 So Arthur, let's go ahead and we'll begin right at the very beginning. Yes Tell me a little bit about your family and you're growing up because you came from a very progressive family environment Yes, I'm very privileged to have parents like that My father was at the university very Yes open-minded I As a child I was allowed to pursue my own things Of course, I had to get good grades. They were not lenient on that but other than that I could pursue my own interests and They never tried to push me in a certain direction as a child that was very free to Choose my own things. What things did you choose? Well in the beginning I was rather playful. I just played around But really like play With boys and girls in the neighborhood, we were very close to woods so we played there and Yeah, innocent stuff Lonely later say at high school that I Became more aware of myself. So I was a kind of playful Innocent guy, really, but you you are not from Amsterdam originally. Where is your hometown? I'm originally I'm I was born in Eindhoven Although my parents are from Amsterdam. So I did know Amsterdam already because my grandparents were there But I lived in the south of the Netherlands, which is a company town of Phillips electronics Although my father was one of the few in my class who didn't work at Phillips, but we were at the university Okay. Yes. It was a university town. Yes. Yes So tell us a little bit about the atmosphere from the university Well, as it is a technical university. It was very much the math physics Yeah nerdy kind of guys Well, really very yeah, I'm not really a Person that's good in physics and mathematics and things like that. So I did not follow in my father's footsteps. I studied economics, but yeah, it's It's a university town but without say the cultural things that you have in the university which also has Literature and art schools So it's a very and also because of Eindhoven being the head office of Phillips electronics. It's a very technical town Okay But you said as an elementary school student that you knew already that you were different Yes, and that's kind of at the end of the elementary school I started noticing that guys acted weird when girls were around And I didn't feel that urge to act weird with girls around it all and of course at that point in time I only noticed like hmm Why aren't they acting like that? It's only later on that you of course realized why I didn't have those special feelings Towards girls and the others had So how old were you when you realized that you were a little bit different Yeah, that's So around 14 Around 14 15. I kind of had worked it out. That's that I was gay even though I didn't have sexual experiences that but like Yeah, thinking yeah, okay But you you read and I will try to pronounce this in the Dutch language if it's possible But it's is it? Netherlands once again Netherlands fried Netherlands and what what was it? Why was that important to you? Fry Netherlands was an opinion paper It started during the Second World War as a resistance paper But after the Second World War they became a say a left-leaning Opinion paper weekly and that was one of the first Things where I read about homosexuality because they were very open and Trying to get people People's life better and getting gays people's life better was one of their subjects So I could read about the homosexuality and that was kind of coincided with myself Realizing like hey, that's it How did you find this newspaper? my parents were Subscripted to it. So every week that newspaper was delivered and Yeah, my parents of sorts thought it was good that I read it because it was not only that were all kind of other societal Things that were in that paper and I was an avid reader. So They thought it is good that there were certain subjects that interested me more than others What other subjects were interesting? I think the other subjects that they were in that newspaper were really about This was like the late 60s the left movement student Resistance and of course also Vietnam Yeah, those subjects interested me as well How did the the Dutch people feel about these subjects was it very different from what we know in American history, maybe Yeah, well Like for example, Vietnam is was not like yeah far away Like commenting I say commenting from the sidelines because we were not in that war We have of course all kind of opinions about it But if you are a continental way, it's kind of easy to have opinions about what another country is doing I think For the Dutch society as a whole that Frey-Nederland was kind of a thought leader especially on the left side and the more politically left area and a lot of things that came in Frey-Nederland then say five or ten years later We can also more accepted in society as a whole Well, you attended the university in Tilburg. Tell us about the gay life that you found at the university Yeah, it was kind of basic Because this being even though it's the late 70s when I started to study there was only one gay bar and that was really like Bitchy Queens And also what I found Not nice is it was one of those bars where you first have to ring In order to get in and when I did get in as a 20 year old There were kind of all kind of older guys who told me that they would show me the ropes and I thought no no no First of all they were not at all Letterman. They were those Yeah fashion Queens and I quickly concluded like That's not my thing But then yeah, you quickly found out that there is an Amsterdam a different kind of scene and so and As Netherlands has good public transport I simply took the train to Amsterdam But how did you find this this bar in Tilburg? Oh, when you were enrolled at the university you got say a information pack and In that information pack was also information about homosexuality. So in that sense it was already quite open and Yeah, there it said like yeah for gays there is this bar that you can go to Like just like there were all kind of other things in that information pack like sports events things like that But also there was one sheet about gay That's very progressive. I think Yeah, but I'm Then again fortunate To live in the Netherlands gay liberation started like Already like in the 60s and by the 70s, although it was not widely accepted Especially in university circles. It was no longer a problem That as I said, it's very progressive compared to the culture that I know. Yeah, so But you said you explored cruising areas, please tell us about that. Yeah, well if there is only one bar And I was not the only one not liking that bar and especially not liking the clique of people who were who kind of were ruling it Yeah, the especially in the countryside you have cruising areas and I only found out by that by coincidence because I biked by a park and Yeah, I saw something I parked my bike And then I found out that in the bushes all kind of interesting things were happening there like what? Well like sex I Can't even imagine I'll explain it to you when you're old Was there anything shocking about that for you no not for me others might have found it shocking but I never had this problem with That sex can only be in the bedroom or something no And I also like to watch what you can also do in those cruising areas and Participate well I'm I'm shocked for you Yeah, well then at least someone is No, I think It's part of the sexuality. I think it's a part of sexuality of a lot of people gay people, but also straight people by the way Yeah, and Why My I don't think Why be difficult about it But you don't hurt anyone I mean you we did take care that this was not like clearly visible You wouldn't stumble upon it by accident So you you took the precaution to make sure it was at least discreet. Yeah Yeah, you had to Because back then the police was also still really checking on that Now you mentioned that you went to Amsterdam, how did you discover the bars in Amsterdam such as the cuckoo's nest the Argos bar Tell us about your visits there Yes, well, I went already went to Amsterdam just to visit and on one of those visits I In a bookshop. I found the Spartacus guide and In the Spartacus guide you can find. Yeah, you could find all the things about bars and things like that and I read about Argos cuckoo's nest and things like that. I thought oh, okay Cuckoo's nest that's one of the places to go So I had a railway ticket back then so from Tilburg I took the train in the evening to Amsterdam I went to the cuckoo's nest and Three other places and then yeah in the morning in the first train. I went back home again Were you exhausted Well when you're 24 Something you can skip a night and still survive Besides the next day. I simply either skipped colleges or it was on a weekend and I simply slept in Tell us a little bit about the cuckoo's nest you experienced. Is it different from today? It's not really different from today in that sense. You can sales Of course, it is refurbished and it was more sleazy back then If you if that is possible. Yes, it is But it is still the bar upstairs the dark room downstairs the dark room took me a bit of yeah Getting used to but then I met a nice guy and he said you're you're curious about it It says the answer well he took me along and he showed me and left me at it and Yeah, it's very friendly Was a really nice guy who thought oh bit shaky I'm not shaking now anymore, but back then it was still yeah really exciting But tell us a little bit more about your first experiences there Yeah, well, then you go downstairs and you see a kind all engaging in well insects and also Cubicles and think like that and I quickly got the hang of it Yeah nice guys Not being difficult playing around Yeah, that that that was really my thing I Believe a lot of people are very curious about the Argos bar because it closed some years ago, but in The the day of the Argos it was iconic Yes, and at first Because I didn't have any letter Back then I was not even allowed into the Argos in the Cuckoo's nest. It was not a problem the all kind of Birds of all kind of feathers were allowed into the Cuckoo's nest as they are today But Argos was really a letter thing But I had a friend in Tilburg who said oh, okay, you let you borrow my letter pants You have a black t-shirt and then you'll get in so the first time I went to the Argos was on a borrowed pair of letter pants and I've quickly found out that the Argos was more about the image and I like that a little how shall I say the Cuckoo's nest was for action and the Argos was really a Letter bar and I do like that image. So I Frequently I frequented the Argos quite a bit and by the way this letter fast is one of the earliest things that I bought and It is still with me after all those years. That's amazing Yeah, but it's how shall I say that's with letter if you buy good quality you can Wear it for years and years. Yes But you mentioned when you went to the Argos that you were reluctant to go downstairs Yeah, tell us a little about that but that had to do with the Mail image I Because back then it was really only letter pants and a vest and I Didn't know whether I loot live up to the image that people had Of a person visiting Argos so But I found out that yeah, it is that image, but underneath They're normal people Tell us a little bit about your thoughts and your feelings about Exploring these sex places in the Argos in the Cuckoo's nest clearly it had to be eye-opening It was because well, sometimes you Read about it, but it is quite different when you Yeah, really experience it. I also experienced certain things that I think oh I didn't that I didn't like For example, I'm not really into SM the whole whip thing like that Well, it turns out that I thought it was very interesting But once I experience it it was like no Yeah, well It didn't work for me It's an image but for me it yeah the SM world is not my world and Not making any problems about that, but it is simply you have to be just like there are other Kings and fetishes that other people don't find interesting. I'm not so very much into the SM Master slave thing. No What about the leather do you really enjoy if not the SM then what do you enjoy? I enjoy the fact the the masculine image Remember, I told you about this bar in Tilburg when I started the university where all were fashion queens No, that's not my cup of tea. It is this. I I Like I mean, I'm gay. I like a man to look like a man and this Thing is what I like, but I also found out That's at least in my experience The brotherhood in the leather world is much better rather than the Yeah, the the sometimes nasty bitchy queen Experiences that I had in Tilburg Okay, of course not everyone in Tilburg is like that. It was just that bar and that group of people, right? Let's shift gears a little bit. Yes, and what is the motorsports club Amsterdam? motorsport club Amsterdam is is a leather and fetish club and I became interested in the motorsport club Amsterdam after had been in Amsterdam for a few years and Yeah, then you do your fetishes and things like that, but then at some point in time you want to do a bit more and Yeah, I have more connection and the motorsport club Amsterdam is a group of friends who share this leather and fetish and Who yeah a broader and well we call it it is broader hood in a positive way that You know each other your friends with each other you do things together organize things together and For me it was really like an extra because yeah, you can go up to a bar and go away Whereas with the motorsport clubs Amsterdam you really have friends and How did you learn about it? two ways Some people that I met in the Argos were members but a friend of mine was a friend with Marion Polen Marion Polen was a Secretary of the MSA. She was a very colorful figure and She said yeah, why don't you come to the MSA as well? I Learned got her to know her in a totally different setting, but she said you will like it there So it is friends of mine who were already a member of the MSA and Marion and an ex of mine who also was Became a man had become a member. I thought that's my club So, oh, what are your thoughts on being the president? I like being the president in the sense that I like to accomplish things So I just don't just want to be a member of the MSA which at the start I was But now yeah, you can take your club and your friends your group of friends to new directions new initiatives and Be but also be there for members. We have a number of older members who also need attention because they were founding members as this club already exists for 48 years and Yeah, like this friendship Also comes with responsibilities, and I don't run away from responsibilities. What responsibilities? Responsibilities in the sense that you keep in touch with your older members to see Whether they're still in good health. Of course. I'm not the only one doing that. We have a board As a board you jointly check and also you hear from other members like oh, yeah So and so he is not doing well and then you contact him And so that those people don't become Shall I say lonely that they know that the MSA is still there for them? That's very noble. I wish more clubs would do that. Yeah, but it is also Yeah, it's maybe it's noble, but it's friendship because Most of them are people who in the past did lots of things for the MSA Organized a lot of things were active members and then it's not I don't see it as I shall I say noble as an obligation. No, they're they're part of your friends and you do things for friends. Oh What activities does motorsports Amsterdam do now? Mostly we're a social club. So we are for friends monthly meetings Which are kind of low-key We have a new year's reception that this year we did together with letter friends Netherlands Which is an is initiative of other letter groups as well. So we had a big new year's reception For example when you on canal parade the float in August We have a terrace a viewing terrace for members and People who are also into the letter and fetish Sometimes we have a weekend with friends simply in the countryside and we also involved in letter pride Amsterdam Supporting the mr. Netherlands letter Netherlands election and supporting the letter pride Amsterdam and of October weekend in a general way How have you seen the changes in the local Amsterdam letter scene? Well, if I may go again a bit in the past It was lots of freedom and then HIV came along That was a very hard time also for the MSA because we really had then a group supporting the members with AIDS and That changed the MSA in a way too because in the start we were the one Organizing the fetish and sex parties because there was nothing else like that But with HIV and things happening we moved away a bit from the sex As packed and became more a friendship and brotherhood and Supporting each other so nowadays we don't organize any sex parties Ourselves anymore. We of course willing to help with other events Because we have evolved into a more friendship brotherhood organization and not Providing sex parties In the 1970s when we were founded that was really nasty Siri because there was nothing like fetish parties and things like that and back then if you wanted to do something You had to organize it all by yourself because it also means such a party meant all the members had to do tasks as well and some did that Wholeheartedly others not so voluntarily Because they meet so this nice guy that you want to have sex with no you are now over there So you have to do your work But it was shifts. So you always knew that later on you can play and things like that Nowadays the parties are more like this and like we are here in Antwerp a big event organized and It's good We as MSA are not large enough anymore to organize events like this Yeah, you did mention that the Membership is dropping off and why is that happening? Well, it's a general thing at least in the Netherlands. We are an association and whether it is a football club or MSA or There are less volunteers people don't want to become a member of a club because They don't they fear the obligation that's involved in it Although I think it's not obligation because it is simply friendship brotherhood But you see a general trend that people don't want to commit to something long term they rather decide at the last moment and that is why we have a Smaller number of members now but yeah, we can also survive And I'm prosper with only 50 members Is it about 50 right now? It's about 50 right now and it was say at the highest point it was like 100 120 So we never were that very big But because we exist so long we are quite well known But we never were a big club like the Scandinavian clubs the Scandinavia you have a different concept You have Don't usually have leather and fetish bars, but the clubs are the bars in Order to get into the bar you have to be a member So everyone who wants to visit that bar Simply have to become a member and then you have hundreds of members But they're not like the same type of active members like the Amazon so you simply are a member to in order to enter What is the ECMC tell us about that? Yes? Well, you have the Amazon, but there are a lot of other European cities like here in Belgium you have MSc Belgium who also co-hosts letter pride Belgium and you have in other countries also these letter clubs and in the early 70s MSc Belgium MSA and a number of other clubs jointly formed the European Confederation of motorcycle clubs So we support each other just like in a club. We support the members as Letter organizations we support new letter organizations for example the ECMC have done much about Eastern European countries where it's still difficult to have gay clubs and to have fetish And then the ECMC as a confederation is there to help new clubs Found them and support them So it's really a joint initiative That's that's very beneficial. I think for a lot of the communities here. Yes Because also, but it's also nice for yourself because you have your event and Then you post it on the ECMC website and then you have members of other clubs come to your events and vice versa and that that's Yeah, that that Fosters the international brotherhood within Europe. Absolutely. Absolutely like for example in January I was in Milan on the Invited by letter and fetish Milano for a contest and it's very nice you go to another town you see something of the town you see the people and Well, some of the people I saw in Milan I see now here in Antwerp and I will see them in Folsom and so You reinforce each other and especially for a starting club like letter and fetish Milano It's the ECMC is very beneficial because it puts you on the picture But mr. Leather Europe began in 1995 tell us how did that begin? well in 1995 it was the 25th anniversary of the MSA and For our 25th anniversary. We did a big big party and Two years before Henry Tannhaver became one of our members He became international mr. Leather and he says well We must have something similar like that in Europe as well, and that is why we thought well We are going to introduce the mr. Leather Europe contest at our 25th anniversary more or less along the lines the IML was already working and it was a big success and Here also comes the ECMC and to play Because we knew that we would not be able to organize the mr. Leather Europe contest every year but every year there is a HM of the ECMC where all the clubs come together for their annual meeting. Yeah, that's the annual general meeting annual general meeting Yes, and then we decided Amongst the ECMC Let's combine it the club that organizes the HM Also has the right to organize the mr. Leather Europe contest It's nice because then you know that every year a Mr. Leather Europe is going to be elected a club can help making mr. Leather Europe more well-known throughout Europe and it attracts people and I like it very much that since then It has been possible to organize the mr. Leather Europe each year again in a diff Not always in a different city because we have brought it back to Amsterdam a number of times, but it is really yeah, it Makes it possible for clubs to organize a mr. Leather Europe contest in their own town Thanks to the ECMC. That's absolutely fantastic. Yeah, yeah What advice do you have for people entering the local Dutch leather scene? the advice that I have is a Be yourself the voice is of course easy to say but if you go into the Dutch leather scene It's leather But it is not like 30 years ago only leather It's much more relaxed now you can be in rubber the one day in leather the next week sportswear and so It's a nice image and But don't be hung up too much about the image Because it's the friendship That you find in a community which is much more important than the way you look or the way you dress Taking a little bit of an aside note on this Hasn't the Netherlands produced at least two mr. Leather Europe's am I correct on that? no More more than that. Yeah, that's free The one thing that we have which is a novelty is that we have two in a row Because Raymond was last year and Avery is this year, but for example Peter class Yeah, a number of years ago was also mr. Leather Europe, but okay two in a row is a first Right, I wasn't sure how many there had been but it's been very successful for Netherlands Yes, but I don't see it as successful for Netherlands per se, but I think it's successful for Europe I think the masters and you see more and more of that When a mr. Becomes mr. Europe he really tours Europe visits all kind of events from other clubs brings Yeah, extra city extra people to it visibility and most misters also adopt a Good cause like for example Torsten and also Raymond, but no sorry joking and Raymond both worked for real world rain brought Getting people out of Chechnya the Chechnya 100 so It's not just the image The misters all Europe, but also the local misters by the way also want to do good things What advice have you for some of the contestants here at the contests? There are several contests going on here in the Dark Lands and Antwerp this weekend. What advice do you have for them? Well as far as they need advice to begin with because I think a lot of those guys are very Motivated and know what they want, but I think there are two things first of all enjoy it because it's really it's your moment and your your moments to be in the limelight and Simply enjoy it and the second thing is Look a bit further find your Cause that you want to do once you are a mr. Because just showing up looking beautiful. I think is is not enough. It's also not really fulfilling I think and you see that that a lot of guys do that that they adopt some Subject that they want to bring further in that year That makes it maybe sound all that it is very much work and a task, but I Don't think so because if you adopt a certain subject you get energy from that as well Absolutely, I agree What differences do you see? between the European leather scenes and Foreign leather scenes for example in North America or other parts of the world Well for of course for as much as I know The advantage what we have in Europe is this ECMC of all the clubs Doing activities together visiting each other. There's really Yeah, a calendar and I think like that I For what I understand the North American clubs are more like standalone clubs and For what I know about it, but that may be my prejudice They are also more like as m-oriented more as m-oriented than the European clubs who are much more about Brotherhood and about several fetishes but that's my Idea about it or my my view and what is the biggest misconception about you I Think I Think I'm a friendly guy But that doesn't mean that I'm a pushover because sometimes people mistake that and I Am in principle very friendly and open towards people, but that doesn't mean that you can Let me do the things for you. I am not a pushover. I know what I want and I will tell you in a friendly way and if you don't understand in a friendly way I may tell you in a less friendly way Well Arthur, I would like to thank you very much for coming here to Antwerp during Leather fetish pride Belgium in order to participate in this chat. Thank you It's been my pleasure and I thank you very much. I must say I enjoyed it very much and thank you for the invite I'm very pleased