 Hello. Now it's working. OK. So women of OpenStack is a group. We have 11% of the attendees, this conference, up from, I think, the three people that went to the first one I attended, which was Boston. I know Anne was there. And I don't know who else. It was kind of lonely. Anyhow, what we're going to be talking about now is we're really kind of getting away from the first panel, which we did in Paris, which was kind of talking about the overt discrimination that happens with women and minorities. And the last one in Vancouver was called Standing Tall Room. And it was about empowering women and minorities to really have the confidence to contribute. And this time, I'm pushing back onto the audience, which is that subtle bias and talking about how can we overcome that. So with that, let's get started. So I'm going to introduce our panelists. And starting with, roll that. OK. Yeah, so you were random, weren't you? My name is Nithya Ruff. And I'm with Sandisk. And I run the open source strategy office at Sandisk. So everything to do with engagement with OpenStack, Linux Foundation, et cetera. I also sit on the board of the Women's Innovation Network at Sandisk. So it's an affinity group that's all about empowering women at Sandisk to achieve and to be engaged in the company. My name is Jessica Marillo. I'm the vice president of strategy for systems at IBM. What that means is I help clients with their IT infrastructure building products and roadmaps so they can have more robust, sustainable enterprise data centers, clouds, private clouds, public clouds, hybrid clouds. I'm Karen Levenstein. I work at Rackspace. I manage the private cloud documentation team, the US half of it. And that's writing and developing documentation specifically for the private cloud powered OpenStack product. So why don't we get started on the. Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry. That was subtle. That's subtle bias for you. Hi, I'm Courtney Ferry. I work with Carpathia. We're a managed hosting company. Caller's also a cloud operator. I am a senior solutions engineer. Slash cloud architect. And pre-sales. I work with customers to understand what their problems are, what they're doing today, and then architect and design new cloud infrastructure that my company then hosts for them and manages for them. So I do design work and document that for my build team to build. Excellent. So as you can see, we have a range of technical and business luminaries on the panel. So I'm going to take the first question, which is why don't we talk about what is the definition of subtle bias for you? And you want to take it, Jessica? Sure. So to me, bias is learned behavior. And I'm going to say something that may or may not be popular. I don't think bias is bad because think about it. It's learned behavior over time. It's said that adults make complex decisions in the range of between $35,000 to $50,000 a day. Your brain is processing dozens of Boolean decisions every second. So I mean, you basically couldn't get out of bed in the morning if you didn't have biases, right? You couldn't figure out what we're going to wear. You couldn't figure out what time you're going to get up. You couldn't figure out what you're going to eat for breakfast and some sort of bias to help cull down some of those choices. But what we need to do is understand not only that we have biases, but what are they and how can we make them work for us versus work against us? Thanks so much, Jessica. She's absolutely right. Bias is something that helps us. So if we know that tigers are dangerous, we avoid them. And if we know that every time I put my hand in hot water, I get burnt. We avoid them. So it is very beneficial. But then there's one side of bias where we make instant snap decisions based on either past history or conditioning or messages or whatever we received, which then precludes us from really giving that person or that thing of the benefit of the doubt. So we kind of make these snap judgments and we've already kind of classified them and put them into a box or something, which then prevents us from really engaging with that person or that item. Again, agreeing with both of you. That's the great thing about being able to go first. But you could be not next. I could be. That's right. One of the things about bias and getting into what we're talking about, which is a subtle bias though, I think a lot of our learned behaviors we are unaware of. And I think a lot of times our biases are actually in opposition to what we cognitively know to be correct. And I think sometimes we would be better served to inspect them more. And I know we're going to end up getting into examples of that through this whole thing here. Yeah. Everybody else got all the good stuff in. But yeah, I agree. And I think the thing about bias, I was thinking actually on the way over here about the distinction between bias and prejudice. And I think there is a distinction. And I think prejudice operates on a more conscious level. Bias operates much more in a subconscious level. It is not necessarily malicious. And it's so much of a learned behavior, I think that it's actually even more challenging to confront and to work with than outright prejudice. Because even when you've identified it, it's still back there. Even when you've identified that it's a thing that is happening, you really have to be super conscious of it. But I think we'll talk more about exactly how we do that. Right. So I'm actually going to give an example, which is that studies have shown that if a resume is handed in and it has the name Bob Smith, and the identical resume is submitted with, let's say, Jane Smith, Bob Smith will be rated higher than Jane Smith. And that's been shown over and over again. So that is an example of subtle bias. And what is it causing it? It's the same resume. There was a psychologist a few years ago who started life as a man and then became a woman. And he actually discovered he was in a party once where somebody came up and said, you know, there was somebody with a similar name who did great work. But I don't know what's happened to him. There you go. So it's been said that humans make decisions. And we're talking about the snap judgment. And based on the first three minutes of meeting a person, so during the interview situation where it's a high pressure situation where you need to, you know, you don't want to, but you end up making some decisions. So what are the ways we can counter this tendency that humans have? And I'll start with Karen this time. Well, the resume example brings up a pretty good, just a really simple thing that can be done is when resumes are submitted to, say, a hiring manager to be evaluated, anonymizing them is actually a pretty powerful tool. Just taking off name identifying information, it gives, it basically removes or reduces the chance of that one particular bias based on gender or ethnicity or anything else that would have been given away by a name. It's a very small thing, but it is just one thing that can be done as just part of the pipeline and intake process. So a lot of times when we meet people and you start talking to them, you start asking them questions, we sort of tend to ask the same questions over and over, you know, what do you do? Where do you live? We ask these horizontal questions. And you kind of sort of listen to them. And you kind of sort of don't. And you're kind of sort of thinking about the next question you're going to ask. And so you get this sort of flat impression and you're not changing any of those first three-minute impressions that you've made of your own, of those things that you're making based on your own biases. So something to try. Ask a question. Listen to the answer. Ask the next question based on the information that you got and that next answer. And go deeper into that and actually learn something about that person. You know, OK, who cares if you don't know where they're from? If you've asked where they work, well, how do you like that job? Oh, how is that project you're working on get deeper into something to really learn something about them instead of or shall we? That's a great idea to kind of let the answers lead you to the next question rather than having a set of questions. From a corporate perspective, what we are trying to do to avoid this kind of bias is to look at capability tests. So look at capabilities rather than the name of the person or the college they went to or where they're from. The second thing, I mean, we've all seen and love shows like The Voice, which is a blind audition where you really don't see the artist. So you're judging them purely based on The Voice and not based on how they look or whether they're male or female or black or white, et cetera. And there's an interesting study. The San Francisco Symphony apparently used to have practically an all-male symphony. And when they started doing blind auditions, they found that they were getting many more women into the orchestra. And I just happened to attend the opening season. And it is true. There's a lot of women now in the San Francisco Symphony. So I think it's going back to all of your points, removing the name, removing the school, removing any attribution and kind of purely judging the person based on capability. There's an interesting aspect to that story. When they started doing the blind auditions, they found that they still had a misbalance. And then they had people start removing their shoes when they were walking in the room. They found out that they realized that even though they were doing it blind and they weren't telling the judges whether or not it was a man or a woman, they were making the judgment based on hearing women's high heels. And it was two steps. I think I can totally get that. Yeah, that particular decision to go blind started with the, I believe it was the Berlin Philharmonic. And there was a bias about women playing certain instruments. They play violins, but they don't play trumpets. So there's a woman, a pretty famous woman who's a, she's a trumpet player, in fact. And she kept failing the audition, but she always won the blind auditions. And she kept suing the Berlin Philharmonic. And she finally got the position. And now that's the standard to do all blind auditions. So another thing you might not like to hear as engineers, emotional intelligence and accepting diverse people into your team is critical to your success. Do you seek that out? Now, studies have shown for years that diverse teams make better products, they are more successful, and that you should strive to have people surrounding you who don't look like you, who don't think like you, who don't act like you. And how many times do we embrace that? Let's get five different people from five different teams together to come build something. No, it's let's go get Joe down the hall or Susie down the hall, somebody who's really close. So, you know, my advice is make yourself uncomfortable because you can't change anybody else. I know, I've tried, I've really tried and I failed. And if anyone knows how to do it, let me know because I have two teenage girls at home. And I haven't figured that yet. Yeah, really can't change them. Yeah, yeah, I have a college age son. Yeah, so I mean, I can influence, but I can't change them. So you can only change yourself. So by understanding how you can change to be inclusive of people who have viewpoints that are different than yours is only gonna make you more successful. And in here, we're kind of focusing on gender diversity, but there's all different kinds, right? There's, we've talked about gender, but there's cultural, there's race, there's religious, there's sexual orientation, there's age. There's body type, right? So don't just think it's simple because it's not. And so that's why you constantly have to check in with yourself to find out, am, why am I making this snap decision about this person or this situation? And it's not, let's have a subtle bias day where I just sit in a room and kind of think about all the interactions I've had with people. That's probably not the best use of your time. But situationally, right? Think about, okay, I made that decision, but was that the right decision? Could it have been made better if, you know, why did I make that decision right then? Would it have been better if I included two or three other people who had a different idea? Or did I think that I was gonna slow things down and, you know, I don't wanna spend extra time? Well, trust me, the extra time's worth it. Yeah, excuse me. No, I agree. So what I'd like to talk about a little bit now are some of the biases we see every day. And confront them, because I think one of the takeaways here is that one of the ways to address and get away from subtle bias, because we can't really get away from our biases. Because as we said earlier, it's how we live. I mean, humans are great at categorizing things. We make snap judgments thousands of times a day. But it's important to, once we understand those biases, then we can make decisions in the light of that. So I'd like to ask the panel, what are some of the biases that we encounter every day and that we might not be aware of? So I will start. Thank you, I'm happy to take that. I was at Grace Hopper just a couple of weeks ago, and the CEO of, I forget which company, it may have been, it doesn't matter. She indicated that she was invited to this very exclusive VC conference for CEOs. And she was waiting to be checked in into the conference. And there were multiple guys who came by and all of the other CEOs. And instantly they assumed that she was a secretary or an assistant and kept asking her, so where's the bathroom and where do I register and how do I get here and how do I get there? And she indicates that that's the first image that people think of. And they just don't even stop and pause and say, who's this person? Why is she here? Is she another fellow CEO? Because through media, through other conditioning, we assume things. We assume that this person who looks like this has to be this and cannot be this. And that's why I think the campaign around, I look like an engineer also is so powerful because engineers are not always in hoodies. I am wearing a hoodie today. It's logo wear. You're such a stereotype. I am, add a T-shirt, no jeans. But you know, it's that you don't have to look a certain way. You don't have to be a certain way to be that. So it's incredibly powerful. What bias does? I'm putting you on the spot. Well, no, it's awesome. I actually had one thing I wanted to talk about, but then I have this story that just like play, that I've got the story I want to tell now after you told that. Okay, I've got to tell the story. I'm at VMworld like a couple of months ago. And it's the booth crawl night. And so I'm dressed, actually, almost in exactly what I'm wearing now, except I think I had a nicer shirt on underneath the jacket. I don't look like an engineer at this point. And I walked into a booth and they've got a rack of storage gear in there. And I walk up to this rack of storage gear and I've had a glass or two of wine and I'm like, wow, neat sand. Can you tell me about it? This is cool. And this guy puts his hand up onto the thing and he's like, oh, I don't know anything about that. And I'm like, no, really, this looks kind of cool. And he's wearing the logo of the company and I'm like, okay, we can walk around and look at the back of the thing. And I'm like, oh, wow, you've got drives in the backside. That's kind of cool. Do you have to do anything different to be able to cool these? Oh, you don't have any I.O. cards back here, but what's available? Start asking them questions and he won't talk to me. Will not answer any technical questions. He thinks I'm a booth babe or something. And I was just utterly flabbergasted and I can see the three dudes that are manning the booth with him, like standing behind him and they could see like the smoke starting to come out of my ears. And I just looked at him and I said, do you understand that I buy a few million dollars worth of storage gear a year and like stormed out of his booth and just watched. That's the pretty woman moment. If you guys remember pretty woman, no? Yeah. I mean, that way. So yeah, don't always look like an engineer. Sorry, that was, that's the story. It really, really happens. But so now I'm actually gonna tell you about the bias that we see everywhere and this is, I'm actually gonna make a confession. We were, I was doing some reading trying to come up with ideas for things to talk about about this and what are the biases that are out there and I read one and I went, holy cow, I do this and I realized this is a bias I have myself and it's one of those ones that cognitively I know this is wrong but I find myself doing it subconsciously and there's a bias that women who are mothers are not as technically competent as women who don't have children. And I got mean we lost our technical chops when we had a baby. You know, and this part of my brain is- Because they're kind of on different spheres, right? Different areas, yeah. Mommy brain, yeah. And I'm absolutely positive that I have met women you know, in our social circles and we've been talking about stuff and then suddenly they start talking about their kids and I go, your kids. And it's that suddenly we're not exactly the same and that's bias and I've caught myself and it never clicked until I was studying for this thing or reading up on something. So this is, and the way you get over it is recognizing it and saying I'm not gonna do it anymore. And that's what you have to do. It's finding them, recognizing them and moving on, you know, and just making a conscious decision not to do it. We have a question from the audience. Yeah, I was curious, have you ever- Oh, yes. I didn't hear about a story. How did you- Do you want me to repeat that on the mic? Yeah. Oh, the question was, have you ever used bias to your own advantage? Yeah, I have heard a story on public radio. One of the women who is part of the poker championships. She's one of the few women who has won, you know, the all-time poker championships. She said she noticed that there was a subtle bias in the poker championships and she was at the table, people would kind of underestimate her and would think that she could not absolutely play the game or was, you know, perhaps bluffing or something like that. And so she used that to her advantage and she won it. She really threw off, you know, the people at the table. But that's just one example. So one example is just, you know, very recently, you know, I have to give briefings for clients and so I'll be sitting in a room mostly with, you know, mostly men of a certain age and they think I'm the secretary or I'm the administrator, I'm the one who's gonna get them coffee. So they'll start talking, right? And since I'm, you know, there's probably not a brain cell in my head, you know, I'm not gonna be picking up on what they're saying. So you can hear a lot of really good stuff that they don't want you to hear. The other way you can use it to your advantage is once you do point out that, oh no, you're a featured speaker and you heard everything they said, they feel really guilty, right? And you can use that for your advantage as well. So I never hesitate to do that. You know, always want the emotional, you know, baggage or, you know, bank that later, that emotional coinage. So yeah, those are two ways. Yeah, it's like knowing how to speak Japanese and pretending that you don't know Japanese, right? And you hear all kinds of things. I was just gonna say embarrassment is an amazingly powerful tool to make people learn stuff. Yeah. Thinking about just sort of the general examples of bias. There's been some studies and some articles I've read recently about the tendency for people to look for and hire people who they think of as being like them, whatever that may mean. And the thing is, it's like I have seen it in organizations where I've been working, where I'll be sitting in a meeting, I'll look around the table and I'll realize that all of these guys, it's not even just that they're all men, but they all dress alike and they all sort of carry themselves the same way. And you know that they have the same interests because you've talked to them offline. And I mean, there's a photo floating around the internet right now of a bunch of guys at some unnamed San Francisco startup. They are all wearing plaid flannel shirts. They look like clones. It looks like a glitch in the matrix. And, you know, it's, that brings group think. Yeah. It's a whole new level of understanding. Yes. And again, going back to Jessica's point from earlier, you've got to have that diversity of thought and that, you know, that diversity of viewpoints or else you're going to have a whole bunch of guys in plaid flannel shirts who all think that, who all think that you need a delivery service for shoe polish. Well, actually, excellent examples, Enron. Enron was a perfect example of group think. And they fooled us for a shockingly long time. So thank you. Next question is, you know, what are some of the things you've done, and I know we started talking about this to make sure people are aware of their biases so that we can combat them and get past them. So I'll start with Karen. Just talking about it really is a big thing. And, you know, a few years, last year, actually, at Paris, a friend of mine who I believe is sitting out in the audience right now, we ended up just hanging out after the conference with a couple of developers and somehow the subject of being a woman in technology or being, you know, in my case, being a minority woman in America in technology, it came up and we started talking to them about the ways people have reacted to us, the assumptions people have made, the times where you've gone into a meeting and everybody says, oh, will you take the notes, Karen? You know, that kind of thing. And frankly, when you- I have that problem. Yeah, honestly, the will you do, will you- If you take the notes, you own the meeting. There is that. Yes. Getting back to using bias to your- He knows that because he took our notes. Actually, the whole, will you take the notes thing stings doubly for me because I'm also a technical writer? And they're like, oh, you're the one with the words. You take the notes. But again, there is that, as Beth points out, there is that advantage. It's like, I can write the words exactly the way that I think they need to be. And assign action items. And assign action items, yes. It's like, no, here, it says right here, action, yeah. But yeah, I mean, you know, we, going back to what I was saying to the story, I was saying earlier, Alex and I, we were just, we were talking to these guys about the stuff that we've experienced, that kind of thing. And I mean, you know, at a certain point, they're just staring at us with like eyes like saucers. And they're like, we had no idea. And I mean, and that's huge. And especially when you're talking to people who you are, you know, who respect you, who you know well. And sometimes just telling people can be enormously powerful. Courtney, last year during my service review, the only thing that my boss called me out on. He says, you know, you're doing great. Everything's awesome. But we've got a problem. You're not very tactful sometimes. And you're really bad about interrupting people. You do it all the time. You interrupt people. Just cut them off. You really gotta work on that. All right. I'll work on that. And you know, we all know the thing about, you know, you can't get a word in edge-wise as one, unless you, okay, fine boss. Next day. The next day. I'm in a meeting with the man and I'm walking through a design. Right in the middle, it cuts me off. Maybe a week later, I'm walking, you know, next week's dirt design review team. Walking through a design. My VP of ops cuts me off. Right in the middle of my presentation. I turn to him and say, let me finish. Finish my thing. Get pulled into my boss's office. Get chewed out for telling the VP to let me finish. I then said, we need to have a little conversation about who's getting chewed out a bit, interrupting people. And let's have a conversation about bias. And actually, there's a great article, which, you know, if I'd been smart, I would have sent you the link. We'll send it out. About some of these particular things and about talking about it and using your words. You know, I'm gonna finish. Let me finish. Well, I left a job because that happened to me. I thought you were about to react. Sheepishly. He wanted to crawl underneath the desk. When he realized that he just, he did. So he heard you. Oh yeah. I'm more really lucky I have an awesome boss. I'm sure there are bosses that wouldn't have taken it well, but my boss took it really well. Yeah. Cause I left a job because I was told I talked too much in meetings and I flat out said, obviously you're not aware of the studies that have shown that women are cut off all the time. You know, and I think that's part of the unconscious bias training that companies are rolling out. And one of the things we talked about from a woman of OpenStack also is if you're a leader in the OpenStack community, if you are running a project, if you are owning a project, if you are a PTL, et cetera, you really need to go through that training because it really gives you tools and ability to be a great leader. And I think Jessica's absolutely correct. Being a great leader is that you can work with all kinds of people and you grow through that experience because for me, when I'm with someone exactly like me, then I don't grow. But if I'm with someone who is very different than me, I grow a lot. The second area of training that companies are doing to your point, Courtney, is allies training. And they're basically saying, how can people in a meeting be allies to each other? So if you see bad behavior, call it out right away. If someone's constantly cutting people off, someone's constantly interrupting, someone's constantly not attributing ideas to people when they should be, then call it out because we all have responsibilities to call out bias when we see it. It's not just the person who's being biased against. So I think listening to Courtney talk, having set ground rules that you guys, that the team all agrees on, when we have meetings, we don't interrupt each other, right? I mean, it sounds kind of simple and easy, but by just making the uncomfortable choice to share that with the team, these meetings have gotten unproductive. These are some of our ground rules. We're not going to interrupt each other. We're going to take minutes. We're going to assign actions. It's really simple things, but you don't always think to do it. I'm on tons of conference calls all day long. And one of the biases I had is when people don't speak up on conference calls, what are they doing? Are they, did they just dial in? And do they snooze off? Are they working on email? Are they surfing the web? What's going on? And so I actually, I talked to one of my employees and I said, you're kind of quiet when we have this call every week and I expect for you, this is a place for you to be seen, virtually seen. So I need you to be more, I need you to be more active and participant. And they said, well, this is somebody who doesn't work in the US in the US time zone. And they said, well, this call is scheduled every day when I'm on the train. And I cannot, it's really hard for me to talk about confidential stuff when I'm in public transportation. Easy fix. We move the meeting, right? So just by addressing it, having a discussion about it, me wanting to include that person, wanting to take that extra step, you can really get past a lot of things. But again, it's taking the time to have the conversation. So with this, we have a few minutes left and I'd like to open it up to the audience, questions and comments. So, yes. Yeah, you need a, yeah. Should I start again? Yes. Okay, yes, sorry. Just in the interests of actually actioning things then, I'd just like to quickly call Beth out on earlier. I got the pronouns wrong, right? Yes, you were talking about kind of a full psychologist. I realized actually, as I said it, I did get the pronouns wrong. She. Thank you. Thank you. Any other thoughts, questions? By the way, I love the fact that this is actually a mixed audience. It's not just women. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on addressing not how we are physically in a funny way, but there's that bias in corporations that, well, technical people, you wouldn't know anything about marketing or salespeople, well, you're not as smart as my engineers. Can we talk about that a little bit? I just wanna hear some people talk about that. That's a great question and absolutely, that's bias, actually. So, I actually have a thought about that and I recently wrapped up at Rackspace a leadership training program where a big part of that training was to go out and talk to other people outside your business unit in other roles that you don't know. Now, for me, that was absolutely terrifying. But I am sitting up here on a panel but I swear to you, I have terrible anxiety with people. But it was terrifying, but it was, for me it ended up being the most valuable thing that I did in the course of that thing because I got to know what other people did in the business but also got to understand what they did, how they did it. And I think one of the things that was helpful about it was just understanding how to operate according to everybody's appropriate role or everybody's terms without disrespecting them for say, oh, it's like, I'm technical, you're a marketing person. Getting around that stuff by really understanding what they do and I thought that was extremely valuable. It's almost my mission in life to learn how to do absolutely everything and anything. I have a degree in biology. I was a veterinary technician for all through college and it was my first career. I've worked at the National Zoo doing education programs. My first job in IT was as a customer service manager. I then learned idle and project management became an implementation manager, soaked up a whole bunch of technical stuff, became a sales engineer. I do engineering design and I do my own P&Ls. Anybody can learn anything. You just have to prove it by being good at it. You know. But yeah, anybody can learn anything and just do it. Just, I mean, that's all I can say about it is just do it and don't be afraid to do it. Well, I'd actually like to make a comment related to that which is the women have opened that breakfast yesterday. One of the conversations we had is about careers and career management and the fact that if you're an engineer, you really need to learn those other skills. If you're a marketing person, you really need to learn those other skills to really advance your career. If you talk to any very senior person, you'll find that they have a mix of skills. They may have started at one thing and then moved to another. In fact, I think the average person over their career changes what they do radically at least three or four times. And I'm a perfect example. Actually, I have a degree in architecture as in like buildings and I'm a licensed registered architect. Who would've thunk it? Actually, I have a funny joke about this, but it's the truth. One of the VP of sales was interviewing me for my current position. He said, you know, why do you wanna come over to sales? And I told him, because if I don't win both sides of the business, I'll never run this place. Absolutely, online. So when you're creating a product as well, you're creating a product for a very diverse audience. So you really need to have a diverse team that's creating it. But the other aspect is ideas can come from anywhere. And I think it's so important to hear, as a product manager, I always used to ask my engineers. I used to ask my documentation team to ask the users. I used to ask lots of different people and not assume that all good ideas need to come from product management, which is just the last place. We really need to curate and aggregate ideas across the organization and not assume that, yeah, things come only from certain places, yeah. Do we have another question? Because we're almost at time. Yeah, we, yeah. Another question? You wanna be recorded for posterity. Karen was talking about anonymizing the resumes. I'm curious how prevalent that is. And in particular, as an engineer, we're not really necessarily usually part of the process for HR and things like that. So how prevalent do HR departments know about doing that sort of technique? Is it something that's common in the industry or is it not common? So it's getting more common. And so if you can go ask your HR department, by the way, and ask them to start anonymizing it. So companies that are serious about diversity are doing things like that. A, they're anonymizing that. They're going to the right places to recruit because you can't go to the same old places to recruit for women or minorities. Third, have people in the recruiting team which represent minorities as well. So if you're recruiting at a black school, have black engineers, if you're recruiting at a women's school, have women in the recruiting team and train your recruiters in unconscious bias and how those biases can affect the recruiting team from screening candidates before they come in. They're kind of the gatekeepers. So we really need to make sure the recruiting team is doing it right. I assume there are resources available. We can point our HR departments out. Yeah, there are. I was going to say, your job hunting is there a way to know which companies do that? Well, no, not yet. So actually, I'm a hiring manager and I like to see the names. I'd like to see the association there because I'd like to be inclusive of diversity. So for me, it wouldn't help as much because I actually use that to seek diverse candidates out. And I think you bring up a good point as a hiring manager, but what happens is the staffing is a gatekeeper and sometimes it just doesn't make it past to you. And of course, as a hiring manager, you can demand that there be diverse set of slate of candidates for every single job, yeah. Yeah, there's a question. My husband ran ops at Hotmail and he was looking for people on the ops team and he kept getting resumes for black men and for white and Asian men and he kept asking HR specifically for women's resumes. And HR kept saying, well, there are none that you'd be interested in. And he said, yes, there are. And don't do any filtering. Send me all of them. And he had to train HR that the entire discrimination, bias, diversity thing, they were looking at it from a perspective that didn't match Silicon Valley. They were looking at it from perspective of perhaps East Coast or whatnot. And sometimes, like you said, HR needs the education and the way you can do that is say, stop filtering. I think you bring up a good point and Jessica did too, which is hiring managers have a lot of power and you really need to demand that you get a good slate of candidates. And by the way, I just came from Grace Hopper and also Society of Women Engineers recently. There were 11,000 engineers at Grace Hopper, women engineers, and there were 9,000 women engineers at the Society of Women Engineers. So it's a myth sometimes that you can't find them. If you go to the right places, you can't find them. So with that, we have, we actually are coming up, we're standing between you and lunch. We can't do that. So I just wanted to wrap up. Thank you, everybody on the panel. I think this was a really good discussion. And here's some resources to join the discussion. The women of OpenStack is a very active group and we have a great work page. We have meetings every week or so, every two weeks. Yeah. We have a LinkedIn group, mailing list and we now have an IRC, which my company still blocks. So, and we've had a successful outreach program. So I think it's great, 11% on to 50%.