 This is the Neo Books Call for Monday, January 8th, 2024, our first call of the new year. We skipped two calls because it was exactly Christmas Day and it was exactly New Year's Day and it just seemed like resting with family was the thing to do. If I look strange today, it's because I've got a screen, a large screen next to my laptop. My camera is over here and I put the zoom on the big screen and I'm trying to figure out what's the best arrangement for all this but it means that I'm kind of looking away from you all the time because right now I'm looking at Klaus, right now I'm looking at Rick and it's a little strange. So I may move stuff around for future calls but this is just an experiment. I may also just pull out an old Logitech camera and hang it on top of the big new screen but I do feel my ergonomics are better here so that's good because I'm looking up and I'm used to sort of crouching over my laptop for decades so this is good. Anyway, Klaus, any thoughts or progress on your manuscript? Where you've been? Yeah, I'm sort of feeling my way along the path where it wants to take us and so right now the emphasis is on conveying a need to reduce meat consumption and get consensus around that within many NGOs because that has been a debate that has become paralyzed so where groups have conflicting opinions and can't agree on how to move forward. That's one thing and then the other thing is that I wanted to get forward, move forward and create some kind of communication with students and the college crowd to engage in the menus of change program and so to make this exciting and a fun project to explain how cuisines from around the world have worked with very little meat and with very small portions of meat using meat as an ingredient which is still practiced in most cultures around the world except in the so-called new worlds Australia, Canada and the United States where basically you had settlers coming in with an abundance of game available and actually no agriculture yet that would provide grains and potatoes and so on so you had an emphasis on meat simply because of its availability and that sort of anchored itself into our culture here and so to change that to make it fun and exciting would be a really nice task and then I'm starting a workshop next week where I'm focusing on industry so these are senior level CEOs and members of companies everything from farmers to processors logistics providers, consultants and they have so we have a topic and I will be moderating a workshop for us to approach sort of meta level issues that will help us to stitch together an understanding, you know a hypothesis of building a farm to table supply chains up to and including the engagement of the consumer so we have 13 people Sheen Belanger joined he's going to do the systems mapping into process he's actually quite engaged already and so I'm looking forward to that and then we I would like to do this OGM style where we have one drop-in meeting like our Thursday meeting and then spin off from there specialized discussions into very narrow topics like grains, flour, sub topics that require a unique path so that's sort of where I'm at I like that, I like a bunch of things and you said so many things that I want to go back to a couple things when you started talking about reducing meat consumption the first thing I thought of was this sort of terrible false dichotomy between oh my god you want us to stop doing something and we like it and so forth and the idea that in America vegetarian food is kind of lousy like we have a I'm still a omnivore but I almost became a vegetarian when we visited Chennai on the eastern coast of India and there was a breakfast buffet that had vegetarian and non-vegetarian items in a buffet and I started on the vegetarian side and I never ever made it over or missed the non-vegetarian side because everything was so delicious and different and interesting and on some of the things I couldn't tell what grain I was eating I couldn't tell if it was rice or barley or what I had no idea and it was all delicious and remarkably different one from the next also we did a homestay in Ulaanbaatar in Mongolia there we go and we like we got dinner which was some lamb and rice and there were just a couple little bits of lamb sprinkled in the rice I was sort of surprised and then I was like oh this works just fine but the proportions were completely different and this was sort of meat frugality out in the middle of the step because we were out in the middle of no place and it was also really interesting for me and so I love menus of change because it's the Culinary Institute of America saying hey look here are ways we can eat really really well with better effects for the planet and I think that's a fabulous thing to do so I'm I I'm interested partly all of that plays out into I can envision a call one or more focus calls of the kind you just described in class where people talk about well how do we convince people to eat better rather than how do we convince people to eat less meat and you know eat better and as a consequence less meat but here's a path and here's how here's what that looks like here and here's some great ways to do it etc a small added note there's a little startup called Heyday H-E-Y-D-A-Y which makes canned food they'll do like last night I used one of their cans to make a harissa chickpeas and cabbage and a bunch of other veggies and I put some pork in there but they use canning even though it's very old school and people are avoiding the center of supermarkets so canning is incredibly sustainable because it's highly recyclable like cans make it back into the system etc etc extremely non-perishable this thing will last forever and then their ingredient mix and all that is very sustainable so they're trying to get funding they're an OVF company which is the Oregon Venture Fund which is a company that April is an investor in and an active participant she will join and do due diligence calls and all that it's almost like a crowdsourced venture fund but I sale that because there are companies out there that are trying to get more attention for doing the right thing within the system oh it's its internet connection well we'll just have to chat about what he was talking about Stuart you were wanting to say something I have something to say but I want Jerry to hear it also and let's trust that he'll be back although this may be a a precious way of seeing our future oh he's coming on he's coming on on a different channel is he coming on a different channel there we go he's left his old self behind I know our power went out completely I'm just dialing in on my cell phone now but we lost all juice here really yeah so what I wanted to say and I showed up a few minutes late so I'm not sure of the context but I'll jump in to the specifics that we're talking about you know my own experience I was actually a vegetarian from age you know from my mid 20s to mid 30s and somewhere around my mid 30s I was introduced to a community and somebody in this community said to me you know you seem to have a lot of mucus in your system if you did a citrus fast you could get rid of that well citrus fast as it turns out the core of this community was a raw food community was in a scene diet which was the diet that supposedly Jesus ate but what I wanted to say and this picks up on what Jerry was saying um they used sprouted and fermented sauces for raw food and whenever I would go over to the kind of clubhouse where people would eat and the center of it was a guy who survived his um not prostate cancer but a cancer that's very virulent it usually takes people out very quick he lasted like 10 years on his raw food diet but anyway whenever I would go over and partake of these sauces I would leave there after a meal and wonder what kind of drugs I was on I mean it was just it was just absolutely amazing and tasty um and tasty and I have leaned towards um you know more and more vegetarian as I have um grown through the years um and I love to cook vegetarian um and yeah there's delicious vegetarian food only because my acupuncturist um suggested it and I found that it has value will I have a steak once in a while because of the blood condition that I have um so yeah that's one of the key pieces I think to the whole movement to getting people to think differently um about food even you know an example would be um I forget what they're calling it McDonald's has got some kind of a new menu aside from just um uh you know um burgers there's a whole new um line of food that they're offering you know Klaus you probably know more about that than I do yeah Bill Ma had a spook on it because they are sort of dialing in to you know young people fancy names and crazy stuff yeah but uh to your comment my daughter did some raw choosing and she ended up with stage 4 uh lymphomaic cancer uh oh um she digested so much glyphosate in the process because our vegetables are just loaded with glyphosate unless you go for organic and she was a student she didn't have the money for organic and so we couldn't figure out what in the world would have caused this very aggressive cancer coming on for her um but we had her clean within 10 weeks by doing a combination of chemotherapy with a supported diet and so there's a way I don't want to get too deep into it but there is a way of of aligning your diet uh in support of uh of glyphosate um but what we so the reason Jesse is here is because um we talked about a communication strategy to uh actually anybody but maybe preferably younger the younger folks um to get them excited about a planned forward way of eating you know with reduced sizes of meat and maybe every once in a while no meat at all in it so Jesse do you want to say hi and talk a little bit about that yeah I would love that thank you um I missed the beginning um but I kind of heard Jerry talk about trying to move away from getting people off of meat but more um getting them from the sad diet to what I called the glad sad to glad and I just um app.com I'll put it in there right there Jerry around your phone so you can um download it right there but it just released this weekend and you'll see the landing page is all about um trying to get people away from ultra breast foods and into more whole plant based foods which I call plant which are planned forward in other words for plant powered and it's free to just start on morning you get to choose the foods that you love and then really it's about educating people on how to eat a plant based diet um depending on meeting where they're at so if they just want to put two more pieces of broccoli in their plate a day great that's a win as long as it's a little bit more than um they did before and it's every food has links to videos and education for Dr. Greggers um um partnership and we are also partnered with whole harvest which is a meal delivery whole food delivery um thing that was just suggested to me and then we became affiliate so I'm really excited about it but this is a passion of mine and I do think um awareness is the first step and then um giving people an opportunity to just taste new foods and diversify what they're used to um that's the next step and I would love to have just say would you mind introducing yourself you may I don't know who you are oh oh hi um so I met Jerry 20 years ago and I don't know um through a TED talk you know I don't always um we reconnected a few years ago just got back into OGM and um we've been connecting and I've been on the call a few times um not a lot enough for you to meet you um but I own um I would call it a diet and lifestyle um educational company and we create apps and infographics anything that people wellness practitioners need or um leaders need to help um people can get have a more healthy diet and lifestyle so this is just an app that was one of um any offerings that um I have through a company called Dave Almser and I'll put the link right here that's interesting you mentioned Dr. Greger as well are you Michael Greger yeah yeah I'm very familiar with this work yeah yeah all the app has integrated into his video the videos that he provides and all the wonderful resources um we're integrating his his education as well and um I'll be at the conference in March or April in Seattle and he's going to be speaking there as well so fantastic yeah and I wanted to uh see if we can write a neobook nugget now focused on Jesse's topic um and have Jesse frame the the questions and use the AI to assist us in in developing that and then also set up an AI for Jesse herself um I'm going to just for a second um just for a moment I've technical difficulties on my end but all the power went out and then April came up certain that it was a disaster that we needed to call PGE immediately uh and as I was explaining to her that they're probably they probably know about it a text an automated text came in from PGE saying we know that the power is out in your area and their estimate is 2pm for repair so I'm kind of without resources I don't know that I'll hang out for the record because I'm not sure that any of my chargers are charged and I should probably preserve a little power on my phone in case it gets worse but anyway back to our regularly scheduled program you may need to manage yourselves today more than me sort of doing whatever it is I do on the calls but I'm excited for this and I would love to set up something so that we can talk about transitioning to different ways of eating and and I think that there's so much of that is cultural um I had an article recently where it was an old article from the New Yorker talking about pizza and it turned out that pizza was a new thing in in the United States in like the 50s we did not eat pizza regularly pizza wasn't the cultural thing we didn't have all these pizza stores everywhere never mind fast food pizza chain and so people were sold pizza and then way way way way later were sold sushi and now you can kind of order anything from any place on the planet by calling somebody and the human will actually walk up to your door and drop it on your door step which is a little bit crazy and terrible for the planet I think anyway I think it's exciting to do all this kind of stuff and I will lurk for a while and I may have to drop off thank you and Jerry I really would love to have your um the company you're talking about with the canned foods I would love to partner I'm looking this is I can't do anything without partnership so I want to look up arms and any introductions cool I will send it to you because the reason why is because the behavior change happens that's my background is in behavior change and it happens in the grocery store when you step into the grocery store and so helping people with grocery lists and not just the meals but the grocery list that's really where I'm going at exactly very briefly if you go to heydaycanning.com I can't use the chat right down very easily heyday with an H-E-Y so heydaycanning.com is the URL and more later yay thank you Jerry before you just triggered me because it so happened when I was at the World Expo in Dubai they had lots of charging stations around because you'd walk around using your phone and it would run out and I thought this is I was great idea but so when I was there I actually picked up two extra batteries that I charged for the event rather than having to rely on the charge so that was the thing so I always have two ready on standby for those situations so from a non-techie to a techie and I'm trying to remember where the hell did I put my little rechargers because I haven't used it for long I'm pretty sure they're drained like right now if there was an emergency where would I get two days worth of cell phone power right I'm not sure so thank you well there's one other thing as well and that is you can get these super charged batteries that you can jumpstart your car so I have one like that available all the time so I have one like that as well except it's in the trunk of the car and I need to pull it out and recharge it and keep it in the house instead of in the car but yeah perfect back to your regularly scheduled program Klaus anything else you want to go ahead what I was going to say is one of the things that I'd like to do on this call today is I haven't you know been on this call for I don't know four or five weeks something like that and I'm just wondering where the larger project is and you know where we're going with it that may open a big can of worms aside from the lovely discussion about food supply and of course what popped into my mind as Jesse was speaking about needing partners was my body of work which I'm now calling getting to relationship as kind of a critical piece of the puzzle for my own musings and meandering so here we are let me take a tiny swing at that before we go back to the specifics that we were just on and I think you're only opening a tiny tin of anchovies it's not a big can of worms and depending on whether you like anchovies or not I happen to really love I love anchovies anchovies are awesome anyway so partly happening in parallel one of them is Klaus has in Google docs a manuscript that is his version one or book one or something like that that Pete and I need to sort of chunk up and figure out how to turn into a neobook because the neobooks idea is that you nuggetize a manuscript you break it down into smaller pieces which then live on the web but that's not a natural way for Klaus or others normally to write because we're all used to things like word and google docs so there's sort of an intermediate step that Pete and I have to figure out to do in some effective way so that it doesn't take also a whole mess of time because editing manuscripts is time-consuming because you actually have to read and pay attention to everything you're doing then we've had some really nice meta conversations in fact I think last fall we had which I guess is three weeks ago Rick and Pete and I had a lovely go around about neobooks and how they work and we were kind of exploring the ideas in really nice way so we were going way deeper into the concept of neobooks and figuring out how it all might play out and I think we're inventing the thing as we try to prototype the thing which is good it's how things should happen and I know that as I'm writing nuggets in obsidian because I'm writing directly into obsidian I'm hitting all these interesting different questions like how do I think like a neobook I think like a nugget so that I'm writing repurposable pieces of prose and then other pieces that are ligaments or connectors that aren't necessarily repurposeable because they're specific for a particular work but how do I separate those things how do I link them what metadata should they have how do I and then Pete and I are talking about how do we even attach metadata to a nugget so that it's ignored when you roll up the book but visible when you visit the nugget if that does that make sense yeah so that's roughly it and then we have four maybe five kind of manuscripts in progress and so far as you would consider what you've been in the conversation so I consider yours as one of them yeah Rick has his, Klaus has his I'm working on a design from trust and then sort of intersections with the potential other neobooks which is one of the neobooks ideas is hey every book doesn't have to have all the unique content and nuggets across books and thereby make a collection of intertwined things including books that other people write that disagree with your book or take it in new directions by reusing some of the nuggets but doing something very different with them for example and that's in the future but that's kind of where we're heading Pete and I have a bunch of work to do at some point figuring out how to roll out a manuscript that's ready to go that's nuggetized into an EPUB format where we're sort of looking at every now and then we'll have a follower talk about the infrastructure needed to do that anybody else with thoughts or comments about the state of the project or additions that's a great update Jerry thank you thank you I would add a maybe slightly different perspective it just so happens I just finished the book The Mist of Normal and you know reading more about Graham Mattes life work is a very interesting character I mean he took 10 years to write that book and you know if you think of the trajectory of what most people do if you've written books you know what it's like you know you spend a year or two whatever the length of time you you curate this content and then you know after that it's all about marketing can you get the message out and I just would like to implode that style of authorship in terms of thinking about how can it be more generative in that adopting other people into the process so that it's a constant evolving process and the ownership, the notion of plagiarism it's very topical but you know the notion of plagiarism is very much framed from an individualistic perspective and you know if you're in the commons you know then the notion of individual ownership of information becomes sort of mute because you know people are going to copy and borrow things and frame it and give it different words and they're saying the same things but it's really about how to create a learning community and how can you combine the new book idea with something that is a book without end because wicked problems you know we're never going to solve them but we might make them less problematic less nasty, less wicked less wicked and maybe actually do good So I really think this calls for a complete transformation in the whole way we think about collaborative and transformational learning. I'm not even sure what that is yet or how it manifests but I certainly have an idea about the way it needs to evolve which is very it's antithetical to everything you do in academia which is where I came from so Rick I love that and thank you also for grounding me in the actual purpose of the Neo books because the book artifacts of the Neo books projects are shiny objects that are bait for people to come into the project and jump into the thing you just described because rethinking how science you know research manufacturing everything else actually happens and the other quick thing is what's the platform for doing that on so for example I mean I'm a newbie to discord but discord does have some functionalities to it that lends itself to it but it's not a sign from what I can see for that purpose and so how do you create this sort of you know this sort of knowledge framework system where people can come in and co-opt and connect and you know elaborate or you know whatever I mean it's really creating an innovation and improvisation stage where people can come in and enter into flow states and start discovering things other people may have discovered or they've discovered something completely new and it's just a completely generative environment very briefly without getting too geeky discord alongside Instagram are matter most thing that's like Slack and a bunch of other possible platforms are all flow platforms instead of stock platforms meaning there's a stream, there's a flow there's an ongoing flow of conversation sometimes if you miss a piece of that conversation it's just gone because you'll never find it sometimes you can scroll back up and see the whole conversation like you can on Slack matter most but none of them really help you curate a body of work the way Wikipedia or Wikis do that's why Pete and I are in love with Wikis is that Wikis are sort of static static collective social works that get better over time and hence his efforts with massive Wiki to emulate a Wiki using markdown files which are brutally simple almost plain text files they're just a notch above plain text files on GitHub which is a public repository of files and then playing with that playing with that is building blocks and then doing something above that that starts to look like the more complicated scenario you just painted but that's the reason why we're using these primitive building blocks to make writing a bit more awkward go ahead Steve thank you Klaus so a few thoughts so in some sense Gavramate's book was here's everything I know I mean it's a 500 page book here's everything I know everything I've learned and I was able to put it under this umbrella which of his books are you referring to now? the most recent normalcy there is no normalcy the myth of normal the myth of normal and in some way the the Neo book manuscript I'm working on is follows that principle it's like I've taken three different aspects of my own work and put it together because I think that coherent whole of getting to relationship working title is all about collaboration it's all about how is it that we can effectively speak to each other how is it that we can maintain relationship because that's at the core I co-authored a book this is not a new concept by the way when I co-authored collaboration 2.0 2008 somewhere in that time frame or 2003 I can't remember it was a response to the Silicon Valley's desire to cut down on real estate costs to have people work from home I never thought that it would have as much relevance till we hit COVID and Silicon Valley has to some degree abandoned that as a huge mantra but during that period of time there was somebody in the valley and I can't remember who it was who was talking about what they called a living book which is essentially what the neobook concept is living a living book we never took that further because my collaborator was just I didn't want to work with him this terrible my co-author that's a separate story whole different story and that happens the notion of ownership and IP concerns is something that I personally had let go of a long time ago I want people using it I don't care about ownership or attribution or any of that stuff might seem antithetical for an attorney to think that way but that's just my thinking the stuff happened to come through me you think it's valuable great use it that's where I was a little tweaked when the news of the New York Times lawsuit against I don't know whoever it was Microsoft I think for plagiarism for using some of their content they are AI algorithms the writing process itself and this is where the Neo book concept I think is so so wonderful the writing process in class I'm sure you've experienced this it's a way of clarifying your ideas exactly when you start to use words in a written format it makes you focus especially something that other people are going to see it makes you focus and it clarifies your own ideas so the idea of having collaborations around that is beautiful because that's a way of growing a particular body of content from the different perspectives that are going to bring to it so I just wanted to share those pieces love that thank you anybody else yes I found that exactly what Stuart is saying but then also amplified by the use of AI to go into a specific topic and then realizing that my assumptions wouldn't be cooperated and forcing me to go deeper into something coming up with stuff I would have never thought of on my own so that really is an accelerator that is just incredible I could have not written what I was writing there without that support I was just telling that story class to a guy who's on the AI team at Metta at dinner last night the story that we used AI so that just pushed it into a completely different field and in the process of going from chapter to chapter it spawned new ways of thinking so remember when we sort of jointly shaped the first volume and then Bill came in and said I don't know what to do it's not one book so that brought me on it's one book and there's a purpose behind these three chapters so let's put an umbrella over it and then see here is the storyline so that's one thing that's very regenerative but then the other thing is I just started this newsletter and that's how I apply the nuggets to individual components because the book itself is sort of overwhelming it requires someone to sit down and think about so much depth in it because of the AI component that adds so much content but when you put it into a newsletter you can focus on just one topic and really explore that one topic and build it I'm sort of applying COU's thought process in the way I'm building these newsletters because I want to start at the basic and then go into more and more depth and refinement towards the idea of the a new book which is really to say our food is at the base of the pyramid it's a very basic need and it's in trouble and it's causing a lot of damage to the environment to human health and so on so it must change but recognizing this is a deeply emotional topic and people are very attached to their way of living which is much expressed through food when you think every holiday has a certain recipe attached to it so how do you engage here in ways where people on their own volition start thinking differently about food so that's why I'm bringing in things like theory U and spiral dynamics to to open up to open up a very specific language and I literally can go to chat GPT and say translate this into an orange blue spectrum and it does it it's just crazy now my knowledge goes to knowing what spiral dynamics is doing but to actually execute on it I mean I couldn't do this so for that purpose AI is super important I actually developed a GPT now and chat GPT just came out with a way to commercialize your GPT did you see that that just send out an email this week saying if you have developed a chat part you can put it online into a store they're setting up basically a store where and Jesse this may be something you want to think about you can actually develop a chat GPT and commercialize it in the chat GPT a commerce store now and that could be helping people with intelligence to do what you're trying to develop as a product so anyway so that's it's a massive structure that really helps you to build out the story for someone who has never written a book in his life like me that don't have the training for it and all of this this has been this has been a pretty amazing ride actually Klaus on a previous you went there I think when you brought this up and I mentioned Jerry was just to hear your story of the book you're doing as a way of inspiring other people to do the same you know I don't know enough about the story and I thought I'd love to hear it at some point you know but I just want to go back to something that Stuart said about relational process what you figure for me was a book that I got involved with editing this was back in the mid 90s and it was called partnerships and healthcare transforming relational process and you know this is my first experience of editing a book and I tell you it's really painful you know because you have so many different authors you're trying to develop a coherence across the different areas and it probably took I bet you're close to two years to be able to the synthesis of this conference ongoing communication with the authors and going back and forth fitting into a regular work life in that process actually is something that I was referring to earlier why keep it constrained why not have this open so it's really an extension an elaboration of a prior experience to what I was just talking about so it looks as though Gary may have gone off at that point but anyway I'll put the link in for that so you can but I want to come back to you were saying Stuart I think the relational process the relational process in multiple dimensions relationship to food, relationship to nature relationship to everything how good what's the quality of relationships duh and at the moment we are in history okay it's an interesting juncture because the culture we've been so much a part of is so much an individualized culture exactly it's the aggrandizement of the individual and everything drives that in terms of the individual success and accomplishment and here we know that the only way through the morass we're in is by working with others exactly that change of psyche is just it's a critical piece of the puzzle I agree with you Rick, what are you working on for your NIO book yeah actually I was gonna I'll share a brief LinkedIn article let me just put this into the chat actually and just give me a second here while I pull it up you know it's funny because I've been playing around with Dolly and I've been blown away by the visual images that you're able to create with it and people have said how did you make that and I said well you use the prompts and do whatever and somebody who's a grabbing designer said you've got a hidden talent there and I said I don't think so but anyway let me show you this if you look at this image here if you click on the link you'll see actually I could share my screen if I got screened here but if you just click on the link and you know the title is how my January 6 2024 marked the start date to break the cult trance of mass psychosis burn down orthoteranism and resurrect democracy with equity and this is sort of not directly right but it's certainly it's sort of an adjunct to it and the idea behind it here is instead of telling people what they should think I'm asking questions to help them learn how to think not what to think and when you make that shift it does change how you write and it's antithetical to a lot of things that are currently being done so it really requires a mindset shift from learners perspectives and it's really about creating learning communities where people can come together and get involved in generative strategic dialogue and civil discourse but you have to create a space where people feel safe and you know you don't get involved in heightened emotional reactivity some emotional react is vital because it's very important to understand what triggers you but when it gets out of hand and it just ends up in dysfunctional polarization game over it's just a battle between different fundamentalist belief systems so how can we create spaces where people can learn together basically I mean it's interesting Rick one of the aha moments that I think I had this morning or maybe it was yesterday was in the Neo Book manuscript whatever you want to call it and I'm working on I've identified like 33-4 areas of our social structure that need attention at the present moment but the aha moment for me was oh I don't have to solve each one of those but I know I pointed at it and I know there are people out there who have expertise in that area and to get people cooking on each one of those things that would be a wonderful a wonderful thing yeah cause others are way further down the curve than I yeah well not many well for some of these individual things but I think so class thank you but thank you for that Jesse why don't you talk a little bit about your plants and where you want to go with this I think it's all through partnerships and I've noticed the more and more I'm engaged with people like Dr. Krager and Plantricius which certifies products to be plant based the more and more I'm getting introduced into a circuit if you will and boy if the more we can help each other the farther we can go quicker so it's all through partnership and I think we all have the same kind of thought process that we're in the commons that we are we're not in it for the money we have to be sustainable obviously and yeah and we're not doing this alone so that's where I'm going what do you what do you see as your target market we're doing A.B. testing right now it seems to be we're targeting those who are in the standard American diet and wanting to just add the ultra process kind of foods and start learning more about putting plants on their plates and enjoying them and then there's the people who are already in it like the lifestyle of like vegans who understand the impact of every single thing they purchase and they're a little easier to convert to whole food plant based and they're very unhealthy too a vegan can be very unhealthy is what I mean so I mean those two um target markets and and figuring out which one's going to be the best I don't know yet vegans and vegetarians are kind of the same yeah so if you if you spend this a little bit further down um and look into population groups types of let's say students the type a type of socio-economic uh hoping how would you define that um I think I need some advisement about that because I don't know enough data I'd like to start with the data and what does that inform us to to communicate yeah I think they're way more way more smarter than you know for some reason I have the most people using this app are 15 older actually 16 older and um and when I asked uh did a survey the qualitative and quantitative results showed that um the reason why they just want to lose weight biggest reason so target should um always talk about the weight and I have infographics on all the those stats but when it comes to younger people it's more about the environment and the impact that they're having because um they haven't had yes a lifelong version of um eating lifestyles well I don't even know I can't even tell you that the data will inform me that's okay that's great my thing has been for the longest time trying to reach what I call the greater Thunberg generation and I've been hopelessly unsuccessful doing it but when you think about the passion this group has to go out and protest and uh and be so vocal about climate change and all the details and yet they have no clue about the impact of their personal dietary choices uh what they have the impact they have on the environment so I think that to reach that group seems to be a worthy uh worthy target we just have to we just have to elect Trump and he'd be the role model for all of these things that we're talking about the role model the imagery the um yeah yes you know you're reminded there's something uh there's a podcast series you may know this person but I haven't followed him a little while he's got a podcast called Eat for the Planet I don't know if you're familiar with that one or not um but he's written a book on it and I mean he's certain I haven't listed his podcast in a while so I mean that might be a partnership arrangement I was surprised that you said your demographic was 16 above and you know when when Klaus was talking about the benefits of canned food what immediately came to mind for me was when I went to Walmart and I found this can of black beans that was really spicy and it was exceptional I knew exactly where it was in the store and I can remember the brand but I know where it is in the store and they stopped stocking it and I just was astounded because I could eat one can of that and that was the meal for me and if you think of you know what are the best plant based spicy canned foods that students who are busy who can live very cheaply and eat for the planet you know so I don't know if you got the top 10 most interesting canned foods that you can rank or put on offer and say this meal will cost you two bucks because I just don't know how good because actually I have a little bit of a bit of a negative thing towards I shouldn't but I do because I think fresh is better than canned but canned is good so can you shed any light on my request I think that's a great idea in terms of cost because there is a myth that it costs more to go whole food plant based it's kind of the same organic also so but when you're talking about canned then the conversations just changes and really it's important about changing the conversation and our impact by asking the right questions all conversations change so that's a really good question how much does it cost yeah and most young people now most students are on AI you know I mean it's really the penetration into the college world of AI is just astonishing so if you have a tool to share there I think this would put it to use that's pretty incredible and also on this segmentation we just talked about I think AI can really help us to flesh that out Stuart you had something on your mind well the thought of how related this is that the idea of you know how and what we eat is the lifestyle choices and how that gets reflected in weight tied into the farming piece I mean boy when we talk about win-win-win-win-win-win it's across the board in terms of the potential yeah yeah it's a challenge that has been around for a while I mean because it is just so darn emotional and so tight to your lifestyle and everything and in some ways it's a great microcosm for the macrocosm that we're in because it involves corporate profits it involves change of habits and there it is there it is yeah and that's really a good point I already had one of the participants of the workshop that we're starting up next week contact me wanting to make sure how do I frame this it's on so many words that the interest of big producers and big buyers doesn't get derailed with too much decentralization and deflection and why this is I'm just going to moderate the discussion guys I'm not going to and therein is the edge or the rub or the challenge you drop in the economic piece and it skews everything and how do we manage the transition of that without creating all the dislocations yeah you know a lot of this has to do with mindful eating is kind of how I sure is it and when you sit down at a meal it's really easy to think about and plan about the future or ruminate about the past but where rarely are we practicing presence in our eating habits and it's a very habitual energy that we carry on from generation to generation so part of my goal is to support the mental model of sitting down and being with your food so that you really are thinking about it and where it comes from and the impact it has and I don't want to take that angle in the beginning or the marketing but when you're in there there's a whole section on what to do before a meal during a meal and after a meal which borrows a lot of the Buddhism versions of presence but trying to keep it you know the secular part is the issue so just wanting to make it mindfulness about mindfulness but talk about the issues of economics and the conversations start changes and those conversations are facilitating a lot of it is either future tripping or ruminating and rarely do we experience the now and respecting the people in front of us like we do with our meals it's not separated oh, here we go why doesn't so you just had this fantastic school of it mine doesn't want to do it oh yeah, you have to turn that on and you got to do that part too like this how do you turn it on ah, there we go oh, I say okay the idea of making the declaration of patience how are you going to eat you know I'm going to be vegetarian creates that mindfulness around when you're eating with friends when you're going out to a restaurant that mindfulness becomes more present it is a lifestyle for sure sure and the story how to get there is very visible and really has it's a big tent approach because for some people health is everything and healthful minding your own personal health and everything people are fascinated with this topic all the time because people are basically so sick because so much of the food just makes you sick the key in awareness unfortunately that's where the pharmaceuticals come in and where people get preyed on but it's a huge topic and for others it's your water, your air, your environment but I would say health is probably the biggest trigger for people to change I would actually say weight is bigger than health it's really hard to meet people yes when they are sick they'll do anything but it's preventative work is really important and the way that preventative is kind of like weight because weight really leads to cancer a lot of the obesity is associated with cancer so by saying hey your weight actually does need to be addressed because if you keep on doing this you're going to end up potentially having illness a fear tactic a little bit but really it comes down to beauty a lot but it's an entrance point, it's an entrance point to the conversation that's fine, I'll take it Jesse I presume you're familiar with intuitive eating the way you were talking about exactly yeah so I thought because that is not easy to impart to people but one thing that I'm a family physician, I was trained in lifestyle medicine that's how I got to know Michael Greger oh please download the app and tell me what you think well I certainly will because I used to go to the American college of lifestyle medicine fairly frequently but I've fallen off the radar screen from that you're probably familiar with a 5-2 diet as well which is 2 days a week you get down to 600 calories and actually to me even if you fail at it and I tell people if you can't do it but just trying to reduce it disrupts the chow down mentality because you have to become self-conscious of what you're doing what your impulses are and then when you start eating can you actually do it mindfully or are you slipping into autopilot that's actually how I got involved is because I was learning how to fast and I don't need to lose weight but it made me more mindful to go oh what am I supposed to eat before and after a fast because nutrients are important and then down into yeah so meeting people at fasting stages and saying be careful what you eat before and after that's good it's funny because when the 5-2 diet first came out it came from England and I got to know about it I don't know how many years ago 20 years or whatever and I decided to do it for 3 months I didn't need to lose the weight but I want to say could I lose 10 pounds my BMI is just in the upper range of normal but I thought can I bring it down and I actually found it quite easy to do because I was doing 12 hour shifts and on the day I was doing 12 hour shifts I just drank lots of fluid I ate like a bird throughout the day and I could do it and I lost 10 pounds in 3 months but I learnt so much more from it than just the weight loss unless you challenge unless you disrupt your patterns of behaviour you do not know what you're up against I used to put nutrients too so yeah when you do download the app look at the nutrient guidance the nutrition guidance because you add in your mail your activity is this your age is this it tells you to answer all that and then it calculates a recommendation that you need to check in with your doctor obviously but it starts them to think about it I was going to say I think there's a great story about an NFL national football league player who became a vegan and hired a personal chef and he got a bunch of his teammates to actually sign on to the same diet and thus proving that you don't need meat to have energy and proper nutrition and there you go professional high-level athletes expending lots of energy had plenty of nutrition from a plant-based diet yeah that's where people really say where am I going to get my proteins so that's why I created this part of the app as a plant-based nutrition I'm certified in plant-based nutrition that was my first question and that's the first question everyone also asks of me going back to my own experience on a raw food diet that I possibly knew what to do with during that period of time it was you know kind of through the roof I forgot the name of the movie but the movie that Arnold Schwarzenegger was in and talking about his and actual fact it goes back to the gladiators the gladiators were plant-based vegetarians and actually they've done studies showing that actually people improve their athletic performance if they are on a can you remember the name of that movie I'm just blanking on the name of it came out about 10 years ago I think I'll see if I can find it because it just lampoons all the sort of misinformation that people have about plant-based diets let me see if I can find it I'll let you chat I'll see if I can find the name of the movie we need Jerry's brain yeah was he on a plant-based diet for a bunch of time Rick who was that sorry now I'm remembering this he was on a plant-based diet there's actually a YouTube video for athletes that are and Arnold Schwarzenegger is one of them who is shared and he's not gone completely 100% but recognized that yeah I forgot what it's called I'll share it the stories are there but you also have to be aware of the industry countering whatever you come out with no million dollar budgets to get people excited about getting this highly processed food I mean it's actually astounding how distorted our food has become when you go and look at the processed shelves I mean right now we are importing fresh odors from Mexico and South America traditionally we would use canned vegetables until refrigeration became so omnipresent and frozen took another place I mean we absolutely have the technology and it's actually maintaining nutrients in the produce better when you flash freeze it right off the field or even if you can it then when you ship it and it gets weeks old by the time you put it on your plate that food has lost more nutrients than the preservation process will take out when I had a myeloma diagnosis one of the first thoughts that I had was so what caused this because I don't want to perpetuate this disease process I want to stop it and they don't know they just talked generally about toxicity in the environment in the food supply in our own psyche in the level of energy that is around and I just went yeah of course absolutely just to share with you it's called the game changers and it wasn't that long ago I was looking it up too so thank you for that I was just the thing is that title isn't memorable because it doesn't connect with a message it's like what what a marketing that you can remember and associate with it but anyway I'll put the link in there but I thought it was very well done very well done documentary actually one thing Jesse we're just in terms of what you're describing you know one of the things that you know coming from an academic background and I'm sure you've already been asked these questions and that is what's the evidence behind supporting the recommendations I mean you know Michael Greger he goes to great lengths and he always says what's this expression now what give me the facts or yeah give me the data or whatever you know give me the evidence he's got a little expression and it's just going out of my head but where's the beef basically yeah where's the plants I need to talk about okay that's fine I think I got a scoot as well but nice meeting you Jesse is that link to the thing did you put it in is that the one yeah just go to plantpoweredapp.com on your phone and hopefully you'll get through it and then here's my text number just text me I need to know where the frustration points are oh I see you got it there okay let's join use free now as the coupon and then you'll have a free version free now as the coupon so what you have to say is what yeah free now oh I see okay I'll take a look thanks for inviting me here I appreciate it Jesse stay on for a second sure let me get some water I'll be right back sure bye bye bye Klaus yeah bye bye Stuart thanks for joining okay thank you yeah so what did you think I love the conversation I always it's interesting to when you create new connections you kind of have to baseline what everyone knows so you can know where to start the conversation so it's great to know that everyone is already at a certain level and I don't meet many people like that so I'm excited to be in the circle yeah and Pete wasn't here today but he is like my super techie right I mean Pete got us all into the AI and I mean he's talking about software I don't even want to know about this but Jerry and Pete I don't know if you had joined the conversation already Jerry gave an opening update on the new book process and they're going to take the volume one that I had written and they're going to process this into a new book format the way that Jerry has envisioned it so and I don't know what that's going to look like but they want to work it up there and I'm going to stay through OGM because obviously I couldn't have written this book without Stuart and Pete and Jerry to supporting it and they sort of helped my thought process all along there so that's really pretty good how can I assist you to write a nugget or whatever if you want to do your own new book I mean how to do sort of a foundational piece talking about shifting people's thought process into an association of my plate my health my climate sort of thing so your question is how can you help me write something for the new book yeah so also but also using specifically chat GBT so that means flipping the way that you think about writing in terms of framing questions so the challenge here so I have a chat with you it's like super deep into anything food and beverage and agriculture and climate so you get amazing responses depending on the quality of your question right right it almost seems like defining the questions are more helpful to people than the answers because there's always going to be answers you know yeah I mean there always going to be answers but when you communicate with an audience you want to put the structure in that resonates and so one of the things I did when I worked at Amazon everything that I created for Curriculum always started with a question instead of like it would say and then you could look at all the list of questions and go well I know that up until here and then I start diving deep and everything builds on each other you know I'm going down but it's actually kind of building up and so a list of questions that are linkable to answers are a great way to learn because you could choose and it builds on each other that's the key what so maybe we can play and we can get directly onto the chat GPT and start inserting no questions and see what comes out and then no contents and see where it takes us yeah let's have a working meeting or a play brainstorm meeting sometime later this week and make it happen okay I'm ready what's your calendar look like I'm pretty open on Friday morning I have a 10.30 on Friday for half an hour I'm going to be on a call with um I'm talking about the Karatec flow actually but the comments um Tuesday tomorrow actually tomorrow would be actually works are you open at like 10 10 o'clock fine okay alright I'll send you an invite okay sounds great yay very good thanks Jesse see you later have a good one bye bye