 Right so there once was a mouse and this mouse was running through a wheat field and the wheat was really high and it couldn't find its way out so he looked up at the trees and there was an owl sitting there wise old owl and he asked the owl can you tell me the way out of this week because you can see which is the way out and the owl said I've got an idea for you why don't you grow some wings then you fly up you can see your way out and then you can go out that's a fantastic idea but wait a minute how do I grow wings and the owl said I only do strategy I don't do execution so we'll just keep that in mind as we go through this day and my name is Phil Abernathy I work in my company called Purple Candor I've been doing Agile transformations for almost 12 years now and done over about 15 of them from small-sized companies of 200 people to IBM at 400,000 people I've led and guided them on this journey and what I'm going to share with you today is the learnings from from all that and the messages how do you craft a transformation if you go in where do you start so there's a lot to cover and I'm going to zip through the first two bits which is all about the first thing to T or not to T why do you need to transform at all we'll talk about some principles and then we'll run straight through it so maybe it's best if you know just move a little bit then you could see better just anywhere else yeah okay thanks so the first thing is why change now if you look at what's been happening in the world today just takes years for example Sears has got it's been over a hundred years and they've gone from roughly the number one spot about ten years ago to bankrupt today they've dropped 97 98 9900 bankrupt percent whereas Amazon has gone up 2000 percent so what's the difference how come those two are such a everybody has the same technology everybody has the same thing what's been happening there are three things that happen in the world today the number one thing is the speed of change change has always been there it's never been something special yeah we've always been changing but it's the speed of change that is amazing now because the threshold of technology has come down for ten thousand bucks you can set up and run the equivalent of an Amazon straight away yourself so anyone can compete that makes means customers have choice these customers today can choose so you have to decide what do I do the other point is that because of the technology complexity in the landscape there is a scarcity of talent so you've got to create a great place to work of the ways you're not going to get great talent and it's great talent that make great companies at the end of the day your product your services only as good as the people you have so if you look at this and you say okay what do we have here we have customers you have technology you have talent the only common denominator that differentiates a great company from a good or a bad company is what we call the way of working talent you can pay you can buy technology you can buy products you can make you can copy there's nothing special about it so what is this way of working everyone's talking about so if you talk about this yeah that differentiates the best from the not so good yeah everybody wants this they want productivity they want employee engagement they want customer sat and all this including outstanding results this is all dependent on the way of working every single one and it's been proven the difference between the great companies whether it's the new tech companies or the even old tech companies that are doing fantastically it's that but it's not when you say way of working everybody thinks oh it's this soft culture thing and let's leave no it's not just the soft culture side so what does it include it includes the operating model and it includes the org structure it includes values and principles it includes leadership and mindset it includes practices and behaviors so the way of working encapsulates a lot of these things yeah we're looking at this we're not talking about 10% improvement that we're all got in our budgets every year 15% oh yeah we're going to get better we're talking about hundreds of percent improvement we're talking about 10 times faster that's the kind of productivity improvements you see and this is what you need even from the banks today if they want to stay competitive there is no other way to stay competitive but working in this area so now we've established the why so companies have to realize first do you need to transform or not do we have to change do we want to get better do we need to get better faster cheaper and happier customers happier shareholders and of course happier employees so that's the setting that we have for the why so we know the why now we say okay we know the why now it's the what so let's say you're the CEO of a company okay I need to transform my way of working what have I got now this is the dilemma the CEO's face there's six sigma there's lean there's agile the design thinking and underneath that a mix of all these things that are thrown in there there's lean six sigma there's crumb band there's Kanban everybody has put these things together and some strange things have happened people I know companies that have been implementing six sigma they find six sigma is not right for me let's do lean now rather than getting rid of the six sigma approach no no no let's call it lean six sigma so now they've mixed some other concoction and they've created that which is fine but look at the CEO now wanting to do a transformation this is what they have luckily companies in the last three years have realized this and we're starting to look at this the umbrella of business agility which is a set that works around all these different flavors and what it provides is a set of common values all of those things under the umbrella have the same set of values their human values trust respect honesty working with open next except the same principles customer focus fast iterative delivery empowering your people just to give you a few examples now the practices are a buffet don't fix your practices they're just like a buffet today your vegan go and choose those those dishes tomorrow you you've become non-veg pick those up as well depending on the type of organizational unit that you want to transform pick your practices but your values and principles don't change and when I talk organizational transformation this is not it this is your sales department your marketing your legal your finance your your business whatever supply chain everything so different practices are suited for different different parts of the business and these practices actually change behaviors behaviors change your way of working that's the cycle yeah so now you know what now we're coming to the heart of it hmm how do I do this where do I start yeah most of the organizations that I go to very often I'm called in as a yeah can we can we fix it can we have a look at this it's not been going so well can you help now a lot of the reasons there is because you're not set up for success if you don't set up for success even a project and you all know that the project is doomed to fail so setting up right is the key to success of a transformation and that brings me to the key principles of a transformation there are three principles that I like to put up the first one is decide on it the second one is commit to it and the third one is supported yeah if you don't have these three principles don't even start right so what's decide on it the first thing and this is not just the boss look at that group of violence there this is everybody in the senior leadership team for the group of people that want to transform must decide on it they have to be behind it not just the boss says one day oh yeah let's do agile let's go let's bring in business agility and transform they have to understand the impact it's going to change the old structure guys do you want that oh now we're talking it's a belief if you say no no please prove to me that this will work then it's not a strategic decision strategic decisions is what big bosses are paid for and they're paid because you have no proof that's what a strategy is yeah if it's if you know what it's going to be 100% it's not a strategy it's a fact yeah so strategic decisions to transform are a belief hmm that's difficult that's what a strategic decision is now you have to agree on one way of working for the whole org don't say I'm going to do this in the sales department oh and by the way HR you can do whatever you want and operations you can do lean don't bother with these values and principles setting it up to fail from day one do you want to improve and get better as a company better faster cheaper and they're all related all these departments as you know are tightly integrated you can't say I'm not doing the HR team so I was called into a company in Melbourne almost eight nine years ago and I was told we're going to do this transformation and we'd like you to help us but we're only doing the BAs and the devs the testers don't want it let's not involve them because the manager is not supporting it so can you transform this part yeah hello it's not going to work so call me when you're ready yeah almost nine years later the call has come yeah because they realized that will not work yeah so it is a strategic decision the next one you have to commit and what does that mean yeah yeah I commit how's the management yeah we're all committed now you know immediately that's not commitment the first one is each leader in the transformation space has to have goals in their KPIs set not the transformation team and what I see mainly with transformation the transformation team is given the responsibility of the transformation they're actually leaders that they're trying to transform they're sitting on the fence oh we'll see when you come we'll help you yeah when you go they're busy pushing back nobody holds them accountable hold the leaders accountable now the second point was very important Jeff Smith did this very well in Sun Cope when Alexander landed on the banks of the Yamuna and I think it was the Yamuna maybe that so there was a whole Indian army on the other side he was around 50,000 then because he'd walked all across the desert and and reached you know the Indus Valley and Indian army 500,000 with elephants things they'd never seen before his people are ready to leave he sent his generals in the night to go and burn their boats because they were sailing down the river they burnt the boats his army had no other choice but to stand and fight and they did defeat the Indian army they were extremely tired after that and decided to push off thank gosh but that's what they did and that's what the leaders have to do there is no other way burn the boats there's no yeah we're doing this and by the way we're also doing lean and oh yeah if you want you can decide to transform no that's not commitment yeah and I have these hard discussions with executive teams with the leaders decide if you're not in favor of it say so now and let's talk for another week so as part of the transformation I work with the executive teams to reach this commitment these are workshops these are workshops together with the senior executive team off the area that wants to transform for week two week three weeks finally hold them accountable the most successful ones I've seen has always had one firing if I go into a transformation that's been going on for a while the first question I ask how many people have been fired in your executive team or your senior leadership team no one so you think change they're just completely embracing change no they will resist change and you have to have at least one example normally because there will be one or two bad apples that will not they will commit and then they'll do something else that behavior is not acceptable that's what holding them accountable means there's the dough thank you very much off you go so Jeff did this in Suncorp after six months nothing was changing in a certain area he said to the leader concerned out what happened to the other seven leaders oh my god immediately all of them were agile and they wanted to please come in and help us transform just one that's all you need and don't accept the breakage of a commitment to a strategy companies never do this with anything else if you decide on launching a new product you don't say okay if you want you launch it the other department maybe you want to do your project you do it no you follow a product strategy there's no optionality right so then you have to support it now I see many transformations fail in this area so what is this all about this is all about not funding it no money I'll give you one person and they have to run the whole transformation the bank I'm currently working in one of them in some part of the world has got one transformation lead he's been doing it for six months is it who's your team no it's only me really just you yet just me 3,000 people to be transformed now look at that cost neutral you do not if your transformation does not pay for itself you've set it up wrong agile transformations should give you an ROI of at least twice or twice in the first year it must be cost neutral there's money in this guys you're not doing it for nothing these are all businesses if you can't spot the money don't transform you shouldn't be transforming so people who think you're transforming just to get faster forget it you want to get better faster and cheaper all three together right the second one ad car it's a journey awareness desire knowledge action reveal the old change management model you have to take people on the journey you can't force them with a stick so awareness is so important you must have the why explained to people why are we doing this the business imperative I was once called into a boss who asked me on their transformation journey and he's I asked him the question straight away why are you transforming he looked a bit offended and he said to me because I said so now how do you think that went down that obviously was my last discussion with him and I didn't get the job so the next one MMM measure measure measure if you don't measure you don't know if the change is improvement over backward step you must measure your baseline and you must measure upfront I've done a lot of transformations that have asked me can you prove to me after one year of the transformation that we've gone better yeah of course I can show some productivity I can show a few other but what's the baseline nobody measured the baseline because the measures were not even existent who had cycle time who had throughput who had customer engagement who had employee engagement measured in a normal company very few but that's what you're improving so if you don't know it you can't prove whether your change is improvement or not so please measure from day one and the last one it's a journey you have to persevere you can't do it for two months and say it's very difficult let's stop and now let's do lean oh let's do something else the next flavor of the month this is a journey for years and it's a continuous journey so it's going to take you time so that's the how am I doing for time who I'm two minutes ahead of time you can see my little time check at the top there so now we're coming to the most important part so you've got the principles laid down how do you do it how do you transform so I've created a little framework it's an ugly little picture but we'll work on that later I've called it the beam the stream and the teams these are the three things you have to focus on yeah the first thing is the beam what is the beam this is the bar this is the setting that you're transforming to so the beam consists of defining what your values and principles are what is this change in your company every company is different you can't take a cookie cutter and say from your company I'm going to put it here because culture is top-down culture is based on the senior leaders philosophy the senior leaders presence that will cascade down so you have to tailor this picture for your company and state what it is before you start otherwise halfway through everybody will put their own stuff in here and you've again got a goulash so now let's look at the values and principles the values of agility are all based to create one thing psychological safety Google wrote an Aristotle report which is ten years in the making where they studied 180 teams or something like that and they found out what makes a great team what's the difference between a high performing team and a low performing team and they took all the measures possible and it wasn't where they located it wasn't the IQ of the team it wasn't the cultural fit of the team it wasn't co-location it was only one thing psychological safety do the team members feel safe to talk to challenge to ask to think that doesn't mean democracy there's still a decision maker but it means having the freedom and safety to ask to do that you need trust respect transparency authenticity these are the four must have values you can call it different things you can call it honesty you can call it something else but if you're not committed to this don't even start your transformation now let's talk about the values the first let's talk about the principles these are the values the first one is focus on the customer at all times this could be an internal customer or an external customer the next one collaborate now I see this so very often oh yeah we we should collaborate as a principle collaborate actually means challenge and commit this is the difference in Amazon this is the difference in Google you challenge as much as you want but at the end of the day someone makes the decision and then whether you agree with it or not you follow that decision otherwise you start backstabbing people yeah yeah you give this you know what is called the kiss of yes yes yes yes and you go out of the room and it's absolutely no no no so you have to allow to people to commit and decide fast you will never know everything upfront the next one break work down into small pieces try it small iterate fast simple keep it simple don't take three months to come out with a prototype six months to do a business case forget it you're on another planet I'm talking weeks one week two weeks and start measure listen analyze learn improve you have to measure as you're going if you look at the lean startup you look at anything else it's all about this fast measurement because what you did here you'll only know whether it works if you measure on the other side otherwise how did it go what's the point of doing small and fast if you don't know where you're going next one pull work from a single prioritized backlog that's prioritized by the customer this means don't work on six things at the same time multitasking is the biggest lie it's the biggest ways to productivity now if you don't have anything to do so you you have to know what your limit is they call it whip limit I can do two things at a time that's fine you don't have to only do one but a team should be working on one project finish it get it done pull the next one yeah small persistent cross functional teams preferably co-located this is the magic now this small has been around in agile from a long time and people talk about two pizza teams yeah you must have heard of it two pizza if you can feed the team with two pizzas that's the right size so what's happened now now I've got teams that are 10 and 12 yeah yeah it's a two-peat two pizza team the guys won't even they'll starve yeah they've become six pizza teams no small means two pizza teams how much is two pizza team four people I'm building the fastest product at one or two clients now in three weeks four weeks delivering complete end-to-end solutions full stack solutions in three weeks with a team of four the entire Mac iMac software the OS operating system for the Mac is built run and operated by 30 people that's it the entire lot so next one your org structure that sits on top of your teams must be lean well-designed and simple I'm gonna talk a little bit about this in a moment and you should design it bottom up not top down hey I have a leader let's find some people for them no it's the other way around design your teams first and then find out what's the minimal span of control you want to manage that top down that's it you get these seven core principles right this is agility in your entire company sales finance marketing it does not matter this is it yeah so that's the beam you have to create a blueprint you have to find out what the content is and you have to have some baseline measures you have to do that before you start your transformation in a month this is how long it takes don't wait to get it right this will not take you too long even for a big bank if you're talking 20,000 people one month maximum that's the beam now we're going to talk about the streams the streams are how do you use that be how do you actually transform there are four streams that you have to have the first stream is the operating model and I'll talk a little bit about that the second one is the capability that you have to lift of the people because it's a different way of working it's not the same way of working yeah so you have to learn it that's training coach then there's the org model and there's the change management change management we all know awareness desire knowledge you have to have change management org model really this is the figure I get you really want to change my org model what has that got to do with transformation nobody who changes org model well that's done somewhere by HR and a few other people nobody else is involved this is a key point and I'm going to walk through that because this is where we found the biggest issues in most of the transformations and this led me to the maze so originally in the early years of the 80s and 70s organizations were vertically structured HR finance department one department two department three around the 90s we started getting horizontal as countries in we got regions we got sectors we got channels now we're living in the matrix in the 90s something strange happened in the 90s that came out from k business schools the concept of KPI management so what is the KPI management KPI management is if my innovation is not working well let's make a head of innovation oh services let's make a head of service oh how about a product head of productivity vice president of productivity how about main vice president of maintenance support and it goes on and on and on and on with vice presidents all over they have an army of people under them and in the middle is Bob Bob is the person doing the work that has not changed so we have built an inverted pyramid on top of Bob now you see who's responsible for this who's responsible I've got one company I worked I was shocked when they have appointed they were not doing well in Europe and certain country in Europe yeah they've got a country manager they've got a sector manager they've got a region manager they've got a product manager they've got a sales manager and they've got a channel manager in Europe in one city one area let's take it as Holland guess what they do because gross margin was not good vice president of gross margin and it's to that extent because there is one person who didn't have a job senior vice president so let's park the fellow here and give him or her some 10 people to manage that's the maze try operating in this now talk about complexity that brings us to the madness the madness is how work flows through the maze imagine this maze now now you have to pass and this is the red line is the way it's documented and put in the cupboard but that's not how work happens work happens with the yellow line which is another more convoluted approach if you really want to get stuff done you take the little dotted line you know who to call you call Bob and Bob will fix it for you isn't that how it works that's how we all work and then what do we do oh we automate this madness we get SAP and we pour it in like liquid cement and then you're stuck when you're configuring it it's nice and then it hardens completely solidified this maze now try changing this this is what we walk into and say let's transform yeah and then of course we need these maze runners these are project managers I pity them really men and women who saw job is to run this maze I went to one of the banks in in Australia 102 developers how many project managers do you think they had 102 developers 92 project managers it's just unheard of what are they doing yeah program managers portfolio managers program son of program managers project managers iteration managers the whole stack running this maze so if you do not change your org structure forget it most companies are like this complex in today's world now there are companies that are not complex in which case that's fine yeah and then you get the metrics everybody's got their KPIs their dashboards their outcomes their goals their targets there's no way so behind this agility and we started in a number of transformations to just do this do the training you do your stand up you do your sit down you do your retrospective we trained everybody we sent them on coaches we put all the coaches in nothing changed why do you think nothing changed because of this dark dimension behind it if you do not tackle the dark dimension forget it nothing will change so you have to tackle org structure operating model and the talent because in that maze you will have poor talent people who've been in their jobs for 10 plus years they're completely stagnated they've baked into it like SAP so there's no fresh thought there's no fresh thinking yeah so back again you have to change your org model you have to lift the capability change out the talent our rule in most of the transformations I now do is 50% new talent in every team this does not mean firing 50% this means rotation bring in new blood take this person put them there take that person put them there you should get at least 20% fresh blood in now I worked with one bank which is a community bank and they told me they're 30% I've devised a little method it's called the BMI you know the BMI and this is the organizational BMI bureaucracy mass index it's an index that you can calculate how much of fat is there in your organization it's based on the ratio between enablers and doers it's quite easy to calculate and it should be around 8 to 12% most of the large companies are in the region of 30 to 50% 45% 40% unheard of so I calculated BMI ratio for this group of 35 so 35 minus 10 you've got 25% fat that means people who don't need to be in their positions saving 42 million dollars this is what I meant by cost neutral but I was called into the CEO private conversation we are a community bank and we will not fire a single person that will go down very badly in the press we cannot fire that's good that's a great statement to work with now we said okay let's take the numbers how much how many people do you hire a year well 200 how many people retire a year another hundred how many people are nearing retirement that can take the package that is another 50 how many contractors do you have 700 I gave him a picture in one day of how he could save that 32 million without firing or 42 it was without firing a single person just through stopping recruitment moving people around and cutting the contractors so you don't have to fire people for this but you have to get rid of the superfluous jobs because every additional job creates work for four other people who are productive so this is what you do in the org model you do a chair design that's optimal then you do a boss design this is the bottoms on seats these are the chairs these are the bottoms yeah so you first design the chairs then decide who has the capability to sit on that chair it's not everybody then you do your talent assessment and decide who sits on these chairs on this side operating model you have to look at your budgeting your governance your measures your rewards your management system and risk management that's what operating model is because this is what drives your company the person who has the budget will call the shots if you don't optimize that and align it with your new transformation model you're not going to change you'll still be the same and lastly you have to lift the capability you have to train them you have to coach them this is the three streams the four streams that I talk about change management org model op model and capability that's what you need to transform that's the streams now let's look at the teams never make the transformation team responsible for the transformation the transformation team is only as a service hold these leaders accountable and the teams have four streams org model op model capability and change as a service offer it as a service so these leaders can pull it give me advice on how to change give me advice on the op model you may need to standardize the operating model capability help me with training help me with coaching don't push it let them pull it and hold them accountable that's the only way to work this transformation has to be a leader led transformation it's not an army of consultants coming in my company I have maybe five or six people that's it I don't go in with an army I train the leaders in there to do this and I don't mean these leaders I mean these leaders the leaders in the org it's their responsibility not the transformation team so one of the people asked me so transformation team how can we measure our progress said you don't measure any progress these people should be recording the bread the progress they should be reporting progress not you you're just a service you can say how many people I've trained but that's not progress so the other thing they ask is what should I measure can you give me a set of measures my question to them is what do you want to improve do you want to improve productivity do you want to improve employee sat you want to employ customers sat do you want to improve quality why have you transformed the reason for your transformation will define the measures that you use does that make sense so I've got five co-leadership capabilities here I'm not going to go into the details of it the top three are at the heart of every leaders toolkit and they are not thought this this is the problem they go on leadership training courses where they are taught about what they should do not how they should do it yeah you should be like Nelson Mandela and have empathy and yeah hello what do I do on Monday and how do I do it yeah on Monday you have to create clarity of purpose you have to control without controlling yeah look at that word there oh my god Phil used control in an agile presentation of course control you tell a manager you have to give up control and here's so many people saying oh wear a squad just leave us alone we're not giving you a plan we're not giving you anything we're agile really complete misunderstanding and then we wonder why managers are scared of agile of course they're scared you have to have control but without controlling and there's a technique to do that without micromanaging design for flow this is how do you design your org and how do you design the processes around because that is not a one-off job so what happened at this happened in one of the companies I worked with so I've learned all this through bleeding and making mistakes so I've fallen down every step of the way and made a hundred mistakes and still have a hundred more to make so did the design and then walked away fantastic org design is done what do you think is happening now new people are coming into the company they've reorganized it you look back six months later there's the maze again forming it's like those creepers that grow in your house you know before you know it they're creeping up everywhere every day you have to go and trim so you have to teach the leaders how to do that and of course this is their main job how do you identify people with the right values and principles to join your company how do you define it what do you what are you searching for we all know you should now look for attitude not aptitude aptitude you can change attitude you can't change very hard so how do you ask the questions if you ask what's your attitude that's not the question in the interview you get the wrong answer yeah I have a good attitude oh very good you're hired so you have to have a way of getting this and finally this in Amazon they have one key measure for all managers and it's called decision velocity that's the speed at which managers make decisions the date the decision comes in to the date the decision is made if you wait for hundred percent of the data to make the decision you're too late you have to make the decision before that that means making a decision with uncertainty oh my god so we've talked about the streams the beams and the teams just a few minutes on the challenges the top three challenges that's all I'm going to talk about the first thing here's the org structure the CEO is sitting here the teams are here where do you think the collaboration effectiveness is is it higher at the top or higher below do you think this picture is right of course it's not right that's what it is the teams at the top do not collaborate by default the most dysfunctional teams are executive teams in terms of collaboration that's why you have the problem down below and Satya Nadella has put this so well an inch of difference at the top is a mile of difference at the bottom because now everybody down below is busy fighting trying to solve the difference here because here there's false harmony yeah yeah yeah very good yes and they go and they tell their people aren't over my dead body and it there it goes the fight goes and these people are expected to fight that's why we struggle with big day planning prioritization I see armies of people 50 people in the room doing prioritization why it's because these people don't agree that's the reason you need big room planning the reason you need safe is because these people don't agree you do not need safe if they agree so that's my biggest challenge the second one is making the hard talent calls you will have people who are not capable call it if you don't call it you're done and the last one is you do need help I've got so many teams that are start the transformation they pull in a few people few graphic people as well and they start designing the agile curriculum the agile content they start making the decks it's all about marketing it's all they've not worked agile before so get people who really know the stuff to help you because this is new yeah don't try to do a lot of it yourself but it's very hard to find that and you won't find volumes that's the point and this is the last question are we there yet when is the transformation over is the transformation over so what do you all think is could the transformation of a thousand people be over in a year give me a number yes or no no two years how about three still no when is it over it's a journey it's continuous improvement but be very careful you do want to switch off your transformation team you don't want them there forever so you have to operationalize your transformation team as soon as possible so that is in the normal way of working so you want a great way of working a great place to work great talent brings great success and that's the loop you're chasing and that's how I feel after most of the transformations so thank you very much how's that for timing good three minutes okay are there any questions ah control without controlling that sounds interesting doesn't it so you have two levers to control without controlling your first lever is the measures if you look at anybody monitoring a dashboard or any leader they are monitoring their measures if it's in a nuclear submarine they're monitoring the dials there they're not micromanaging the person behind the levers they're standing back and they're reading the high-level picture you must have your key driving metrics in place that's your first lever for control without controlling and this is not your budget I see so many managers just managing on budget or sales target or something else that's just one slither because what you measure will improve at the cost of something else so you have to balance your metrics the second lever is the wisdom of the crowd so you have your measures and you have the wisdom of the crowd you must listen to your people walk the floor go around talk to them you will hear what's actually happening that is controlled without controlling you don't have to micromanage them don't wait for the report to come to your desk forget the report walk and go and see what's happened I think this time for one more okay yeah what's the typical career journey for them you know you have people who become agile trainers coaches internal right then do they actually move to a new organization because the transformation is done so that's a that's a good that's a good question we had a coaches workshop on Sunday and one of the one of the big questions at the end is what next for coaches because coaches will not be needed you don't need coaches all the time the leaders should become the coaches you need to push off if you can't figure out where you're going next yeah whether it's to do more coaching or not then it's it's it's up to you as a person you can go within a line management function or you can continue so I look at coaching in two models you've either got the life coaching model or you've got the sports coaching model in the sports coaching model there will always be a team that needs a coach if you leave man united go to Chelsea you leave Chelsea go somewhere else yeah man city is always there if that's one one journey the other journey is you you leave and find another role so if you want somebody to give you a career then that's not to say okay you're a transformation team you'll be there forever thank you all very much and wish you all the best thanks