 this is Sonali. Thank you all for coming out some time for attending today's webinar on the episode nine of the Business X Learning series, Invest, Scale and Value. To all the attendees out there, please type in any questions you might have in the Q&A section and we'll try to answer as many as possible at the end of the session. I would now like to welcome our speaker, Mr. Gaurav Mariah, Chairman of the Franchise India Group, a very warm welcome to you, sir. Thank you. Thank you, Sonali, and welcome friends and welcome to the ninth edition of Business X series. This series was started for covering three points in businesses, especially I would say small and mid-sized businesses because that's the focus of Business X and the Franchise India Group. The idea was to really cover three parts. One was investing. How do you invest? Second is scale. How do you scale your businesses? And third was value. So every week, we come and talk about these subjects. Today, I'll probably spend time between covering what I've done in terms of the value side. I mean, we've done two episodes earlier. How do you value your business? Why is it so important to value your business? But I also talk about exit. And I'll let you put some perspective why I chose these two to get together because I feel that this is a very critical time. This is very, very critical time in where we are living, especially small and medium enterprise, because I feel that the impact of this changes and this whole downturn and pandemic and things that has impacted the most, I would say the small and medium enterprises, especially now because the fundamental of these impact is because not only the overall consumption has gone down, because the smaller and medium enterprises normally run on a smaller chest. They have lesser cash reserves than larger companies historically have much more treasure. Second, being a public company, sometimes because they have a lot of value to leverage themselves. And I think if even if the bankers have to really support, come and support, they would like to support the larger companies. The smaller companies become more vulnerable at this stage because of run out of cash flows, whatever reserves are there is finished. They need liquidity to bring back the cycle. And there is also a very, very big pressure on their consumption cycle, which means that even if you are in business, you are doing 20, 30% of your business and so on and so forth. So at this tiring times, what is going to happen? And we'll talk about that, that if this is a situation arising in companies, what should be the strategies for them and what they should really require? But let's set some perspective in terms of why valuation is so important for companies to get it done. And one of the areas with business X and business equity really works is helping companies to value themselves. And surprisingly in India, the only less than 1% businesses are valued, about 30 million businesses exist and less than 1% are valued. But let me, let me some clear some doubts of the whole valuation because whenever a lot of young people come to us and the smaller medium companies come to us, their perception on valuation is very different. And I can tell you over my experience over England, many, many years that only value are the firm can value only if ultimately it delivers earnings. That's the fundamental. If you're not delivering earnings, you're not having strong bottom lines to be delivered, then it is. If you're early stage companies, you might take earnings, you might find and discount your earnings for next three years, four years, five years, but eventually it is all going to be the value is going to be built on earnings. And a lot of misperception is there in the market where people would say that because of your, your fast and both market and things, all this is fine. This is all built up. But eventually how much earnings you will be able to deliver would create a value that in centric value of an asset is determined by the cash flows you expect from NASA to generate over its life. And how uncertain you feel about these cash flows, which means that you know, how certain or uncertain these cash flows are would also determine the deviation of that valuation normally is an art. It's not a science. It's a, it's a lot of people think that it's a, it's a science. It's a, it's an actually an art, you know, it's an especially these days and I think value would be determined by who's looking at your company and what stage they are in and so forth. So there's a lot of things would change in the, in the valuation stage. I always say that the valuation sees from, I mean, you have to really have to design valuation and especially the current times you always see from the eyes of the investor, how he's going to look at your business model and valuation cycles also keep changing because like if you are in a, in a situation these days where obviously you will not get the right kind of valuation which you expected pre-COVID. So, and you have to be realistic on that. You have to be very, very realistic and I see a lot of challenges happening in the, in the deals which we had on market and we were representing, we're not able to conclude because of the unexpected at either sides. The buyer side is unexpectedly looking at a much lower valuations. On other side, the seller side, we also facing a lot of problems because of that. So a lot of transaction, while it looks like that this is, this is actually getting a platform for, for MNA but it's not really happening because I think the expectation at both sides is, is not there. So, I mean, I feel that at what, valuation also, if even if you're not really looking at getting into selling your businesses, but valuation still would be very important because it gives a lot of insight for, for a companies which have historically not really looked at their businesses much in depth. I know a lot of businesses when we started doing this exercise, we found that the entrepreneur, while he now wants to get into that, but, but never has designed a business model which was ready to be transferred or, or sold or, or when you start doing the whole valuation exercise, we find that there are a lot of missing leaks. So typically, readiness for a company to really even look at an exit or a partial sale or something of that nature would mean anything from a six months to 18 months or two years kind of a life cycle. So you can sort of a very important that you start this exercise. If you start this exercise, it's much easier for you to really discover your own business and put things in place. And so another very important area for valuation is the valuation models are always quantitative, where valuation becomes an objective. Fundamental is that we always wanted to achieve some certain number to it and, and we push up the business models through and I think most of the times, especially for startups, the valuations are, are done that. But not all things have to be seen in the, in the whole balance sheet, you what kind of assets if you hold both tangible, intangible, what are the liabilities you're holding on, what is the kind of an ancient matrix you have. And, but in my simple terms, I drive, drive it on a SAS principle, SAS principle, SAS means as what is the strategic value is sitting in the business, what is an asset sitting in the business, and what are the subscribers in the business. Between these three things, I will try to drive that sometimes I only find two, sometimes I only find one in the business, and sometimes all three are available. So depending on where it is, your valuation would be tagged out. But a lot of questions one has to really ask when you're looking at valuation, how predictable for your future cash flows are. And this is where the real answers would come in, and how you are going to improve your margins and profitability. Here I did a session last time called growth versus scale. You should please go on and see that. A lot of times, you know, companies which are now classic old style companies are very growth centric companies, where which means that when you, when you grow your revenues, you grow or you also grow and you know, put more resources in that is very directly proportionate. But the new age company more technology companies actually scale, where your revenues might grow exponentially, but you don't deploy the same number of resources. So it's a big shift. So which means that the margins after three to four or five years would significantly improve in the scale up companies. So how do you really shift your business models to become scale up, and hence you will be able to improve your margin rather on the country I've seen the classic businesses which are looking good at this stage in three to four years because of inflation, the cost rising, but the revenues notable to rise in the same manner. They actually had an imbalance in terms of their profitability margins and so on and lots of companies which were very exciting at one point in time actually started failing one point in time, you know, so because the business model and margins erode as they as they grow in I think so how do you really shift the business model. So a lot of these businesses which were which were do it yourself businesses, technology companies which create their own multiplier, we actually would do much better in the in the performance. Another thing is how would be the sustenance and stability in the performance would come, how do you really ensure that next four or five years, you would have a lot of sustenance and stability in the business. What is happening to the founding team, what is the founding team telling you and how strong that funding team outside, even if you take the core founder out, what is the else the founding team sitting there and how strong that it and who's your competition inside and outside and their influence and threat to the business. So what is all this is telling you this would all make define that how strong your business model will be. Then once you have done that then there are some practices which we really look at from a valuation viewpoint we look at multiples and there are ways of looking at different companies at different structures, how do you really do that. We also look at your profitability adjustments and we also look at a market valuation. So what is the market telling you which means that a comparative understanding of what other businesses would be have been sold on the same price especially in the small and medium in price that's become the big challenge. When you're doing a large companies or listed companies there are a lot of comparisons you can really bring in but when you're doing a transaction especially for a small and medium enterprise this becomes a very difficult because you don't have a lot of data points available to compare the valuation structures. So large part of the valuation would still remain around the multiples and the profitability of the business model and as I said the SaaS principle what needs to be done. So these are very important points when you look at the valuation. I see a lot of people who are joined in so if you have questions keep asking your questions on a Q&A box so we will take up more questions this time because you've done the series about nine series if you have any questions from even earlier ones please keep writing on that I think I'll be more than happy to do that and even if you want to really ask a question about particularly about your business which means that how this is right for your business at what stage you need to value or look at a transformation or exit or anything which can which can help your business at this stage please go out and write a Q&A. I will take maybe another 10 minutes on discussing on the exit side and then I will come back to taking a lot of questions if you are available. So let's now get into the today's discussion. The valuation I've done two full detailed episodes so you can really go out on our business X Facebook page they're all available there so you can really give you in detail how you look at valuation but now let's get into the whole exit side. So exit I think the one of the most important aspect for exit is why exit you know and why should companies look at exiting and why it is so important because I feel that it's you know so I'll give you some data which I was doing some research and found that earlier it was number was very low but this is not so much from India but more from markets like US. At this stage small and medium in price as high as given a choice but 60% would like to exit the business right. This is only I'm talking about the data from a small and medium price more more in US but US is a very close reflection of what doing it because the permutation of small medium enterprises to large companies is very similar to what Indian system is about 97 98%. So this number becomes very very high and very clear reasons are it's the circumstances that clear the situations here and you also have to understand some countries the business is much better than India because they have government support there are a lot of aid coming from government they're putting 50 60% of their salaries of their employees and things like that but when you look at Indian businesses the number can be even more bigger. You know I can tell you a FNB industry hospitality industry travel industry of things with these industries if you just pick up the asset and just put in on that thing and say would you like to sell the business I can I can tell you almost everybody is looking at it even at the haircut so even people who are I mean I've been called by a company out of Hyderabad who's just opened their micro brewery and I think in January or something like that and they want to really exit the business and they're looking for a major haircut so things of that nature is already around us and I feel that the mistake a lot of small and medium enterprise people would do is that they would either wait for this whole cycle to get over and then see recovery and I can tell you already if you are in a business which is impacted and every business is impacted but if it is a I would say mid to high impact kind of first situation then you already six months into this which means when you open up a business you would need fresh liquidity to be going into business which means that you need to recapitalize the business and I think from the reaching out to the pre-COVID days would take you another nine months to 12 months cycle which means that you will have a nine month to 12 month you know more capital so in these scenarios if people have little bit of liquidity left if they go and invest and take that call to go that long and with not having enough cash on that thing they would get can get into much bigger serious prices of complete liquidation and I feel and that's exactly what the risk is at this stage in small and medium enterprises so it would be very important to understand where you are and which stage you are in and what call you need to take and when and that's very important and that would really benchmark and we'll talk about the whole larger timing but I'm talking more from a current scenario how the timing is looking like but normally when people want to really sell the business or exit the business or find another buyer they normally have peaked out so they have really reached out to peaked out they feel that they cannot do whatever they need to be done second there is a bigger opportunity available which means orbit change can be done but they don't have capital to take that next orbit change which means you have much bigger opportunities out there but you don't have that in that thing third is very opportunist way which means more selling for value you feel that somebody comes and gives you a good value and offers you good price and you want to really sell for a value that's also very good this happens in most of the times in the early stage of consolidation when the consolidation starts like these days a lot of consolidation would happen in say adrutech of you know already we are seeing companies being acquired there is a lot in the health doing in health tech again reliance acquired one company so a lot of these early stage businesses which are which are what I call the new new disruptions in the market when the consolidation starts happening they're the first to be picked up so a lot of that has already started another thing which is which means that never fight the elephant it means if you have companies in a which are much larger player has entered they don't do have to fight out it you need to really collaborate and and a lot of you know equity-based M&A deals would happen like say for example OYO at one point time or wanted to get into co-working and they inquired you know wait so these kind of acquisitions are very very clearly seen when the there's a lot much larger player wants to enter the space it's best to be if you have a business which fits into their requirement it's best to approach them and and try to look at it and you also in some cases if you want to really expand the larger consumer base and you feel that there is a somebody strategic has much more wider distribution reach or something like that then also there is a call for exit but in today's time I think it's a much different scenario and there's a very different scenario this time the scenario is more around situation where you are in and I think the biggest situation is is predominantly capitalization of businesses a lot of people would like to sell their businesses not that the business will not good but the future capitalization required to do that they might not have or they don't want to invest into businesses so I feel that a lot of that is going to happen and one has to really be very very sharp and very quick to understand is your business you know if you don't see the business going to the next level maybe this is a time to really take a serious call to exit the business or some part of the business so I'm advising these days companies who are coming to me and it's a there was a chain with the restaurants have come to me and they want to really look at doing it so I picked up about 40% of their assets and say let's sell this 40% of assets it will give us enough liquidity and structure to keep up the 60% balance so those kind of strategies would work so I feel that this stage rather than leveraging more companies especially who are already leveraged leveraging more is a dangerous idea and also overly forecasting that you will be able to turn around faster is also a bad idea so if you're not able to see clearly 12 months sustainance then I think exit would make a big important sense partial or a full exit and we'll talk about that so if you're looking to really sell the business I divide this into four parts one is timing how do you really understand the timing of what is the right time and when is to be done second what is a perceived value what do you value you really see and and put it as a firm mind that this is a perceived value I want to really do it looking at the circumstances how do you approach that it's also very important how do you approach the valuation and what are the ways of doing the valuation so valuation is just not our numbers it's also based on the perceived value is also based on multiple things I think the software side of things would also make a lot of sense what is your customer telling about your company you know that's very very big important part of it how you retaining your customers that's very important part of it what is your value proposition overall as a company what is your you know employees and commitment with the employees available in the company what is what is a commitment level you have with your suppliers all that is all that has bundled together and to create the valuation now from a timing viewpoint I think this is very critical to define and that would really come from your self assessment of where your position you are positioned in your liquidity and your financial position and and a structure because that's very important so first you start with the first step you have to really start with how much amount of money you really need if for reasons you need to read to run the business fully or still continue to manage that what kind of money you really need to require from today I think and what is availability of that money and if the answer is you don't have that money then very clearly you need to decide the second point is that would you have courage enough to really go and still lead this business or you have fatigued enough or you don't want to do that then obviously the answer second answer would come that you want to take the managerial role or managing the company or no you know I've done a few exits purely not because the business was not good on entirely but I felt I cannot manage the business because I had no time of doing that so my call was not really more financially but it was I think I had very clearly that I don't have any management capability of that business at that particular time and because I was pretty occupied in that business so one has to really see from these two perspectives one is a more financial call where you need to really see what is your financial call and second is a management call if you see what these two things and I've not seen I've not said management ownership is very different you can still be owner you can still be part of equity shareholding and I think but management control needs a lot of time commitment and this and financial is a financial commitment these two are very clear answers one has to really find out so first is you know you need to really see what kind of money you need to earn on that you need to set your timing and on that timing you need to really set you know what time frame you're looking at and I feel that if a good exit has to be planned then you have to really give anything from a three months to six months lifecycle and and if you if you feel that by that time you need to see the company is intact is not further eroded it's not losing its customers faster than you know and things of that nature has to be really controlled so you need to really see that between three to six months you're able to find that then you need to on the manager side you need to really see that how much time you would be able to put in the business and even if you want the new buyer comes in and he wants you to be part of it for some time and then also you need to really define your time frame that what kind of time you want to give and what is the value of that time you want really ask for that so that's also very clearly doing it third a fourth point is would be that you need to really understand how much ownership you want to really hold in the business you know so most of the time if you are manually controlling you sell a small part of the equity then you need to manage that business for a longer period but if you sell large part of your equity then then house your ownership infrastructure a lot of people sell in phases with the very clear guidelines which means that I would sell say maybe to begin with 60% of the company with a pre-agreed value that they would acquire the balance 40 at a certain benchmark until that certain benchmark I might continue to be in a managerial role to manage the business and performance sometimes investors would look hold you accountable for the performance by the time you are going to be there because there you had the historically presented the data that this company would go from this to entire thing and this might change your equity pattern which means that they give on a good company would give you incentive for for a better performance say if I sell a company at 60% value 60% of the company at a certain value and balance 40% is agreed in the next two years for a certain value and if I over perform that I might have a chance is that I get much better price agreed on the 40% half but on the other side if I have reduced not perform that business then I would get a much lower value on that so you need to really understand how your ownership placed I normally would advise my clients to create a fixed value rather than creating a variance because variance can go in favor of you and it can also go against you I've seen a lot of people who have done that kind of deals have actually more so the times 80 90% of times actually gonna lesser that's why most of the buyers would like to exercise that but from if I'm representing the seller I would say try to be on a fixed value get to get a fair value right now and agree on that and just stick around that payment options also one has to really clearly see what are the payments option what else you know what are you going to get out of this in the payment title what sometimes there are partial payment cycles how you're secured on that and and sometimes your stock options and stock options are great when the business is the other company which is buying for you and you're getting a stock and this is stock is going to go and how is your ability to liquidate that stock also that's very important and I've seen these days like pre-covid there were some companies which have actually just pure stock deals and these stock deals were good because these companies were going on a very very high valuation and imagine post-covid these valuation is eroded like say Oyo Oyo was a very high valuation if the stock deal was done by Oyo it was a great thing because the company's valuation was going very high but now with this happening and especially what happens in hospitality the there would be a significant erosion of valuation which means that if I did a stock value at a certain level say some Oyo bought my company at 200 crores pure stock where business and but now their valuation going down if your valuation can be finished so you need to really see where you are and how patient you are to hold that cycle it might come back but or then the real IPO happens then you will be able to do the liquidation but what is your what is your entire thing so in this case also I always advise past partial cash partial stock options stock options get you upside can also get you a good website but cash would get you some liquidity for whatever you want to do so you cash out some partial cash out and partial she can be this multiple other options are there for companies which have already gone and done multiple rounds and so on for them IPO can be a good opportunity to liquidate strategic acquisition is very good most of our times now particularly in these times I would see more strategic acquisition which means that same people from the same industry would buy people who are want to see you as a market entry option that can be a great option so I was say operating in north and I don't have anything in south and there was something selling I can buy that can give me a faster market entry consolidation position getting your market share consolidation can not be option so but industry buyouts would be a very very clear sense to me at this moment there can be also a lot of diversification from large companies to look at a particular category and they might like to consolidate as a space because a particular company wants to enter FNB now the chips are down the lot of operators are down in the stage but if somebody comes with a lot of liquidity and a lot of cash can really consolidate a lot of business together so this can be a good opportunity financial investors normally come on the stage where you have a very strong three to four years five years value space and or the bottom lines are already very interesting most of the times people don't want to sell it at this hour but financial investors are also there sometimes you want to really sell only partial equity somebody would take a minority in the company that also is a is an option a lot of time that happens that is what most of the structured investments would do I mean they would pick up smaller equity in the companies and the final which is the which is most time happens in smaller businesses and you know and mid-term businesses because they're not even to find any of the above they would get into liquidation so that is most of the time you're just selling off the assets and whatever you want to recover of the assets really comes out so these are things happening around and I feel that this is going to be a very big pressure time in next two quarters starting from September to March 31st 2021 I feel that a lot of companies would come in a tremendous amount of pressure because I think this was a holding time this was a pause time from March to say August this pause time is getting over now people would come have to come out and really start answering a lot of things which they were not answering and and they start looking at their businesses the business would have changed in five six months so I think for for a lot of people really have to they have to really look at their businesses and ask realistically is there an opportunity to revive and sustain revive and sustain both is very demanding and if you feel that you don't have that answer don't wait too much get your business valued find the right kind of buyer or approach the right buyer through a consulting firm like us or you can even go to a maybe industry player who you know who is better off you know and would probably have interest on your asset and you can really create kind of a structure with him so this is what was today every week we take up one subject and talk about that I will be more than happy to hear if you have any particular topic which you want us to cover largely business x is a is a platform which helps people connect opportunities connect with investors we are a resale platform where we would bring in companies who want to sell value your business and then sell the business so any of these requirements you have you can reach out to Sonali and she leads the me business x so I will now bring in Sonali if there is any questions for me I will be more than happy to answer thank you so much for another wonderful session and we have quite a few questions lined up with us yeah so the first question we have is from Mr. David that does he's asking for a startup or newly started business does the historical performance matter what should be the key drivers for valuation of these businesses startup there will be no historical background so they have to look at a newly startup business has to there would be no historical performance historical performance can come from the industry peers I mean if you have similar kind of industry while peers if you have and if you have something which is very compelling which you can clearly say from a consumer demand viewpoint or a or a or any kind of a clear visibility of the future cash flows that would be the big driver I think most of the startups have come in from mindset of disruption second consumer shift how you're able to shift the customer wherever they are using something and they would shift to you and how fast that shift can happen or they are able to create a new customer base which never existed but there was a inherent demand which you can perceive to demonstrate and this say like people would use this in coming time like zoom was a classic example it was it was a platform created for a future consumption which has come even more faster than people started using right but it is clearly predicted for a future way of doing anything any interaction so it was a platform which was for a clearly designed for future consumption but it fast-speeded it and adaptability and you know that is very very clear so anything which you have which can demonstrate that would create a as I said I mean end of the day it all is going to be brought down to economic performance of the business and that you need to somewhere demonstrate startup rather it is a it is it is better for startups because people don't ask the historic data they actually go for the future projection and that's why startups get easy money sometimes the businesses which are already running they find very difficult to justify investors because investors will go with their historic data and historic data would sometimes doesn't match the future they are trying to say I mean if you're growing last five years by eight nine percent and you suddenly come and tell the investors you want to grow by 30 percent 35 percent you don't want to buy it unless and there is a significant way or change of business you have already done so startups I think it has a much greater chance to really demonstrate that another question on very similar lines is how important is valuation for early state startups to investors really give it importance while deciding whether to invest or not so investors I mean startups or scale up companies start up and scale up is different startup is something which is its ideation stage has to see is commercial success scale up is something which is has seen the commercial success and now wants to go to the next level next orbit of growth I would feel that this time is not for startups while startups interesting ideas would always be welcome and always would but this is a time for scale ups this is a very good time for scale ups the next question we have is valuation of all businesses would certainly be less in this covid phase should I still get my business valued or wait for things to get better and then get it very good question and very very good question so you should get valuation done right now but you you don't have to take this five months of performance your valuation should be done from a pre covid numbers and and you need to keep this pause phase and do a little bit of a cash flow correction when you do the overall valuation structure so I will take the numbers of February or last year structures and create the valuation on that and and unless I reach that same number of number I'll keep that period as a pause phase so and if there is some significant cash burn in this period can be taken into the accountability on the final valuation but I don't want to take numbers current numbers would be ridiculous to take numbers the next question we have is how often should I get my business value I think you should the valuation should be done one time in the structure and then you need to revise that valuation analyzed and visit your valuation whenever you see a critical change happening critical change would be industry change you know or any kind of a significant competition landscape changed or some some micro or a micro dynamics in the economy is telling you to really see your valuation so the next question we have is the person saying my business has faced major loss during this time and I'm not able to understand how to go forward if I plan to take a next set buy with someone buy a business which is already incurring loss so this is yeah so this is good question so fundamentally I want to really define that today almost if I really put general figure 70% businesses would have been I mean current time looking at the current numbers monthly cycle would look NPAs non-performing assets and and 30% would still be profitable I mean if they are which I would doubt so if it is a short-term impact then I would again say pause period you don't want to really look at it while we can soften the valuation I'll do then pre-covid valuation numbers I'll soften it up so that I give that breather for somebody to who's are buying it can cover this pause period but I don't want to discount my valuation too much because doing it but if it is a if it is a long-term impact of loss then also every asset is ready to sell you know I call it a profitable assets have a very different approach non-profitable assets have a different approach in non-profitable assets again I will have to go deeper on the SAS principle what is the strategic value is there a strategic value sometimes the location is a value say you are a retail then location itself is a value your maybe you're sitting on some older rentals which can give me arbitrage on that or something else which is very important then what are the assets there in the business and what is the subscribers which means that you know how many subscribers are consumer whatever consumer base and I can I sell something else to that consumer base so all that deeper things one has to really understand but but I feel that if there is some businesses and I see every single day you know businesses coming to us and and which are losing money and and and entrepreneurs are emotionally drained so to say because they one emotionally invested so obviously they these times they're emotionally drained and but this is this is a time to detach yourself and and exit businesses in one business particularly I stretched it along and that caused a big big losses for us because I felt that if I do it then I lose whatever I invested but eventually had to so if you just carry it up for a longer period more you multiply your losses and that's not good that's not good because especially if you have other businesses who start damaging the other businesses or even your time because if if you have to even write off that business and start something else maybe that's better because you can put some productive energy in there and look at something which more value you're meaningful rather than investing on something which is not making any sense for you absolutely so the next question we have is a personalized question from Mr Mukundan he's saying one of my tech companies is three years young it has a revenue of NCR it's profit making and has a 30% EBITDA all from one customer and I need to scale up now no debt no IP per se can a ballpark free money valuation of five times the revenue or 20 times the EBITDA over the next three years projection is it reasonable yeah yeah so absolutely I think what either you have done it yourself or somebody has given you but numbers are absolutely right four to five times revenue or a 715% to 20% EBITDA is the multiples which normally work on a tech kind of companies which which essentially have that I would be seriously looking at the the capability of that customer to stay with you that would be the only risk I would see in the business because and how how that book is very strong and and committed and if if I don't see that commitment in the book that that same single customer because a business is just based on one customer you know I sold one company which was having only five customers and five customers they used to do their HR HR some kind of work but and they lost three auto lamp by by no time you know we were in the still phase of valuation and I think they were rushing it because they wanted to they were having some internal signals they lost three of them and there was nothing left in the business I mean there were two only two companies and billing significantly changed and went down to 30 35% of revenues and hence they had to cut down a lot cost and the negative growth started happening so I would see your business is fabulous 30% performance 30% EBITDA 10 crores it's a easy easy case of a you know good valuation very very good valuation I would even if a conservative stated with three crore was a profit at a beta level then even if I take this at a very conservative which is a 50-50 crore kind of a value business but the risk is that you're sitting on one single customer and and from a risk viewpoint if you see somebody putting 50 crores then and these are normally not so much of a asset heavy businesses and they're rarely be asset like businesses and 50 crores is going purely on a valuation and if for reasons this customer goes away one house how interesting is the business which to acquire a new customer and second is you know the risk is very high so I would write say one de-risk yourself put more customers in place and lock your customers for a longer period and if you're able to demonstrate that then the valuation is absolutely reasonable. The same person has also asked us to share an email of an advisor to speak to about raising equity from a PE for a tech company after strength in the eye. Another question was I want to sell a food business before estimating price can you tell me should I consider in general yeah you should you should consider almost as I said I mean every business can sell it's just a question of valuation a question of what is the right valuation and please reach out to Sonali and if you want to reach out to me I will put my email ID you can just send a quick mail to me and and I'll be more than happy to answer thank you very much thanks for your time today and we'll continue to bring in you know our fresh ideas on on these three subjects of investing scaling and and valuation thank you very much thanks very much thank you so much Gaurav sir thank you so much for your time and for another wonderful session thank you to all our attendees for being a part of this session we really hope you were able to add some value to your lives through this session and we'll see you next Saturday at 3 p.m. for another session on which will be on investing in this business growth journey thank you so much