 Okay, as some of you may know already, it's been seven years since the beginning of the Debian Woman project, and Mike Rahesha will be talking to you about it. Thank you. Right. So, yeah, as the introduction said, the Debian Woman project has by now achieved quite a biblical age. We are now actually at this step in celebrating our seventh birthday, a fact that most of us, when we realized it, made us feel very mixed. We felt happy that we're still around and we're still growing. At the same time, you all felt very old. And of course, there's also a good moment to look back and look at the project, see how the project has developed, how Debian as a whole has developed with respect to the Debian Woman project. And basically, I just do a short review. So first of all, who am I? Well, as mentioned already, my name is Mike Rahesha, some of you might have seen me before, heard me talk before. I've been a Debian user for quite a while now. I joined the Debian project quite shortly after its foundation in 2004. I got there in 2005. I really went the usual way. I used Debian. I liked it. I thought maybe I could do more, join in somehow, become a part of it. I didn't know where to go. I turned to the Debian women. They were really friendly. They welcomed me. They showed me the ropes. After a couple of years, I thought, okay, I should apply for a full Debian developer status. I did and have been ever since. Right. So much for me now. Let's talk about the Debian women project. Seven years ago at Debcon 4, 2004, a couple of ladies who you can see here sat together and got thinking. They noticed that there's a surprisingly low number of women in Debian. And they thought that maybe this is something that should be changed for the sake of Debian. And then they got together and they pondered how to do this. And they thought the best thing would be to really have a Debian subproject that took care of that. They consisted of men and women who thought that the number of women should be raised and basically offer a first contact point and a way to contract all the actions that can be done to achieve this. So they got, actually, this is really, really light. So they got working. And what they did was basically the first thing, they set up a website and they explained what the Debian women project is about, what they do, what they don't do. And very quickly, we learned that more importantly than having to explain what Debian women does, which is quite obvious, is to explain what Debian women does not do and more specifically what it doesn't want. So what we do want is more women in Debian, more female contributors, more translators, more developers, more maintainers and so on and so on. And we don't want this for the abstract reason that there should be more women everywhere because women are a great thing to have. And so they should be equally represented in every given group of people. It's because we think that it benefits Debian as a project, as an operating system and as a community. And in order to achieve this, we set up a whole lot of communication channels. There's IRC, there's the mailing list. We had a wiki of our own, which is by now moved into the Debian wiki. We've got the mentoring program that offers the possibility to get into package maintainership. And then we set all this up. And really what we had to do most of the time, especially when giving talks about the Debian women project, was answering questions. And those questions were often rather worried because people asked, well, you know, those Debian women, are they not just some kind of mailing list police, really? Just, you know, like us women sitting there reading all the mailing list posts and basically flaming everyone to a crisp, who does a sexist remark or makes a joke that we feel is unfitting. And of course, that is not what the Debian women project is about. What we are about is making the Debian community an inclusive one and a welcoming one. If that means flaming people to a crisp, we will do it. But it's not the main purpose of the Debian women project. Also, we do not want to create a Debian fork for women. This is something that's always coming up. There's always people asking, you know, why do you have a sub-project? Why do we have a mailing list of your own? Why did you have a wiki of your own? Why do we have an IRC channel of your own? This smells like a fork. Do you want to make some women Debian? You know, like, I don't know, pink default colors or I don't know. And of course, that's not what we want. It's never what we wanted. Another thing is that when you stand on a stage and say, I want more women in Debian, there's always people who say, well, what's the point? What's the benefit of having more women in Debian? Do you just want it because there should be more women everywhere? And if that's the point, are we going to get a quota next year? Or are we going to make, I don't know, the new queue, give us few bonus points to female uploaders? You know, like, one copyright goes free or something. It's a silly thing to say, and I feel silly saying it. But it's come up again and again that people said, you women try to weasel your way into the project and you are not good enough to become like proper developers. So you found this funny little sub-project that basically tries to bully men into giving you a leeway. So we don't. Really, we don't. And then there are those who approach you after a talk and they say, you know what Debian women is great ever since I've been working with the Debian project. I felt that the Debian developers, they're harsh, they're rude, they're technical, they're really, really aggressive. It's good to have some women in there. You know, finally, I have some friendly people to talk to. And you know, now I can talk to you and you can talk to the Debian developers and it's going to be all great because just, you know, women, they are friendly, they're open-hearted, they're all the motherly type and whatnot. And so this is not why you want women in Debian. We don't think that Debian as a whole is unfriendly, so if we add some women, they can be like the friendly front desk towards the world. It's a woman can be an equally unfriendly developer if she wants to, she has this right. Nobody should, of course, but it's not something that was the motivation for us when we thought that the Debian project would benefit from more women. Also, it's not like the Debian women is this kind of project kindergarten where everybody who's unhappy with the project or feels mistreated or treated unjust in some way can go and then we all huddle together and make a comfort hug and I don't know what. The Debian women project, just as any other sub-project of Debian does focus on technical excellence, we do want to communicate knowledge and we want people to use that knowledge and if they don't do that, we're just as unhappy with it as anybody else. And the most of all, as you may notice if you look around in this audience while we are called Debian women, we are by no means a women-only project. In fact, wherever you look, if you look at the mailing list, if you look in the IRC channel, actually the majority of the Debian women are men. So then that's actually a thing that we are really proud of because it shows that the Debian women project is not a bunch of disgruntled women who say, I know we should really have more representation and the project is also a whole bunch of disgruntled men who say the project is somewhat lacking with respect to diversity and maybe we should do something about it, not because somebody makes us but because we think it's the right thing to do. So this is what we set out to do and this is what we did and we've been doing this for seven years which is a horribly long time. And by now the Debian women project has somewhat slowed down. If you look on the mailing list, it's not as much traffic as we used to have. The channel is still really active but more on a social level really. So things have gotten quiet around the Debian women project. Also, this is actually the first talk about the Debian women project itself in five years. So we've had them at the early Debcons in 2004 and five and then everybody knew the project so we didn't feel there was a need to explain once more what we do and who we are. And yeah, over the time there's a feeling that maybe we have outlived our purpose. Maybe we are there, you know. Debian is now a nice and friendly place. There are women everywhere. Like if you look into the respective teams, it's quite likely that you also find a few female members. We are now much nicer. We are even seriously discussing giving ourselves a code of conduct which could not in any way have happened five years ago. This is actually a place I got to think that when I talked to Bida recently, where people are happy to bring their daughters, which is I think the best sign for a project is being really friendly and welcoming. So this is what we feel and this is what we perceive and of course we want to look at some numbers and see if these feelings and perceptions are correct. What you see here is a diagram that shows first uploads by women. So basically this is a diagram over time. We are beginning in 19, this is horribly tiny, but this is 1997 here and then it goes all the way on to today. And basically every time a woman uploads a package, she was never done so before, so every time there's a new female uploader, line goes up. And it's quite nice to see if you look in the colored area, this is the foundation of the Debian Women Project and you can see that the line does rise quite steeply. So obviously there was an effect. There's quite a lot of women who decided that maybe they could use the new skills they got among the Debian Women hopefully to bring them to life, put the package in the archive, maybe two. So this is actually quite nice to see. So yes, things did get better. Now let's look at some other numbers. Let's look at the Debian developers. They're always an easy measure because they can be counted. There's a database, everybody's in there, so it's really easy to just go there and count them. And I remember when I did this talk the first time, which was in 2005, we had something like 0.5% that was really, really low. And now I counted again and we had an increase of 325%, which is awesome until you make the math and you realize that's 13 people. So we have now by today 13 female developers instead of four. That's not a whole lot really. If you want to have some visualization, this is 13 in 927, which is how many developers we have today. So I am tempted to say there's room for improvement. Again, just to make this fact really reach you, these is 927 people. 13 of them are wearing a rat t-shirt. So if we had a Debian group photo tomorrow and all the women got the rat t-shirt, this is what it would look like. So please realize it is a small number. Okay, now why is that? If the number of female uploaders is rising and rising and rising, how come the number of female DDs isn't rising? And there's actually quite an interesting thing to say. Again, this is an excess over time. This time we're beginning at the very birth of the project in 1994. And then we've got women joining one by one. Here's the first and the second and the third, Samaria and Petra and Helen and so on. Again, the colored area is the foundation of Debian women. And again, you see really a steep increase in numbers, which is really, really uplifting. And then in 2008, something happens right here, it stops. It actually falls for the first time because we have the first ladies going missing in action or resigning from the project and no one comes after them. So we've got one joining here that's actually just Ronda setting her agenda to female in that case because of that showing up in the database. And apart from that, we haven't had anybody apply for Debian developer status in three years. Luckily, this spell has now be broken by Francesca. So yeah, we had this really, really long dry patch that lasted until May this year when Francesca got her DVD status. So now we are back to 13, which was our all-time high, but it's not rising anymore. So there's an obvious question as to why this is. Yeah, this is a complete status to the said. There are some possible explanations. One explanation is that with all the support maybe of Debian women, also of the greater, now more friendly Debian community, women now find it easy to step into the community, learn how to do a package, find a sponsor or a mentor or something and upload packages into the archive. That's a good thing. However, something keeps them from applying for DD status and that's something that personally puzzles me a lot because I was quite happy to apply for my status and I'm loving it. So one explanation for this could be that they still perceive this as a barrier. Somehow they feel maybe it's too hard, maybe the questions in the new maintainer process are too hard or maybe they feel that if they become DDs, they will be exposed in a way that they don't feel comfortable with or maybe they don't want to become so public about the Debian involvement or whatnot. I really don't know. And this is why right now I'm asking you, if there are any ladies in the audience who have a package in the archive, but are not DDs, would it be okay to tell us why you haven't applied for a DD status yet or? Laziness, okay. There we've got one. Anything else, maybe? No, okay. You're scared? Scared, lazy? Scared? Just lazy? Yeah, I can repeat this or we can hand out the mic. Well, I really don't have any explanation for that just because I never thought, I never came to a situation where I'd like to do something that I couldn't do without being a DD. All right. And I've been involved in Debian for many years, but I really never said, okay, I'm going to be a DD and I'm going to apply. Just, well, it's also personal question issues that I didn't have the time to... Oh, you did, it's okay, I just... It's not, I don't see any really big problem and... Okay, so in short, you didn't see a need to become a DD? Yes. Okay, there's another one over to your right. Well, I think today that I need more packages. I only have one. Oh, one package is enough. I was actually waiting for Debian Conf to meet some people so that someone can advocate for me. Okay, so actually we have quite a nice mixture of reasons. We have like some people who say, well, really, I just didn't get around to it. As Sam said, I'm a bit scared. There's another, yeah, very much not. Okay. I just wanted to point out that having, I mean, the interest in caring about packages is not the only way, the only contribution that qualifies to become a Debian developer. So every kind of contribution they are giving to Debian, if you're willing to do that on a, you know, on a sustained basis, if you feel committed to a project, then you have no excuse. There goes my conclusion. Well, thank you, dear leader. All right, now, back to the point. Yeah, so we have people who didn't get around to it. We have people who felt a bit scared about the whole process. We've had people who simply didn't feel the need and some who were really just waiting for the opportunity to get the whole thing moving. So this is basically the second explanation that I found as well. People actually do find it easy or manageable to become DDs, but they don't see why they should. Because, yeah, what are the benefits of being a Debian developer? Why should you go through all the hassle of answering this long list of questions and doing these stupid, stupid, stupid example license checks and everything and everything, and it's so much work, and what's the gain? I mean, if you want a package in the archive, you make it, you find a sponsor, there you are. Now what, I thought about this myself, because really in my everyday life it's not often that I realize or come to think, wow, thank God, I'm a Debian developer. I couldn't have done this particular thing if I wasn't. But if you sit down and think about it, a Debian developer status of any kind is a lot like a citizenship in a country that you live in. Now, if you live in a country and you do not have citizenship, you can find a job, you can buy a house, have a family, et cetera, et cetera. You can live a happy life in this country. But if this country at any point in time decides to go into a direction that you don't like, there's nothing you can do about it. You are not in the position to make any change or to make any effect on that country. You just live there, but there's no way that you can exercise influence on the people who run this country. And it's really exactly the same thing with Debian. I mean, there's this kind of like government-like structure of all the DDs sitting in this huge virtual plenum. And maybe one day, if you have a really bad day, we make a GR or something, we make a horribly stupid decision and there's nothing you can do about it if you didn't apply for a DD status. Now, I don't think we'll do this any time soon, but still, maybe if you think about this and if you compare the DD status to a citizenship, to the right to vote, to propose votes, to become leader one day or something, maybe this might be a reason for you to also invest this work and become a Debian developer. Because otherwise, what we will get is an operating system that, let's say, half of the users are male and half of the users are female, but it's run by a kind of proxy, like the guys who run it, there's the guys who run it, and then there's the people who use it. And we actually have this to a degree. There's an anecdote, yes, that I can't tell. So, a couple of months ago, I was using a program that is really, really exclusive for women. Let's say it's a program that lets you keep track of your lady days, okay? And I discovered a bug, so I went to the BTS to file it and I noticed that all the other bugs are filed by men. And I was somehow surprised about that, and then I thought, let's do research. I know there's another one of these programs. Let's check that one. And also, all the bugs of the other program were filed by men. Now, I don't doubt that the users of these programs are by large women, but if they have a bug to file, apparently they have a man do it. This is not what we want. We don't want a huge number of female users having to communicate with the project via mail, bug filing proxies, and package proxies, and sponsor proxies, and voting proxies. We want them to show up and to work in the project themselves. I can see people checking right now when the BTS going, really? So, yeah, there's a few questions that we should ask among ourselves, and that we should also discuss in the buff that is to follow, and that is how we can solve or how we can improve the current situation that we have. So first of all, we want to find out what keeps women from applying for the DD status. We've had a few examples here, and I think this is really a quite good cross-section of the different reasons that you can have. So maybe we should get some more numbers, identify some main reasons, and then try to mitigate them in some way. Also, obviously, the benefits of being a Debian developer are not yet obvious enough. There are some more benefits. Like you can read the Linux weekly news for free. There's lots and lots of honor and fame connected to it. But maybe that's just not so attractive to everybody. So we should, as a project, sit down and think about the Debian developer status and ask ourselves, is it really important that people do become developers? Do we want them to? In that case, how can we make them? One way is, as Stefano mentioned, that it's really silly to say that you can only be a developer or a voting member of the project. If you maintain packages, there's people who invest a lot and a lot of work, but just not into packages. So we already tackled that. But maybe we should just also, once more, make clear why it's so important to become a DD, and why you can't just say, well, let the Debian people do what they want. And if one day they take a silly decision and go somewhere I don't want, I just switch the distribution and go somewhere else. Because Debian is more than that. And you don't switch Debian, really. Also, I think, within the Debian project, we should sit down and very clearly redefine our main tasks. Like, when Debian was founded, it was a time that I called the Wild West days. Because really, then, what you did as a Debian woman was quite clear. You had a really clearly defined, I'm almost tempted to say, enemy. Because really, it was the time where when you got, when you announced the talk about Debian women, say, on the mailing list, you got mails from stupid, stupid crazy people who told you, I will come to your talk. I will find you. I will let you know what I think of you. You got death threats. You got silly graphics. You got all the shit that you can imagine. You had stuff on the mailing list where you thought, ah, Debian project, you are embarrassing yourself. And it was really, really clear what our task was then. And today, the situation is much more complex. The silly people have moved on. I don't know where they are now, but they are not harassing the Debian women anymore. So yeah, I don't know where they went, but they don't show up on the mailing list quite so often anymore. Also, the mailing lists, our mailing lists have gotten a lot more nice and peaceful, so we don't need to do the mailing list police anymore and tell people not to do this and to remove the porn pictures and so on and so on. So while these tasks have disappeared, we still have other things to do, but these are more complex. They're not as easy. They're not as black and white. It's not us against the sexists anymore. So we should sit down and redefine our purpose and redefine our tasks and discuss what we want to do, what we want to work on. So just to prevent the Debian women project from somehow dwindling into inactivity and basically just being this yet another group of people who hang out a lot and talk and just not do anything in particular. So this is why I'm saying the same thing as the talk before me. Do come to the Buff on Thursday at 10. Yeah, really, I'm really, really asking all of you to come and join us in this discussion because this is a decision that we should make together. It's also why I'm not giving you a slide saying, this is what the Debian women project should do and this is what we want and this is what we don't want because I'm only speaking for myself and I really want this to be a common decision among all the members and contributors and so on of the Debian women project. So while this talk has been looking into the past and at the present, I hope that we'll then be able to look into the future together on Thursday morning and we can begin with this now. We have 15 minutes for questions. I can do this 15 minutes. All right, I'll use the microphone. I saw your graph, it's kind of depressing to see a graph like that with like actual names every time there's a little tick. Well, it's only 13 people. That's not that much work. It just brings it home really but the other thing about it is you say, I mean, maybe I missed that part about apparently there are lots more female DMs. Have you plotted that on the same graph and can you see the relationship between them? I can, we can compare the, I can give you a comparison of the numbers. This is the graph that I used first. So we now have since the birth of the project or since Marga started taking the numbers because all the numbers are Marga's work. So thanks a lot to Marga who's watching us now. There's a page called Debian women statistics on the wiki and all the numbers here are taken from there and she's been the one who's painstakingly researched them. Anyway, the maximum number that we have here is 41. So by now we've got, we had 41 different women who uploaded a package into the Debian archive at some point in time. And you can compare this to the top number of female DDs being 13 ever. Right, but that obviously includes people who uploaded a package a long time ago and then went away. Yes, exactly. Is it's, we don't have that many, we have, we don't have many numbers to work with. Unfortunately also, I'm not entirely sure if it couldn't be possible that women just changed their address at some point and had another uploading address. Also the 41 includes of course the Debian developers. So I guess you can maybe, look if you, if I had to bet I'd say it's probably more or less something like 30 really different women who did upload at some point and decided not to become Debian developers. Why don't sponsors or mentors suggest someone? Don't you want to become a DD? Don't you want to apply? Is there no such thing going on that sponsors or mentors suggest to their minions or whatever you call them to apply? That's actually a good point. Let's ask the people in here who have sponsored packages. Do you encourage your sponsors to become DDs and stop bothering you? Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. Thereby hangs a possible problem as well if a sponsor is maybe somehow less likely to suggest to a female sponsor, I don't know. I don't know whether you would be able to tell. I think mostly women or everybody really tries to approach a sponsor who they know feels friendly towards them. So I guess if there was a DD who had a latent tendency to not invite women into the project, he would not be the one who was contacted by women about package sponsoring. I mean, usually this goes via the mentors mailing list and I would certainly hope they're not hanging out there. One thing about what advantages gives Debian being like a DD, I was thinking that it's sad and it's wrong, but I think a lot of actually male have somehow badly integrated that women might be less good at technical stuff. And I think that's untrue. But still, it's more or less integrated. And I was thinking, when you're a DD, you get a dbm.org male address and that writing with this address gives some kind of certification that you are technically able to do a lot of different stuff. And I think I would like encourage women to actually get such an address because that might help to overcome this kind of stupid integrated ideas of a few male that you have to interact with when you're doing free software. Not entirely sure if I got your question. Sorry. Let's take it as a remark maybe. I think we lost the audience, Mike. It's back. Yeah, there was some problems a while back with abuse of women involved in Debian. There was some really nasty stuff going on. I'm hoping, please, if you can confirm that there haven't been any more incidents like that recently. Well, things did get a lot better to give a number when I sent out the announcement about the Debian women IRC tutorials. I only got one unfriendly email that sent me to a YouTube video of a song called Fuck You. However, the trolls did get more courageous. This one gave a real name and everything. So they are now past the nicknames. But it was only one. So this is a lot better than it was in the past. Christ, there's still too many stupid people out there. Yeah. And they're also doing this on private now. They're not sending it to public made lists anymore. So yeah. So I wonder if you have some comparison with other free software projects? Because for instance, I remember one of the very early work on how many women there are in free software, they were rightly comparing with how many women there are in computer science. Because it's already low there and the software was even lower. So I wonder if you have any idea or maybe you have thought about comparing, I don't know, with GNOME or with other community projects to see how good or how bad Debian is scoring with respect to that. I'm afraid the only hard numbers I have from the Floss Pulse project, but that's also already five years in the past by now. Maybe one thing that can serve as a bit of a comparison was that after the foundation of Debian Women, a whole lot of free software projects founded their respective dash women project. There was KDE women, I think GNOME women, Fedora women and possibly, I don't know, for sure, Ubuntu women, which is very active, that I know. It might be worthy to look at all these projects and see where they went and see what became of them, but I guess it's really hard because often they only like the Debian Women project, only work inside the project and they don't really have that much outside visibility. I've got it. I think Gaudens was waiting for a while. I was, you didn't say anything about the mentoring project. I was wondering if you know what's going on there because the two mentors I had so far, they very quickly disappeared again and they had no contact at all with them. If that's a general experience mentors have or if there are some success stories that just didn't go to me. I don't know of any numbers myself. I can say that the mentoring program is still running. We still have girls or women occasionally inquiring about it. As far as I know, each one has been assigned a mentor. There's no real lack of mentors, I think, at the moment, but people on IRC correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not actually that much involved in the mentoring project currently. I don't know, is anybody here a Debian women mentee or mentor? Well, I'm a mentor and I can only agree with you. I get one time a mentee, exchange two males and then never heard of her again. And I really assure you it was not by the style of my males. Okay, so do we have success stories maybe? Was anyone here a Debian women mentee? Unliked it? Okay, I'll take this as a pointer towards reviewing the mentoring program, maybe. I've got a comment on the previous question about numbers in different projects. In Apechi, we've got like 3,000 committers and the percentage of women is about two. Who's we? Apechi. Ah, okay. Sorry. So can you say that again? So it's like 3,000 commits and? 3,000 committers and 2% of them are women. 2%, that's actually quite good. It's more than, wait, a bit. Yeah, I think it's optimistic 2%. Yeah, okay. I want to ask a question about the mentor program. If I get a mentor, does that mean that he would upload everything I need? I mean, if I make a package, what does the mentor does for us? Well, basically, a mentor is somebody who will show, who you will turn to when you have questions towards packaging or towards the project itself or about the new maintainer process and all that. You can, if you want, your mentor can also be your sponsor. So you can give him or her your packages and then here she will upload them, check them first and then upload them if they are okay. This doesn't have to be, though. It's just as well that you just find a sponsor on the Debian Mentors mailing list or something and really just have your mentor as a, say, a personal friend or something who you can turn to, like, if you get the root remark or if there's something that confuses you or if there's any type of question that you don't feel comfortable asking on a public mailing list. There's basically the idea behind a mentor is that there's somebody who you can ask everything. So if you want your mentor to also be your sponsor to show you how to package stuff and so on and so on, here she can do that, but not necessarily. You can also find your own way into the project and really just have this mentor for questions or to have somebody who you know you can trust and ask private things too. But later on, if I apply for a DD, I can count on him, her to be my advocate or something like that. Can you repeat that? When you are a DD? When I apply for a new maintainer process, I can count on the mentor to advocate for me. I should hope so. Yes, well, of course, if your mentor feels that maybe the amount of knowledge that you collected is not yet enough, he will not advocate you, but I should think that he or she will tell you before. So, I mean, I think something that you also usually discuss with your mentor is whether you should now apply for a DBN developer status, whether you should do some more work or not. But it's not a guarantee, but I'd say, yes, usually, of course, your mentor who knows what you can do and who knows what you've learned will also advocate you. Okay, so regarding the earlier question about people not applying to be DDs, maybe the perspective of a sponsory would help a bit. So, I've been involved in DBN I think for about 10 years now, or I think 11 years ago, I decided the first time, oh, I really need to be a DD. And every time I thought I really need to do that, I had some time constraints or whatever. And by now, I don't really need to do that. I don't really need to be the DD. You said earlier, yeah, if my country goes in the wrong direction, I can participate. But if it comes to that, and I really think I need to save the DBN project single-handedly, then I will apply to be a DD. And what we heard earlier, having a addebian.org email address, I think it's, some people feel better or more official in doing what they're doing in the free software community with that kind of address and with showing their project affiliation. Yeah. But for myself and some other people I know, they can live without it and they can live without the official status being a DD. So I think some of what you're seeing might be related to that. Okay. I think we... Not only regarding women. Can take, I think there was one more question right here and then I'm afraid we'll have to move the rest to Thursday. So the statistics that you have shown, they were mostly quantitative, but have there been any research in qualitative direction? That means what kind of areas are usually inclined to have women sort of a sign up and upload and participate in? Well, the short answer is no. Really the only numbers we do have is what we get from the database and so on. We also for example have no numbers at all on translators. We do very much suspect that the number of women in the translators community is much, much bigger than in the developers community because everybody knows a few women who do translating, but they are organized in lots and lots of groups and mailing lists and there's no easy way to assess them. So we know from experience that there are fields like translations, documentation, artwork and things like that that are by tendons more attractive to women or where you find more women, let's put it that way, maybe they're not really more attractive, they're just easier to get into or I don't know, but we don't have any hard numbers on that. Okay, I'm actually happy to see that. There's quite a lot of room for discussion. I hope I'll see you all again Thursday morning. It's 10, it's really not that early. And I would be very happy if you all came, if we could continue this discussion and maybe do this in a way that has us end up with a few nice results to present in the end. For now, I thank you for your honest answers, for your interested questions for being here and yeah, thank you.