 is just afternoon. Welcome to this webinar on shared services. My name is Joss Crease, I'm the chair of this session and I've been working with both EdgyServe and Socketim on a whole range of shared service issues based on the recent recent research. I'm shortly going to introduce my expert panel but just to kick off first of all delighted you could join us for what I think promised us to be quite an insightful view into shared services from the experts we've got on the panel. Many public service organisations are reviewing the part that shared services can play and indeed the role of technology within that. I think it's fair to say that in the past sharing was about a sort of a collaboration to stave. It was driven particularly by trying to be more efficient, more productive, sharing resources and sometimes there was only a fairly weak integration and collaboration often a little bit reluctant but I think we're now seeing a whole range of deeper and more complex models emerging with true partnerships from integrated digital platforms being shared to the full merging of councils. There are also though I think it's fair to say have been some casualties along the way and recent research from Socketim reveals what does and doesn't work in sharing. EdgyServe have been working with Socketim and have looked at the topic recently publishing research as well as a freely available tool called RASP which we'll hear about a little bit later on which helps with some of the due diligence planning around shared services. So to assess this rich opportunity of risk and change I'm delighted to welcome my expert set of panellists. First of all we have Ed Gazes, a leading voice and expert in shared services for dare I say many years and currently CIO and CDO for Camden, Haringey and Islington shared service. We also have Emma Marinos, director of modern eyes at Suddak borough council who've recently joined the Brent and Lewisham shared service. I've known Emma for a while she's an expert witness on sharing and one of the first to use the RASP tool in earnest. Also very pleased to welcome Max Salisbury he's the editor for the Socketim shared service research work and I've been very closely working with Max on that so delighted you could join us from Socketim Max and finally and certainly not least Natasha Venendal who is the lead for the EduServe executive briefing program. They've including the development of the RASP tool with Socketim and Natasha will be engineering today and contributing through the discussion I hope as well. So welcome to my panellists each of them are going to give their take for all of you who are listening in you should have the screen in front of you allowing you to ask questions so please don't be shy about this as we go through if you want to either raise a general point a general question or indeed wants to point a question at one of my panellists just type in as briefly as you can what you would like to ask and I will try and make sure that that gets answered and if we can't have for everything in the 45 minutes we will certainly be making a write up and there is a recording of the of the session so without more ado perhaps I could start by asking Ed to lead on his take on sharing and I know you've got a particular view about the role of trust in all of this Ed so over to you fantastic thank you Joss and hello everyone I guess diving straight into it and following on from the points that Joss has just made one of the things that I think sits at the heart of sharing services and doing that effectively is being explicit about the trade-off between the extent to which we trust people and the extent to which we are able to apologies Natasha if we can go back one slide the extent to which we trust people and the extent to which we're willing to give up some of our sovereign turf if you like so the slide in front of you shows a very simplistic kind of two-dimensional view of how with greater trust and a greater willingness to give up turf so we can get further away from simply co-existing and through to actually fully integrating our planning our funding and our decision-making around the shared services that we adopt or the sharing that we endeavor to do I think sitting within the same framework for me anyway is a key thing about trust and sharing inevitably mean compromise and sovereign organizations very often that there are kind of different views that we need to manage and get around and if we can find a way rather than having a crucial trade-off or or fun fight for something we can actually talk about sequencing stuff for example and show a shared progression that really helps us to do things together rather than apart so one of the things that falls quite neatly into this space for me is also how we can start to use this language to drive a shared strategy if you like and no point in the spectrum is right or wrong but actually what's crucial is that we see the further down the left we are the more opportunities there are to combine for example technology that the more limited the benefits are and then the further right we get the fewer opportunities there are for for that really deep kind of integration but the greater the opportunities are and I think if all of the stakeholders in a shared service have a shared understanding of just how much disruption and complexity they're willing to embark and face up to as part of their shared service so it's easier to build that shared understanding that trust and if you like almost set a pace that's based on kind of measured steps of getting to the place that we all want to be and very often I hear people talking as if they want the benefits of the kind of same service level of integration but actually are not willing to adopt the same platforms for example so I think this kind of framework this kind of language allows us to understand both the kind of level of trust that's required and also the kind of level of shared ambition that's needed to successfully deliver a shared service a strategy that sets out whether we're aiming for the same service the same instance the same infrastructure the same tech can be really helpful in forming that thinking and moving towards it in a common way thanks Ed that's very helpful indeed interesting point just one very quick question if I may on your previous slide where you start with a sort of coexist through to the deep integration perhaps Natasha you could move back one slide do you see that as a journey I mean do you see a need to start at the sort of coexist level and migrate at maybe at pace but migrate through or can you leap in if the trust is there at the higher end of that spectrum I think that's a really good question just I think there's I mean if I'm honest I think this is what the slide is trying to show is where we want to end up if you like and then so to your question is it possible to start at any point or do we have to work through the steps I think I personally believe it's possible to start at any point so I was having this conversation with some stakeholders the other day there are kind of two views on trust there's a view that says trust is earned and in order to show ourselves worthy we have to start to deliver and then build up that reputation and trust that allows us to move further down the right hand side of the slide yes there's another view that says there's a kind of parental trust model where actually we trust from the outset and yes that trust you know maintaining that trust has to be earned but we don't start off having to earn it at the get go and I think those different masks yeah those different kind of starting points are really key because if we see a shared service not as the formation of a new organization but actually of the as the coming together and creating a new thing that we share it's much more akin to parental trust and I think to make it compete in its infancy to make it earn its trust in its infancy is perhaps jeopardizing its ability to succeed I mean I think those are really interesting points and in terms of the practical application and managing the risks associated with that I mean you know if you if you misunderstand where you are on the trust spectrum and you jump in at the wrong level you're clearly going to have some risks which I think brings us on quite nicely Emma if I may bring you in at this point to your experience particularly around the due diligence I know you've used the rasp at all and perhaps you could you could give us your take on that yeah absolutely so we became part of the shared service of parental new issue on the 1st of November so it's very early days and for I think what was in common for both ourselves and new issue is that we've been outsourced for many many years so I think talking about trust I think that probably for both of our organizations I certainly can talk for some that there was a trust deficit in terms of IT's ability to deliver so there was very much of you to want to do something different to deliver are particularly keeping the lights on services using a different model so what we did very early on if just move on to the first slide is we had a workshop with very senior people in all three organizations and we both started to look at different parameters for the shared service really trying to understand where what are different points of you were and to see where our similarities are and where our differences are because I think that then enables the ability to not have assumed that people have got a certain point of view when we don't actually know so we individually went through this through these parameters and looked to see what we how we view this and so you know if we take take one take the last two we're converging we'll stay unique and so so what was our individual organizations point of view around that or where we want to grow or two or three partners is enough so we individually scored these and actually it was interesting because we were on most of these parameters pretty much in alignment there were a couple where we were different particularly around growth so that was really helpful so that we were starting this relationship with our eyes open so we and it was also I think the other thing to say I think emotions can run very high when you're talking about things like this because I think particularly depending whether you're the sharey or the share or depends where the power is and how much you want to be open about things and the way that this workshop was run it was done in a very non-defensive neutral way so people could be very open and honest which I think was really helpful so then we started to do the shared service still with due diligence and part of that so it was sort of a few months in by now it was in the summer of it's probably about the summer julyish time this year and very helpfully edu serve was we're developing the raft ready readiness assessments and what we did here was we got both southern and Brent because Brent's the lead authority to score where we were by answering a number of questions around all these different aspects of how ready we were for shared service and again even though we may have scores may have been different the pattern was pretty similar and the areas that really where we identified the gaps were really around not all the technical stuff not all the due diligence and all the contracts and all the estate review and it was all to do really around communications business buy-in political backing agreeing things like agreeing the principles that we were going to work for being a viral seller that branding the identity and what was really helpful for me was that the project team kind of I think it was probably a bit of a light bulb moment that there were certain gaps that we needed to fill in order for this to land smoothly as possible so we then we engaged someone someone to work with us around communication and engagement with the business and somebody dedicated on it really that was their sole purpose was to do that and that meant that all the kind of stakeholder management all of the mass communication because we were moving from a online only from a help desk which is online only rather than telephone we did a lot of road shows we did a survey we did a lot of engagement so come the 1st of November it very much people knew and understood why we were doing this and were open to the change so that's kind of the journey that we've been on around building trust and implementing a new shared service which as Ed has said it's a new it's a new organization we're very much describing it as being akin to an in-house service that is delivering to three local authorities so that we don't try and manage this contract and inverting commerce as if it's an outsourced contract because then it's not it's different and going through this process has helped us all within all three councils understand how we would work in a very different way than we have done in the past and I'll leave it at that yeah Emma thanks for that I mean that you know there's so much material here the bit about finding a way of safely rationalizing the the differences the issues you know whatever you want to call them so that you can have an objective conversation about them I think is really is really powerful as is the the point that I think you're raising that this has to be a partnership of of equals it's not you know the big selling to the small or anything else so I think that's really interesting any other comments from my panelists on on on either of those first two pitches no nothing nothing from me nothing from me just okay well what I'd like to do is just to introduce our last panelist max max you and I've been working together on quite a lot of analysis on the current state of shared services particularly around ICT absolutely so what I'd be interested to hear from you is a little bit about you know why why does Socketton think this matters what are you finding where are the lessons are there any things that that perhaps differ from or complement what you've heard from both Ed and from Emma here by the way if you're listening in please do give me questions okay yeah sure where to start the I was actually going to conclude the the little talk I was I've got with a list of things that we have trends that we've discovered and things that have surprised us I was going to leave that to the end so if you may I might do that you go through it you go through it in the way you've you've set it out yeah is that is that okay it's just that it's it ties into that at the end which and I think it's a it's a kind of it's a nice conclusion so if I can I'll I'll go through it now if that's all right from the start yeah everybody happy with that I'm so I hope everybody can hello everybody I hope you can hear me okay I'm getting a few issues here myself I'm hoping you can you can all hear everything clearly but I've got a bit of drop out but anyhow yeah hi thanks for listening today yeah I'm Max from Socketton so I'm just going to go through I've got a few slides here I'm just going to go through this little piece I've got so first of all 2011 we published an in-depth 60 page report called successful sharing a practical guide for local public services which looked at the state of shared services service leaders at that time we use six contrasting case studies isn't it that followed our seminal work planting the flag a strategy for ICT enabled public services reform in which we advocated shared services as one of six strategic capabilities needed to make reform of local public services a reality so these are some of the opportunities to develop shared services we identified ICT infrastructure so that'd be public service networks and data centers for example and associated services which could be aggregated and managed by fewer organizations so pretty clearly really senior professionals managing and running in running ICT infrastructure and support desks and specialist technical support which could also be shared we identified that ICT could be put in place to enable organizational change information sharing and integration such as with health and social care and then capabilities and leadership governance strategic commission in supplier management and professionalism which could also be shared since then we've developed a rationale for delivering better outcomes by simplifying services standardizing processes and sharing solutions so I'm going to cover the help of these slides it is hopefully it won't go on too much not going to be quite brief I'm going to cover the purpose and scope of our shared services research and the published material the audiences we are trying to reach and the key insights from our research and at the end as well before my conclusions actually not quite at the end I'll share some thoughts about the importance of the role of the CIO and the head of ITT in developing and implementing shared service arrangements so let's if I start with purpose and scope we wanted to build a strong evidence base knowing what I sophisticated knowing that a sophisticated and varied range of different shared service management had been evolving in the places served by local governments and their partner and local public service organizations so we're going to use that evidence base in two ways firstly we're going to increase our influence and voice with local and national policy makers about the progress being made and secondly we're going to provide practical guidance to those on the ground seeking to implement shared service arrangements so we're on the right slide here that'll do so audiences we've got four audiences in mind we've got our soccer team corporate members and informed subscribers we've got service heads so for example heads of planning housing or social care and so on C-suite that is chief executives directors council leaders and cabinet members and then finally health and social care so those leaving that implementing integration of services and localities beyond all this we're looking at those involved in policy making and implementation at the national level so that'll be the DCLG cabinet office and the LGA and so on so here are some key insights I think I need the next slide here she's got to click it on yeah that's actually that's yeah that's our list of our guides that are coming out which I'll talk to you briefly about in a minute as well so trust that's being open coming to a common understanding about the strengths and weaknesses of different organizations the RAST tool which we've already discussed can help enormously at that discovery stage adaptability is being open to inevitable changes that will be faced along the way people organizations processes technology priorities and all these things change and then finally outcomes and that's keeping focused on what it is you're trying to deliver and what matters in your place in your communities with your people okay so there we are with some key insights and then the last slide should be here which is the role of the CIO our evidence confirms that the CIO chief information officer has a crucial role to play in delivering the transformational change in localities so in the modern world digitalities intrinsic part of anything that we do but it is not and should never be ended itself different places demographics geographies histories socio-economic conditions and so on prioritize different outcomes and different solutions and so it's really important that we simplify services standardize processes and share common solutions so the CIO has a multifaceted role to play as a servant leader and a tentative collaborator that is listening here in enacting a conductor a broker a facilitator an enabler a regulator of standards and a protector that is and that's covering really important areas such as cyber resilience ethics and of course the coming GDPR okay so I'd just like to wrap it up now I hope I haven't gone too much with a couple of a few things that we've observed that have become themes over the last five years in your shared services and that is that most councils are now engaged in some form of shared service model many of the shared services have failed entirely or failed to scale up cloud service models are disrupting traditional outsourcing and insourcing well many others have grown to substantial size so some shared services have really taken off shared services have increasingly crossing sector boundaries in smart places so that's worth thinking about with the development areas smart places different models of sharing have emerged so there's no single right basis for sharing which is again I think very important and sharing models have had to become more flexible to adapt and survive pretty pretty clearly and this is again important some of the early reasons for sharing which were normally usually driven by economic considerations have proved were proved to be wrong so that's something else that we've we've observed yeah I did say that was a summary I did want to say in the final summary we are at the moment producing nine separate guides to shared services the first one went out last week the second is going out tomorrow there's going to be nine over the coming months which covers of works that what joss was alluding to at the start of this it's he's been working very closely with us on that so there you are there's that's my contribution thank you max thank you for that that's great and you know it's interesting to see this scale and reach of the work that you're doing which I do think corroborates with the sort of experience that both both Ed and Emma have talked about yeah we've just got that rasp the readiness assessment for shared services program the summary of that tool on the screen you can see now so basically you go through an assessment a self-assessment that looks at where you are on each of these five areas and there are descriptions it's an automated tool so there are descriptions you can go through to to sense check where you are and I think I know some organizations do this privately just in order to feel confident in order to then do it more publicly with their with their partners Natasha is anything you wanted to add about the the the rasp tool it's available free to use and I will send a link around with the video from this webinar so that everyone can can easily access that and also more feedback I guess and may I just add because we have used it that it is actually very straightforward to use and you can use it at any point of either thinking about shared service when you're in the middle of a shared service you're a mature shared service I think it's a really good temperature gauge at any point great just before we move on to some some other questions that I think people are raising and I've certainly got in my mind but max just before we conclude you made the important point about the role of the CIO or IT and I think there's something about leadership CIO IT management leadership in this but there's also something about the role of technology you know maybe providing a neutral space such as the cloud platform or or or maybe an alternative to outsourcing as we heard from Emma but but it seems to me that some organizations don't don't really recognize this they don't see IT is any more than a toolkit and certainly some ICT leaders perhaps struggles a step up to the plate I just wondered whether you'd got a view on you know how how we can support CEO leadership's leadership and get that message across that it's it's not just about bits of technology it's about the contribution that open platforms can make to this yeah I think um it's from what I've picked up so far in my admittedly short the message which needs to be pushed through is that this stuff this this technology and these roles are they're not actually say they're not just there as a talk it as as support they're absolutely integral to the way organizations whether they're private or public are moving forward in the world now that they cannot tease them about this technology it just doesn't work anymore like that clearly which has been the case for a long time and I think that the way to to get this message across is certainly the work that we do the with the experts we work with to write our briefings is to get that message across in a way that is that is clear to understand clearly understood by people from outside of ICT but still decision makers all the same people that affect have an effect on how ICT develops and it's about getting that getting that message clearly across in a way that is in this list the audience is we're looking at we're looking at people way beyond IT we're looking at heads of services and beyond that we're looking at decision policymakers at a government national government level I think that's that's certainly what we're what we're aiming at here great thanks thanks for that so perhaps if I can come back to Emma and Ed now want to just touch a little bit on some of the barriers and issues at a practical level that you've seen so you know you've each been through this on a number of occasions you've used some of the tools and techniques you've talked I mean Emma talked a little bit about communications we've not yet talked about politics either with a small or the needs to involve politicians and Ed I was wondering if we start with you your views on some of the obstacles on the challenges along the way here that perhaps we need to be honest about sure I mean I guess just I think yeah I think it was Emma who used the word relationship first but the relationships are really key and as I look at the RASP tool which I think is great and I think it does cover a lot of the you know foundations that underpin a shared service and I think it's almost in my head anyway the levels zero through five correspond to the kind of coexistence combined etc as I would see it so there's something about shared service doesn't mean one thing it means different things having an aligned expectation is important but actually over and above all of that most often used or abused an allergy that I that I pick up on is it's like a marriage and fundamentally you know you can agree all the detail but if you're not getting on you're not getting on and I think there's something in there about expectation there is something about politics my experience in tri borough was that when the politics changed so the relationships changed and I think one of the learnings I took away from that process is simply continuing to focus on the financial benefits was insufficient to rebuild relationships and so you know I'm sure for Emma it'll be even more interesting because she's joining effectively an existing shared service but it's important to create an ongoing sense of you know at the very minimum common understanding of who has what privileges in the relationship but probably a sense of equity for all partners and I think it's in our peril that we forget the need to keep investing in those relationships that both enable us to succeed but also enable us to progress along the journey so that's for me that's the biggest one okay I mean Emma anything to add to that I mean I agree in support what Ed has said it is absolutely vital without being able to work through difficulties and conflict which there will be because you know working in local authorities you've got 600 different services you've got many many heads of service you've got many directors who all have got a very strong view whether that's you know they can do this on their iPad at home so why can't I do it in the office through to wanting to fundamentally change how their own service is delivered using digital technology and everything in between so everyone's got a view and it's our job to navigate that and make sense of it so that progress can be made and it can be done in a way that is constructive and not destructive I think that I mean we're in very early days it's you know first of November we went live but we are even in the early days where we're not happy about things between any of us we are having very very regular meetings and conversations so that we're working through those things now and where there are differences of opinion some of those are they're good and right and proper because I have to that often become something better but it's not done in a destructive way so I think behaviors are really really key and it's not something that you ever there you know using ed's analogy you know you've got to keep working at the marriage you're not it's not going to be right we can wrestle on law it's all fine now it's it's a working progress at all times but I think as time goes on and maturity improves the level of maturity improves you've got more you've got stronger foundations so when those difficulties come up you've got a stronger foundation to kind of absorb things as they come up because it's very you know for all of us in local government it's very very stressful and demanding jobs and roles with people under a lot of pressure and we're there to help people really in those situations that's all I'd like to add yes I think it's a good point and I've certainly seen the shared service agenda being a sort of an additional burden that we just that we just take on rather than treating it as a you know a major change commitment in itself I mean Ed I think you wanted to come back didn't you on that point yeah I mean I just want to build on to some of so some of the other key things I think the yeah and I again I I don't know whether it was Max or Emma but talked about this notion of partnership and you know this being shared services being something we all own and one of the things that I think is really important in that is if we look at the kind of behaviors that sits behind a service that we all own whether it's shared or sovereign it's really important that there be advocacy for the service and I think there's a real risk and and it's a it's a tight balance to get right because obviously you know as as the supplier of those digital and IT services to the organizations and the boroughs we need to be clear on what our promise and our commitment is but we also don't want to be too prescriptive else we fall into the trap of being a supplier if you like in in the kind of commercial sense so it's quite important to to have a clear understanding of what we'll deliver to have some flexibility around changing that that's perhaps more agile than a contracted partner with a with a big C but also to have advocacy within each of the councils that means that you know myself for Emma or other shared service leads on having to run around and pretend that we're sovereign to each or the time because we don't magically have three times as many hours in a week so I think that that behavior relationship advocacy point is the other one that the me feels really key in in creating something that is better than simply the economy of scale that you get from buying through a kind of shared procurement initiative or by being part of you know a code sharing club it's something about being that trusted partner and I'd underline both trusted and partner who has the ability to influence the thinking within the organization but also the kind of relationships that mean that people are willing to listen if that makes sense yeah I mean it does but what about the political agenda so you know I think in the past many shared services have been initiated by IT leaders CIOs in organizations especially around you know sharing technology infrastructure and and we haven't necessarily seen politicians very closely involved from the outset but I wonder given the nature of the sharing that Max was describing that where we're seeing some truly deep integration of services with a real long-term commitment joint commitment and partnership as you say it should we be involving our politicians more right from the outset to get that that level of trust understanding and support when things do go a little bit you know tough which they inevitably will on this sort of thing Emma then Max and sorry Emma then Ed and then perhaps Max you might want to observe on that one yes please I think I think I can speak for obviously for the Southern Brent Lewisham shared service so the there was a lot of political alignment between those three boroughs um so I think that start off with um kind of gave this legs if you like that there was a real commitment from all three politics three sets of politicians so that was really good I think what's what we've done here is that we however have retained sovereignty around our IT and digital strategy recognising that the three boroughs have got different priorities and different cultures so that we're not aligning everything that we do so it's the same that we are recognising that we are different and that where it makes sense to share um whatever that might mean um whether that's between two of the three or three of the three or not at all that's what we would do from a kind of digital transformation aspect so we we haven't if you like um we haven't we haven't decided to go for sharing deeply on everything which I think is quite practical it does make it does make sense so presumably Emma you have to also avoid the situation where you know and I've seen this before each individual partner says well I would like a service handcrafted about our local needs and priorities it looked different from all the services that the other partners are going to have but that that's what we want and then we're on board how do you how do you avoid that sort of customization um well I think the three partners so far again are very sort of coming culturally if you like come from the let's do what works rather than trying to reinvent the wheel and I'm not just talking about IT and digital teams here I'm talking about service heads of service um you know I think some of this is to be tested if I'm honest as we go forward and we will have to take things on a case by case basis I mean I think that will there will be a um a desire to customize I'm sure because you know even within one authority people don't want to share they want their own specific thing that's for them only let alone when it's with three other you know two other local authorities but I think even though coming together in a shared service efficiency is still there as a driver for change and will continue to be for all of us um in the public sector for for time time to come and certainly within my own local authority people are looking to us to guide them about what's the best solution um so it's too early really to say how it will unfold over the next few months but I think coming back to trust we if we start delivering things which we will that make sense are better and save money then why wouldn't you want to do that which brings me nicely on to um the the sort of positive side of sharing one of the things max that I've I've seen in the work that Socrates have been doing is that the drivers and the benefits are much more as I've said in my sort of opening comments than just just achieving greater productivity and um and efficiency which is where we were you know probably seven to ten years ago when shared services suddenly became a big a big deal so you know can I take your your your view on this especially around whether sharing can for example stimulate innovation and new ways of working yeah um from again we are we're a reasonably early stage of um of publishing but putting together our nine reports so I'm still going through a great deal of work on it and I'm still talking to councils and shared services but the the again there are not every story is a success story but amongst the success stories there are the definite indications that the the shared service itself has has led leading to innovation and to new ideas I mean just to just to quickly tie it back Jocelyn if you don't mind to what you asked me a couple of minutes ago about the about politicians about bringing MPs into this and how this ties together I think that it's that it's absolutely crucial that um that the the level of interest is at that is at that level at the MP level because let's face it when it was when outsourcing was the was the big thing um that was that was politically driven that that was that was a that was something that was very important for councils to apparently be doing to be to be looking to be bringing in private companies to to take over the services I think that now things have changed so much with austerity um that everything now is about saving obviously so shared services offer that the outlet now the the idea that an MP or MPs might not might only be dimly aware if at all of um of their um shared services in their constituencies that would I think that would be pretty a pretty bleak situation that was okay something they actually need to know that at the very least they need to be involved because just thinking here in Northamptonshire and again I I don't know I don't know enough to know how practical this is if it's actually going to happen but a lot of the talk is is that the the six borough councils in Northamptonshire will possibly be dissolved and the county council will take control of all services as a I guess as a as a um as a money-making system which you could argue is going to be the ultimate in shared services that it's going to come in house into one super council which is the ultimate progression but if that's a sort of that if these kind of um if these kind of potentialities are on the cards issue changes and shared services which is saying look oh you know at its basics we do this you do that we're not in competition one another let's share it we'll both save money and we're in a vape um I think sorry Josh carry on no I was going to say no we're sort of beginning to draw to a close on this but I think you know the interesting point is and and certainly the the research I think max that you were referring to from Socrates indicates quite a wide range of drivers now for sharing including you know things like standardization removing duplication bringing together capacity and skills that will make a big big difference so are there any final very very brief comments from Ed or Emma on that we've got a about 60 seconds before we we close this one one down nothing from me Ed any observations yeah I mean my my key perspective Josh is I think of course the politicians have to be involved and in practice I think most of the time that means um you know cabinet members and and in some cases back benches I think they can be huge advocates but I I think and this is to that kind of innovation or shared learning if you like often seeing the way others have solved the problems that we all face is the starting point to innovating and thinking differently it comes back to trust you've kind of got to be willing to share you know the good and the bad yeah but if you can do that I think we can move conversations away from you know how do we get the throughput from x to x plus three and actually say how could we do this differently and I think if nothing else a shared service creates an opportunity to bring those stakeholders together to have those kind of slightly more open-minded conversations which is a great point awesome which is a great and positive point to to finish on and that certainly I think corresponds with what each of you have been saying this afternoon on this point I want to thank my panelists Ed, Emma, Natasha and Max thank you very much for taking the time to be with us on this webinar I think it's been a very interesting discussion there is a lot of material available for those of you who have been online the rasp is freely available the socket in research will be coming out we'll be writing this up there is a clear role for technology and technologies to pay a part in this but what we've seen this morning is that there is a new approach emerging for many shared services that recognizes both the wide range of opportunities as well as the need to support diversity from public service organizations so thank you all very much for joining us and I hope you'll join us on a future edgyserv webinar thank you very much thank you