 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Mike Chiprari from SJC drums Mike welcome to the show. Hey, thanks Bart. I appreciate you having me on totally man So this is like new and uncharted territory here on the show because you are the most Modern brand you've been SJC has been a company for 20 years, which is by far, you know, that's that's not you didn't start You know yesterday, but I think it's It's it's important to bring on these new newer companies such as SJC and you're the first one Because you guys have I would say you've kind of changed the the landscape of drumming a little bit and been really just Consistent with the quality. So I'm excited to have you on and and and talk about the the newer generation of drum companies That's awesome. Thanks, man. Yeah, I appreciate again You having us on the show and it's that's really special for us to be the the first of the the new modern drum companies And I appreciate the kind words for sure. Oh, yeah for sure Um, and I want to thank real quick. I usually do it at the end, but he really hooked it up for us Nicholas Angelini of whale city drums Which he was the drummer for a Wilhelm scream, which I always loved that band. Yeah, dude Nick Yeah, shout out Nick. Thank you for hooking Bart and I up He was at our factory a few weeks ago and he mentioned that he was talking to you or you know listening to your podcast and stuff So thank you Nick and shout out to whale city. Nick's a great dude I love Wilhelm scream love them for the whole 20 years of SJC being a company and Nick was one of the first drummers to Play our drums. So kind of cool full circle moment To connect with him and now be on the podcast Absolutely, that's honestly, that's how I've gotten I always tell people like when they suggest stuff though Sometimes people say you must get a ton of suggestions. I'm like, yeah, but it's cool to like that's what keeps it fresh to hear what people like so Cool man. Well, yeah, Mike. Why don't we jump in and and really just start at the beginning of the company? Which again, it's you know, you're not that you're a young guy the company's pretty young so Just take us back to the beginning here. Well, how did I start? Cool? Yeah, so we We started really humble beginnings, you know, we were kids legit like Preteens starting to play the drums and just really getting into music my brother and I did not come from you know we don't come from a musical family and Somehow we both got into music. I got into drums at nine years old He was playing the saxophone and keyboard and learning, you know notes and scales and how to read and write music and It was this kind of perfect harmony of just two brothers who we come from a family of Entrepreneurs my grandfather owned his own businesses or dad Had his own business for a long time. And so we were just always around like hustle and Getting into music was kind of the the the touching point for us to really begin What is now SJC drums? We didn't mean to do it It was really my brother just messing around in our backyard spray painting You know like most cool things and there's a lot of drum hobbyists that are doing this now We were we were just like them just doing it spray painting hardware My brother would rewrap kits and recut bearing edges and this is like Prior to even my space being out no social media the internet was was a thing obviously but it wasn't you know, we saw the phone books and you call people on the telephone and We just started, you know hacking away at building drums for fun And my brother Scott eventually took a corner of our grandmother's basement who lived next door So our offices were in our bedrooms and our workshop was next door And we just started hustling man Like we would print flyers for our company at Kinko's and like passing out at local hardcore shows at VFW halls and things like That and yeah, it was it is and always has been all about the connection with the drummer and the artist and What they want and who they want to be and what they want to sound like and us supporting them and making their drum come to life But also just being their friend and making sure that they're covered whether they're in a studio or on tour all the time and Yeah, just networking really got us started early I was like 15 just going to shows like I said and connecting with drummers now what year What year was was was that you know original? Yeah, was it SJC at that point and what year was that? Yeah, it definitely wasn't SJC. It was probably like 1998 Like legit like 1998 1999. I was 14. My brother was 15 Just you know, nothing serious at all. Obviously, we weren't like keeping track of inventory and having accounting Yeah, but it things like that like we were just straight up Messing around mostly my brother at that point, but I was out like kind of like pimping out like hey My brother does this. I thought it was so cool And it's cool in 2000 is when it really started like he graduated high school and went off to college and he went to The University of Southern Maine. I think for for music education. He wanted to be a teacher So again, he was way into we're very different people He was way into reading music and learning about bearing edges and different ply configurations And I was in a punk rock band didn't know how to read music you know learned it a little bit in high school, but But I was out there at punk rock shows like just being interested in what crazy color combinations we could come up with so Yeah, yeah, it was a cool. It was a cool just fun hobby for for the first, you know, five or six years like 2004 2005 is when it really started getting serious for us and that I mean man that like So I'm 30 so you're you're a little a little before me But that that time there and my brother's around in between our ages there where he was playing more in that like hardcore Punk pop punk, you know era that that was that time. Yeah, I mean that was like a golden time for all of that So which which I think is you know, there's a lot of players of SJC who are in that world So that's kind of foreshadowing, but and you said your brother's name is Scott, correct? Correct. Yep. Okay, cool All right, so you guys are messing around you're building kits for other people, right? Or are you mainly building your own? You know your own drums for your own gigs. Yeah, it got it got busy really fast like it was it was just my brother building his own stuff and he'd find drums on Craigslist and take them apart and Refinish them and a couple friends from high school like his buddy Nick Smith In high school then when he went to college. He had a few friends that um that that got kits from him Evan dude, I remember all these people's names from like way back in the day and I remember exactly what they got it's crazy But yeah, just just for friends and I was out there going to Warp Tour Sneaking backstage like trying to talk to drummers and we were making drums for all those bands that were that were up and coming that Eventually gonna gonna pretty much blow up and take and take our name with them You know panic at the disco and yeah in class heroes in the Academy is I was just going to these shows But then on the other side on the hardcore side like Kurt Balu from converge got drums for his studio God City here in Massachusetts and Ben Kohler from converge and Streetlight Manifesto and again Wilhelm scream all of these bands are like You know, I was such a huge fan of these bands, so I would reach out to them online I'd find you know, this is again pre-social media So it was pretty easy to find a band's hotmail G or Gmail account on their way probably probably hotmail at that point Yeah, exactly So I'm like I'm just blind emailing these people and they're like, oh that sounds cool custom drums It wasn't like a massive thing back then especially here in Massachusetts So we just started making drums and then all these bands are out on the road with an SJC logo that we created to just be like Yeah, we we have a business I guess and it's my brother's initials and I thought just put in the oval with a star on it Could look cool and I it was all just a happy accident that it that it got That it got serious and we became an actual company Yeah, that's awesome. So in that time it just jumped from like, okay, we need to like I mean but man You became a business then so obviously you're like getting a tax ID number and you're like doing business Things where I'm sure at first you weren't like let's you know make sure we save enough for taxes Yeah, no way man. I I didn't even know what to do there I remember my brother we were both living at home at the time still and he was at the kitchen table one night He's like, yo, you got to help me get all these receipts like Organized and like in a spreadsheet because we have to pay our tax. I'm like what the heck does that mean dude? Like what and yeah, we luckily had a lot of people around us again My family and my dad helped us a lot my My buddy Brian who is very involved in the company at the beginning his his parents owned a trophy like a Screenprinting and trophy engraving business. So they helped me a lot on on all that stuff getting a tax ID number and all that and Yeah, it was dude. It was and you know, it always has been just trial by fire learn Mess up learn again fix it and it's just that's how that's how we've done it. Yeah I mean, I think The the use of all of your circle and your connections is a really important thing where I mean Some people maybe out there may not have you know, someone to do their taxes and all this But I feel like if you look hard enough You can find these connections and it's really important. I mean you guys probably Maybe it's fair to say you wouldn't be here if you didn't have all of those people helping you dude 100% even even legitimately today like my mom will come in and help assemble when we have a lot going on to help us get ahead or my dad helped us move our factory and You know buddies from town my dad's neighbor helping us move like this literally happened two months ago And this is our 20th year of business and we've always relied on just people that care about us as individuals in the company To help us and you're right like not everybody has those connections I'm very you know, we were very fortunate and I'm very fortunate to have these people And it helps that we do something cool where we make drums for Rad bands so like, you know, we can return the favor to somebody pretty easily But yeah, it's you know, it's about just building that network in that circle obviously easier without COVID But you know, you could go to your little coffee shop or make friend You know, there's always ways to to to trade services or have somebody, you know Do you a favor and you just pay them back later buy them a coffee or something like this clever way about it for sure Yeah, and I mean hard work is at the core of everything I was thinking about that the other day. I was like we just with all of this stuff It's like with doing drum history for me and and it's just like It it's there's no easy way about it and I guarantee you probably, you know, you're obviously in the same boat now You mentioned I mean, so there's some of that SJC where like the endorsers are Really really like most brands are really important, but like there is a vibe to SJC I mean, there is like it's like I don't want to say new school, but it's very modern and it's very like God, I don't know. It's just like the people you guys endorse love the brand and are just so happy to like represent it and I mean, you've got some great drummers on your lineup. Let's let's back up. When did it first start to be like? You're getting these bigger and bigger and bigger drummers where they're they're coming to you to play Who was maybe the first? obviously in that, you know hardcore punk Screamo pop punk world they were coming on but when was there like a wow this dude or girl is massive Yeah, that's an awesome question and I appreciate, you know, you noticing that vibe and Talking about it. That is something that we've we pride ourselves on from day one Like I mentioned we we make custom drums and we're turning drummers ideas into a reality that then they're gonna go create Music on and tour the world and they're gonna have their image people are gonna see them and go Oh wow that dude has a certain look about his drum set like I kind of Understand that drummer a little bit more on his his vibe and his thing and that's really cool And that's really important, you know the early 2000s There were obviously only a few custom drum companies out there and obviously me being a drum nerd I was I am and was a fan of all of them of all companies but something that I noticed that was missing in the drum community was a community and It just seemed like a business and I didn't want to do that I always again having a grandpa and my dad Running their businesses watching them and learning from them I'm like business isn't meant to be nine to five and business isn't meant to be Monday through Friday Businesses and a family business and being an entrepreneur means you're on all the time and you have to be passionate about it to get through those ups and downs and This hobby turned into a business allowed my brother and I to just not to not fear anything and not Turn anybody away or say no we always welcomed new ideas and Wacky things like the butcher hoop and putting lights in drums and just Crazy stuff to make it really go over the top and so all of our drummers that play our stuff now Have that vibe where they're just like yo I play SJC and it's you know The drums sound great and they look great But the people behind it in the company are what I support the most and that's always been our thing And we've been extremely lucky Making friends with with such cool drummers from early on and some of the early ones that got us the most stoked Were for me. It was Eric Kane from strike anywhere And my brother right around the same time my brother's favorite band is the aquabats and we made drums for Ricky Rick fitness of the aquabats and we learned very quickly right then We shipped Ricky an acrylic drum set and my brother had never seen them and they were about to go on tour They weren't on tour for a bit and then they were going on tour probably I don't even know what year it was maybe like 2004 and Shipped them an acrylic kit. My brother's so stoked. He's gonna see him in Boston playing this SJC kit. We made them the bass drum broke Shipping it to California. So my brother had Ricky Like basically tape the drum shell Play the first two shows of it because they drove to like Milwaukee and then their second show is in Cleveland, Ohio at the I think a gore theater is that is that yeah? Yeah, that's yeah, they played there and my brother and I overnighted a new bass drum shell Built it threw it in my van at the time drove out overnight and brought the drum to them And we went on tour with the aquabats for a week My brother ended up doing lights for them and they slept over our house when they played Boston So awesome, we realized then like wow dude like we just hustled and and it was fun Because like we got to see the aquabats for two weeks and they slept over our house But like wow that reward was really cool and that band Will always talk about that and we just learned very quickly like all right We're not just gonna make drums for people or this is cool, man Like we're friends with like the whole band now and this is rad Let's see how many bands we can make drums for and then it really blew up for us in 2006 when Panic at the disco played on the MTV video music boards I was in a band touring at the time I ended up having to leave the band and I dropped out of high of College to focus on the company a hundred percent. So it was like 2005 going into 2006 that was like all right This is full-time We're we're moving out of grandma's basement. Let's do this Yeah, God, that's awesome. I mean You got to go for it. You got to go all the way and it obviously worked out for you I mean that's That's crazy. I can't imagine seeing it on TV I've heard some other people say like man it for us a big moment like GMS was like to see it on They were like we saw recently a GMS kit on a Miles Davis documentary and we were like whoa and it continues to happen like that. Yeah, that's so cool Yeah, I man, I would be stuck to have our drums on a Miles Davis Documentary, but yeah panic. Yeah, cool man. It like we I'll never forget that feeling We were watching it in our parents living room and Literally across across the backyard was our grandma's house and we're watching the MTV VMAs and there's the drums We built right next door. I felt really cool and and our whole family was supportive You know as we grew and more and more drummers were on late night TV and stuff Like I kind of lost track of it But my grandma would always text me she'd be like hey turn it on You know your drums are on TV or like somebody would send me a screenshot. It's really cool. Really gratifying thing for sure That is awesome. Now you kind of mentioned before about doing cool kits and stuff and unique stuff You guys do some of the most I would say you do the most Out there. I mean you obviously do very classic just awesome, you know Drum sets just great drum sets, but you also do some of the most unique extreme Like out there kits I've ever seen and the first one I remember seeing that I feel like was just like a social media Thing for me that I saw was the golf one where it was like there was like the the little hole on the side And it had like a golf ball and it was like a green. I just remember seeing that on Facebook or Instagram yeah, it was just like I mean, but that's it's not like click bait That's the wrong word But it's like you get people to notice you with this crazy stuff And then they realize but you have like a foundation under it of really cool drums What talk about that you're just you're the super out there stuff. Yeah, we love doing that stuff man And we we pride ourselves on everything and the drums that we build that are classy We always want to put a little bit of a modern twist and have modern and vintage kind of meat in the middle and merge in the middle for a Really awesome drum set and we you know most of what we build is that there's a there's a lot of satin stains going out There's a lot of 60s oyster, you know, there's there's certain trends that we hit back in the day with the glitter stripes You know, and we'll we obviously build with the customer wants and you know Social media can be awesome, but it can also be devastating when you see somebody negatively talking about your your passion, but it's like sure people got to remember like yo We build what the customer wants. We're not we're not just there at the shop every day building What we want and sending it to customers hoping that they like it or they'll buy it So when we have an opportunity, you know, such as Nam or for an artist like panic at the disco or a bigger band That allows us some flexibility in the design We like to flex a little bit and so when the warp tour was happening There was a lot of bands on the warp tour that would have this kind of silent battle of who's gonna have the Most epic kit this summer and so yeah, we built we built some wacky stuff You know and within our little community at Nam, you know truth or whoever it may be There was this little like who's gonna show up with the most epic drum set at Nam So we'd always go nuts, you know We've built drums that look like the DeLorean with a flux capacitor and doors that open on the side of the bass drum And yeah, that can definitely be seen as tacky or corny, but we always We always pride ourselves in making it an actual drum set still this thing can go on tour It sounds great. You can tune it up We built a drum kit for a data remember that looked like acorns and it had no bottom head And they were literally sculpted from like eight inch to at the bottom You know 12 inch diameter with big hoops on it that had you know fake acorn texture But the drum still sounded great And it's a cheeseburger Yeah, cheeseburger for Mac Sabbath like it's easy to make that sort of stuff and make it look cheesy But we are our builders here in Massachusetts are so talented and able to take those designs that back of the napkin drawing that I had with the with the artist and they're able to turn that into a reality where it's like whoa Like that's a work of art that should go, you know That should go either in a museum or like that that drummer is gonna have that forever And they're gonna stack it up in their house when they're done when they're done touring with it And that that's really cool. And and yeah, you know every now and then we love Kind of flexing our muscles and building some really cool stuff that people just aren't gonna expect Especially than the nostalgic stuff. I love I love taking something from you know, the 80s or you know a TV show or we built a Mario Kit that Mario tubes like stuff like that. I love that's awesome. What would be your number one favorite? Crazy custom wild kit that you've ever built. Oh, man They're all like they're all like little children Guys that go on so I can't I can't truly pick a favorite But if I were to have to say yo number one This is my favorite design and the result is my favorite It would have to be and it's not even that crazy But it would have to be the the first woodburn drum kit we built It was it had trees like tree stumps and an owl wood badge And it had a bunch of just carved like line carvings to make it look like a like the rings on a tree Really nice walnut to like a golden ochre fade. I just love my kid It was really the first drum set that that I saw in the drum world That was fully woodburned and it was beautiful and Andy Morotech aka the butcher he played in the band called the Academy is Came to our factory and woodburn that one And I did all the vertical lines on it And it was just I don't know it was a time in the company that I was just like I felt So passionate about what we were doing and I was really feeling the momentum And it was just something really fun that I never thought we would do and it just again turned out beautiful and it turned a lot of heads We brought it to Nam and People loved it We ended up getting that one up to the drum center of Portsmouth up in New Hampshire and now Customer in Canada has it so that'd be my favorite for sure Cool. Well, all right. So getting kind of back on a timeline here So I think the last like date we mentioned was like so things really picked up you dropped out of school You quit touring you focused a hundred percent on SJC was like mid 2000 or you know the 2000s so 2005 2006 Where did we go from there and I also want to mention too that we should talk about The there was and it's it's pretty common knowledge that the boutique drum brand I Don't call it an explosion, but there was a lot of brands that were happening like I I personally have a dark horse percussion kit that I got in 2005 or 6 because Chris I always mess up as last name sagakis get Seagac from RX Bandits played it Yeah, I was like I have to have that um And it was in that mid 2000s. There was a lot of brands in the boutique world around them, right for me There was so what was that climate like then? Yeah, I I loved it I thought it was really cool that the the mid 2000s. Yeah, it was again that pop punk vans warp tour You know funky glitter lights and drums It was a really cool time and I loved it because being a fan of vintage drums And then being a fan of a lot of the boutique companies It was a really cool competitive atmosphere where it was just like Who you know it was good and bad there was some certain business practices that I didn't agree with that were happening in other companies The newer ones that I think thought it was like oh you get the drummer from so-and-so to play your drums Give them a free kit and it's like boom. You're a business You know there was some new companies that that made it not so fun But I thought it was just healthy competition and going to Nam again It was really fun to to try and see who was gonna make the craziest drum at Nam or who would have the biggest line at their booth And it was just healthy competition and behind the scenes. We're all friends like I we're friends with all the other companies That are out there and I loved it. I loved seeing what people could come up with and what creativity You know and and what drummers could come up with it was really pushing the limits of Drums as a as an instrument Yeah, I mean and you're obviously a pretty humble guy, but I'll say it out of like shine truth dark horse Obviously SJC like you I mean you guys really kind of Pushed your way through and were more or less. I would say if there was a competition You would maybe be you know, you could take the claim of being the winner of the working your way through that the two Thousands and really coming out on top. I mean they're all still great, but I'm sure but I feel like you guys sort of I Don't know You know what I appreciate you saying that for sure. I mean and where we are now. We're definitely busier Then then a lot of the competition, which is which is a good thing and something that I'm really proud of But it's also really hard to accomplish and yeah, that builds drums and anybody that has a shop at home knows how difficult it is to Do your your your passion and want to make sure that the drummer that you're building it for is so stoked But you know Every drum builder is a perfectionist and has some sort of OCD about something and it's really difficult to make all those things connect and then you add, you know suppliers and Employees and taxes and all that stuff on top of it It's really difficult in the one of the main reasons we were able to succeed in those early days Back to what we talked about at the beginning of this was our connection and our hookup and our network that we had here at Home where we weren't paying rent for the first seven or eight years My brother and I weren't in each other because it was like we're just working other jobs to basically buy parts to do this It's a hobby and we had a we had a massive head start on a lot of the people that you just mentioned And we had a massive head start on a lot of the brands that exist now We're like we didn't have any expenses for the first say decade of the company And that really gave us a footing to to build this amazing foundation that we can that we can really catapult ourselves off of Yeah, and I also want to say that like I said, I have a dark horse kit I don't want to alienate anyone who has like a shine kit or a truth kit because like those are all amazing brands So everyone who has those drums, you know, you should be proud because they're all they're all good drums Do you guys use? So are you Keller shells? I would imagine. Yeah. Yeah, we're majority Keller Keller makes a proprietary shell for us right now that what we call our M5 and We've we've dabbled in making our own stuff. We we have some of the equipment to do it You know, we wanted to really go full-on and make our own shells But gosh, what a what a what an additional business that would have been where we don't have the resources to really To really make it happen. So yeah, Keller, you know, and Keller's great. They've been doing it forever Oh, yeah, and again then making our proprietary show. We're pretty confident in our in our decision And I would I would recommend like always to people go check out the Keller episode because multiple times on the show we have busted the myth of They're just a Keller shells company because that's so not true because we've talked about it multiple times where Keller makes Proprietary shells for people like I've bought a Keller shell and I made a snare myself from like Drum supply house or whatever. It's totally different from Keller providing shells to companies Like you guys so Keller is awesome. Yeah, I love I love reading stuff like that online It's they're just cake decorators or they're just whatever like dude like I Okay, like those people I'll never can I'll probably never convince I hope that our actions speak louder than words and they can just see that we're just we're more than that but it's it's very difficult to Be all running and operating a business such as a custom drum company in the territory that we're in You know the acoustic drum market is not growing You know electronic drums and other things are are making our little niche market not expand rapidly To then start making your own shells as a very young company is hard man And I give probably all of the companies that are doing it, you know Obviously DW makes their own shells all the big guys do I was really excited when CNC started You know pressing their own shells bill and the guys over there do an incredible job It's just it's a it's a totally different business to run and we were having a hard enough time operating Just building custom drums using Keller shells To throw an entire new You know process not just one little step of a process like that's a big deal Yeah, it was it's a lot man I don't I don't know when we'll get to that point It's definitely a dream of ours to be there, but I can't have it take away from from our core No, our core business No, I mean why fix what's not broken. Yeah, I mean, yeah, and the killer I appreciate you doing that killer episode because I thought it was really cool. They've They've been the only company doing what they do, you know Making drum shells for hobbyist drum builders like ourselves They've been doing it the longest and they're really great at wood and you know their drum shell part of their business is such a small part of their business like they're You know Yeah, they that was a major thing that again we've talked about the show But like I mean there that is a tiny portion of a major company who is building, you know They are like you said they're wood experts Cool man. So then Jumping forward let's stick on a timeline here. So then going into like the 2010s How did stuff go from there? I mean that's we just finished up that decade. What was that decade like in in in a retrospective? Yeah, I mean the past decades been Exciting fun really hard and challenging like the early like 2010 through 2015 We went through some massive growing pains struggles like really becoming a business where We employed 20 people. We had an accountant full-time We were you know payroll and health insurance and taxes and there was a recession You know right before that and we weren't sure how we were gonna how we were gonna handle it We had just started doing NAMM, which we were spending $50,000 to go to NAMM to be a part of that Even though we weren't really doing dealers. We were still direct to consumer We were really going through this time of like, okay We kind of for a little bit followed in the footpath of some of the other custom brands out there And we're doing what they were doing But then we kind of quickly broke into our own in this uncharted territory where it was like the big companies Haven't done this, you know done 100% direct to consumer You know been building drums for some of the crazy bands like we were on Warped Tour and Really pushing the limits on on drum building in the craft It was it was really hard man, and I I dealt with some tremendous stress You know not being able to pay bills and and having a lot of expectations out there where social media was huge and people Thought we were this massive Company where at that point we had you know had to do some layoffs and it was like a dozen people Everybody wearing 20 to 50 hats and running around like crazy trying to exceed expectations of our drummers and you know Hit deadlines, and it was really hard. My brother and I split up at that point Went through a really really terrible Family dynamic Really, you know circling around the company. It was hard man. It was like I Would not want to go through it again, but I'm glad that I did do a lot of the things that I'm glad a lot of the things happened the way they did Because it made me realize certain things over the past few years And I'm so grateful for what I have now that SJC's kind of come out of that in full circle like I'm able to Be way more grateful for the things that we've got and my family dynamic is a lot better Because of that so it was it was a tough decade for sure, but 2010 through 2020 We built some of the craziest stuff and we were really building that foundation of what SJC is now externally it It was really cool, but internally was extremely hard Yeah, yeah, I'm sure Working with family. I mean you obviously love your family, but like that's got to be I Mean there's got to be something to that of like you you You almost can't get in fights with people the way you do with your family because you're so close to them that you're like No, they're not gonna let go. I see you can almost just like lose it in a certain way with your family Yeah, you lose it in a split second and in a different way you would with anybody else and I hate that like I'm so I'm not proud of how I acted and the things that I had in my head and the way that I perceived certain things But I was you know, I still am a kid I would you know, it was it was hard man My brother and I were so young like mid 20s and we had grown this company to a pretty sizable business with again 20 or so employees and there was a lot of pressure on my brother Scott there was a lot of pressure on me and I can't speak for him, but I definitely didn't Respect and appreciate the things that he was doing for the business I was just so concerned with my world in the business and being stressed about artists wanting You know crazy drums in like a week and I'm like gosh like yeah I want to say yes, and I'm gonna say yes because it's a huge opportunity But here I am handing it over to my brother and he's just like oh my god, dude What the what the heck is like I can't do this in a week, and I'm like well I said yes So you gotta do it. Yeah, it's just like kaboom you fight and then you know A lot of the employees were were just buds from town or guys in my band that were working essentially for free and so these little These little clicks were formed and it was like well We don't like Scott because Scott's fighting with Mike and I'm like cool These guys have my back and I'm a kid again, so I'm like yeah, my brother. He's a jerk. Whatever You know it was a lot worse than that and I'm ashamed of a lot of this stuff that went on But we do we fought like because we were kids. We were just little little Little boys like teenagers pre-teen Making drums and like trying to be cooler than the other or like it was perfect harmony for so long and it worked And it built the business up because we had to stubborn Orca holics, you know behind the drivers the driver's seat But at a point it was enough is enough and we took some time apart and I'm glad we did Yeah, I mean, you know at least it's all private and you didn't air your grievances on national television For everyone to see yeah, you're right. Maybe we didn't do that. That was no, I'm kidding So we should talk about that. So you were on the TV show the Prophet which I remember seeing it on TV when it was live. I mean this was what year was that and that was 2015 that was right in the middle of this decade of yes craziness Yeah, so for people who don't know that's I like the show I mean, I love those like kind of like business he shows like that. So it's Marcus Lomonas, right? Yep. Yep And he maybe you should describe what is what is the the maybe the you know, what is the premise of the show? Yeah, so it's the Prophet is Marcus is a wealthy businessman very smart businessman. He owns camping world Or is this he's the CEO I think of camping world and just a really smart do that that made a lot of money in his career And CNBC decided to have him host the TV show where he goes in kind of like bar rescue where he goes in and Fixes your business. He invests in the business. They really show all the dirty laundry of why your business has failed up until then And he goes in and gives his expertise and in a check To hopefully fix your business and I'm I was such a huge fan of that show and shark tank and bar rescue because being an entrepreneur I loved watching behind the scenes of what other entrepreneurs are doing what they were doing, right? What they were doing wrong what these people implemented into their company that helped fix them It was like it's like it's like man. This is like going to college right here as I'm learning learning like in real life and so we applied to be on the show because as I mentioned in 20 2010 to 2013 was there was a lot of turmoil inside the company like where are we gonna go? What are we gonna do? Are we gonna be a company? How are we gonna sustain and that was right around when my brother and I were we're going our separate ways and Yeah, I applied to be on the show because I needed help and I had I had I had put a suit on Far too many times and gone to the banks asking for a loan and asking them to believe in the company and having them all be like Your company is awesome and this sounds so cool And your business your business presentation is the best we've ever seen but we can't give you a loan because you have No history we never had a history of having a loan we never borrowed money before so you know a decade in for Having a company without without many assets. We didn't own a building. We didn't have a ton of equipment You know, we're drum builders. We've got a bunch of inventory some table saws and custom router tables that we built You know, we didn't have a lot and so I was just like screw it I'm gonna go and apply on the profit casting calm and I did and boom a month later I'm on the phone with the production company and then I'm in LA at their office and then a week later They're at NAM filming us. What'll happen? Oh, it'll happen really fast and we were I had a ton of plans I used to drum tech for rancid and I was supposed to go to Japan and all these tours with them and CNBC was like nope You can't go anywhere because we're gonna show up at your shop at any time in the next three or four months Well, that was a wild experience There's so many things like about that show that are It's it's got to be weird to have someone all you know all up in your business You're like you almost feel like you can't be yourself, I guess But you guys did a good job of like I feel like it just it represented drums If well if that makes sense. It's like just getting drums on TV is like It's like the Ringo effect of like, you know, people see drums people buy drum sets. It had to be good for Your you know sales, I guess it had to have a little boost of like, you know It's free advertising. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's cool. I'm I'm very Unfortunately jaded by the whole thing because of the fact that my brother and my my family dynamic and the family drama Came out a little bit because you know, they're they're making TV. It's reality They wanted to get some of that and that's a that's a it's a great story to tell if you want people to watch it but unfortunately it kind of took away from the craft and what we were going through and Really trying to focus on growing the business and like I said, I became a little bit jaded because people people took sides and you know, I'm not mad that they did but I got like hate mail I got a lot of stuff You know people are like you push your brother out and all this stuff and it and it made it really difficult to To focus on the business because I was going through a lot of emotions internally with my family and things like that I hate that people saw Just 45 minutes of like, you know at that point 30 some odd years of our life together And it was it was really difficult. But yeah from a from a business standpoint It definitely helped get eyes on the company and people appreciating how much work goes into it It definitely It definitely got people thinking of SJC differently We're up until that point, you know 15 years of being a company and we had some pretty strong numbers on Social media people seems to care what we were doing. So we were always delivering content And when you deliver content on social media, of course, you're going to put out the best stuff You're going to show your best side You're not going to post the photo of where you think you look uglier where you have food in your Same for a business, right? And so up until that point we're putting these videos out and I would I would go to shows and people like man You must be a millionaire and I'm like Like did I own a custom drum company, man? Like there are points where I actually pay to be there like I have to like, you know, I mean, it's a labor of love I'm not doing this for money. I never signed up to do this to be Extremely wealthy and I think being on national tv showing people like yo, yeah I couldn't pay my bills that week and I had a really hard time Um last year, you know in 2014 the year before that we freaking lost money last year, man I think gave people a better idea of like, okay, like I can't just ask sjc for a free kit every other month and uh I don't you know, it put things into perspective that that we work really hard for what we have and we hustle And we're scrappy and part of me being scrappy was applying for the profit And there are certain people that may have the mindset of You cheated you got an investment a half million dollars, whatever It's like, no, I gave up 50 percent of my company for that and earned the ability for that due to like want to invest in the company Um, so there's multiple ways of looking at it, but I'm I'm really excited. We did it It was an amazing learning experience and at the end of it. Yeah, we got a bunch of free publicity every time That commercial aired it was like massive sjc logo on cnbc, which is pretty cool Which then you become more of a household name to people who aren't drummers who then maybe Mom or dad wants to buy a drum set for their kid and they say well, what about sjc? I saw that on the tv and it's like, you know There you go You and scott so like I I actually went to rewatch it Uh, a couple days ago. I and I you it's not on demand right now, but I can't remember the end you and scott Obviously, you're still both with the company, right? You guys Reconciled or how did I forget how it ended too. I think we were both watching it and it made it look like we reconciled like they got a handshake That was definitely not like a We're good handshake, but they like slowed it down and made it look like a Like a monumental like we're good now Yeah, hands connecting what they showed on tv was definitely not like this is good Like when the cameras were dead like marcus told the cameras to stop rolling because it was so awkward at times Um, boy, we didn't know we were I didn't know my brother was gonna be on it He didn't know they basically showed up at his house and like started filming him Um, so it was really weird for both of us But to be honest like we're really good now and that was one of one of it wasn't the thing but it was one of the things that we were able to laugh about um and uh Like I said before like I'm just really grateful for a lot of the things we went through because it gives me such a different perspective of life and people and business and especially my brother and my family dynamic where um, At a point pretty far after we are filming that, you know, this is still pretty recent that him and I have been hanging out um, but uh Yeah, we we just were like, yeah, and then freaking marcus and you talk about that whole thing And I was like wait, I thought you'd meant this and he'd be like no they freaking did this and I was like, holy So we both kind of uh, we both kind of laughed about it and and truly truly made amends afterwards It's funny. It's like I mean it is based it's it's on a higher level, but it's reality tv, you know I knew we were signing up for that You know, I knew I knew and you got to know watching those shows like It's easy to get sucked in but you're like you're watching an hour-long show Which is really 37 minutes with commercials, you know, whatever that is And they filmed over probably six months to a year and they're cutting down hundreds of hours of footage So the best 45 minutes of like, you know got wrenching or emotionally driven impactful tv Yeah, but So now and I should know this but is scotton are you guys is it just you is scott not with the company now? So it hasn't been made public and I'll say it here first, but yeah, he's he's uh He's he's back in he's kind of being watch right now or he's just like dude. I just want to freaking build drums and um Yeah, we're trying not to make a big big big deal out of it, but I'm gonna openly talk about it And it's wow dude. It is it is effing awesome. It is like that's 20 years and I feel like I feel like we both know so much more now and we appreciate each other so much more now and it dude It's so fun. It's what it should have always been Um, and I'm so scared No, I'm not scared. I'm like I'm like because I know how delicate and precious it is now like I'm like, yeah, I don't know if this would have worked this way when we were 20 years old We have such a grander view of life now In business together and it's just cool man. Like my mom like I said is helping out It's just it's put a lot more fun and a lot more passion back into it for me Because like I said, I got not just from the tv show, but I got jaded of just business Which is very easy to do as many of the hobbyists Whatever you are drum builders, whatever hobby turn into business It's easy to suck the fun out of it, but it's been really cool man Yeah, I mean, but that's classic Drum and cymbal stuff where two brothers work together and then they split apart. I mean, that's piste that's ziljan. I mean, that's uh That's you're keeping true with the tradition of drumming and Yeah, yeah, and you know like like I said, it's it's a it's a delicate thing And I think we both know and understand and respect that where it's just like For a family business to blow up to to Blow up not in a good way, you know our brands kind of blew up But then we blew up internally not in a good way And split in such a tragic way and then it was aired on national tv For a family business to go through that and then kind of come full circle and be Back, you know, that's why we're not talking about it a lot because we don't we don't want to Um, not necessarily we don't want to jinx it, but we just we want to just kind of enjoy Yeah, like definitely behind the scenes like yo, like we're not making a big deal out of this And it's just like really we're really lucky that we went through all that and it's like We're back together like we're back to where it started and where it should have where it should be And I'm very thankful because a lot of family businesses don't get that opportunity, you know You get too old someone You know when you get older someone gets sick or something happens or Someone goes off and does another business and we're we're very lucky to be back together. Um, yeah, it's cool Oh, it's your family. I mean, that's I'm good friends with my brother who's a couple years older than me And I couldn't imagine, you know, I mean that's awesome. Congrats Now I want to talk about someone who has probably been I'm assuming one of the biggest, um Just has to be a little bit of a boost for your business, which is uh, josh done from 21 pilots because I mean, man he 21 pilots is such a massive band, but That is like again, it's the ringo effect where people see him playing it and God that has to be good for you know getting the name out there. He is done done good for your brand 100% man and we didn't know it like A lot of the band most of the bands that we work with were The bigger ones were not Big when we started working with them again back to panic at the disco and gym class heroes and all those bands that were that were massive back then We just started building drum strum and we're like, yeah, this the drummer's cool. The band's really cool We see some momentum and 21 pilots is was that it was like I met uh, my buddy riko I was hanging with riko. He was drum teching for a band and we were talking and he was like, hey This is band from ohio 21 pilots like they seem like they're gonna they're getting some traction like the drummer Loves acrylic stuff and he wants to build his own drums But you should you should talk to him and he linked us up and josh and I talked and he was like, yeah I was actually thinking about building my own kit. Um, but yeah, I've heard of sjc. Um, I actually have a kid I bought around ebay. Let's let's do it and we built him on a blue acrylic kit and it seemed like a month later They're on the mtv vmas. They're just blowing up. They're massive and josh is one of those Extremely charismatic guys behind the drums where he's super likable and he's soup. He plays with such enthusiasm and in such a Such a cool way it makes you want to play the drums and their music is obviously really cool and catchy and they just They hit it and they they blew up And josh done has become a household name and drumming which is so cool For him and for them and uh for us to be a part of that and to to really genuinely become friends and like Drum partners with josh before they were huge was really awesome because we have each other's backs in a different way now Or it's like yeah, dude like we we you know, he knows we like him for him and not because he his band is massive And he knows that I have his back no matter what and uh, yeah, dude. We we do a lot of josh done product He's got a signature kit. He's got he's had a few signature snares by now We've done a ton of practice pads and man It's really cool to see like he's doing for for For modern drumming, you know, what travis barker did 15 20 years ago and travis is still doing it Obviously, that's not to say he's not still Um influencing but josh done Um, it just reminds me, you know, because I was 13 watching travis barker being like I got to do everything He does I need to set my drums up the same way and I see kids doing that we sell, you know We've sold thousands of practice pads um To young up-and-coming drummers Fans of the band that were like, I'm just gonna get it because it's got a 21 pilot's logo And then they get josh's zilgen stick and they're like and I see him on twitter doing a paradiddle and it's like That's so cool. Yeah, he's inspiring the next generation of drummers and uh What a cool dude as well like he's the he's the raddest guy like he's so easy to work with and so supportive um, and it's it's uh We're really lucky to work with him and i'm so i'm so uh proud of of of him and uh, just just stoked for that relationship That's awesome. It's cool. Yeah, I mean being an ohio guy. It's cool. They're from two hours where I uh from where I live and a friend of mine Um alex elkins. He actually shot. I think he was a camera operator, but he worked on that stressed out video Um where they're riding the big wheels, which is now at like I think i'm looking at it's 2.1 billion views Um youtube and he shot another one with him, which is really cool, which I recommend for drummers It's 21 pilots. I think if you type in josh done mute math. It's basically uh, darin king from mute math mixed with 21 pilots. Um And it's just a cool mix of two great drummers. Um, and he alex shot that one as well Yeah, he did a great job that the mute math video is phenomenally done. That was awesome Yeah, or he might have been dp director of photography on that but anyways, so um, this leads perfectly into the my probably one of the last questions here of So you guys went from being totally like custom house. Um, you know, you call and you get you know, you say you want your I want my drums to look like a cheeseburger and you guys make it Like max sabbath who i've seen live by the way max sabbath unbelievable I recommend max sabbath to everyone but um You guys then went to like now guitar center sweetwater now you can just get a get a you know Get a kit without custom ordering it. What was that process like going from custom to um You know more stock drums. Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a um, thank you for touching on that I I I love this topic because it it can be such a uh debatable thing I'm very proud of how we've rolled everything out You know we early on and probably like 2007 my brother had the idea He's like, hey, let's make a series like I'll just stand in the paint booth and you run drum shells into me one by one And we'll paint them and we'll do Orange and red and green stains and we'll call it the tour series And we did 10 different tour series for the you know from 2007 to 2010 or whatever it was and we always liked the the idea of Mass producing or mass assembly in our little custom way. It was able to gain some efficiencies You make a little bit more money. You get more drums out there. Um, you grow the brand That's the name of the game when you have a business grow the brand and do it in a way that you can you know stand behind So we always had that kind of mentality and then when we did the profit in 2015 You know mark is putting money in obviously allowed us to do certain things to our custom shop But it also allowed us to open the door To you know other product lines and marcus was pushing the good better best series and he wanted He wanted the good kit to be under a thousand bucks for an entry level drummer And when we were pushing us, you know, he on the tv show it showed us making a natural kit That we had as our good kit that we sold online Uh for I think like 1,100 bucks or something, but it wasn't sustainable because we weren't making Um any money on it anybody that's building drums even with you know the highest efficiencies Um after shipping and all that stuff, you know shippings included in that you're only making There's slim margins on a lot of that stuff so You know we really wanted to get into the hardware business and so we um I went over to taiwan and visited some of the factories To build some some stands. We really wanted to do pedals and all that stuff And uh when I was there like we just had we just saw some samples of the drums they built and these factories were They were incredible the the few factories that I visited um throughout taiwan Had extremely passionate builders in there like people that loved building drums and some of these facilities were state of the art Like i'm not kidding six floors With a with an elevator that goes through and like a whole floor dedicated to Lacker drying and curing and The the the the bottom floor was full of these amazing veneers and exotic woods that I had never seen I was just like this is not what I expected um, you know the the the the prejudice I guess of of of uh asian Product in general I think was just skewed and I I certainly had a skewed vision of that And I was extremely impressed with the people I went out to lunch and dinner I was there for a week and um I went to to lunch and dinner every day with these people and what great people like i'm Lifelong friends with some of them now and i'm so lucky to have them in my life and so we We went in and we did uh, we designed some drums. We called our players choice. We designed a few kits We were really um conservative at first with like a walnut lacquer and a red lacquer They did okay, but the whole time I was like the sjc dna isn't there like we need to really Make something different if we're gonna truly be proud of these drums that we're obviously trying to hit a certain price point We wanted to do stuff like signature kits with josh from 21 pilots that weren't 2,500 bucks, you know um, and so we we reinvented a lot came out with some fun colors cyber yellow and miami teal and Just you know eye catching colors that are within the sjc dna and uh, we went very slow. We had just sweet water Carrying them. We had you know, alto music and drum flip a couple small mom and pop shops And we just went really slow with it because I did not want it to take away from the experience of Unboxing your sjc kit or being on our our website or on getting a post on social media or having us call you out I really wanted to make sure that that customer interaction stayed um intact and What really helped was we started a few years ago doing drum clinics Presented by vans and so it was in a really big way We were able to have a crew of six or seven people come out and really put on a really cool show Um, and we'd promote these products to the younger players at school of rock or whatever it may be um, and yeah, dude, we're we're actually we're not in guitar center yet, but uh this this third day Uh, this podcast is probably gonna be out past it, but in a few days, um, um, uh, I'm super excited We're we're announcing that we're gonna be in all the guitar centers of the with those products We've we've held out on that for you know over a decade. I've I've known the guitar center guys for a long time and we've we've always Uh, never been confident in doing it because I didn't think that we'd be able to supply I didn't want to put stuff out there and have it stutter step and take away from our core competency as a custom drum company Um, but we've built the foundation now where we can supply it and we've got the right product We've tested the market and I think we can truly um be one of the the the Small custom drum companies that makes going into guitar center successful And that coupled with our clinics that we do presented by vans when when we're able to get out there again And and people can uh can congregate in uh, you know parties more than 10 people Um, we're certainly gonna do some really cool stuff at guitar centers across the u.s. And I I can't wait That's awesome. I think you're smart to be I guess cautiously optimistic is a good word for it Where you're like you're not jumping into anything. So that's that's awesome. I can't wait to see that and um, thanks man And we're lucky because the the gc team, um gets it like uh, they they they've known it I've I've always been really upfront in in business and I've always just told them my fears and why we didn't do it And they get it. So we're starting in like 20 store. Maybe a dozen or 20 stores a few skews We're gonna test it out in their market. We're gonna seem like we always do We're gonna go get on top of it and we started producing drums in taiwan I made a video threw it up on youtube and I was just like hey sjc is is producing drums in taiwan now before anybody You know, uh, uh, throws us under the rug or says that we're selling out Here's why and here's what it's gonna look like and I went to taiwan and I visited the factories and everything that I just said Um to you I I just was way up front with it And I made the video about gc and I'm we're gonna be very transparent in everything that we do Um, because I know there can be some negative, um connotation associated with going with a big box store Um, but I feel I feel very confident that we've we've done the right steps And uh, we're gonna open it up slowly and I keep it sustainable. So i'm stoked Yeah, I mean I think uh a good the flip side of looking at it is now you're giving the You're giving a young kid who cannot afford a you know, a pro drum set is typically two thousand three thousand dollars A kid can't afford that but he loves josh done and he wants to play like his hero So now he can actually go save his money work all summer and buy a drum set that his hero uses, um And that's sort of a you know, disney movie version of it where the kid is working behind it, but it's It's cool and it makes it more accessible and I would say also that I think the keller shells thing and the taiwan Um, you know, it's lesser in quality ron danette really set me straight on that on an episode where he said no no no It's not lesser quality. I've been there. I've been to the factories and you're saying the same thing where it's like These are high quality drums um, it's it's not a you know It's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It's just making it so it's more you can they can do this Side of the business for you while you keep focusing on your You know core competency. Um, so totally that stigma is being being broken a little bit, which is great Yeah, yeah, and and again we're we we're we're walking in paths that haven't been walked before where you know We've been direct to consumer bringing sweet water in they were a little bit hesitant like hey You guys are going to still sell direct. It's like, yeah, you know, we that's our core business We have to be able to take take orders directly We'll certainly be fair and and not take business away from you But if a kid calls us, um, it hasn't you know talked to sweet water or been to gc You know, we have to be able to continue to do that and we've um, everybody's you know, everybody's aware of it And it's it's different every other business has been like, yo We're in guitar center and we do all the brick and mortar stores and we don't even we don't even have an e-commerce platform We don't sell direct so we've done things a little bit differently and we're lucky that people The people like guitar center and sweet water and all the dealers I mentioned still support us Um, but you know, we we're going into uncharted territory. We don't know what it's going to look like but We care about the business a lot and I'm I'm I'm uh obsessive over it So I'm going to make sure nothing uh nothing happens And if it goes off the tracks a little bit, which is bound to happen This is life and business mistakes happen and things happen. I'm I'm prepared to set it back on the on the tracks immediately Yeah, good. Good. It's good to be, you know obsessive over things in a good way and yeah, that is uncharted territory where you're You're selling and then there's a distributor because you're usually from what I've learned through the show is that's a That's a like a oh, no, no, no, no, we're doing this distribution. You better not be selling behind our back kind of thing so So yeah, you're you're changing the game there. Um Awesome, Mike. Well, I think um Oh, I want to as we wrap up here. So my experience. I have played uh, my friend Aaron Roy's SJC kit we did like he did a video series for a while where we would try beers and then play on his drums and he has I think one or two SJC kits and um, and we'd play kind of bass drum to bass drum and um, I'll train when I when this comes out I'll share that video. Um, but um, awesome drums very high quality Just like you hold them and they feel you know I mean everyone who listens knows that feeling if you pick up a drum And it feels right. It just feels solid. It feels well built. Um, and and SJC is definitely that So I'm awesome. That was my first experience and I was like blown away. That's awesome. Thanks, man And thanks Aaron Aaron Roy the drummer. Thanks for uh showing Bart your kit and yeah, I appreciate seeing that man. Yeah, you can definitely tell quality when you uh when you when you pick it up and um We've we've always been proud of that we we use the highest quality components and We're obsessive man. Like, you know, it's uh, it's a labor of love and the people building the drums at SJC are our Uh are as obsessed as I am. So it's really cool. Yeah for sure. Okay last question So you're obviously like the king of the like modern Again, I don't want to say new school because it seems like I don't know that's not it's a good thing You're the king of like the new school very cool Um drums, do you yourself? Do you have any like vintage drums? Do you have like a little like a you know a drum collection? What's your you know? Do I uh I recently So yeah, no, I don't I wish I did a couple years ago. Um when we When Trey cool came on to SJC. He's a huge vintage guy. Yeah, here's another one Yeah, you got a collection man of like some incredible vintage kits and I'm like I want to do that. Like I want to I want to start collecting. Um, I would love to have a canon top hat kit Those over a lot of money. Um, just had just had a baby a few years ago So, uh, my wife would not be stoked if I spent 10 grand on a on a On a three piece. No that kit. I saw one at chicago drum exchange a few years ago But um, yeah, that's my dream to have a had a canon top hat kit and I'd love to have a few snare drums um, you know The the old school roger stuff or you know, I just I never I've never really allowed myself to um, I'm not a collector of of Of really anything but very recently. I'm like kind of starting my dream board of what I would what I would want to get someday That's awesome. I talked to don Bennett from don's drum don Bennett drum vault the other day and he We were talking about the top hat and cane kit and he said he's had Easily 10 of them come through his hands and I think he has three of them right now So, um, that's awesome. He's your he's your guy. Um, and also I have a one year old So I feel your pain on everything for you goes completely You're in the back seat, man Yeah, yeah with no idea like I love it man My my my wife was three and a half now and uh, congrats on having a one-year-old man. I'm sure you're you're loving it I hope um, oh, yeah, it's so fun. It's it's the best So yeah, now I'm like, you know, I just I've never had a hobby man Like it was just drums and building drums my whole life and playing drums Um, and I recently got into mountain biking so I go and I cruise with my son And I just you know, he's only three and a half but as as we keep doing this I'm like, I have all these grand visions of like, all right, I'm gonna get him a mountain bike I'm gonna buy a truck and I'm gonna do all this. So I think that's gonna be my hobby before I start vintage drums Yeah, it's so funny because like Like I literally was thinking the other day I was like, man, I need to get like we both are drummers. We both do stuff with drums But I was thinking I need to get a different hobby Or I need to get a hobby and I'm like to most people What we do is a hobby, but it's not when you're doing it a lot. Yeah, for sure, dude when it takes, you know 80 hours of your week, you know that to Feel accomplished or to feel like you're not gonna be buried come Monday morning. Um for sure Cool. So, um, again, I want to thank, um, Nick Angelini From wale city percussion. I think I said wale city drums before wale city percussion. Um Uh forgetting us connected. Um, thank you, Nick And Yeah, so everyone, uh, Mike, why don't you tell everyone where they can find you? I'm sure it's pretty easy, but I think that's a good way to wrap it up. Yeah, totally. Yeah, thanks bar Thanks everybody for listening. Um, hope you hope you enjoyed in uh, yeah for real. Nick. Thanks for Thanks for your support all these years, man And thanks for connecting connecting us and uh the interest of rad dude and playing in one of the coolest punk bands ever Yeah, people can find us on sjc drums.com. That's our website pretty cool Historical timeline and some videos and tons of photos of all the custom drums we build uh or instagram At sjc drums. We post content every day. We love posting about our drummers and uh Repost and you know some some cool cool stuff. So hope you hope you enjoy and really appreciate the time Cool. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being on the show, Mike This has been uh, this has been a real pleasure to have you as my my first kind of like Modern uh drum builder. You're doing a great job and and keep it up, man. I really appreciate it If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast