lot of different civic initiatives started to grow. Some were dealing directly with the front line and supporting people on the front line. Others were engaging citizens in reform process, trying to do what citizens can do. Some actually were joining government. Some were writing legislation. Some were doing international work. And combatting corruption was one of the primary topic that was always discussed and always debated by us. That's the role of international community. Again, it's very important that... So we might have... Taras, I think you're freezing, we will. Maybe... Hold on and maybe use this opportunity. We can come back and ask more questions to Taras and the question and answers. One last question from my side and then I really want to give the floor to the audience. Sheska, very quickly, from your research again, what are some of the key takeaways for international actors who want to help or cooperate, at the very least, with grassroots movements? Okay. Thank you. I'm going to be quick. I will not even take seven minutes because I'd like to make sure we have time for interaction. There are a few takeaways that I think probably already all of you are thinking, that power is essential. Power analysis is essential when looking at situations of endemic corruption and violence in societies. And shifting power asymmetries are essential. That when we are trying to think of how to bring forth reforms, how to bring forth changes in policy, that it's not enough to have political will, perhaps. That's important, but it's not enough because you'll have all those people benefiting from corruption trying to thwart it. It's not enough to have integrity champions because they will be blocked. So we need to think about bringing other sources of power into the equation. So that can be international actors. It can be grassroots as two examples. And when they are working in a complementary way, as you heard from Lucia, from Idrissa, from Taras, then you can have possibilities of shifting the power equation. And second takeaway is that we, for example, if we put our hats on and pretend we're all international actors or we are reformers within governments, we are very good at knowing what needs to be done. There's no dearth of good ideas about what reforms are necessary, what institutions need to be strengthened, what measures need to be taken. But as discussed in this new report, World Bank Nordic Trust Fund report that Philippe mentioned, the other side of that is how do you shift the incentives of those within the state or within institutions to make these changes, to carry them through? How do you start impacting their preferences? How do you start shifting beliefs either within the state or within the society? So if we start trying to think about this as a track together with reforms, maybe we'll come up with some different approaches that are then taking into account the synergies between grassroots and international actors. So something then specific, a lot of international actors are already engaging with civil society in countries. That is happening, it's nothing new. What's more challenging and what we're exploring here at USIP and the Nonviolent Action Program is how to better engage with grassroots initiatives. So, for example, engaging when Lucia was with, when the Renuncia Now movement was underway. How to engage, how can the international community engage with that? Or how could the international community have engaged with Ballet-Sétonnard in 2014 in addition to now in the aftermath to rebuild state, the state. And how, when we're thinking about policies and reforms and measures, how can we make these reforms, all of these efforts, user-friendly for citizens that citizens can be a part of making sure that they happen. So I'll give you an example and then I will stop. So, for example, Idrisa mentioned that civil society played a key role in developing a freedom of information or right to information law in Burkina Faso. That's really important because their input was important in crafting something that could be used beyond very elite actors and decision-makers. Just like in India, a 10-year right to information movement led, finally, to an extremely user-friendly law in India which any citizen can use in the simplest way. So again, I'll stop there and hopefully I stayed within five minutes and we have 35 minutes for interaction. That's right. Thank you. Well, thank you, Shaskir. So I know that there are plenty of questions, so let's move very quickly and to give you the opportunity to ask questions, I see many hands here. I assume there will there be a microphone circulating? Okay, so there's a microphone. So we can start maybe from here since you were the first one to raise your hand. So the gentleman here up front, I will ask from each question or person there. State your name, your organization, and a brief question. Thank you. Thank you. Larry Luxner, news editor of the Washington Diplomat. And this question is for Lucia Mendi-Saval. During the time your movement was gaining strength, could you please explain what role, if any, the State Department or the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala played in both fighting corruption and in convincing President Otto Perez Molina to step down and ultimately face justice? Yeah, okay. Thank you. Of course, I believe that State Department through Ambassador Todd Robinson had a big role. Like, for instance, there was this one public speech that President Otto Perez Molina gave and Ambassador Todd Robinson was standing right next to him. And he even spoke from the presidential podium. So in Guatemala, we said, oh, so now we have a new president, you know, and we joke about that because we have a very playful culture in Guatemala. But I believe that at some point, like, we felt the American government was behind and backing up President Otto Perez Molina. But then something happened and suddenly probably the government realized that people, we didn't want anything to do with President Otto Perez Molina either. And so I have no proof of this, but I believe that they had a big role in convincing him to resign as well. You know, like, for one, it was the citizens protesting and then CICIG also applying pressure by, and it was CICIG and the general prosecutor's officer. You have to understand that this is, like, CICIG cannot work by itself. It has to go through the general prosecutor's office. And then there was the pressure from the American Embassy and also not just the American Embassy, like the Ambassador Todd Robinson was really big on the news and everything, but I understand that also other embassies were in there as well, you know, talking to them and telling them that it was better for the country if they resigned. Thank you. Another question. Yes, just behind the lady. Hi, I'm El Separali from Global Integrity and my question is to all the panelists and it's about momentum. How do you keep momentum in social movements? Usually they lead to legal change and usually what happens is you have a great law that it's not actually implemented in practice or you have this big gap or you have a change, for example, in Yanomar that led to Maki's album now you might risk slipping through. So how do you keep this momentum going with civil society? What are the incentives for citizens? How do you keep those incentives going? Thank you. Thank you. Should we start with Idrissa? Should we start with Idrissa? Then I suggest we move on to Taas and then Lucia. How do you keep that going? The momentum, the language. We knew that after the election and then after the elections we knew that after the insurrection and after the elections the momentum was going to slow down. That's normal. We know it's normal. What we citizens are trying to do is to create citizen clubs in the neighborhoods, in the services. What we do at Citizens' Room is that we try to create local clubs to continue the movement locally. So those clubs will locally meet to discuss issues that concerns them. And so if they have any pressure, movement that they need, they will be at a local level, they will be able to meet together for that. And those clubs have a lot of activities. They have projections. They have debates with citizens in the neighborhoods. And that actually helps spread the message and also get feedback from the people to know what they think. So for us it's not about thinking for the people but it's to allow the people to express their thoughts and what they want to do or what they want to see done. So we try our best at a local level to make sure that people have citizenship, awareness. So at a local level, we try to build dialogue between the members of the community, the citizens and the public forces at a local level. So they even help, they contribute to the policies, public policies and how they are implemented. They also contribute in the implementation process. So and we use the media a lot, especially social media, to get in touch and stay connected with the youth. That's how we spread the message. Thank you, Idrisa. Can we move on? And Tost, would you like to also share with us how you work on keeping momentum in Ukraine? You know, the main thing that we try to do is to be prepared. Momentum is not something that you can influence and there are many factors that influence and that momentum would happen or be continued. But the major thing that I learned from my experience before revolution and during these years that how to use the momentum and my answer is to prepare it in a strategic way. We, my organization, Center for Democracy and Rule of Law, NGO that established with France in 2005, one year before my done, we started drafting three-year strategy, risk mapping and a lot of other tools that we learned from foreign partners. And nearly everything that started to happen on my done and after were already well analyzed and different strategies were worked out because when momentum is coming, you do not have time to think about that. You need to act. And if you have several scenarios, for example, before ahead of time and you spoken with many people about these scenarios, then you can use momentum much better. And if you are successful in using momentum if you speak about reforms, then you have, you get more credibility and more chances that momentum will stay for longer. That's our experience. Thank you, Taras. And Lucia, very briefly from your side. Well, I agree with them. I don't think momentum is something that you can keep on going and going and going. Instead, you have to expect from the power of all the people going out to decrease with time and you have to be prepared instead changing into creating policy and working with government because if you try to keep that, then you may risk going into anarchy, you know? So you don't want that. You want to improve your country. Other questions? I've seen many hands. Can I just ask something? Lucia mentioned something very interesting to me when we were chatting earlier about the dialogues that you're having in the squares in communities. And it actually reminded me a little bit of what Idrisa was talking about. I don't know if she could take one minute to just mention this. Sure. Nowadays, we're gathering in the squares of all the cities in Guatemala and we're trying to come up with a map of where we have to be heading for the next years in order to gain control, a little bit of control of what goes on with government. And so we can agree on which is the path that we need to be following so that we usually get together at the squares at three o'clock on Saturdays and we have all discussions with citizens because what happens is that citizens they don't feel represented by any organized civil society or any other organization for that matter. So whenever we ask who could represent you, people say, no, nobody represent me. So we ask them to come over to the squares and start talking and getting together and getting into realizing what are the moves that we all agreed that need to be done. Okay. Other questions. I saw someone at the very back there so maybe we can go in the back of the room and move our way up. Hi, Cristina with the Center for International Policy. My question is for Idrisa. I'm curious, what is the relationship now between the security forces and civil society? And was it mainly mistrust of senior officers in the security forces or rank and file as well? And to follow up, what kind of transparency initiatives would help civil society address corruption in the security sector? Okay. Thank you. So what is the relationship that we currently have between the security forces and the community? I can say that the situation has positively progressed. So for example, three weeks ago, the people arrested some delinquent. And so after some time, they contacted the police to transfer those people to the police. So previously, that would not happen that when they arrest someone for any kind of wrongdoing, they would not have automatically the reflex to transfer that person to the police. And so now they feel that they trust the police enough to hand them over to the police. So previously, what would happen in the past is that when they would arrest people that have allegedly done something wrong, they would just send them to the auto defense people and they would torture them and they would not think about sending them to the police. Today, thanks to the actions that we have done with Ligip in the district of San Aba, in the villages, the people have been sensitized so that there is this collaboration between them and the security forces. So thanks to the actions that we have been doing with the USIP in San Aba and the communities, now they all think about a collaboration with the security forces, which is not something that was happening before. So we used to have forums and we would do stand-up forums in the neighborhoods with the community. And so we have different cells of social awareness in different localities to make sure that they continue the actions locally. So in those local groups, we're glad that we also have the involvement of members of auto defense groups. They're also part of it. So we should not lie to ourselves. It's not perfect at this point, but we would say the relationship has improved. Exactly. So on the side of the security forces as well, we've seen an improvement because now they're doing their job more professionally and they're also staying alert as soon as the community needs them. They're able to react in a timely manner as well. So the joint action between the citizens, Broom and the USIP has helped in making sure that the people are now having a better understanding of the situation. They're watching what the security forces are doing and vice versa, so they're all helping each other. I'll see this. Are there questions moving closer to the front? Thank you. Luke Lorenz, the Alliance for Practical Policy Solutions. I was struck by the fact that none of our speakers seemed to have a major challenge with political apathy and I think it's a great opportunity for us to be able to work together to make sure that all of our speakers seemed to have a major challenge with political apathy, in fact, quite the opposite. So I'm curious, what are the challenges of having a rapidly growing grassroots movement? How do you ensure that the people are properly informed that the movement doesn't splinter? How do you maintain control over a large segment of the population that becomes politically active perhaps without having much background? Sure. My name is Vijay Anand. I'm with Fifth Billard in India. I was curious to know when Lucia mentioned 26,000 people gathered in his choir. The problem has been there for a long time, but what triggered the congregation or the coalition to form and come into one place on one day? Were there any special tactics that you guys supplied? And like he said, like he asked, what is it that you have in mind to keep them all together? Is there a follow-up mechanism where we can, that strength can be sustained? Okay, who would like to take the first question? Talas, would you like to answer maybe the question about political apathy and how do you maintain cohesion? And then Lucia, I think the second question would say. Absolutely. So one thing to mention is that to ensure quality of our legislative initiatives and what we're doing, because when you have a lot of people, there might be issues of what the quality of what this general gathering is suggesting. We put into the top position for administrative system, the board, and making decisions about strategy. We put think tanks and NGOs that were well established long before in Ukraine on the top position in the coalition. Meaning that that would be a guarantee of quality of our work and our initiatives. And as to citizens' engagement, we have maybe, I don't know if it's unique or not, but the reality is that people don't want to take part in political parties, and in that way they are not political. But at the same time, they're really willing to participate in citizens' initiatives. And I see it in quite a number of countries as a trend that political parties is ideological, political parties, they are getting less and less popularity and willingness of people to participate. And at the same time, citizens' movement, they're growing. And that's where people feel that as citizens, they need to have more power, not to have political power and use it for your own growth or becoming an official. Thank you, Taos. Lucia, do you want to answer the second question? Yeah, sure. Well, you see, it's not that we have congregational power and we can go out and say, we're going to gather at the plaza or at the square this weekend, and then we are sure that 25,000 people are going to show up. Actually, I think it's a little bit more organic where something happens in the political arena and then you have to... Col, when I was telling the story, perhaps I didn't mention it enough, I always compare what happened with renuncia, a little bit like in the cartoons where you're running and hiding and you come into a dark room and you light a match and the room is filled with dynamite. Well, that's pretty much what happened with renuncia. I was really upset and I made a calling and people responded because they were ready and I was not alone. We may have been scared to talk or do something about it, but when somebody stood up and said, I'm going to do this. If you want to join me, here's an invitation. Everybody responded. Just like that, I believe, with huge amounts of people respond. Usually, the people that keeps on working on the political area are few and what we do is, in Guatemala specifically, we communicate with the community through our pages and Facebook and Twitter. We are very active through the social media and there are a lot of people that follow us and sometimes when things happen, like in recent August, when President and declare Ivan Velazquez a persona non grata, we said, okay, I don't know of you, but I'm going to the square again and people responded and then we started, Justicia Ya made up a calling for what we call a paro, which is nobody works that day and so everybody goes to the plaza and of course the people, the 1% that holds the majority of the wealth in Guatemala, they said they were not going to join the paro but then again, over 200,000 people went to the square and so it was not a paro but it was a pretty good display of power, of people power. Okay, so Idris wants to add... About the question of the gentleman, how to maintain this view of the citizen that is always active? In fact, what makes the particularity of the citizen for example is the presence of artists, musicians. So something specific about the citizens' room is that we have artists that are part of the movement. So we have famous artists who are well known for actively denouncing most of the ills in Bokina Faso. So those famous artists, they have a lot of followers and so when they send a message on social media, for example, they have hundreds of thousands of young people following them and the message actually is sent out very effectively through those channels. And so we use those artists to organize free concerts and we are able to gather a lot of people that way and be able to send a message across. Another question. Hi, my name is Urtavo Arisvetia. I'm with the Carnegie Endowment. My question is for Shaska about power. So I'm wondering if you could speak more to how you could gain power as a citizen movement when the system is either closed, like Russia or China or any autocracy, or it's very well insulated from popular movements like the United States at the federal level? Every... Societies may be closed. There can be very limited civic space in a society. But that does not mean that citizens cannot organize and mobilize. It makes it more difficult. But if one looks at the trajectory of nonviolent campaigns and movements around the world in the present and even say over the past 100 years, it's in fact very prevalent in places where civic space is very restricted. And power holders are trying to limit citizens from expressing their human rights of freedom of assembly, freedom of expression. And so there is some excellent research on this that also looks at the success rate of violent campaigns versus nonviolent campaigns that was led by Dr. Maria Steffen, the director of our nonviolent action program and Dr. Erica Chenoweth at the University of Denver. And they didn't... And Maria may want to comment on the lack of relationship between closed civic space and nonviolent campaigns and their success rate. But I would just add that when we think about nonviolent action, the types of things citizens can do are varied. And we often think of demonstrations and street actions because they are common, but there are many other forms of nonviolent tactics that citizens can take together that may be lower risk. And so once we think beyond risky types of nonviolent actions, that can open up a whole range of activities. So to give an example, there was a campaign against state capture, corruption, and impunity in Turkey in 1997 that lasted six weeks in which citizens turned off their lights for one minute every night at 9 o'clock. And it was called the One Minute of Darkness for Constant Light Campaign. So over the course of the six weeks, it was estimated that 20 million people participated. So that was a low risk mass action tactic. Other examples are things like... This may sound unusual, but it is actually a very effective nonviolent tactic. It's like in Uganda, there was also an initiative to target police corruption. And part of this initiative involved citizens calling into a local radio program in which there was cooperation with the police and a police officer was present during the radio program. And so citizens would call in and complain about corruption and things that happened to them, extortion by the police and things. That was a very low risk action because people could do that without fear. They were not physically present in front of the police officer. They would have been scared to do that. But through radio, they had some sense of anonymity, and yet it was a very powerful tactic because in fact this created a lot of social pressure on the police, the local police, through the radio program. So these are very small examples, but just to suggest that there are many ways in which people can collectively voice their concerns and their demands and harness the power that they have the potential to wield when they come together. I don't know if you'd like to add to that. If I might just mention one more thing, because the person asked about Russia and China, I cannot say that there's a nonviolent movement underway in China at the moment. We may not be aware of it, but China has one of the highest rates of protests and demonstrations in the world. Of course it's a big country with a lot of people, so that contributes to the rate, but there are a lot. I'm not saying they're all... They are not well-planned necessarily. They're often spontaneous. They do not maintain nonviolent discipline, but people are reacting often in terms... in reaction to corruption. And in Russia there is a concerted effort, of course, to crack down on civil society. And yet what's really fascinating is that... And this speaks to the bravery of people there. It just hasn't been possible yet. And people will not necessarily be mobilizing against a government politically, but they will mobilize against concerns that they have in their daily lives. So for example, the trucker's strike that was going on last year. And I can't admit to be up to date on what's happening this moment, but this had to do with a levy on truck drivers. It also had to do with corruption, nepotism, people at the top, manipulating things in order to enrich themselves. So the truckers would not... I'm sure the truckers would not... We're not going around saying, we're not happy with our government and we want to change it. No, they were concerned about the fact that this levy was hurting them, but it was dissent. And it was organized and it was sustained. So sometimes if we... Once we start looking a little bit beyond, for example, mass demonstrations, we see that a lot of other things are happening below the surface. So with this, we've just reached our 4 o'clock deadline. I'm conscious of people's time. So I want to thank you for attending the event. Thank you very much for coming to USIP. If you can join me in thanking our panelists today. Thank you very much and do not forget there's a movie screening on Wednesday if you're interested in some of Idris's work in Sabah. Go to USIP.org and reserve your ticket. Tickets are very limited and they're going away fast, so I encourage you to go and reserve your tickets if you want to see a movie star in action. Then I invite you to do so. Many thanks everyone. Thank you very much and have a nice evening. Thank you. Thank you.