 I'm Jay Fidel. This is Global Connections here on a given Monday. And today we're talking about looking at American diplomacy in Southeast Asia with retired Air Force General Dan Leif. Hi, Dan. Thank you for joining us. Aloha, Jay. Always a pleasure. Someday we'll do this in person again. I hope so. I hope it's soon. I think one of the big things that dawned on me in my military experience, for that matter, my civilian experience, was that sometime after Vietnam, the military became involved in diplomacy. All of a sudden, we find senior officers are actually engaging with senior officials in Vietnam and elsewhere, trying to do soft power, trying to engage with them. Dan in no way was behind that. It's one of the reasons that he founded your school, APCSS, Asia Pacific Center for Security Studies. He did a lot to advance us in that regard, but the military has been more important all the time. And you have been on that wave. So can you talk about it? Can you talk about how the military has become sort of an advanced diplomat, a military diplomat, if you will, in the last few decades? Sure, Jay. First, a little truth in advertising. I was the director at APCSS until January 2017. So sadly, it's no longer my school. We are more retired. Pete Gumatautos doing fantastic work as the current director fixing things that I broke. So, but I don't know that that's new, but there are some new examples of the military role in diplomacy. And one of the most significant experiences I had, both in the military and at APCSS, was with Vietnam. And it all starts with people. So if you'll permit me, I'll tell a quick story. I think I have a picture of the guy I'm going to talk about who started all of this. General Nguyen Duc Swat, if we can bring that photo up. That's me and Hanoi in 2007, I believe, with General Swat giving it going to just one of the Vietnamese soldiers. General Swat was a Vietnamese Air Force fighter pilot who shot down six US airplanes. So he was the enemy. He led the first military delegation to visit the US, and I met him at Pacific Command when I was a deputy. He is a rock star still today in the Vietnamese military because of his performance in combat. When he came to Camp Smith with a big delegation, we met him at the door. Admiral Fallon was the commander. I was with him. And of course, Admiral Fallon rightfully acknowledged his General Swat's distinguished combat record. And General Swat's reply through a translator was, thank you, but I'm here to talk about the future, not the past. Now, General Swat's become a very close grant. He's a great guy, but he is about the future, not the past. And my assessment broadly is that that's a characteristic of the Vietnamese. And I remind our viewers that I'm not a scholar. I'm an observer. So I do some research, but a lot of this is based on my travels to almost every country in Indo-Asia Pacific. And you've done a lot of research in order to write all those articles you've written. Very prolific in writing about this subject. I try not to get things wrong. So bell data. But when General Swat said that, you know, he and I just hit it off. And they spent a long day at Pacific Command headquarters talking about search and rescue support and meteorological information sharing, which was within the limits of what U.S. national policy allowed us to talk about at the time. So we did that. And then we went to a dinner on the Admirals barge and toured Fort Island. Saw the Arizona Memorial Sunset. It's something we do for Pekong does for visiting dignitaries. Very moving for everybody. On that dinner cruise, if you will, was a Vietnamese two-star who frankly was a hard-line army guy, not pro-U.S. And he and I got into a discussion after dinner about the South China Sea. This is back in late 2006, I believe. And they were very worried then about Chinese activity in South China Sea. You know, China is their big neighbor. So, you know, they have to be consider, but they're also concerned at the same time. And this general wanted to know my, our plans should China get more aggressive in the South China Sea. And I wasn't about to share them with him, obviously. We're monitoring the situation. We'll respond appropriately. We'll depend very much on circumstances. That was not good enough for this general. And he got pretty upset. And I got pretty testy with him too. And we closed the evening, not as friends. Well, the army, the two-star general went to his quarters on Fort Island that evening, had a major heart attack and nearly died. They rushed him to Tripler, performed a quadruple bypass, saved his life. That's the good news. The bad news is the rest of the delegation had to leave with their translator. And he's stuck in what he considers the enemy hospital having nearly died, unable to communicate, doesn't speak a word of English. And under the Vietnamese system, he was going to have to pay the medical bills, which would have, you know, by virtue of proportion, left him and his family destitute in perpetuity. But we did what Americans do. We put Admiral Fallon directed that a translator be stationed at his bedside 24-7, slept on a cot next to him. We went visit him, took flowers to books of Hawaii, did the things that Americans do is a fundamentally compassionate people, regardless of what we think about this past few years. We are. And then Admiral Fallon did two bits of extraordinary diplomacy. The first was when he recovered, when General Hoy recovered enough to fly back to Vietnam, Admiral Fallon arranged for him to be flown back on a US military medical evacuation airplane. And the second thing was, and I don't know how he did it. I do know it was legal because we had good lawyers at Pacific Command. He arranged for the State Department to pick up the medical bills. General Hoy, previous hardliner, became the primary advocate for improved US-Vietnam military to military relationships. And that's how it starts with people. And I think when we see the Vietnamese as they are now and they see us as we are now, we're able to reconcile our very difficult past. And it's a recently difficult past. These are not centuries-old animosities. This is 60, 70 years, 60 years ago. So that was an important step and led to a lot of military to military engagement, which directly influenced the opportunities for and willingness to conduct civil relationships. And I saw that in person at APCSS. Yeah, that's what largely that's what APCSS is about. I don't know if people realize that its mission is pretty much what you've been talking about. Can you describe it? Well, it promotes the relationships and productive interaction across the Indo-Asia Pacific region with alumni from every country in Asia Pacific except North Korea so far. And it does that through a series of courses and workshops, alumni engagement and other activities that involve senior military and senior to mid-level military and civilian leaders like I said from every country except North Korea. And it does it with the Aloha spirit. So I know the Aloha spirit is real because I've been to 72 countries, I think, and almost every US state and territory. And there's nothing like it. And we use the, I'm sorry, I still say we about the institution that I love, but APCSS uses it to promote productive and positive interaction instead of argument. It doesn't mean they don't discuss difficult things there, but it's a productive discussion. And I have another Vietnam example when we want to get to it. Yeah, sure. It's part of the same thread. I mean, we're talking about how the military to its credit and to the credit of the nation gets involved in diplomacy and improves diplomacy by personal relations. Sometimes with military people in Vietnam or otherwise, where those military relationships turn into civilian relationships, and thus diplomatic relationships, it's a great contribution to our connection with the world, our global leadership, if you will. But let us talk about the other example you had in mind about Vietnam. So we welcomed a thousand or more visitors at APCSS every year when I was the director and could be a president, could be a four star general or admiral or lower level delegation, but the visitor program was very important. On December 12, 2012, I welcomed Minister Kwan, the chairman of external engagement of the Communist Party of Vietnam and the government and the Communist Party are separate entities, and I won't begin to try to give a seminar on that today, but this is an important guy, and he was the first CPV member to visit in an official capacity of the United States. And I got a photo of a pivotal moment of that. Got lots of pictures. And that's Minister Kwan with the dark hair. As I greeted him at the entryway of APCSS and our viewers who don't know, it's right there on Fort Druze. It's a beautiful location and that matters. It's part of what works about the Asia Pacific Center for Security Studies, more properly than Daniel K. Inouye, Asia Pacific Center for Security Studies. So Minister Kwan and his delegation pulled up dressed as you see, well, our duty uniform at APCSS is an aloha shirt, and I'm in it. And when he pulled up, I could, I just had a sense that he's thinking, do you not know who I am? Dude, you're wearing an aloha shirt. So I explained that and that the aloha spirit was what allowed us to have leaders from India and Pakistan and China and Korea and name any bad relationship get together and have productive discussions. And he bought that, I think. And then I pointed out to him that that was the 40th anniversary of the heaviest day of bombing of North Vietnam by the U.S. And here, 48 years later, we were talking about cooperation. And his, the guy translating on my right there is Buiti Zhang, a senior official in the C Communist Party of Vietnam, and sort of his deputy. And Zhang is a great guy. What a wonderful friend now. And BTG, as I call him, said I know, because 40 years ago today, I was sitting on a 57 millimeter anti-aircraft gun shooting at American airports. And I said, well, that's interesting because I've been shot at by 57 millimeter, not yours, but I bet we have a very different view of that entire deal. And so we had an old warrior discussion. And Zhang or Quan, the minister, had not, did not have military experience. And he was taken by that. And we had a great visit. And this was his first stop of a visit that included Pacific Command and Washington, D.C., a great visit. And it led directly to a visit of the Secretary General of the Communist Party of Vietnam to see President Obama and the White Up. It started right there. It started with the Aloha spirit, with a people-to-people conversation and building a relationship. One of the great days of my life, frankly. Did he get into Aloha shirts? I took him in Aloha shirt when I went back to Vietnam. E.T.G., naturally, and he attended a course later at APCS, as we teach young dudes. They get it. It's a little hard to ease them into it sometimes. One of the charming things that I remember about APCS is that you would take people from different countries, representatives from different countries, military, civilian, what have you, and you'd put them in condo rooms in Laikiki to stay there during their course. And they wouldn't necessarily be from the same country, nor would they necessarily be from friendly countries. And you put them in a situation where they had to be friendly. They were sharing a condo apartment. And this was very valuable in terms of building relationships, not only between these particular officials and the United States, but between these particular officials and those particular countries. And there was nothing accidental about that, Jay. It started with the late Lieutenant General Hank Stackpole, a great guy, and his deputy, Army Colonel retired Dr. Jimmy Lackey. Jimmy Lackey was really the genius behind how APCS started up, but was all very intentional, who we put where, what our activities were. And the courses always include social activities that are designed to build bridges, not burn them. Yeah. Well, I think one of the, this, Vietnam is a great story. And when you think of the way the United States treated Vietnam in general, in policy and immigration, for example, after the war, it's remarkable. And think of our art, how we, you know, remember Miss Saigon, what a fabulous way of describing the relationship and describing the turmoil of the relationship in those years. And for sure, it's a success story. Because now, look, they are our friends. And it's a complicated friendship. And I think that it begins, Jay, with the similarities between the two peoples. And as I said, I'm not a scholar, maybe an amateur international psychologist, I didn't know how to describe it. But I think we're very similar people. We care more about the future than the past general. We're both fiercely independent. Both populations are very skeptical of their governments, naturally skeptical, entrepreneurial, focused a lot on our community, not necessarily before family, but there is a municipal focus to both societies. And it fits. And they have a great sense of humor. They have the best sense of humor in Asia. I say that because they laugh at my jokes and I'm like, God, so. But there is, it's a country where I, as an American, am very comfortable with just being there. So that that works. But then it took the hard work. We really established diplomatic relations with them in 1995. And we're a real good place as a bilateral relationship, strategic partners, if you will, not allies, not treaty allies, and they have to balance everything they do with considerations. They're a big neighbor. But the hard work has involved addressing things that are really tough things, the Agent Orange and its effect on Vietnam and our veterans, POW, MIA, unexploded ordinance from the war, not easy stuff. U.S. concerns about human rights in Vietnam. It's been a lot of hard work and that hard work continues to this day. But again, it's focused on the future and other things that can't do that suffer for it. Okay. I just want to talk about the role of the military in all this. Because it strikes me that, you know, so much of our relationship with Vietnam is in the memory of the war. And it is therefore fitting and appropriate for the military to be on the front line in terms of, you know, doing ho-o-pono-pono, you know, and coming together again with them. But it demonstrates that the military is well able to do that. The senior officers involved understand the existing relationships, they understand the notion of diplomacy, and they understand how to make friends. And as in your case, how to continue those friendships, it's those continued friendships that bond the two countries together. But, but query, isn't this the job of the State Department? Where is the State Department when you look at this this phenomenon? The State Department is absolutely in the middle. And the military doesn't replace it, it complements it. And there are things that the, first of all, we have a lot of military people around the region and sometimes in Vietnam doing collaborative work. But also, it's very easy to form an instant bond when you're both military, regardless of country. And I think that's different. Diplomats come from different backgrounds. It just doesn't happen as quickly when SWAT and IMETP, General SWAT and IMETP, you know, we could both talk about flying combat. And he, you know, he had actually shot down a guy who flew up for us with his, his son later worked for me as an F-15 pilot. And, you know, that was the past. And I think I spoke at a conference in Washington, D.C. on women's peace and security once. And to a skeptical audience made the point that I think the most compassionate people I've met are those people who've seen real in the middle of it, because when you see the worst, you essentially the best. So I think that works. And, you know, Jay, when we try to reconcile any problem throughout the world, internal or between countries, we usually have truth and reconciliation commissions. And that's a useful process. But my view is if you have too much truth, you won't get to reconciliation because the truth, the accounting for what happened, while not unimportant, can't be your preeminent focus because you'll never get to reconciliation. You have to get over it. I think military people are naturally inclined to moving on. And we've seen that through the years. The U.S., the Germany militaries work well together with Japan. And the only former adversary we haven't reconciled with is North Korea. Yeah. And, see, you know, this must be somewhat stressful because, you know, you have the skill, the personal skills, and the common background, for example, with these military people in Vietnam. And yet, you know, you're doing a diplomacy thing in the case of Admiral Fallon, handling that Vietnam officer and taking care of him so as he should remember what happened. Everyone around him should remember what happened in terms of American soft power for the rest of their lives. It throws a long shadow, and it's a gift that keeps on giving. But, query, at the moment of contact, there you are in a meeting, you really have to call on skills beyond personal skills. You have to be representing the United States. You have to know about United States policy. And I wonder what kind of experience that is. Is it something where you call the State Department first? Is it something you get trained for? There's a military officer, senior military officer, who is engaging with officials in a foreign country, get briefed by American intelligence, by American diplomacy, before he goes into that discussion? Yes, of course. So, for example, at Pacific Command, there is a pull-out, political advisor, from the State Department, generally a very senior guy, sometimes an ambassador, or somebody who's about to be an ambassador. And they're on the staff and they're a key advisor. They travel with the commander, sometimes the deputy, but they also educate the entire staff. And whether as a senior military officer or as the director of ABCSS, I visit 36 countries. And the visits always started with interaction at the embassy, most often directly with the ambassador, to know what their priorities, what any were in, what any tripping points might be, what any concerns might be. And then you just do what's right. And I didn't think it was very stressful. Maybe I was too naive, but I tried to do the right thing. So, there must be a lot of lessons that you have learned that you have seen in these discussions, meetings, and relationships. And I just wonder if they apply to other countries in the same way. Clearly, they have succeeded in dealing with Vietnam. Some countries are more friendly than others. Most countries we have not had wars with. So, the military common denominator there may not be the same. And I wonder what we have learned, what you have seen, what we have learned from the military point of view, and probably from the diplomatic point of view as well, to deal with other countries in Asia, Southeast Asia, and Asia in general. Some of them might be easier based on a background, for example, Japan, although that began in a war. And some of them might be harder, like China. China is hard at very sophisticated issues. And yet, this is something we need to do. We may not have paid attention to it properly over the past few years, but now certainly for our own interests, we should. So, what can you say are the lessons we have learned? Well, first of all, I don't know that we haven't paid attention to it because the work goes on. There's always change in administrations and policy and focus and all that. But the work goes. And we don't leave the region. My preeminent lesson as I went started doing things like this came from General Swat, focus on the future. And so, you could go to places like Vietnam and have people talk about the past. And you have to deal with it. But the focus has to be on what's best for both countries in the future. I've got a picture of me coming out of a tunnel, a Gucci tunnel, if we could bring that up. Those are the tunnels dug by the Vietnamese near Saigon, the unbelievable network. I always refused to go to war memory sites. Museums, that's not why I'm here would be my point. I said, no, you've got to go to the tunnels. And I finally, I don't know if there's six visits that already go to the tunnels. It turned out they wanted me to go to the tunnels because it was a rite of passage as to how far you can crawl through the tunnels. Had nothing to do with the war. But you've got to focus on the future. The second thing, and this may sound arrogant, it's absolutely not. Be an American. We're a good, compassionate country at core. And we are a nation formed on ideals which, when we live up to them, are compelling to others. They may not be able to emulate them for a variety of reasons. They may not be willing to adopt our ideals. But the U.S. is a compelling country. And we saw that after the boxing day tsunami relief. The U.S. relief to the region had an incredible impact probably still to this day because they saw us as did General Hawaiian Tripler as we are. So be American and then be respectful. We had fellows at APCSS from much less advantaged backgrounds who would be easy to dismiss as not. Every bit is capable and every bit is committed to their country. And you have to respect that. I think if you do that and then adhere to U.S. policy, you can do that. China is a different case. And perhaps Jay, some day we'll talk about China. I still, I traveled there pre-COVID. I'm probably not going back anytime soon, but I still keep close contact with some Chinese friends and officials. We have some pictures that I'm not sure we've seen all of them. The one that impressed me most was the picture, the group picture. Can we show that? Yeah. What is that now, General? That's me with a mustache. That's probably not what you were asking, Jay, but my right is Ambassador Ted Osius, then U.S. Ambassador to Vietnam. And that crowd there is a group of alumni from the Asia Pacific Center for Security Studies who are all military and civilian officials in Vietnam. And the ambassador hosted a reception for them, as they usually do. It's a huge alumni network. More than 10,000, maybe more than 12,000 now that COVID has ceased production for a while, if you will. And we had a reception with the ambassador. He talked about the importance of their work and our work at APCSS. It was great. Always is. I went to receptions from Bangladesh to everywhere. But those are movers and shakers. And as you can see from the picture, they're young movers and shakers. They're the people who will influence Vietnam, its policy and development, and years to come. You'll also know that several of them are women. One of the things that we did at APCSS while I was the director, and I'll take some credit because I mandated it, was we more than doubled our participation of women in programs under the UN moniker of women, peace, and security. And that's a whole nother topic. But these are people who will shape the country. They've seen the U.S. wrapped in the Loha spirit in Hawaii. They understand that what APCSS does is enable them to do their jobs better. It's not a brainwashing course. We don't try to force U.S. ideas on them. It's a very practical, here's how you can do things better. They teach complexity theory, negotiations, skills, problem solving, and give them a broader view of the ocean, of the region, and then also form the connections that they rely on. So those alumni gatherings happen around the region. And that is a case where you can see Loha spirits or Loha shirts in places you wouldn't expect. For example, and see that they are learning. I'll give two quick examples. One was in Nepal. We had an alumni gathering with over 100 alumni. And there was an acting chief of mission at the embassy. The acting chief of mission showed up about 10 minutes late on her calendar because that's how things always started. All of the alumni were already seated waiting for it to start. And she said, what happened? I said, okay, that's what we keep. You start on time. You can't do your work on time if you don't start on time. And they remember it from APCSS. And almost all of them were in a Loha type, which furthers thunder in Kathmandu. And so the half life of the APCSS experience is extraordinarily long. It's because it goes not just into the brain, but into the soul. I really believe that. Yes, I do too. The other example comes from Myanmar. And we had an alumni gathering there. And that was smaller because we were about three years into our engagement with Burma slash Myanmar. And at the gathering, maybe 20 people, we all gathered around and were eating poo-poo and usual stuff. And the fellows, the alumni came up and started showing me two things, or doing two things. One, they showed me a picture of them sitting on my Harley Davidson, a uniquely American icon that I'd take to the center. And yeah, it's Americana. And the other was they give me an update on their fellows project. So each fellow took a project that was intended to go back to their country and improve their country. This is not about the U.S. It's about enabling better governance throughout the world. And some of those fellows projects have led to peace agreements, earthquake preparation in Nepal, you name it. So I kind of got off on a rant there, but this is real work that's done that can only be done in Honolulu with the Allah Spirit. It's a perfect example of soft power, the Joseph Nye soft power at the Kennedy School and Pacific Forum and CIS. That's what it's all about. I confess I don't like that term soft power because it's so hard. As I said in our last piece, peace is hard. War is easy. Yeah, well, the successor was called smart power. So my last question to you, General, is this. So we have a change of administration. We're going to have a new president, obviously. And we're going to have a new secretary of defense. And it's all really interesting in light of the discussion we've been having today because we need to do this diplomatic relations between the military and the State Department. And we need to patch up some relationships, I think, and and take and improve some, such as what we've done in Vietnam, as with other countries. So in a general sense, I guess that's double entendre. In a general sense, what's your advice to our new secretary of defense? What's your advice to our new president about these things, about foreign policy, about using military military connection in order to achieve this? Well, Jay, this will surprise you, but neither President-elect Biden nor Secretary-designate Austin have called me to ask for it. So this is the first they're hearing. All right. I think if I were to give any advice to an incoming president, and this goes back to your question on what's the State Department doing, I would work very quickly to fill the slate of ambassadors worldwide. I think it's so important to fill the the offices to get people nominated, confirmed, and then credentialed by the country that has to accept them. They're hugely important. So it's not just the military. For General Austin, soon to be Secretary Austin's Senate Willie, I think my advice might surprise you. It'd be two things. One, be a civilian. I'm not a fan. General Mattis, great guy, very effective, I think, as Secretary of Defense in difficult times. General Austin, I know a bit about his his credentials speak for himself, but they're not really civilians. And that's a civilian position. So they have to resist the temptation to think with their uniform. And the other another part is the Pentagon is big business. And many of the sectors of defense did bring a business background, a deep business background that I think is important. Now, it's not without peril. Some of them have not done it as well, Secretary McNamara might be an example. But there is a business side to the Pentagon. So I get some folks around you who know business and remember to be a civilian, not that either of them ask. I think there's an enormous resource in people like you, General, because you've seen it. It's been through your career. You understand things that perhaps other generations do not. And I hope that both the new president and the new Secretary of Defense can take heed from this kind of advice. In any event, we're going to continue this discussion. We're going to look at other countries and the relationships the United States has with other countries in Southeast Asia and otherwise. And I really appreciate you coming down for those discussions. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Yep, I look forward to it. Jay, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and all holiday wishes to you and yours. The same and stay well.