 OK. I will move right along to my next speaker. Alexander Bardell, who is the chair of the BCS Green Specialist Group. He is also the founder of SDA Advocate, an independent sustainable technology consultancy. His passion for sustainability started in 2006 when he joined the IBM House of Carbon initiative, which defined a simple methodology to map and address carbon usage across an organisation. Ac ychydig ddechreu Alex i gweithio ar y cyfnodd cyfnodau ffyrddol. A'n ddweud y byddwn i gwaith ymddangos i'r oedd ymddangos arall y dyfodol. Felly, rhai gael i'r rhaid i gweithio ar Ynys Gweithfodd Alexander Bardell. Rhaid hwn i, Alex? Rhaid hwn ni'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio? Rhaid hwn ni'n gweithio'r gweithio? Rhaid hwn ni'n gweithio'r gweithio? Rhaid hwn ni'n gweithio'r gweithio? Rwy'n creu chi'n wneud yn gwneud? Ond iddo'r wnaeth. Cymru yng Nghwyl yma i chynig i ddim yn gweithio. Pwy fydden nhw, am rhaid i'n gwyl fel hynod. Fel hyn wnaeth i gweithio? Mae'r cyfreidd sy'n ddim yn gweithio. Fel hyn noir, mae'n ffrwng ddweud yw cyfnod a gw הסer fyddwch'da'n gwybod a gydag i'r cyllid am rhaid. Ymhynghorodd, rydyn ni wedi'n adnod briwyr Cymri, yw cyfnod yma. y British Computer Society is a charity, it represents the IT industry and its members. So we don't have a big marketing department and my marketing department is my 13-year-old son who is learning lots and lots and is probably more proficient than I am. So when he gets back today I'll be sitting down with my marketing department after his football training and seeing whether we can use a bit of AI to actually improve how we can do some of our presentations and slide decks. So, well I'd like to come and talk a little bit today now and it kind of works quite well from the previous presentations a bit more detail and granularity around some of the levers and triggers which are there today which we need to use and need to understand which are kind of driving sustainability and part of this is if we go when I started off and my role then was as an enterprise architect, the conversations I were having with firms was predominantly with the marketing department and it's all about the brand and the brand image and how we can make marketing sustainable and this was because we didn't have many other triggers and the reality was it was a bit challenging because the companies would all say yes we absolutely want to be sustainable we want net zero but there's no real legislation there's no drivers no kind of business case justification and back in those days it was really hard to actually get your foot in the door but now it's great that I'm here today and and that sustainability has become more relevant and more prevalent that's a positive on a negative the reason why is not so good so it's climate change and combating climate change but today I just like to go through some of the key elements which as an enterprise architect you probably would like to consider when thinking about your architectural framework your guiding principles building out your enterprise architecture so climate change has become an issue and if anyone was part of COP 27 last year it was quite prevalent that we're having some of the issues like the flooding in Pakistan, the adverse weather conditions in America and we're looking more than just net zero we've got to think a bit about mitigation about how some of these more at-risk areas can adapt and possibly how the richer world is able to compensate some of the the poorer areas which are most at risk and so really it's it's kind of driving this message home and because of it it's becoming more important so employees particularly employees who are coming out of university now want to work for companies who have real genuine sustainability credentials not companies which maybe just greenwash will pretend to be sustainable so this is driving employees and maybe some of the employees that you want to actually come into your companies to say that we are genuinely sustainable and this is what we are actually doing. Investors are under pressure now so institutional investment pension funds to actually ensure that they're making investment decisions with companies who are environmental and have the right credentials so I'm going to talk a little bit around the the ESG's environmental social and governance framework which is growing it's becoming maybe legally binding in some places but it's definitely an important aspect for investors to make investment decisions and consumers are driving change the consumers are getting worried about climate change and they want to make sure that the companies that they're buying products and services for are sustainable and so this will be driving some of the governance and so at the top of the companies the CIOs are beginning to understand that this is maybe an important thing to think about and then this should then start filtering down the organisation and therefore the IT the technology and the enterprise architectural element within the organisation need to consider sustainability as well. I want to talk a little more about the SDGs I've made a mistake the SDGs are in a slightly different aspect but you have an 18 instead of 17 but you know this is important because the UN are using this to kind of push their view of how we should look after the planet my children are learning about the SDGs in school today so this is now something that the the kids of people university are literate with they understand what they are they understand the aspects about it and so we now just need to think about how we place technology within this new arena that we're beginning to see and these new information sources that are coming along so it's interesting so if we're listening to the COPs there's really two aspects to technology there's technology itself from getting its own house in order so we need to think about our carbon emissions we need to think about our resource usages but there's also the other part which I'll probably not have time to talk about today which is how is technology going to be an enabler to support us on this journey and COP26 in Glasgow was an example of the of the what what is it we need to do what are we going to have to change and COP27 was the how what are the things that we need to put into place and interesting I had an invite to COP26 but because it was in Glasgow and there was so many people there I couldn't go COP27 was the first COP where anyone could join anywhere in the world online and this is how technology has really helped us to do that but one of the key messages that came out of COP27 is that technology is the glue it's the binder there's all of these gaps that exist in terms of how we mitigate and deliver against climate change how we deliver all of these projects and then there is a gap which they can't fill and they say well okay you know technology needs to fulfill this role so if you're sitting in an organization and you're thinking about what is it we want to do where do we want to go certainly it's worth listening to the cops and trying to understand how can we use the skills and sets we have in our toolbox our technologies how can we place these into these gaps to actually help us get to net zero and achieve our 2050 goal and so if you want to look at the areas where technology is a direct effect obviously climate action so currently it's believed to be around about between two and ten percent of all global emissions are coming directly from IT the area which is really doing very well is communities and cities so smart cities if you look at London look how London's changed in the last 10 15 years how much technology has become a key part of how we live our lives in London and how these technologies are trying to make life more sustainable um so in these these areas the 11 12 13 7 89 is where we believe there's a direct influence in terms of technology but also you have already said things like big data analytics um technology actually is affects all 17 of the the SDGs and so it's a you know a wide encompassing role but then the direct effect probably sits within these ones so there's an interesting lot of conversation discussion particularly now within IT and this is around scope reporting um so up to now it's been relatively straightforward we've had this concept of scope one and so what scope reporting is part of the greenhouse gas protocol corporate value chain um was that wanted firms and organisations to be able to report their carbon usage uh and one of the real reasons why this is very important is that we need to get to that baseline and the baseline of where we are today and so if you think about your standard enterprise architect technology project you have your this is what we want to do our 2b state we have our aziz state and then we can do our road mapping to get us to where we want to get to but if your aziz state isn't understood well then it's going to be quite difficult to get to your 2b state and do your road mapping so one of the the the sort of drivers for the scope reporting was to try and get organisations at that point in time where they understood what their emissions were and where they were coming from so we started off with scope one and that's quite simple it's the direct usage you have so the fuel used company vehicles the really direct emissions and then the scope two indirect again was relatively straightforward so you could understand your purchase electricity heating steam like that so these are things to measure but now we're moving to the stage where we we need to focus on our scope three emissions and scope three is a bit more complicated because that includes the supply tone so everything that you're consuming um the waste disposal so removing and disposing of your ICT assets um but also where it starts getting a little more challenging is well hold on our our um IT strategy has been cloud only so now we need to understand what proportion of our emissions are being consumed from our cloud service provider um so our cloud service provider then needs to give us our emissions data which we could then use to include in our own reporting now a few years ago this was impossible they wouldn't provide that data but I think that that the cloud the big cloud service provider so people like Amazon and Google have sort of understood that this is a this is a need and they're beginning to provide that data and that information but it does mean that the the process is is is a lot more complicated and I guess the reason why is if you look at this other chart here we can see where we are today in terms of the emissions that we're getting from um carbon based fuels and as we see so transportation um buildings these probably make up about half of all of our emissions they're going to have to transition to zero carbon which means we're going to need to be using renewable energy sources so not only are we going to have to um transition from carbon to non-carbon energy sources which predominantly here means electric um we're going to have to then seriously increase the amount of energy that we're um receiving from these sources so it means that unless we include energy efficiency and again the less with less the more with less it's going to be very difficult for us to then transition everything to renewable energy sources while still being able to provide the energy we need so one of the really important things about scope three reporting is to understand where you are today and then we want to start moving to that point where we have an idea of how we get to net zero and net zero is part of it is renewables definitely part of it is um zero carbon energy but another big proportion is to be we're going to have to be a lot more efficient in terms of the energy we do use because there's just not going to be as much energy to go around maybe I mean maybe this might change we might be able to reach that point but where we stand today I think that's probably one of the big challenges um so we've got the rise of the the ESG um reporting and this is quite interesting so last month I attended a a legal IT legal event where the legal frameworks and the legal practices associated with um ESG reporting are becoming much more prevalent so I don't know whether the people here is this a common thing with people beginning to hear and see and speak about ESGs as part of the company view yes yep so we're getting more so it's interesting to see that as time goes by it's definitely you know when I had this conversation a year ago there was no response at all as time goes on they're becoming more prevalent and interesting there's some some stats so as we can see there are 2.7 trillion dollars um as of december 2021 81% in Europe and in some European countries there's an actual movement to say that actually it's going to be legally binding to be to provide your ESG reporting um so it's fundamentally there and and it's making a change but right now it's a little bit pragmatic so if you look at a company like Tesla Tesla you should think great you know they make electric cars absolutely brilliant should have the best ESG reporting stats but they don't because it's environment social and governance and therefore they may do very well in environment but social there's been some questions around how Tesla employees are treated governance Elon and his tweeting and affecting the markets and so it's maybe a challenge as whether you're looking at in terms of an environmental sustainability perspective or whether you're looking at in terms of social and governance structure as well so yes it's a good point but it maybe needs a little more focus in terms of trying to get it to balance out a bit and and if you want to find out a bit more about ESG reporting I suggest you don't go and look on YouTube um or social media because I wasn't aware of this but it's quite a contentious issue so you're going to get lots of very sort of right wing people talking about woke and neoconservativeness and there seems to be a lot of contention I wasn't aware of where people really don't like this because they feel that it's trying to sort of implement the thing adversely but you know there's a lot of good information so it'd be useful to understand what it is and why it actually means uh why it's important and why it's actually making a difference and um it's predicted that in in the next five or ten years that number of 2.7 will go to 30 trillion so that's then becomes a significant proportion of global economy is under the under the um framework of ESG reporting now the reason why I do sustainability marketing is because when I first started off the part of the company was the who was really focused on sustainability and technology was this concept of the corporate social responsibility the sort of Ben and Jerry's of this world where their brand and their product is about being sustainable and therefore it's a product and a marketing question rather than a business and a technology problem so when I first started and I came knocking the door my predominantly the people I was working with were the marketing and the brand people were within a firm so one of the really important things to do is if if a company is sustainable and if a company does do some really good things um it's to be able to talk about it to actually say look you know we're doing these great things and this is why we're doing them um and then when the business case side of things come along if there's a brand benefit from being sustainable and you've done all these great projects to become a a better company and reduce your emissions then it's really beneficial to actually be able to use that tools and use the things to do to actually promote it so a lot of the work that I've been doing um has been working with companies to actually say right we've done these projects we're doing our reporting we're reducing our emissions and this is how we're going to market it and the other thing I've been doing is saying well actually that's not necessarily sustainable and where if you start marketing this as being a a sustainable thing you're going to be accused of greenwashing and greenwashing is a big problem where companies maybe think they're doing the right thing and are motivated and they then start marketing themselves as being this very sustainable company and then when people start poking and prodding around and looking at it they realise well actually that's not necessarily true and it can cause quite a lot of brand damage to your company if you haven't thought through exactly what it is that sustainability is and that you are genuinely doing the right thing so interesting the UK last year the HM government reduced the thing called the digital data and technology playbook and within there there is a sustainability element so if you're a company or an organisation who wants to do business with the government you will be expected to provide some sustainability credentials and it's unfortunate that the speaker who has come today Adam Turner from DEFRA actually has a whole presentation about government policy in terms of procurement of services but it's quite useful because if you use the same principles here for your own organisation it will mean it will allow you to better understand sustainability in terms of what it is you want to do so you know one of the key things that they're asking for is this PPN 0621 which is a carbon reduction plan which says if you're going to do business with the government you need to show that you have a carbon reduction plan in place that you can actually go some way to achieving your sort of net zero policies in 2050 so you know as an organisation if you say right well when I'm dealing with a cloud provider or a third party if I can start asking them to provide me some of these stats some of these metrics some of these data so I can better understand their supply chain but I know that they have a plan to get to net zero and it's genuine and that maybe even I sign a code of conduct with them to ensure that they meet some of these expectations then some of the work that the UK government is doing is actually probably useful as a basis for you in terms of your own procurement plan in terms of how you can ensure that you can procure sustainable third party suppliers and I guess again this is really relevant when if you look at how IT is consumed today you know previously you had your own data centre you had your own computers but now your colos there's third party data centres there's cloud there's as a service so more and more the way we consume IT is through third parties and therefore it's really important to get it right at the procurement contractual phase because it's there when you can understand whether your supplier is going to be sustainable or not sustainable and that's then important when you have to do your scope three reporting because obviously if your supplier can't provide the data or they're not sustainable then that's going to have an adverse effect on your sort of carbon usage reporting that you're going to have to provide as part of your journey to net zero 2050 deliverables so one of the ways to try and avoid greenwashing and there are lots of different allegedly sustainable standards out there is to see whether your third parties actually have some valid certifications which you can use so one of the ones here EU code of conduct for data centres so are the data centres energy efficient are the data centres constructed using materials which are low in carbon are the data centres situated in a country where the energy mix is from renewables and zero carbon so a good example is somebody was building a data centre in poland but poland predominantly is getting its energy from burning ligite which is brown coal so therefore the carbon footprint of the energy source in poland is really bad and as a consequence that then means that when you're actually looking at your end to end emissions you have to include a proportion of your energy coming from brown coal which is not a very good source whereas alternatively if you were to do something in Norway most of Norway's energy sources is from renewables and therefore the actual total carbon footprint associated with the data centre and the IT equipment in there is better because it's coming from renewable sources rather than coal based sources again bream was another good certification which looks at the manufacturing process of the building to understand if the build environment is sustainable we've got some of our US standards so if you're on a global project you want to be looking at what's happening in the US obviously uptime institute to look at energy efficiency of the data centres CEDA which is our very own BCS derived standards where we look at energy efficiency of data centres and award a data centre based on their energy efficiency standards and obviously I say with their 14,000 standards and similarly recently the the BSI but your standards institute have brought out a whole set of standards associated with with sustainability so you know one of your questions when you're asking your suppliers about their sustainability standards is try and understand if they have achieved a certain level of sustainability based on the certifications that they've managed to achieve against so I've talked a lot about data centres and computing but one of the interest areas and areas that people don't really discuss very much is sustainability and software so it's not the data centre that's using the energy it's not even the compute that's using the energy it's a software that sits on top of it and up till now there's been very little focus on how you can actually make your software more sustainable so you know it should be seen as part of a project to try and consolidate software products unfortunately the way that computers have grown over time is it's not linear it doesn't stay like that more's law means that the compute processing power has been going up the relative cost has been going down and it's really only been going on one trajectory and because of that there's been no real incentive to say how can we actually write software which is more energy efficient so there's some guiding principles in terms of how you want to think about generating green software and obviously it all starts with the code and certainly to certainly the the carbon measurements are looking in the wrong place we're looking at the data centre but it's not the data centre that's driving it it's a software it's a software that that that powers the computers that then consume the energy and if you're thinking of a cloud only architecture well then that actually gets even more complicated because maybe you've got a a data source here you've maybe got a compute source here you've probably got some apis and some extra elements connected so then you suddenly got quite a kind of distributed software state using multiple vendors to provide a common set of services so cloud is is definitely a source for good because it's a more efficient way of delivering compute but it's more challenging to try and understand where the carbon is so there are some things out there to help you so obviously microsoft has its principle green but I would you know look a bit careful because you know microsoft products tend to have a lot of bulk in there they're not necessarily the most energy efficient to have extra software modules you don't necessarily need another place look is the the green software foundation but as we already discussed there's some big challenges coming along so AI is definitely a product for or a thing for good so we could use AI in a good way but I find this this the stat from MIT which is that to train an AI module uses as many carbon missions it takes to build drive and dispose of five cars over their lifetime so that's actually quite a lot of carbon so we got to really think about AI in terms of its cost and its benefit there are benefits but there are costs and I don't think right now people are looking at the cost associated with AI they're all interested in the wonderful features and functions that it has and we've got to be careful because we've kind of going this past so when we got cloud suddenly the cost of IT dropped significantly and what happened is lots more people were able to use compute and so cloud improved the access to compute but it also increased the emissions we then had big data analytics which is a similar kind of thing where you're then looking at huge unstructured data sources and there's benefits if you want to map deforestation in the Amazon big data is perfect you couldn't do it any other way so there's a benefit but again you're interrogating more data and more data means more carbon usage and then the final bit was that the you know the point is that we need to get a balance and we can't just keep going on the trajectory we're going now because whereas other industries are reducing their energy usage they're looking at how they get to net zero right now technology is still going up we're not reducing we keep coming up with new ways to use compute and do these these extra things for us we're moving to a digital by default world but that runs the risk of cooking the the planet to a certain degree as well so we have to try and get that balance right in terms of green software energy efficiency and compute it's quite interesting these guys here the the Rosetta code did a ranking of all the programming languages to try and understand which ones were the more efficient and unsurprisingly the older ones the seas to Pascal's the C++ these languages which were written from the time when there wasn't much compute very efficient in terms of the amount of energy they use relative to the amount of compute they do and then as we get to the more digital ones at the bottom the pythons the javas the rubies these software languages are very good for doing simple little digital things but you really need to think about if you're going to write your whole application it's not going to be probably the most efficient way of doing it so some of the key things is to think about your data I mean we've got one way we're saying data is great but obviously when you're interrogating data you're using compute power so how can you minimize the amount of data you need to interrogate selective programming languages that is sustainable try and remove some of those unused features the libraries the software loops all the things you don't need that come all bundled up within your software package aren't necessarily what you need monitor and manage your energy use so think about your energy think about getting some monitoring and some analytics on your software when you're coding it so that it actually you can have a look at it and say we're improving it we're making more energy efficient we can actually see that in our data center or our usage we're using less cloud instances and therefore we must be doing some improvement and as the audience here has predominantly enterprise architects this question probably needs to be asked as our suppliers the people who are delivering our software can they do something similar and so what are we looking for for mass suppliers so if I check how many for time I can't see the clock almost up right so I'll zoom on quickly so we're talking a bit about e-waste so e-waste is a big problem 50 million 54 million and one of the challenges that we we're not using our assets properly and we're sending a lot of assets straight to recycling rather than reuse so in Europe there's a big second-use market so part of the strategy is first thing can we repurpose something so we don't need to necessarily get rid of our own assets can we just reuse our assets in a slightly different way when they come to the end of their effective first life so they effectively have a second life and if we can then great if we can't then let's sell them on to someone else but if we really have reached the end of the life where we have to be very careful is how do we actually recycle those assets and if you look at e-waste it's got some good stuff in there so there is ceramics metal silicon plastics and currently the the best place to mine gold is a big pile of e-waste it has the highest concentration of gold it has what the the the rare earth metals which aren't particularly rare but are quite hard to mine and come from single single locations which is geographically and politically quite challenging so can we not think a little bit about how can we actually use e-waste in a way that we take these assets out and this is going to get really important because we're going to renewables so obviously wind turbines have huge magnets use expensive difficult to find rare earth metals um but within the UK there are a number of people who are actually focusing on this so there is Birmingham University is looking at recycling magnets in Cambridge they have a project where bacteria are eating e-waste and taking out the the rare earth metals and similarly Coventry University are focusing on a project to recycle the magnets and and some of the rare earth metals in there but what we have to get away from is the challenge which has happened in the past which if we go back to this one um only 12 and a half percent of e-waste is recycled the rest of it is just disappearing out and supply chain it's ending up in countries who are not really prepared to recycle it and if you search on the internet for some of the the things that are happening in Africa or Indonesia it's pretty unpleasant there's big piles of burning e-waste and it's not really what we should do so we need to try and focus our efforts on how we can actually close that loop um and that means researching um and developing ways of recycling some of these quite challenging materials but the really message here is it needs to remain in the UK and it needs to remain in in the country that has the products because we're the people who have the ability to actually develop the ways of recycling these materials and they're very valuable they're quite scarce and if we go to a zero carbon world where we all drive electric vehicles and we need renewable sources we actually need to get all of this back again so the hard drives and compute we need those magnets we need these materials and we can't just keep throwing them away because we just don't have the the materials available um i'll skip that one skip that one skip that one so this is the summary now so hopefully it's giving you a little idea of some of the triggers and the levers which are there which are going to be happening and are happening at the higher ends of the um at the C-suite within the organisations and so as we start moving down um people within enterprise architecture are going to be asked to start providing some of these data they need to provide information for the SDGs um the ESGs so the UN want to integrate the ESGs with the SDGs so they become one thing um we're going to be needed to do deliver scope one two and three reporting so that's going to be a given and it probably is legally required in some places it will become legally required I think here in in some period of time um but as you're making your decisions there are a number of standards that you can deliver so we are standards out there the seat of the ISO the BSI standards which you can ask of your suppliers and be careful of people with dubious standards which don't mean anything and there's lots of those out there so the the the risk of greenwashing um the government digital data playbook is a good start point um and we've got the carbon trust so carbon trust provides lots of useful data that you can go and look at which help you along your path in terms of carbon reporting they have thought leadership pieces and most of the things they have they provide are without cost so it's a something you can use to make a start so there we go that's my presentation finished hopefully it's useful thank you Alex yes please take a take a seat I'm going to combine a couple of the questions um any interests of time but um great great presentation sense of some real tips and things to think about and takeaways so thank you for that um so uh I'll combine these two um first part well is your opinion on how companies esg data will be independently governed and audited in the future um combined with when can we expect the current scope one to three are kind of passive metrics when can we um expect active prescription and governance to match these goals so based on the the the legal conferences that I've attended over the last 12 months or so there is a kind of movement to create a legal framework and it will have an auditable framework similar to say an audit firm coming to audit your accounts it needs to be independent it needs to meet a certain set of standards um and we're beginning to see that within Europe and I'm interested to see where the UK goes everything's a bit you know because of the way we are right now it's quite hard to see which direction we're going in but I suspect that we'll probably go in a similar way where you know in the way that you are audited for your accounts you're going to be audited for your esg rating and therefore your rating is then delivered by an independent third party um and by doing that it then has the um I guess the the kind of structure and and the governance and and the ability for other people to then read that as they would read any um auditing that's done of a firm third party do you see that being like European and maybe US or whatever or do you think there's any chance of a global approach I would like to see a global approach because as you know if you spend any time looking at and listening to the UN listening to the cops it's about the fact that this is not a country or a region specific problem we need to solve it's a global problem and therefore we would really like to see global standards that are there that everyone can adhere to and I think it's really prevalent again in the technology industry because we have projects which go across regions and it it would simplify the process a lot if we could have one set of global standards that everyone could adhere to but that might just be wishful thinking in my other hand it's a nice nice goal though it will be far more useful um what evidence evidence do you think there is of shareholder demand for green outcomes that that's actually a concern that's overriding corporate investment decisions of over putting that over financial expectations well I guess it's a balancing act isn't it so I mean it's always this has always been a risk in particularly when there were no things like ESG is that when you talked to business leaders they would always say look we absolutely believe in this but what we can't do is put our company out of business because um you know we're meeting these ESG standards now if everyone has to do it well then that means that it's um you know it's something that that it's like a business cost is associated with all businesses but I guess from from that perspective this is again why it has to be a global thing it's no you know if if Europe is doing something and Asia isn't well then it's going to put them at a comparative disadvantage and because of that that's then going to affect the business leaders in Europe we're going to say hold on I'm not doing this um so this is why it needs to be a globally recognised um thing but yeah I you know I guess the other driver though is consumers yeah so consumers are the people who are driving this um and I never believe there would be much consumer driven but there it seems to be particularly um within younger people who are a better understanding of the ESGs now have a better understanding of the sustainable development goals from the UN because you know our kids are learning it in school and you know so they this is part of their curriculum their view of the world is slightly different so there is an expectation that when they come out of school out of university get jobs consumed that the products and services they're consuming will be more sustainable and we're already seeing that with the the 20-somethings who are coming into the the workforce right now okay um again consolidating a couple of questions um data the data source power topic if that's incriminating why would anyone support a supply chain originating somewhere where coal powers the grid um example was given of Arizona for example were the the ideas so to just understand the question so yeah so why would you why would anyone support um if if it's such a clear cut thing that where your where your power is generated and I think you gave the example of Poland is bad source if that's incriminating why would people support that um why would the country support it well why I think why would why would customers support that um is I'm interpreting the question now but why would anyone support a supply chain originating in say Arizona USA where coal powers the grid well I suspect is that that the point is that they won't and then the objective is that um Arizona would then think about transitioning away from coal powered power stations to renewables but I think the the thing is that that's it's not in the mix now so you say you know you say okay I've got energy source I've got a a data center of the PUE of one theoretically you know I've got this super energy efficient data center but in my calculation mix I haven't calculated the mix of where the energy source is coming from so when I include the energy source mix into the overall calculation of sustainability of my data center then I understand well actually it's not that sustainable and if these countries Arizona and Poland want to be in a data center business then they need to start transitioning their energy away from coal a little bit quicker it's going to affect those decisions yeah yeah Alex we'll leave it there let people get to their to their break but hopefully you'll be around if people yes now they're around here questions great thank you very much wonderful thank you very much thank you