 Hi, my name is Joe, I'm here today for a coin telegraph interview with the UNICC, with Sameer Chauhan. Would you be able to introduce yourself, Sameer, perhaps, and talk to us through what the UNICC does? Certainly. Lovely to be here. Great. And the UNICC is the UN International Computing Centre. We are a UN agency, headquartered in Geneva, and we were designed to support all the other UN agencies with their tech. Okay. So for the past 51 years, we have been incrementally over time supporting more and more of the UN ecosystem. Thank you. And at this stage, practically the entire UN system uses us in some way, shape or form. Oh wow, okay. Must have a lot on your plate then. Yes, we never have a dull day, as I like to put it in. And you haven't come far today either? Geneva, around the corner, we're at the WEF today, and in Davos, around the corner for Switzerland. It's a couple of trains. Yes, a couple of trains for Switzerland, but absolutely not too far away, and that's why it's a pleasure that technology and technology for good is now becoming such a major topic at the WEF. Okay, so technology for good there. What do you make of cryptocurrency? Is that a technology for good in the UNICC's eyes? I think crypto is, in my opinion, just another technology. It's a matter of how is it being used. Okay. It can be used for good or for bad. And we see use cases of that throughout the world. Clearly, from where we sit, we see opportunities, massive opportunities, where if crypto was used for good, it could be a real powerful vehicle in bridging the digital divide and transparency. All the value adds that crypto typically brings to the table, but they can be leveraged correctly. I think it has a lot of potential. Absolutely, okay. So what extent is there an overlap with what the UNICC does and the cryptocurrency blockchain world? Or what are perhaps the projects that you're most interested in? Certainly. Let me start with a couple where we've built solutions based on blockchain and essentially using the DLT aspect of blockchain and ensuring that we have immutable records. So we've built a couple of solutions for the UN ecosystem now, where we are tracking all the transactions, whether it's for example for people who retire and go off on a pension to make sure that the pension checks are being paid on time and tracked and things of that nature. And on the business side, we are looking at use cases where blockchain is being considered or being used for solutions where you end up supporting the individuals, what we call people of concern, the different UN agencies out there trying to support to manage those transactions again in a very immutable, trackable, transparent way. So we're seeing use cases for that. Okay, sounds a lot like a central bank digital currency, no? Absolutely. Okay, interesting. What's the UN stance regarding these CBD scenes as they're increasingly known? Certainly. I think the UN, just to be very clear, is very diverse. The way it's structured, the way it's run, each UN agency has a significant level of independence. So there is no one stance. That's point number one to note. And some UN agencies don't see a use case today. Where they think they could use CBD scenes or cryptocurrencies because they're very much focused on being an aggregator, bringing different parts of the world together and having meaningful conversations and dialogue. The other parts of the UN which are very much focused on substantive support of people around the world. So it could be, for example, health, where you're ensuring medicines are being delivered. And the UN then works in partnership with NGOs, with large international organizations like the Global Fund and Gavi, for example, when it comes to health. Equally, you have UNHCR, that's out there supporting refugees, a world food program that's delivering food, UNICEF that's supporting children, new and women, and on and on and on. These agencies are ones who are in the forefront of thinking through use cases and saying, you know what, maybe if we can find the right model, leverage some kind of CBDC, the interaction with the constituents we're designed to serve could be frictionless, could be smoother, could be more transparent. Okay, okay. And there, of course, you're talking about developing countries or the global south. And in the past two years, particularly during the bull run of 2020-2021, cryptocurrency was a real craze there. You know, where they look at Nigeria or Senegal, there was lots of trading going on. And lots of young people, as obviously the demographics skew younger in these countries, were taking a lot of interest in digital currencies. To what extent is the UNICC see this as an opportunity to leverage or to educate more people about digital skills, about STEM subjects, about, you know, taking an interest in tech? Certainly. So a bit of clarification. So we support all the other UN agencies and they drive the agenda of what do they want to do. But across some of these substantive agencies I spoke about earlier who are out there working with people in the global south, they all see a massive scenario where educating the youth for tomorrow is so critically important. And as you said yourself, it's the youth themselves who are clamoring for this insights and this knowledge. So we don't have to do much of selling to them. We have to actually just make the right tools available to them and the right mechanisms through which they can use those tools. So I think the demand is there. We're just trying to figure out how best to fulfill that demand. In some cases, the agencies go on their own and provide the right kind of support. They partner with private sector and in some cases they bring us along because we tend to provide a scale. We are able to say, can we reuse technology? Can we reuse training? Can we reuse knowledge that was built for one part of the world and just help scale it across the rest of the world? So that's where UNICC comes in, typically. And we see a lot of latent demand. Let me put it that way. Latent demand. OK. And of course the UN's motto or raison d'etre is dignity, equality, and peace. To what extent do you think these values are reflected in cryptocurrency blockchain? A bit of an off-the-wall question. Yes. Yes, absolutely. I think to my earlier point, it's a tool and you could use it for good or you could use it for profiting, which is not bad in and of itself. But there are scenarios where crypto has been the preferred channel for drug running or for money laundering. But putting that to a side, I think looking at the potential for good, absolutely, I think in a future state, I imagine crypto would be a very strong component of how the world interacts, how they transact, and making it a more level playing field. Where you don't have to be from a first world country to really benefit from crypto. And in fact, as you rightly said, in the last few years, we've seen youth from the global south very interested in learning about this. As they learn more, they will come up with the next generation, next round of ideas of how to innovate. And I think that will make it very, very interesting. Because then they're not just a consumer of the tech, but they're the next generation of creators and innovators that are participating. And I think that's what makes it really inclusive and in line with the morals of the UN. OK, very good. I would just like to add that with regards to using cryptocurrencies for nefarious practices, it's not a good tool at all. Because as you mentioned, it's a blockchain. It's a ledger. The record stays there forever. So it's maybe not the best tool for that sort of thing. And what about you on a personal note, Samir? You're a Deutsche Bank veteran, if I can say that. Of course, you come from this institutional background, now you're with the UN. How would you say that institutions are warming up to crypto and blockchain? It's very interesting. We are collaborating with lots of different organizations. For example, last year with the Bank of International Settlements and in Singapore with the Monetary Authority of Singapore. And what we're realizing is that all the countries and all the large corporates are waking up to the potential and saying this is an area where we need to step up and participate or we will miss the boat completely. So my expectation is all the large corporates, all the large banks who have now gone well beyond dipping their toes into this and starting to get involved, the momentum will only pick up. So I'm sure it will remain a very interesting space for the next five years or so. They want to miss that very. Exactly. As a small dynamic young startups, face the competition that will start to come in more from the large corporates. Very good. OK. I just want to close off with one final question, which is perhaps a trickier one. But what is the root problem that CBDCs are seeking to solve? Ah, that's a great question. So to me, I think from the limited knowledge I have, I don't claim to be an expert in that. But again, to me, it's making the playing field level. That's what we really need. Where today, there's a cost associated with Fiat, which CBDCs bring the cost down. Secondly, anybody with a device, and at this point in time, practically everybody has a smart device, can participate, can seamlessly transact. So that's, to me, the main reason for CBDCs to be more powerful than a classic Fiat. And I think transparency. To me, I always go back to that. The fact that if designed correctly, it not only gives you speed and efficiency, but it gives you transparency. So over time, you can do more and more good with it. Because you eliminate all the ways that people can use typical currency for bad, very loosely speaking here. Great. Great note to conclude on. Thank you so much to me. My pleasure. It says, Joe, with a coin telegraph into you. Thank you very much.