 Welcome back. It's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa. We've been looking at the presidential pattern that was granted to two former state governments which have actually generated a whole lot of reactions and counter reactions. And some people are saying that it is undermined in the nation's fight against corruption. Merci. You have the will to take the drive. The power of the president to grant pardon is guaranteed in section 175126 of the 1999 constitution as amended. The federal government is at last with granted state pardon to two former state governors Reverend Jolene Yama of Terrabus State and Senator Joshua Dari of Plattus State along with 157 others. The effect of the pardon, this really means that the nullification of punishment or consequence of a crime and conviction is that the governor and the governors and the 157 inmates are fully restored as if they have never committed the offense in the first place. Now this is the implication of that action by the president. Nigeria has a long history of state pardons. Now in 1966 before the Civil War, Yacobo Goan, regime pardons chief of Baphemia Walla Walla, the leader of the action group and the former premier of the the foreign western region and chief Anthony Inahore, journalist and politician at the time, who both of whom had been convicted of treasonable felony in 1963. Now the list is almost endless, but let's just see what we can do. President Sheru Shagiri pardons general Yacobo Goan to nullify the accusation that he was involved in the 1975 booker that led to the assassination of General Muhammad. Now the same Sheru Shagiri administration pardoned the Biafra leader for leading the Biafra cessation between 1967 and 1971. General Babangida guaranteed the pardon to Ndukar Irabo and Tunde Thompson, journalist with the Nigerian Guardian newspaper at the time, who were jailed under the draconian degree four imposed by President Muhammad Buhari. Now General Abdus Salami, Abubakar Pardon, General Olushegan Abbasanjo, who was convicted for involvement in a coup plot by Abbas's regime. President Abbasanjo pardoned former Speaker of the House of Representatives. Now in 1999, Saliu Buhari was convicted for forging his certificate, the famous Toronto scandal. His sins were let officially forgiven. In March 2013, President Goodluck granted a pardon to the Governor of the State, Chief Alemisia, okay, and also with General Ladikbo Daye and Major General Abdul Karim Adisa and former Managing Director of the Bank of the North, Shatima Bulimai. Now in April 2020, Buhari administration granted pardon to the former Governor of O'Bendell State, Professor Ambrose Ali and Chief Antonin Nahiro. You also have Moses Efion, Major General as well. So we'll just leave it here. The truth is, this has been this least that's going on, and the one that's most controversial is that of Alemisia, who escaped the arms of the law in the United Kingdom. Of course, the process was initiated by the then President, late President to say Moussar Yeridwa, which was now implemented by Goodluck Jonathan at a time. I would like to have Nika Guley at this point. Nika Guley, it's good to have you join us this morning on the show. Thank you very much for having me. So let's get to it. There's been a lot of reactions and conversations surrounding the pattern that the President has granted, and going through this list of patterns that's been granted, why are we surprised by this pattern to this Governor's? Because it feels like we're more concerned about the Governors that have been mentioned, rather than the 157 inmates also. So what's the surprise? It's just the practice that's been ongoing for a long time. Thank you very much for that question. I think you have given a very good intro to the subject. And that is that what the President did in terms of pardoning these people is legal. It's provided by our Constitution. So as you rightly stated, Section 175 grants the President of Nigeria that prerogative to pardon. And Section 212 grants the same powers to a state government for laws that have been made by the state. So it is nothing unconstitutional, it's nothing illegal that the President has done. But the reason why there is an uproar about this pardon, especially at this time, is that first of all, we have a government that campaigned on the basis of fighting corruption. So this government campaigned on three basic things. Fight against corruption, fight against insecurity, and then fight against economic downturn. And you can see when it comes to the economy, I will read the F9 if I'm a teacher. If we come to insecurity, it's also F9. And so one would have expected that corruption, which is the remaining bit of the tripod of promises that this government made when they were campaigning for our votes, should be fought with everything that is left in this government. And so when this same government then goes and grants pardon to people who have been convicted, not just convicted by the court of primary instance, but convicted all the way to the highest court in the land, the Supreme Court, that indeed they were corrupt. They took monies from the state that they were chief executives. And this government then gives them a clean bill of health and says, go free, your sins are forgiven. It passes a wrong message. It gives the indication that this government is not serious about the war against corruption. And so this is exactly the reason why this issue is happening. And also, if these figures were not political figures, if there were no members of the political class and especially members of the ruling party, again it will be understandable that probably the government has gone to the prisons and has looked at people who have served the substantial parts of their convictions, and there is no need allowing them to remain in prison for the rest of the time. Therefore you grant them pardon so that they can regain their freedoms. It will be understandable. But not for these political figures. And in fact, these people have not even said their just sentences halfway. We have on record that one of the cases that was rejected is a former bank MD who was convicted for more than 10 years in jail and hasn't even said two years yet. His name made it to the list. It is to tell you that all these happenings are sending the wrong messages to people that you can go ahead and be corrupt. As long as you belong to the ruling party, even if the highest court in the land convicts you, you are going to be set free. So legally the government is right, but morally the government is not right. These are the issues that are on the table. All right, Mr. Aguli, let's look at all that played out concerning these two main actors. That's Daria and of course Nyame. It took the prosecution about 11 years. There was a whole lot of healer when all of that happened. Eventually they were sentenced to 14 and 12 years. The Supreme Court later reduced the sentences to 12 and 10 years respectively. But over time, if you look at all of this, it's as though the reach like you have said, and those who are very influential, who have some ties with the ruling party are the ones who are set free, while others who might have not committed a crime is a crime, maybe smaller crimes per se. They still spend the whole life or spend the length of their jail term. They carry it to the end of it. But let's talk about reactions that have through this development. Now, the governor of Rave Estate was in Anisa some days ago, and he has said that all of this has caused some sort of embarrassment for the anti-graft agencies. That's the EFCC and the ICPC. At the end of the day, he was called for them to be scrapped because there was no essence of having an EFCC or an ICPC when they would have gone all out 11 years to try to persecute these people who have committed these crimes. And yet, after all their efforts, they are set free, go home and say no more. Yes. So, I can understand from where the governor of Rave Estate is coming from there is a sense of anger in the land on these patterns, especially for these political figures that have been convicted to the highest levels in a judicial process. But to say that the EFCC and ICPC and other anti-corruption agencies should be scrapped, we are meant to throw away the baby with the backwater, granted that the officers in these agencies will feel discouraged. And rightly so, because you cannot spend so much energy, money and your time to bring some criminals to the law and indeed get them jailed only for you to watch them set free and walk away. Because these officers that are working in these anti-corruption agencies they face a lot of hazards. You know, their lives are at stake because when you are fighting corruption, corruption fights you back. And imagine that they go through all those hazards even at the risk of their lives and they successfully prosecute and bring criminals to justice and get them jailed only for a wave of hands. And they have a presidential pardon. That is going to be very demotivating. But that is not to say that the work of these agencies should be thrown away and they be scrapped. No, they shouldn't be scrapped. The agencies are there, they are serving us and they are serving Nigeria and they are acting as a deterrent to people who would not really be corrupt because they know that the EFCC and ICPC will come after them. They are not corrupt. And the agencies are also showing evidence of successful prosecution of criminals and corrupt people. Therefore, they should be allowed to do their work. The only thing we need for them is we need to empower them, give them independence. Look, see what is happening in the UK. We are speaking to you from. The prime minister of the United Kingdom was issued a fierce notice penalty that is concept of a crime. That is what it means in the layman's language. For holding a party in Downing Street, which is the equivalent of our ASO villa during the COVID lockdown, see imagine EFCC approaching the presidential villa to question President Buhari or question the chief of staff or question anybody in government. So you can imagine the powers that security agencies have been given elsewhere. This is what we need for our security agencies. We need to empower them. We need to give them independence. The EFCC for instance shouldn't be an appendage of the ASO villa. It shouldn't be an appendage of the presidency. The head of the EFCC shouldn't be an errant boy of the president because very often you hear in Nigeria where you say the president has ordered the inspector general of police to investigate this. The president should not be ordering these people. These people should have independence as law enforcement agents to go and do their work, even if it means doing their work in the presidential villa. The same way the Metropolitan Police have done their work in Downing Street. So until we empower them like this, let's talk about them. So we have just one minute and in one minute should we be blaming the president because from the antecedent we have seen several presidents taking this decision and some people would say corrupt but it's been going on or should we look at the constitution to give so much power to the president to take such decisions. We're talking about discretion but what defines discretion at the end of the day? Yes, we have to blame the president because he didn't act with discretion. He insulted... But discretion is not defined in the constitution. Yes, it is not defined but the president by his action has insulted the sensibilities of Nigeria because he campaigned and obtained our votes on the premise that he was going to fight corruption and you cannot be fighting corruption when you are setting corrupt people free. If the president for instance had set free people who committed some other offence or they have served in office for so long or like in the case of Obasan Yuda you mentioned he was convicted of a coup and then you set him free and all of that, that is different. Laimessia is a key issue of corruption, typical. Yes, the president should be releasing people who have been convicted of corruption because if he does that then his place to Nigeria... We have to let you go now Nika Gulie. Thank you so much for being part of the show. I wish we can continue this conversation but we are out of time. We look forward to having more of you sharing your thoughts on the breakfast. Thank you very much. I have a nice name. Indeed that is the size of the show for today. We must say thank you to all of our guests who joined us today to look at creativity and innovation and of course some of the essence of the fight against corruption and then the presidential pattern that has generated controversies and reactions from various spheres in Nigeria. My name is Justin Kadone but breakfast returns again tomorrow. And if you missed out on any part of the conversation on the breakfast just follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram to subscribe to our YouTube channel where plus TV Africa and plus TV Africa Lifestyle. Many thanks for watching. I am Messi Boko. Have a great day.