 So it's my great pleasure to welcome Linda and Alain here, with all of those chairs. Yes, thank you. I will say that Linda Hayford is a dancer, choreographer, also co-director with the collective fair of the CCN in Rennes. And that Alain, a hurricane, is a hip-hop dance artist, killing from Borough Prince, Haiti, and based here in New York City. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Hello. Hi, Linda. Hi, Alain. How are you? Very good. Good. There was a great conversation here just now, you know, and I think I'm going to share my journey with you, and I think it will answer a lot of questions you have, and a lot of curiosity you have, you know? There's a big thing about access here that we don't have, especially deeply in the black community, you know? Even if we see that access, we're not welcome to it. It's not that we cannot do it, we're just not welcome to it. There's never a time we think we cannot do it. It is just that we are not welcome to it, you know? So there's a big difference in that, that I don't think this experience other people can experience that. So this is an experience that we can't really express, you know, because it's not going to be understood. And I hope the way that I just said is helping it to be understood at this moment. So when I share with you my journey, you can understand that also even without the access, my way will still be what I would like it to be, and so I think academia don't have space for that, you know? Because sometimes there's a way that is put in academia, also at dance schools, it forces everyone to think this way is the only way, you know, and it's almost enforced. So there's some people that don't even, when they don't have access to this academia, they have the passion and they still go for it, you know? And the way that they go for it, there are still many pathways that no one else knows exist, if that makes sense, you know? So when we try to structure something, especially art, it keeps it at one place in a one way, when art doesn't even mean that in the first place, if that makes sense, you know? And so my journey is I love dance, you know? Maybe I didn't know a particular style, because sometimes because of the this is better than this, or this is more palatable, if that's the word, than this, or this is professional and this is not. So the value of certain art forms is diminished, you know? Because maybe it can look like it's something trendy with no value, because sometimes things aren't taken as seriously as other things. So it's the way art forms aren't taken seriously as other art forms, you know? So since I love this art form, I'm going to stick to it. And even though it doesn't have any representative within the art form, yes, I see some people in those other art forms that looks like me, and I appreciate them to the fullest, or going for that path also, because they love that art form. I do too. I love art, but there's a particular art that I gravitate to, you know? And that also should be honored. And it helps me also be open to see other arts. And so most of the people in my world street dance, hip-hop, locking, popping, voguing, whacking, and many others flexing, a lot of other styles that exist within the black community, you know? It's not valued as much. But I understand the discipline of these things, they come with their own discipline, they come with their own specific techniques. The difference in black form is that I'm going to have to speak in a very artistic way. The art is the form, and the movement are just structure, if that makes sense. So the art is able to construct, reconstruct, deconstruct. And even if that there is a form, the form can still remain within the art, you know? So that makes our dances a little bit more what we call free. So it can sometimes look like there is no form. But when you are raised in a particular culture, you understand what that form is. So in that culture has never been in academia, because it's never been valued to be in academia, so it is not understood, you know? So when we are speaking of bringing the people that live these cultures to teach it, to perform it, to show it, we can truly experience this thing, and at its highest form, you know? Because even the highest form of it is not known, because it's so unfamiliar. That's why there is no I for when someone is a beginner or not. Like if I'm watching ballet, I right away know when someone is a beginner. When I'm watching someone that's not a beginner, I know, because it's represented so well, and so carefully as well. And it's protected, but our art form doesn't have those access to be in that way. So when we are invited, sometimes maybe it's hard to find the right and correct people to invite, because if it all look the same, then there is no knowing, you know? Because if you don't understand something, it's going to all look exactly the same for you, you know? And for me, in a way to be able to find these particular people, this, including Tatiana, this happening here is a long journey for us. We just kept going, you know what I mean? Because we believe in it so much, because we also know, because we appreciate all other art forms, and we are living our art form, because we love the art period, so because we love the art period, it helps us to see other art forms and appreciate it, you know? But I don't think we are ever put in that consideration of art form, you know? We are mostly put in the consideration of pretty, nice, cool, you know? And so even, I've seen the contemporary world, even the ballet world, is using a lot of our movements that really increase their value, increase their level as well, but it's still, so okay, you see us, you see something, but it's still not valued, you know? So I think it's important to, if you see us, come to us as well, so you can really find what it is, because our culture doesn't just come with an away, it comes with a lifestyle, which is not something that you can really put in academia. Like, a lot of conservatories have tried it, but have failed because they follow the system that is for a ballet, for a contemporary, for something, you know? And they've also tried, okay, let's say you go to parties, you gonna see what it is? No, it's so much more than just going to one party, it's so much more than just seeing it in front of a mirror, it's so much more than repetition, you know? It's a lived experience, which live a little bit more room for experience and freedom, you know? And so I'm trying to be very careful with my words. And so when we are just saying, come here, there's like no understanding really what we are bringing, you know? So if we say, I want this here, let me go see what it is. So then when I bring it here, I really have an idea, even though I don't even know what it is yet, you know? I have a, there's a familiarity, there's an idea, and when it comes to, like I love the knowing what we don't know bit of the conversation, it's a lot of, I choose what I don't know, when what I could know is right here, you know? So for me, through my journey, I'm learning all of this, you know? I had to make my own way, and what I've accepted sometimes, I'll say sometimes, because I'm not for it, but I've accepted it, is that a certain popularity or certain name will get you to be valued. So then I'm like, got you, I'm going to work for that, but that's not my value, you understand? So a lot of dancers that can be in a certain caliber are taught a certain value that stray them away from their thing that they truly want to do in a way, and how are we going to protect that in an academia setting, you know, so they can actually do the thing. And the thing about dance and movement, because you practice your movement, your, it is possible to start taking on other movement, because now you're understanding body language, you know, and that's what choreography is, choreography is not a style, you know? It's just a collective movement, but because we all train a certain way, we can kind of execute those movements, you know? But street dance has such specificity to it, we can see when something is being kind of done or something like, if I'm a hip hop dancer and I do choreography and I put a certain ballet movement in it, but I'm not a ballet trainee, a ballet dancer is going to be like, you know, what is that? And it's also disrespectful, but when it comes to street dance, that is easily done. Something that's not valued is actually valued, because I'm putting it in the thing that I think is more valuable, you know? But why do I need that if this is not valuable, you understand? So in my journey, I got to, okay, let me train in a way that I can execute some movement that are not my form a certain way, you know? Like, one thing about street dance, even if I was teaching, I would, I am teaching, if I was teaching in academia the first thing I would say, we don't, we don't restrict your body. This is street dance, like every other dance have a kind of restriction to a particular body, you know? And street dance, we know the form which is the art, right? So it enables you to dance any form of street dance because it's not restricted to your body. Like, a lot of my ballet dancer friends that ballet, the way that ballet is taught is not for their body. And street dancers, we come, like, we are so educated on the body because we are finding ourselves through these movements that we understand that, oh, not everyone's body is similar at all. So you actually destroy your body when you try to do something that your body's not even capable because it's not form in this way, you know? And so there's certain values in street dance that are so important that are not put up front. And that's why, like, certain ways are just not for us because it's not here, because there's no representative actually for us. So it can't be created unless we have proper representation, you know? It's not just because this has already happened. I'm black, I'm here, which is great, and it's going to keep happening. But there's absolutely no representation for something else, and it can both coexist, and all the art form can also coexist together, and it also gives room for other art forms that we still have to be welcomed, you know? It's like, should we pick and choose the art forms or should we allow ourselves to be open to all of it and its culture? Because street dance has a culture which is not only bought, it cannot really be bought just in the studio. It also has to be experienced and lived, you know? Because that's the core of it all. And how can we encourage students to go and do that? We can't take that away from it because that's the magic of it all, you know? So my journey, being a street dancer, also keeping myself as a choreographic memory dancer, you know? And then daring to go in certain places to show my dance like it has happened for her, it has happened for Tatiana, and in the Europe world they're more welcome to street dance now than here. Here this is new, you know? I just came from developing a Soul Train on Broadway which is 90% street dance, you know? And it's the first of its kind for the first time in 2023, you understand? And it's just like even our stories don't even matter or it's not important enough to be on a Broadway stage or it's not important enough to be in a concert stage, you know? Also our art form is not important enough to be on those spaces. It's in the space for the first time in 2023, you know? And there's many Broadway shows like Hamilton that uses these art forms, but there's no one of me in it. And yes, they have black people all over Hamilton, but it's the ones that doesn't have the educations and this art form that they're doing. It's like, they're black, yay! But do they understand and know? Do you understand? We have to have the proper representation, not just representation, and they both can coexist, you know? And that means for everywhere, the schools, the shows, the spaces that are there. And I'll let you go. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Ellen. Ellen, there was so many things that you opened up that I forgot now. But I will start with what comes in my mind now about also the representations and how different it can be here in the U.S. and in Europe and in France also because as we said before, they're political, economical questions that gives the opportunity for dancers, artists to project themselves. One of the questions that I've been thinking to myself for many years now in the U.S. is how come the culture that I've been growing up with in France, because I was born and raised in France, both my parents are from Ghana, so they were really influenced by American influence, music, lifestyle, whatever. So in my house apartment, it was pretty much America, you know? Not my neighbor, my house. So when I started to go in studios and I'm not from academic, I didn't learn in school dance. Anything like that, it brought me something else to say afterwards. Yeah, growing up in this, meeting it in studios where people were practicing what was called hip-hop, blocking, popping, whatever. In music, like funk music, stuff like that, that for us was our parents that were listening to this and we were listening to New Jack or whatever, my brother and I, my brother and sisters and I, which was not the music in school or in my other friends' houses. So there was already, like, you know, something that was, you know? But going to the studio where people were actually practicing in this world and starting to go to battles, to events, to see, to meet, like, the pioneers that come from America because France has a huge respect for pioneers. So the pioneers that were famous here was the first one invited in France to all the big international events so that they could stay and teach in France. So that the first, also, the pioneers that are French, they came here to have the information to go deep, to meet the sources, the pioneers here. So when they were inventing friends, they also invite them to France so that many people can access them and talk to them and exchange with them. So, and I'm really talking about the community now. So there are many layers to this. When you say that, you're talking about pioneers that have many years of experience and now they're teaching, they're teaching in the U.S. maybe, but they're also teaching abroad, but they're also learning how to teach by being called to teach because hip-hop has as many courants ways as there are dancers in the culture. So there is no one way to do it, but there are still basics and common agreement on some techniques, basics, because we want also to build something that is recognizable, you know, that you can understand, that you can recognize and say, oh, I've seen this aesthetic, I've seen this technique and can even compare dancers say, oh, I think he is better because, you know, his form or his technique, you know, we want also this to happen, but we also have this importance that in hip-hop identity is really important as in your disability, your body, your flexibility or not, whatever is part of you and we really thought early to be looking in this area of what is your component as a human being, as a mover. So this is where every dancer could be a school, you know, an entire way of approaching dance, but what I like in this culture, in this identity, in this representation as in, like, build your own confidence through your own body, movement, language, sensations, is how you can build your own knowledge and methodology as we spoke earlier and the tools that can be important to share with other people so that they can do the same thing, not my thing, go through my tools that I can try to make universal so that they can catch something to be able to develop their own tools. You know, this kind of mindset more than you have to move your body like I just taught you, you know. So for me, this is also where I completely understand from having a lot of influence from America, I understand how it can, it's still a struggle here that go back to racial questions and also growing up in France where the race is completely different, you know. We talked about it yesterday. In France, the community can be only the hood or being Muslim. It doesn't always have to do with the color of your skin because you can be Senegalese, from Mali, from Cameroon, from Ghana. It's really different in France, which in the United States sometimes it's not that different. I mean, black is being a community and I completely respect and understand that. But in France, this is different. So my traditional dances, and we all understand that in Africa there are so many roots and we get this. But in France, like my parents came from Ghana, not my great, great, great, great parents. So my house was different from my neighbor that was from Mali because our parents that come from Africa were here in France. They are the reason why I grew up in France. It's really different than trying to go back to your roots when you grew up in America and your parents were born here and your great parents were born here, and then you have to go back, back, back, back. So the community is different because of also this kind of question. For me, it's not only the question of race that brings all this maybe misunderstanding or misrepresentations. It can be many different crossing ideas that stop the exchange or not making creating space where those questions can be developed. So I want to say that because I feel like we also have our own responsibility to say, and you said earlier, and Tatiana said it, even if we don't have access, like academic access to what we want to develop as an artist, we're still doing it because this is culture, this is hip-hop, you do it. You don't wait for this beautiful studio, this beautiful whatever, you need to do it, you need to do it. That's maybe one of the differences is it's a necessity and this is what for us is driving any creativity, any expression, any research to work, exchange, talk with someone, eat with someone because it's culture. So for me, this necessity, it's our responsibility to put in front of the door, which means if I'm called to say, we want you to do this, I'm going to ask why you want me to do this? Do you want someone from hip-hop or do you want Linda Heifer to do this? What do you know about my work? Now I have this kind of reflection. When I was younger, of course not. We're just happy to do something that it was in a place where other people could see it. But if at that time I would be asked, why do you move like this? I would not be that clear. I had to teach myself, so I had to through my practice understand what I was doing, trying to understand it and lock it and then find my own words to say it. Also because this is our responsibility to not be defined by the other people and not to be okay with what is going to be out talking about your craft, your work, your artistry. So for me, it's also something that we have, and we are doing it. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist. I'm saying that to be conscious that we are the one who will be saying what we're doing. We have to be clear with this so that people can access it and say, okay, I didn't know that exists, but I want you to be there because what you were saying, like I understand I want to meet you in what you're defending so that it also clarifies why people are contacted to work with or to be there in certain places. So I said that because I've also had the experience where people wanted to work with me because I was a black female representing hip hop. And sorry, but I also don't want to be that. I'm sorry, it's like I'm that because I love it. I am myself. I have what I love in hip hop and dance, but I don't want you to make me only this because thanks to all of this, I'm trying to create something that resembles all my other influences that doesn't necessarily come from hip hop or even dance. And this is me being a human and putting my humanity in my craft. So you also have to give me space, but I need to be clear when I say that to other people also. So it's not just being rebel saying I don't want to be this, but I don't want to be this because I'm actually working on this and this come from this. And I can like share with you other things that you might not like and it's okay. But you can still understand the most honest part of my work. And to me, this is where necessity is filled with honesty. And that is what you share with the world and people can access to this or not. They want to see it or not. But I think this is also what can bring hip hop culture to the level of valued expertise that exists in other any art form. It's not about ballet, contemporary dance is art form, which means we can have the same discussion with any people that do any kind of art. Each and every one of us built our own expertise being precise on what we are looking at, on how you practice, how you worked on something and be like knowing that if you see a ballet piece, even if you cannot do it. Like right now you could not do the same movement, but you can read it. You can read how someone is nourishing the movement, how someone is fundamental and really good in its technique, aligned or not. We can read it because we build our own consciousness about body function. This is really important and I really like what you said because for me, the science of how your body function is also, to me all those questions are not to be answered as in I also have to be an expert in science. It's more what do I need in science to take my own practice to another level. So I need to know how my body functions, to know what my possibilities are from what I want to do with my dance. So I also can create my own workout to how I want to use my body for my dance. It's not just I know how all the body functions. Okay, but what does it do to my dance? Because I'm someone who maybe goes always on the floor. Do I need to know how to jump? I don't know, but how do you pick, not pick as in just go over, you pick something but you go deep into this because you want to have the same depth in different questions in your practice. So for me, thinking this mindset, I'm going back to this mindset, is how you can bring this accessibility, this acknowledgement of what are the components of hip hop culture, is maybe other discussion that we can have in any conversation for me. This is what I'm trying to go to. And I understand that it's, you cannot bring people to understand 50 years of culture. Of course not. I mean, we can try. Of course, we say come with us at the club. Of course, yes, why not? I mean, but you can't. And it's okay. And I, like, even if I say, like, I grew up in my apartment like this, I wasn't in America. Like, when I go out here, I see everyone just putting music so loud in the street. Like, I'm in Harlem. I love this street. So I'm like, I love Harlem. So, like, people just go on and put some music. In France, it's not like this. We have fees if you put music like this loud. And like, it's not, you're not free to do whatever, you know. So this here is lifestyle that even people that I can see walking around with music loud like this, they're not dancers. They don't care about your craft. They don't care about going to practice and understanding your body and artists. They just live like this. So you cannot bring everyone to understand how deeper culture is in any cultures. And we're all mixed in every ways. So I cannot teach you how in Ghana it's done. I can introduce you to it. You will never be living like in Ghana. And even I can't because I grew up in France. So we also have to be like, it's okay not to know all these parts. It's okay that you have questions. And let's have questions. And also to say that I don't, I don't master contemporary and ballet questions either. So it's okay that we just meet and question each other and try to go to like to find spaces where we resonate that can lift everyone up more than saying, you don't know what I do. I don't know what you do. You don't understand that. And I don't understand that. And why is it like expertise for me can be a question of like centered question where you can look at someone say, you know your thing, you know, and that's amazing. And so we hear knowing what we know and contribute to something maybe bigger or wider or deeper. I don't know. Yeah, five minutes. Yeah, that's a question. Thank you both for what you shared. I just feel the need to add to what you're saying because I feel the problem is to meet my perspective deeper, a little deeper, the complexity of it because I do feel it has everything to do with race. Unfortunately, when it comes to these problems of recognizing each other, that's that comes from a power system that's already put in place already not allowing people to know how to be open to others, know how to read others, different cultures. It was set to recognize only certain forms in general. And until we are acknowledging that that thing that we have to deconstruct from within to understand that, okay, we don't have the tools to actually be able to receive those and the specific reason for it is that power system that is in place. And that's why we talk about systemic racism, which actually feeding us a certain way to perceive the others in a way which create that endless oppression in life but also within the arts. Until we do that, I feel like this conversation will be endless because I believe in everything that you said to the core. The thing is I feel like before to even get to that, to get to that reality of just having a regular conversation and recognize me the same way I recognize you, it will take for the oppressor to be able to see that they are actually oppressing and they're not able to see because of that internalized bias that is within. And that has been put to all of us, unfortunately. So for me, it feels like education, yes, we always say education is key, but the educating ourselves in recognizing that, yes, we actually don't know other cultures. We are around it constantly. We see it, but actually you don't know me, I don't know you. You know, having that space that humbleness to say I don't know, you don't know anything about me. You don't know about my culture and whatever you know in your structure and that is recognized as the elite forms is not able to read others. In a equal way, if that's the right way to say, I'm not sure if I'm clear with that. So it just, it takes that, it's like, I feel like my question, I mean, in general is like, how do we find ways in space to rewired ourselves in general? And we talking about 50 years of hip hop, but to me, hip hop didn't start 50 years ago for sure. When we think about hip hop, you think about the starting point was slavery. And to think about that lineage that led to the most contemporary form that black people created in the States, which is hip hop and so on, and it's continuing. And just to understand that being here, people recreated their Africanism here. Basically, it's all traditions that has been recreated here. Like you were talking about different, we talk, we're thinking, we can think about different tribes having different dance styles and stuff. And it's the same within the States, but it's not seen, but it's there. It's happening. Like for me, literally, I go to different States. I see different tribes and different ways of talking through their art. But it's, so it's there. The root of the United States culture is rooted within that, that Africanism that has been recreated, but yet is not seen. So the reason why it's not seen, but it's so present, it's there all the time. The way people talk, the way they dress, the commercials, it's there, the sound, everything, it's there. It's not seen. That shows that the problem comes from that systemic racism that is in place that doesn't allow people to see unless you actively decide to deconstruct it. And then we can meet each other halfway then, only then. But until then, I feel like it doesn't seem real. It feels like it's an endless conversation. This conversation I'm having, I have, people have had it before me and it's continuous and I feel like repeating this thing is like, well, let's just talk about the real problem. And yes, he has everything to do with race, unfortunately. Worldwide. Yeah, this is why I was saying that I was not, I didn't grow up here. So I don't, I know some stuff, you know, of course, we all know some things. But to live here and to be facing all this walls and stuff, for me, it's different. I don't know how it is here to be daily trying to develop an artist. Something artistic here. But to go back to my first thought when I started it was the questioning is how come hip-hop culture that has spread that much was now, like for example, in France now you can have a career, you can project yourself as being an author, and which in the United States, I don't know, it's a question actually, I'm not saying that I know that it's not happening, but I don't, I'm not surrounded or I don't know dancers that have this much experience being New York, like United, like USA dancer, that have been recognized as an author, you know, more than being working with the best singers or best musical or whatever. But to be like signing a piece, many pieces, many things, I don't know them. I met one of them yesterday, Camille A. Brown. I don't know her, but I've met so many amazing dancers, different generations from the United States. So I had this question in my mind where you come to France, you see hip-hop companies that are led by hip-hop dancers that never learned dance in any schools, but they're choreographers, like I am now, and I've been inviting into Academy to give workshops for what I was actually doing and not just being giving like hip-hop classes, whatever you want, but from the craft that I made. And to meet this kind of approach and partnership or connection is really important and it exists in France. But my question is, does it exist, happen in the United States? And Tatiana told us that not really and not at all. So for me, it's just opening this conversation, but I will never be able to say that it's the only thing that is a friend, like a break to our development generally. Maybe here, I really understand because it's huge and it comes from here, so it's deep, of course. But I can't say that there are no other reasons that are not just racial, you know. And that, as we always do, to find ways, it's a bit complicated to say that because I don't have your reality here. Rafael, last, and then I have a question. Have you ever danced together? So if you dance, no, will it be the first time? No, this is the thing. You mean dance as work on stage or just dance? Just dancing, like just dance. And the second question, do you need music to dance, to improvise now? Should we dance? Who said that? You. Did I say that? Maybe you did. I think it's really nice to do that, but I think we're also not warmed up at all. So, you know, also this thing of hip-hop dance, so let's go. We're over 30, we need eight hours sleep. So just to have a career, we need to be like, okay, if we need to dance. I said, we said that it might happen if it's something that it's building up, but also to be okay that we're not just all the time explosive. Movements have meaning, connection has moments, like, oh, it's something also. It's not just we like music and we dance. Or we can have that, but you will have one percent of whatever we feel like, you know? Yes, I think this is a point for us to pause just to make sure that everyone has time to get some food. Thank you so much, Linda and Ale for your talk.