 Mae'n eich beth, mae'n ein bodi erioed yn gwneud, a mae hi'n allanon ni'n teimlad directa ar y dyfyniad o'nith. Mae'n deunintelligible tyll, eisiau yn mynd yn ymddangos. Ylltladım wedi gyrfa cyfrwyhu cyfrwyh rhai, gwrs, mae ei fyddeidio ar y ddiwrnod yn ei mynd ymddangos o'r meirthau. Felly, mae'r cyfrwyh cyfrwyh eich cyfrwyh. Erwyr yn rhaid? Mae'r cyfrwyh o'r cyfrwyh wedi eisiau ei gyrfa cyfrwyh ymddangos. Dw i'i fydd cysysio? No, they were looking for a missing child, they were looking for a missing child. Well actually the Portuguese police I think struggled from the very beginning believing the abduction story because as soon as they went in, the crime scene had been contaminated, the McCans and their friends had been all through the crime scene before the police arrived. Other people had come in from the holiday resort trampling all through it and for doctors who know about forensic evidence again I found that extraordinary. One of the extraordinary twists and turns for me was so that was May the 3rd when Madeline was reported missing on May the 4th. The very first TV broadcast about it was on GMTV. Good morning. Yeah, good morning. No, that's what it's now morphed into but then it was GMTV and the editor was Martin Frizel who is now the editor of this morning. And they said that a call came through about a missing child and they put it straight through and put it on to air and that was when we first heard about missing Madeline. And what was really curious was the woman who came through was a friend of Kate's and she also claimed in that week she actually lived in the same street as one of Gordon Brown's brothers and she claimed in that week to have bumped into him and said you know these are friends of mine they need help but all of that is so extraordinary. Do you know what I mean? What's the chances of Kate McCann's mate living in the same street as Gordon Brown's brother? Do you see what I'm saying? All of this stuff is like... Question mark somewhere. And that's why this is an intriguing case. Even down to things like the apartment that they rented in Prada Llews it was owned by a family called the McCanns who weren't related to the McCanns. Even stuff like that and it's always intriguing isn't it when you fall upon those sort of things and go strange synergy taking place here. What's this all about? And that's what that case is like and it's one of those cases where one thing can be a bit off, right? We're not talking about one thing. We're talking 20, 30 things. That all kind of keep adding up and keep stacking up that make you have to go. This story is not as told. Because when he was getting an earful of Jerry he's so calm and collective but again is that because he's a doctor and he's been through, seen so many dead bodies as well. Because we've still got to question it. Is there 100% proof that they were involved or is it just people... We're experiment hunters, we're always searching. It sounds like people like to hear bad shit as well as a good where we could be wrong. I always... Here's the thing James, I'm open minded because I think you have to be as an investigator, right? I am fixed on something until something arrives to tell me that I have to question that. And then I will, I'm not arrogant, I will question that. But what I will say without a shadow of a doubt is that there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that Madeline died in apartment 5A and that her body was disposed of in some way rather than evidence to suggest an abduction took place. And so I'm just going on the evidence. The Portuguese police released their files. There was a lot of information in there. It was quite clear that the Tapasnain were not answering truthfully. I mean, who needs to do two rough timelines about what you're doing when a child's missing, which they did do, right? Change their statements, witness statements changed. All really weird, peculiar stuff. Right at the beginning knowing you're going to use this fund for legal fees. Why? You've got a missing child. Surely you'll be using it for travel fees. Do you know what I'm saying? Go find out. The dog that was involved as well was at the best dog in the world fast snapping out dead bodies. Eddie and Keeler were the creme de la creme of enhanced victim recovery dogs, right? This is Martin Grime we're talking about. Anybody has to do a Google search. If you want a dog handler, we're talking Martin Grime. This is a man that the FBI used to put away people in the States when they couldn't find bodies, right? So Martin Grime was the top and Eddie and Keeler were exemplary and they went and they alerted to only the places to do with Madeline. So they went in all the apartments of all the people who the friends who were there. They alerted to the apartment where Madeline was reported missing. They alerted to a key ring that was in a higher car that Kate and Jerry had hired 28 days or so after Madeline had been reported missing. They alerted to Kate's trousers. They alerted in the new apartment that the McCans had been moved to away from the crime scene. They didn't alert anywhere else. So to me it's like all these dog alerts are where either around her parents, around her family or where she was reported missing. Dismissed? Well, they said that the evidence, they didn't say the evidence was wrong. They said it was inconclusive and it needed more. And there were problems at the forensic science service and what we have now is Dr Mark Perlin who was a world renowned expert who has come out, offered to do to reexamine that DNA for free. Contact Scotland Yard where Operation Grange, which is the British investigation, they're not interested. Do you think Madeline McCann's dead? Yes. What time was she not reported? Was it not hours later before they contacted the police when she apparently went missing? Well, they tell us that their first notification that she'd gone missing was at 10 o'clock when Kate went back to the apartment to check on them because obviously their story was that they went out every night to the tapas bar across the swimming pool. They went to their apartments, their tapas bars there and they said that them and their friends went out every night to have dinner at the tapas bar. They went back every, well that even changed. I think one minute was 15 minutes, that was half an hour, but either way they said they went back regularly to double check on the children. That already was a problem for me, right? I mean, we've just talked about me being an overbearing parent, right? So the idea of going off on the lash, leaving your little babies, that to me, I didn't like these people from straight away. I was like, there's something off about these people. But you know, it's always been an intriguing story to me. It doesn't add up. And like I say, my mind is open. If any information, I get information all the time. I actually got a call yesterday with somebody who swears to me that they saw Madeline in Peru, right? Well, what have I done today? I haven't ignored it. I've been straight on to somebody, a contact out there saying what is the likelihood that, because they said that Madeline was with a particular person. I said what is the likelihood that this person was in Peru? I gave them the dates and so I'm willing to. So you're still investigating it as well? I will always investigate. If you come to me and you sound legit. Some people come to me and tell me crazy stuff, which my solar plexus rejects straight away. It's like, I'm not having that. But if somebody sounds legit and they give me all the details of when they were there, do you know what I'm saying? You know. Because there's not allegations that said the kids were drugged because you know, on holiday, kids don't sleep. So what time did apparently put the kids to bed? Oh yes. So the time. So basically, they said that they went off to the Tapas Bar at 8.30. And then they were coming back periodically. And what they claimed was that Madeline was first alerted to be reported missing at 10pm. And Kate went running back. And again, she's gone running back. So you're saying there's a predator that's taken your oldest child, but you've left your twins who were young in the apartment. Who would do that when I've been to the scene of crime twice? She could come out on the balcony and go, Jerry! That could have happened. You don't need to come back out and run back up. No. And that was odd to me again. Those instincts were really weird stuff. So that was at 10 o'clock. The police log shows that the police were not called until 10.41 when they claimed that the police were called immediately. That was not the case. So it was at least 41 minutes during which time people traipse through the apartment. The crime scene was a mess. Yeah, contaminated. Have the other kids ever came forward? Why have they never been seen? Or the other people who were at the hotel with them? Why have they never came and spoken about any of this? What? All their friends? Yeah. Well, this is where it gets tricky, of course, isn't it? Because, hypothetically, let's run a hypothetical situation. Let's say that something did happen to Madeline that they're all aware of. Well, I've talked to a lot of crime investigators about this. How do you manage to get hypothetically all these people in a group to agree to go along with your lie? I think the most common theory is that they were dragging the kids so that the kids wouldn't wake up. The theory is that Madeline was half-dosey when Jerry came in, I think, at 9.15, heard his voice outside, talking downstairs to a TV producer who was also holidaying and fell off the back of the sofa, possibly hit her head. That's where the blood and cadab and possibly died behind the sofa. I think that's one of the most common theories about what happened to her. I'm sorry I keep going off on a tangent with you, James. My mind is like there's so much. There's just so much about this case. Even to this day, it boggles my mind because it's so insane. It's just so insane. So much of it just doesn't make sense, doesn't add up. So they had that period when they didn't do anything. So the crime investigators I've talked to, because I'm really curious, how couldn't all nine people be involved in a secret? Keep it all this time, 13 years later. Actually, it's quite common. Because if in the event that's what happened, don't forget all those other adults would have also been complicit to a certain degree because they would have known that the children were being given cow-poll or whatever it was to make them drowsy. They might have even been doing it to their own little toddlers. So they're all complicit and in that situation, who knows, just say hypothetically that they found her dead body. Even doctors don't necessarily know what to do with a dead body that they're not prepared for, do you know what I'm saying? So that's why I obviously investigated so I was interested in the immediate. Those immediate 24 hours, what took place there and there's a lot of clues in that. As I say, they did two different timelines. Jerry couldn't remember whether he came in the back door or the side door. Really weird stuff that just didn't make sense, but they were changing it. It would appear according to the story they were given. Because one minute the abductor had come in the window, the next they were uncertain. I've seen people doing interviews on a TV who's lost their kids. Maybe kids have went missing or kids have died. And they look distraught just because they did an interview and people were saying questions. It doesn't mean you're guilty, but for me there is something suspicious about it all. What's your run-down on it all? What is your theory with the information you have? What is your theory about all the situation between Madeline McCann? My theory is that Madeline died in that apartment. That abduction was essentially a ffaked abduction. My theory is the same as the Portuguese police. The Portuguese police haven't really changed. That was their original theory and when they archived the case. They made Kate and Jerry Arguido, which is Persons of Interest in Portugal. There's a legal protection there, obviously, because it protects them in case they are then prosecuted. They were made Arguido and they said they were never going to leave Portugal until they found Madeline. It was either the next day or within two days of them being made Arguido. They were back on the plane and back to England again. The Portuguese police believed very much that Madeline died accidentally in the apartment. That was concealed and an abduction was ffaked. Everything that I've found or the information tends to back up that theory. I definitely don't believe she was abducted. I definitely don't. I know a lot of people still say leave them alone. I get it, I understand, of course, but do you ever think the truth always comes out at the end? I don't care what it is, the truth always comes out. It is with this, you see. It's really interesting. Bear in mind, right from the beginning I didn't believe this. It was 2007, right? It was 13 years ago. I've seen how the tide is. This is the thing about truth, is that truth will surface whether you want it to or not. You know that because bit by bit as we start to gather more information and sort of acclimatise to what has come towards us. So we were fed a very, very strong narrative, right? They went out every night, they were returning, and there was a small window in which Madeline was taken. So a very, very specific narrative. Well, once I had unpacked that narrative and realised that didn't stand up to scrutiny, then it was, well, what else could have happened to her, right? So I never... I'm not the person to heap problems on top of people, right? That's not my aim, but I believe that this is... Well, I don't believe I know, this is a matter of public interest. In the UK we've spent £30 million on a crime that didn't even happen in this country. We are not looking at the people who were there. In any missing person case, especially a missing child's case, they look at the people who were around the child first. British police have systematically avoided doing that. Colin Sutton, who I interviewed for both our documentaries, who was the senior investigating officer for Levi Bellefield, who killed Millie Dowler, and ITV made a programme on Colin, and Colin was a very, very senior Met Police cop, brilliant man. I interviewed him and the news of the world before Operation Grange started, which is the British investigation into Madeleine, shortly before it started, the news of the world, which was still functioning then, ran a story saying that Colin Sutton was in line to lead Operation Grange. Colin Sutton, he says it's on record, it's in our dog. He received a phone call from a very senior Metropolitan Police cop, saying, don't do it. And Colin said, why? And he said, you won't be able to investigate it how you would want to, because Colin's a straight cop, right? He's a straight cop. So I said to him, well, how do you interpret that? He said I won't be able to look at the parents. So Operation Grange started off from a very narrow remit, and that's backed up by Andy, can't remember his surname, who was the original investigating officer of Operation Grange, saying that neither the parents said this in the press conference to a launch of Operation Grange, neither the parents or the friends are persons of interest. That doesn't sound like a legitimate investigation if you are immediately before the investigation starts ruling out the very people who were there. Do you think they should do a lie detector and put some speculation in their bed? Well, I'm not convinced by lie detectors. I work with a man called Terry Mullins. He's got eye recognition now. The first one is kinder in the UK. Oh, wow. Eye recognition. What does that do? I just don't know what reads the eyes. Oh, my God. You can't hang me. So I work with Terry, and we've got something coming up, something very big. But these are the kind of names that listen, it is still speculation, but if you're innocent, then that's speculation. Then you would think I'm going to prove everyone wrong. See, I don't know if I would, because I don't trust lie detector tests. I get worried about them, right? Because I worry about, you know, if you get anxious. But this is the... I know people say you can fail it, you can cheat it. Right. But with eye recognition, it's spot on. Interesting. I know what I think they should do is I think they should go right back to the beginning. I think that Kate and Jerry were, and their friends were never prepared even to do a reconstruction. They'd never done a police reconstruction. Right. Obviously Kate infamously refused to answer 49 questions, pertaining to the disappearance of Madeleine. And these are not the actions of parents who... They've lost a kid. Yeah, they are. And when you look at the other side, which I always do, I always try to, she was legally advised by her legal rep not to answer questions. But James, my child's missing, right? There's no legal rep in the world who can shut me up from giving information to the people who are potentially looking for her. I'd be... And also the fact that Kate didn't even search for Madeleine. I mean, that's weird, right? Your instinct, you're in a holiday resort. Your child goes missing. I'd be ripping the sand from the beach. But she stayed in her apartment. And then when there was criticism, she admitted in one of the first interviews and when asked why didn't they go searching, she was like, well, we did loads of other things. Because they were busy setting up the business arranging all the business operators to protect. You're only talking shut up if you're hiding something. Yeah, well, it's problematic to me.