 OK, Sandy, allow me to get the hat of the presenter today. OK. All right, because we have a special guest. A guest with? Yeah. Joseph Tacbeau is a French citizen originally from Ivory Coast. He's the president of a nonprofit that deals with immigration, preventing all these immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa, going all the way to Europe. Most of them die in the Mediterranean Sea. Most? Oh, most of them. Most of them. Yes. Most of them come from West Africa and South Saharan, to try to immigrate to Europe. And I tell you, because I created a UNJ where I am the president. Yes. And today, my approach to the United States, I thank the channel that has helped me here in the world. OK, so I will translate. Yeah. We have to translate. Because my colleague, Eric Anyero, is also from Côte d'Ivoire, and he speaks French and English. So he will. Same chance. Yeah. Because you are also from Quebec? Yes. English. Yes. And American. Yes. But most of me is American. OK. So Joseph Tagbo is a French citizen, as I was saying, originally from Ivory Coast. And he is leading a nonprofit that tries to prevent, you know, that migration of people from West Africa most of the time towards the United States. OK. So these people? Yeah. We have a map somewhere. Yeah. Where is it? Yeah. The map, yeah. What we're talking about? A little bit of the Côte d'Ivoire. Oh, yeah. To go to Mali. Mali? Yes. Mali. OK. Here. Why don't we look? Eric, why don't you help with this? Everybody comes from Mali and from Côte d'Ivoire. Most of them, you know, start, most of it starts in this region. Ivory Coast, Mali, Burkina Faso, Senegal. Senegal. So you have this, you know, Sahel region. OK. But you say words that I'm not certain our audience knows what they mean. What's Sahel? Sahel is in Africa. Yeah. It's like between the desert, the Sahara Desert and the forest. So you have a Sahara Desert. Right. But let's say that they come from this region of West Africa where you have Ivory Coast, Senegal, Burkina Faso. Burkina Faso, please. Most of those countries, part of the country, most of the countries, most of the countries come from West Africa. Ivory Coast, Senegal, Burkina Faso. Burkina Faso. Yeah. Most of those countries, part of France, right? Yeah. The most part, they speak French. Yes. And in the work they do, they go through this country where we speak French, but not in Libya. In Tunisia, we speak French, in Malaysia. Can we walk the path of a migrant originally, you know? So they leave Ivory Coast in the region called Dalois. Ivory Coast is here, the coast here. They go straight to Libya, which is here, from Agadez, they can also go to Tunisia. All of them come to Agadez, which is kind of a crossroad in Niger, because Agadez is, let's say, it's like the gate of the desert, the Sahara desert. So now, from Agadez, they can either go to Libya or to Tunisia. Okay. So, but those countries, Libya and Tunisia are significantly different than Niger, correct? Yes. Okay. Posca, they are people with people who speak Arabic, correct? Yes. So it's different. Yes, yes. It's different. Different culturally. So when they get there, what's the difference? But the difference is that even when they don't speak French, they don't speak Arabic. Oh, yes. But they have a driver. They have someone who, you know, how do you call it? Speak? No, like a coyote. A coyote, yes. In the United States, a person who leads immigration is called a coyote. Yes. They give money to be able to cross it. A lot of money. Yes. Well, the first part of the crossing that begins to enter the desert is already in Nigeria, the first part from West Africa to the desert. Yes. Is it very dangerous? Yes. Very dangerous because you have to be strong to be able to cross the desert. You need to be strong to go through the deserts. That's the first part. The first part. And the second part, the crossing of the Mediterranean for small boats. Exactly. They are not secured. And I tell you, we do not cross the desert. When you pay for the desert, you can put one year or six months before leaving. So you pay to go to the desert, like to Libya or to Tunisia. And then you can stay there, wait for the next passage, which can take place a year later. So for a year, you are stranded. Yes. What do they do when they are in this region? They work like slaves. Like slaves. Yes. They work like slaves. They wait for their everything to be able to get to the Mediterranean where they are not even allowed to get to the other side. But when you say they work like slaves, we have information like what? Yes. We have information like what? They are the object of real service. We have information about them being tortured, being mistreated by whom? By whom? By whom? By who? By the people? By the government. By the government. This immigration is not validated by the government, it's not like... But you see it's not that the government The governments don't know, but his strategy is to go talk to the governments. Wait a minute, let me get back to this. Because you said that these immigrants were badly treated. By whom? Who treats them badly? Who treats them badly? It's the population. When you arrive in a country where there is no work permit, you arrive in a country where you don't have a work permit. They pay you the way they want, and also if you rebel. I mean, I heard, I heard about people who were taken hostage. Absolutely. Some are taken hostage by a mafia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who loves, by criminals. So now they arrive in the desert. They stay in Libya or in Tunisia waiting for the next step, which is going now through the Mediterranean. So are they allowed by the governments of those countries to stay there? The main objective is not to stay even there, but you know meanwhile, while they are there, do the governments tolerate them or not? They are being tolerated. They stay there, do they work? They work for people, small jobs, like illegal immigrants do. Just to wait. All the money that they have have been already given to the coyotes to go to that stage. Now, what then, what happens? They can wait six months, one year. And when they cannot go, they have to go once. They pay for one passage, but if they didn't... Where is the passage from, to where? To France? Italy. Italy. Across the Mediterranean. Italy or Spain? Spain or Italy. Both. Two later, right? Yeah. And today, it's very difficult. Why the United States? The United States of America has had the first immigration, an old country, an old continent. I mean, the US has been a land of immigration, Jewish people, Italians, Europeans, came to populate America. It was a positive immigration. Wait, wait, wait. So what this gentleman is saying is that the United States has always been a positive place that welcomes people. Okay, that's changed, correct? Yes, because when I say it's a positive immigration, because America needs people. But after today, there's also immigration, clandestine, where people don't go to the desert. They don't go to the desert to get to the United States. So there's always been... The US has always been a land of immigration, like the normal process. Which is you come here, it was Ellis Island, and then now you come from refugee camps, you get like your paper. But there's also another immigration, which is kind of wild and brutal, which is the one that we're witnessing today. But we're witnessing it also in this continent. We're witnessing it also in this continent. But today, my policy is to work with you to accompany us, those who have a choice to take the Mediterranean, how to bring them back to their country and give them work, to give them confidence. His job today is like, how do you bring back all these people that are dwelling in the desert over there who couldn't make it to Europe, who don't have any means to live and that are stranded over there. Right, so they're stranded in second countries, like Tunisia, Libya. So bring them back home. If you want to bring them back home and then give them a second chance, like to do something, have a job, bring them back to their country of origin. Yes, to come to Côte d'Ivoire, it's today to find the means to make a storage center, to be able to collect them, to give them work, to learn jobs, and then to have a head-to-head session to go to companies. And if they want to travel, whether it's the United States or Europe, bring them back home. Okay, wait a minute. So his goal, his dream is to have a center. He's raising money to have centers across those countries of origin. For those who couldn't make it to Europe or to the US, who are willing to come back because there are some who don't want to come back. Why don't they come back? Why don't they come back? They don't want to come back because they're ashamed. Because they didn't make it. They didn't make it. You're always better at home. I know that, I agree. So according to you, what is the reason for which people are willing to come back? The political reason. War. In some countries. In some countries. For example, in 2002 in Côte d'Ivoire, there was a war. Yes, there was a war. The country is stable today. So all those who are going now, there are a lot of them, more than two, masters, they don't have a job. Most of the people that are trying to make it to Europe are folks that went to university, don't have jobs. So it's no longer the image of the guy who comes from the village or who doesn't. Most of the people that are trying to make it to Europe are people that have been educated that don't find jobs. It's the same thing here. It's the same thing from the first instance. The Europeans come to Cuba. People who are educated from Cuba who are coming here. It amounts to a huge brain drain on those countries that are being left behind. It's like we say in the jargon when we empty the country of those brains. It's a brain drain. But what I want to say is that even in countries that are at peace, mismanagement, lack of democracy, social tensions and also all the policies from the western world, like structural adjustment, predation from big corporations. You go to Ivory Coast, most of the companies are not foreign companies. So there's not enough wealth for the locals. So, I mean... Okay, so people, you're saying that the people who are leaving are those who are educated, correct? Is that what you're saying? It's a mix. It's a mix. It's a mix. It appears also that the people who are leaving have to have at least some money to pay a coyote, correct? They look at it as a project. It takes years. They work... And this is true of Ivory Coast people? It's interesting because Ivory Coast is being seen as the main source of illegal immigration because people come from surrounding countries to Ivory Coast where there's more opportunity for jobs. They do all kinds of jobs, crappy jobs, and then they save money. So there could be like 10 of them or 20 of them in one room and save money, save enough money. And then also the whole family left back home, collect money for everybody. But it's... So his strategy is to bring those people to give them something to do at home. Okay, so how do you do that? What I want today is to help. He is looking for help. The European Union, the US, is the center of education for everyone and for their request to come back, to work and be in a society like everyone else. So his project is basically to open those centers where you are in the countries of origin, which are Ivory Coast, Mali, tomorrow, Bokina Faso, Niger, where people will come who couldn't make it if they're not ashamed to come back, if they really want... because sometimes they're really traumatized. They don't go back. And even to say, the immigration programs in Canada today. So there are immigration programs in Canada. Make it more open, acceptable for the Africans. Because not necessarily to go back, but Africans today, for example, in the US and in Canada, the majority of migrants are Caucasians, coming from Europe, and less and less are coming from Africa. It's like maybe because an African stands out because of the color of his skin, but if you look at the numbers, Africans are not well-served when it comes to immigration. So he's also asking those governments to raise a little bit the quotas for the Africans so that we don't have people who come illegally, but more people coming legally. There is a real, real problem right now in the immigration system, which gives more... quotas d'immigration, as we say in every country. But I'm an example. He's an example of immigration. He did that. He went through that path. Where were you born? You were born in Ivory Coast. 35 years ago, from Ivory Coast, I bought a boat from where to where? To go to Spain. Immigrate. With a big boat. Okay, were you at that time an educated person in Cote d'Ivoire? He had family. He didn't have a job. Okay, so you left. And what was that like? No, no, not in Spain, but what was the trip like? Two weeks. Two weeks? Just like some flower to just put in water and then have a little... How many people were on that boat? We were 15. 15? 15. We were 15. 15 people. From Ivory Coast to Spain? From Cote d'Ivoire to Spain. Where in Spain? To Alicante. The difference today is that it's small boats. It's not the same thing. Why not? Back in the days, you could be smuggled in a huge ship. Right. I'm not saying to do it. It's dangerous. I mean, it's not telling people to say it. To do it. It's dangerous. You know, what to know is like... 35 years ago, maybe it was like 1% of the people that, you know, it wasn't like the same amount. And then back in the day, he said there were no people like him to tell people to prevent, I mean, to... to... to stay home. But also what I want to say is like 35 years ago, the situation wasn't that dire. The situation in the... In Ivory Coast, in those countries, we grew up in the country. Now it's worse. You were just there. I was just there. People don't get anything to eat. But these countries are being shown to the world according to... I mean, to the World Bank and IMF as countries that have good, you know, growth rates. But it's... most of the wealth of the country is in the ends of a big cooperation, foreign cooperation, France and, you know, an elite that is, you know, sinking into... So you would argue then, I guess that poverty is worse now in Ivory Coast? Air? The... Air? No, no, no. Now it's getting better. Now it's getting better. Yeah, but, you know, the challenges... It was in 2002, the war. That's the period of the war. But before the situation, it wasn't like that. There are always... Why do people continue to go? Because of the 2002 war. But before the Africans, the Ivorian who left Europe, it was with a boost of studies. Before the war, before, you know, the economic crisis, people that were leaving Ivory Coast to go to Europe, were going with a scholarship or going to school. We were not used to the country. First of all, demographically, there were less people. It was better than today. Even today, with all these fancy buildings and all these things, it's worse. What I'm saying that... What you're saying is it's worse economically for people, but also because of the war? There are wars, political instability, but also economic hardship. Because, you know, today it's like even in the US, I mean, economies no longer work for the people. It's only for the big corporates and Wall Street. As long as Wall Street can go up and with the Nasdaq or whatever, people think that economy is, you know, a stock market. Economy is production. This country doesn't produce anymore. And then you take 14 countries that are under, you know, the rule of France, for example, and that are still controlled by Europe, that are, you know, a gear to work in the best interest of Europe, rather than the best interest of their own people. So you can have all the bridges, infrastructures, the roads, the fancy building, but the people themselves don't get it. OK, and you agree with... I agree with him because it's true that the country is built with the infrastructures that exist, but the difference, poverty, the young who are not accompanied, who are in trouble. Today, what I need in terms of America, I'm launching my call, I need nearly $500,000 to help because in a week there will be the African Cup. All Africans will come to Bijan. In one week, there will be the African Nation Cups. It's a huge tournament in Ivory Coast. Yes, yes. So, on this occasion, there will be 2 million spectators who will visit the country. There will be 15% of young people who will want to immigrate. Of these, the youth that will come to that competition will try to migrate to Europe. 15% of 2 millions, like we're talking about maybe 300,000 people. No, 15% will be 30,000. 30,000. 30,000. 30,000. No, more than that. So, this money is to help to stay. So, with this money we can try to do something to discourage some of them or most of them. That's why she came to see us so that we can reverberate that message to our world. If the state of the world wants to help because at the end nowadays you have I saw a guy from Togo who came all the way to Latin America and came to the U.S. It's a new route now. It's a new route. I know, but every night on television the news is reporting about our broken border with Mexico. Yes, I know that immigration is very, very big and also very difficult for the dollar and the French. There's really a wave. A big march. And I think it will be just a little head in the back. So, $500,000 or $1,000,000, you know can make more. Okay, I know, but who? We don't have that money ourselves. I'm just asking, what can we do in the United States? What can we do in the United States? What can we do in the United States? It's to be part of with my NONJ to the international news that I know and that they are with me in these projects. I'm in the city of Vermont. I'm addressing the I'm addressing the I'm addressing the what leadership in Vermont? What leadership in Vermont? I mean, probably In other words, you would like to speak to the leaders in Vermont about this subject? You would like to talk about that in the leadership? That's why you've come here and are speaking to our audience. That's why I came. What can we specifically do? We're not the most powerful people in Vermont. We're normal citizens. What can we do at our level? Pass the message? Okay. Pass the message with politicians or with people of good will. Okay, let me just ask tell you, say something. The leaders of our country right now are terribly concerned about this subject that you're talking about. The leaders of this country are very concerned about this night on the news. Every night they're talking about okay, now I as a citizen of the United States agree with you that it's better that people stay home honestly and build their own countries because because so often but I don't but unless those countries but unless those countries but but but the technology the mechanics the information let's call we have to be honest with each other because you know I mean if it means that capitalism will die because all this is the result of like extreme market oriented economies I think that you're right I think that the whole world frankly is crumbling and the whole what? and that we do have to encourage people to develop their own lives and their own economic opportunity I'm just asking how do we do that so the government I mean that's why we should empower organizations like he's to work with the local government to find ways to but isn't his local government every coast? yeah but by itself the youth has decreed the year 2023 the year of the youth but by itself he can't so it's like it's a job that everybody has to like the US the European Union all these polls where people are rushing to die on like crappy boats and should come together and find a way to keep people in their countries but make those countries prosperous prosperous for the people for the it's like I don't know how you do that without favoring the big corporates I don't know how you do that without favoring the lackeys and other you do that by favoring entrepreneurship on the ground of small business that's what his organization is about I don't know how to do it I try to do it here so we work together okay how I'm glad to be happy we have the whole evening or maybe next the whole upcoming month I'm very glad to be here I'm very glad to be here I'm very grateful for Montreal I'm very happy to have met you but your day must have been miserable because I've been so kind of miserable myself about my court cases I apologize I'm happy that you're here and I'm happy to have done this with you yeah so good luck I will be in Abidjan during that maybe I'll do a report for our network so that people can understand what you're doing over there and we can always work together America the people of the United States must help me with this immigration I need to raise funds and I need funds to be able to go to the end of my work, it was my last word thank you I need money I need help from countries like the US especially here, I'm happy to be here but I have to pass that message help us keep the kids and the people there I would do anything to help you except I'm not a rich woman but we don't have money so we ask the government if they hear your message to do it and if this trip goes through the roads of immigration in the Mediterranean now, more and more and we have to stop wars what? what? what did you say? that I'm a petty bourgeois? rich man I'm a rich woman, you're out of your mind alright, that's it folks, thank you thank you very much Joseph Takbo president of Agir contre l'immigration clandestine act against illegal immigration yes and Sandy, that was a pleasure to have a country man even if he's a French man now bye bye