 But when we see parts of the government with mixed signals, mixed information, we see the leader of the senator Kangata and the letter. That was a lot of confusion to government business in the Senate, because now Kangata is saying the BBI should not, the ground is posted towards BBI. And the president is also saying that that is the agenda, it's a constitutional moment for the country to make some laws to change the narrative. So for me, I see one, a dysfunctional government. Two, I see a president that has lost his way, as Labik said, so that we need to see a president that shows unity, shows maturity, temperament and emotional intelligence in dealing with sensitive matters that touch on people's lives. But then why do you support that he should apologize and why should he apologize in regards to this? Because he has only indicated his position, which is also a fact that he is in charge, isn't that a fact? Yes, it is a fact that is in charge. Do you need to apologize for facts? No, I've not said, I've not concurred with Labik on the apology, I haven't, because you can't apologize for something that you actually, you are, he's the president. He shouldn't be apologizing that he is reinforcing the narrative that he is, the president is in charge. But for me, the statement that he made that day, the temperament, you could see the anger when he was speaking. It means there was parts of his government that were disagreeing with his agenda and he was feeling that it was like somehow internal sabotage. So for him, he felt like this is a good platform for him to rebut, because he's been quiet. You don't say that he's seen. I want to explain why he must apologize. Apologize is for fact. When Rapudo says the president does not show leadership, when the president shows temperament in public, when he should be showing confidence to his followers, his followers is the whole country, 48 million of us, that calls for apology because he is there because of Kenya. We are not there for him, he is there for us. So when he shows that he is not in charge and yet he claims that he is in charge, there's a claim, you can see he's not in charge. Jubili itself is not functional. His deputy president is reading from a different script. He's all battalion, MP, senators and majority of the governors are reading from the different script. Does that not show that he's not in charge? And which puts me the question, should he crack the whip especially on those who are considered to be rebels or those who are considered to be against him? Or is it that, are we seeing a picture where political leaders see him as a coward? Rapudo. I absolutely agree. The president should crack the whip. He's the leader first of the Jubili party. I remember someone like culture secretary general Francis Atoli and other members are telling him to crack the whip especially on those who are rebels in his party. Consider it that the issues raised by Sereta Kangata about the BBI not actually being accepted in the rift could this also be an issue there, cracking the whip? Absolutely, I agree. The president needs to crack the whip as a Jubili party leader. The internal mechanisms within the constitution where somebody is ascribing to different political ideology of a different party, you are supposed to deal with them. So they should go through the disciplinary measures or procedures and then they deal with them. So for me I'm thinking for a government to function it has to come from a political party. So when the political party in itself first is dysfunctional then it now transcends into the government itself. So one, the president wants to fix the issue first he needs to fix his house and then now two, the errant members within the Jubili party. One they can do what the president can do is call for a caucus, for a Jubili caucus and then now they can be able to say what are the issues, what are the issues that we need to address that are disintegrating the party from within. Then if they cannot find consensus from them then they should give these errant members an opportunity to either ship out or ship in. That is it. That is how policy is supposed to be done in political parties but you cannot have a situation where as an agenda of the state is being derailed by the same people that are within the same political party. So for me I absolutely agree the president needs to crack the whip. Yes Aguko, I think we need to handle first things first. You are cracking a whip as who? He is the president of the party leader of Jubili party. Yes, the party leader. Does he have the majority of the party members on his side? That's the question he has to ask himself. Because if you look at the the formation of the Jubili party currently the deputy president and the majority of the members support. So have you taken the statistics you know? Generally. Generally. Seeing the number of the parties. From your overview. Yeah, from your overview. The deputy president enjoys the massive support within the party. Which may not be a party? Which may not be a party. Like Kangara said, it's not scientific. Meaning that he has also the ability to crack the whip? Yes. But you can crack the whip when one, you have a working party. Remember we don't have any party position on anything so far. It's just a few guys collecting themselves calling for press and saying we as Jubili as who? A party is not a secretary general alone. A party is not a party leader. A party is party members including the members of parliament, the senators, the governors and party members. But the secretary general, the leaders of a political party speak on behalf of the party. Yes, after consensus has been reached. You cannot say I'm speaking on behalf of the party yet the party has not talked. We give you what you're going to tell the media. Not to just decide. I'm going to say one, two, three. So there's no whip to crack there. In fact, in the amount of fact the party leaders should resign because they have been propagating the ideologies of a different party. Remember in the Musambini by election he supported a candidate from ODM. So on that matter alone In the spirit of the handshake. In the spirit of the handshake. Do we have a constitution guiding that? In the spirit of the handshake. There's no constitution or any directing in the party saying there's something called a handshake. We have a party called Jubilee. We have a party called ODM. In the same way we had people from ODM supporting candidates from a different party at the Kibera by elections. Kibera was a Jubilee. It was an ODM zone, right? So the respective party organs must take action on those members. Do you agree with my position? Do you agree with my position? In fact, he went even deeper and said the president should resign. Resign as he wants. He's as a party leader and once you are party leaders you don't have any mandate to lead a candidate. For me, let me jump in kindly. I'm a believer in facts, not a mantix. And sometimes we know when you discuss in politics becomes easier for you to now muddy the water and you now start having the mantix and rhetoric. One, the president did not officially campaign for the ODM candidate. There is no official line of communication for the presidents that say that the president endorsed the... But politics is a matter of perception. No, no, no. Let us not talk about the mantix here. Let us also talk about facts because we are talking about the office of the presidents. And then now two. You will not... Because will you lead people in perception? No, we are talking about politics. But you say that politics is perception. Perception plays a critical role in politics. And the leadership. Just, yes. Just as simple as a president works miracles. And then now you cut me short a bit. And then now two, when he said the president does not command the majority of support from within his political party. We can remember just not far back when the president cracked, literally cracked the whip and Mokomen was removed from the office and the Paringo senator, the Westpacot senator was put in charge. And then also Kana to say coming in and replacing the other guy and also Kimunya coming in replacing Adan Duale. So the president in himself had the numbers. For me, you have to... He has the numbers. He has the numbers. Because now if you would be able to effect those changes then, then what will prevent him to effect those changes now? But what has changed? If that language should tell us what has changed from that time to now, because at the end of the day, one thing the people said, I remember Sudi said that, that one when the president some of them as the Jubilee MPs to state house, he chided them and he talks down upon them and all that and they had to agree with whatever the president said and agreed with the changes. So if they actually were genuine that they were supporting the deputy because the deputy was of a different political inclination or opinion on how Jubilee things should be run, then they should have made their own dissenting voices there and stand and say, as we are not going to support these changes, we are going to stand on ground and we are not going to allow you to crack the whip within the Jubilee. But if he has the numbers, what prevents him from cracking the whip now? That is exactly what I said. I agree with you that the president needs to crack the whip now. But why hasn't he till now, to the point that he says that people should not look at him as a coward? He mentioned when a land has been drained and don't confuse it for a cat. If you noticed last week after the Kangata's letter, the tanga tanga group members, Oscar Sudi and the Tarakaniti governor, senator, Kisiki Kindure, they said they are not going to support, even more common, they say they are not going to support any replacement of Kangata, which means the president is already having those internal discussions with the steam that they want Kangata to be removed from the office and Murkomen and the team are saying we are not going to allow, we are going to object to that particular. So the president is in motion. I'm going to predict that within the month, Kangata probably will be gone and somebody else will come and fill that position. And saying all this all too well that I'm not supporting Jubilee party, somebody might actually be there that I'm not supporting Jubilee party, I'm not supporting Jubilee party. I mean why is it to discuss into matters that are not mine? Now joining us also in this conversation, I'm joined by Christine Kendi. Paul Esama, we were supposed to have you earlier but we are aware that maybe the BBI training the kwacha kendo go is coming to 40. Karimu Zaiba. Yes, thank you, thank you. You know following, you've heard what our panelists are saying. Should the president crack the whip on the rebels or those who are considered to be against the BBI and the stand of Jubilee party in regards to the building bridges initiative as he said that some see him as a kawa just because he is silent. How do we translate the silence for kawales? And actually translate it for democracy. That what do we mean by cracking the whip because people are opposing or people are speaking against his government. The president is very democratic and he allows people to express their democratic rights. That does not mean that he is weak and when we say that he is supposed to crack the whip why does the president need to silence the noise within Jubilee as long as they are not interfering with his work and his delivery I think on that right track. But is he dead? As he said that if you wanted to crack the whip we saw the Jubilee page where he dethroned people and the DP had been telling us that he has the numbers until that time when the page came and he realized that he did not have the numbers. That is why the DP is very careful. Today he opposes the president but when he goes to a church in Kajole he says that he will not let at 12 beads he will not open the president because he does not want that very clear line that he is opposing the president. Now let me quote the she said and I quote if you propose BBI then would be there would be people who will oppose it like Mata. It is not right to let people as allies of certain people when they oppose an issue and this is what I would like to get your take let me come to your lamek that's the only thing about this branding of we are saying gruto allies huroha allies you know right allies branding of people does it does it have the effect on chippening the discussion or is that the right way that anyone who opposes BBI is an ally to this person and anyone who supports the BBI is an ally to this other person I think Mata Karawa was very important because over the last few months there have been discussions on who and who is in this country in matters of pertaining to BBI and I agree with that because BBI at the age of 2021 Kenyans are very bright they can't read for themselves and decide what's good for them and what's not good for them a majority of people have interacted with from different political sides mostly youth don't support the BBI but does not including my good panelist here does not support BBI but does not support Ruto at the same time so it's wrong to say once you oppose the BBI you are automatically a Ruto supporter and do you support or oppose the BBI? personally I oppose the BBI you oppose the BBI and do you support Ruto? yes I do okay just according to them so it's entirely yes but does that cheapen the whole conversation? absolutely because it then changes the narrative from what we are talking about BBI to another narrative which is far away in 2022 because the current issue now is how to make sure that the BBI does not sell through because it's not very necessary the current moment we have so many issues to deal with corona the economic downfall that is a consequence of corona and bringing BBI now is a I see it's a waste of time so we should not peg the support or the position to the BBI to the presidential candidate in an election that is almost two years from today I support Mother Karua so this whole BBI discussion is premature or she ought not to be there because it takes us to politics of 2022 yes rapido I agree with Lamuq completely and uh I find that narrative you know that segmentation and and and putting people in boxes you know ideologically if you're not you're not for this person you're this way if you're not for this person you're this way I find it problematic it actually dilutes the discourse because now it takes away the content of what people need to actually discuss because for me the reasons why I'm opposing BBI are very clear the content I'm not agreeing the content it's not representative of what you want the government that they are the kind of leadership that they want to bring is not going to actually fix those problems as they say that it's going to fix you know cohesion and bringing everybody together you know malfeasance in governance and all those sorts of things those are things that can be you know solved even within the current system and the current constitution provides you know a perfect avenue and perfect laws and guidelines on how we can be able to do that so for me I oppose BBI and I don't ascribe to Ruto's ideology of the Hassler movement I'm not saying that I cannot support Ruto for 2022 it's only that he hasn't convinced me yet because for me the Hassler narrative is not good enough it needs to tell us the Hassler narrative isn't good enough it's not good enough the BBI is also not good enough it's not good enough for me personally the reason why I'm saying the Hassler narrative is not good enough for me is one when Ruto rebutted the president yesterday he said I voted for the president not because he's a kikuyu but because of the agenda that they wanted to bring to the country the transformational agenda my question between William is eight years down the line they have failed the country we have seen that evidence of the country has been mismanaged for seven years so if he's saying that now he wants to take over in 2022 what will he do differently that he hasn't been able to accomplish today why enough is as the deputy president as the deputy president so the question should be to the DPs people and his handlers and these strategists the DPs should sell as his agenda he should tell us that if I'm the president from 2022 this is the kind of Kenya that you guys are going to have but he hasn't done that he hasn't done that for me he hasn't done that we haven't seen the deputy president's agenda my panelists can actually tell us if they've had the DPs saying that for me in agriculture this is what I'm going to do in economics this is the economic model that I'm going to adopt I believe you know the theory behind this Hollywood Borough issue is it that because of job creation yeah thereby speaking his agenda no my problem with that narrative is this when we really simplify a very complex issue of job creation you know when you want to you want to create jobs the role of the government is to create an enabling environment where opportunities will be can be created but you cannot say the government in itself like for example I'll give you an example Nigerian government the biggest employee in Nigeria is the film industry is all the government itself so the government should be able to create an enabling environment ease of doing business not only the parameters of the world bank but actually when you're going to register a business how easy is it to you if a young person they're saying that young people can be able to access capital how practical is that how what are the success stories that you say Oroboraila Diga said that the issue and I quote the issue of film world cannot bring change to this country there has come out as tenants to build a united kenda this is what Uhuru and myself stand for end of quote can they and Ram I am dying to speak first of all I would like to I agree partly we go out lambing that anyone opposing BBI does not does not support not everyone who's opposing BBI supports the the deputy president I personally support BBI this is 2021 2021 an year before the general election in 2022 this is a year when we are we are meaning the agenda of hustler versus dynasty kind of campaign a very dangerous campaign because now we have divided the country into hustlers and dynasties without a definition of who her hustler is where you see it you may think you are a hustler but to another person when you go out there you are in a suit that person sees you as a dynasty when you are in a car in a Toyota 110 you are a dynasty to the border border guy operating there so when we when we advance such a campaign it is very dangerous for this country and you don't understand anyone who says that it's too early for BBI because this is 2021 we are a country that goes into cyclic violates every five years because constitutional change is a process and this is the time to change the constitution now they change the constitution just that it's not changing the constitution actually it's amendments to parts of the constitutions the only reason you may go into a referendum is because there are parts of the constitution that cannot be amended without a referendum so when we start saying that 2021 this is January 2021 a country that started campaigning immediately after the 2017 elections when we say that it is too early for us to speak about BBI for us to speak about how we are going to address the issue of post-election violence when are we going to address the post-election violence in 2023 mach when we are advancing for another handshake Abuko maybe I can ask my good friend kendi how does the BBI intend to address the challenge of post-election violence exact yeah but you see that's the other problem that we have in this country everyone who is opposing BBI does not give a solution there are people who came and said this is country this is Kenya America has its own problem we saw what was happening in America when you don't address these things this is what happens when we sit and bury our heads in the sand and forget that we have 42 tribes in Kenya among the 42 tribes whether we like it or not we have the majority tribes in Kenya the tribe with the majority of the population the tribal makers in the country the people when they feel underrepresented they will cause and say kura zote zili kuwa zitu we this is you know what BBI calls it it's among rail that it's not the Jaman Sheffard and the Chihuahua this is among rail the Kenya that the problems facing America are not the same problems facing for the Kenya our problems are very tribal now that sorry sorry I'm still going to explain it no no no that when we make sure that it is inclusive that right now we will look at the cabinet in 2017 in 2013 when we looked at the cabinet it had kikuyus and kalingins that's a conversation that we need to have that right in 2022 we cannot be looking at the cabinet and we are looking at it the president is kikuyu the deputy is kalingin the cabinet are kikuyus and kalingins when we have the what we calling the expanded executive which is not even expanded it's what we have as majority national assembly leader who will become a deputy prime minister the prime minister will also be a a minister will also be a member of parliament so there will be a dozen of address inclusivity it does address inclusivity when you create the position of the opposition you see we were very not optimistic but we refuse to accept reality that when a person with 4 million votes is completely out of government what do you expect to happen to this person this person is going to fight for space when you have the position of the opposition leader which is an opposition which is a position that's being brought back by BBI it takes care of that vacuum where yes okushinda collection but you still have your functions complete with your shadow cabinet that you do not go to what angatanga is doing right now the government is not doing the government is not doing you're also tasked with giving solutions to the country that before the minister of finance releases the budget the shadow cabinet from from the opposition releases its budget then now we can start the opposition from there that shadow cabinet but here umga at this price the government is giving us umga at this other price now i know you have joined you have something to say but i want us to take a short break when we are back and be coming back to you and rapuda i also know you had something to say in regards to this tell us what you think about this conversation the hashtag is why in the morning at ramahuko at one two five four channel let's take a short break after this we are we are we are back with more remember tribalism versus ideologies where should we base our discussion let's take this break and be back in a bit