 That might be him call a meeting to order for Monday, May 6th, 2019 First thing we need to do is approve the agenda There are any changes or additions? I Would like to I got this weekly legislative report I printed off a couple papers pertaining to the final stretch of the cannabis Discussions they've been having happening up at the State House tonight Well, maybe we shouldn't do it this week, but maybe we could have a little discussion I'll just hand you guys there and copies of it and you can take it home and digest it And maybe next meeting we'll have a little bit of a discussion as to what it's all about So I guess with that we'll take a motion to approve the agenda. I'll make a motion to approve the agenda I'll second that. Okay, no further discussion All right, all those in favor say aye. Aye Consent agenda items just consist of minutes from April 15th and April 29th meetings Take a motion for that as well I'll make a motion Is there a second? I'll second. Yeah, okay wish to approve it. Say aye. Aye Public is there anybody here from the public thus far that wishes to speak Eraser right along here Approval of signage extending in the municipal road right away. Steve. Okay So the way our zoning regulations are structured Signs that overhang or are come into the Municipal right-of-way for streets and roads Needs to be approved by the legislative body. It's all works issue quite honestly Typically these signs overhang with sidewalk think about so street. There are a number of these signs so this is an application that we've received from Jeff Larkin Bank Hill, LLC It's for a new shop. I emailed out some information to you Steve. Yes, they are here. Oh I'm sorry Jimmy Cole up to the mic, please if you want to speak might be off to you. I have to turn it on Hi Jimmy Cole representing the wine wall and Yeah, so we have a blade sign That is being proposed to go over the question mark obviously is that it goes over the sidewalk Done some research on it around town. There are several businesses that already have the exact same type of situation same size It's pretty straightforward the application is you know the install is very straightforward the applications very straightforward I do have designs right here by wooden wood So So as you can see we've stayed below the The signage that was allowed to us by Jeff Larkin and The actual sign itself is being supported by you know some some pretty heavy-duty stuff as you can see from the drawing The weight on it came in at about a hundred and twenty five two hundred fifty pounds We're not sure exactly, but it depends a little bit more on the metal that we use for the arm We've been debating back and forth we all we honestly wanted to be steel because we think it's more Solid obviously than aluminum. There's several types of aluminum that aren't as steady as security I should say as as the steel would be so we're leaning towards the steel But with the steel obviously you have some more weight than the aluminum regulations read as The sign needs to be at least nine feet above the surface of the sidewalk and that's so we have clearance for the sidewalk Plow so Yes right and Just for the select what this used to generally be the purview of the trustees right correct now that Slurport has taken over the all the street rides their ways and issues right they and all the zoning There's no more village zoning that that is correct Yeah, this is gonna as I understand it's gonna protrude about three feet out from the face of the This portion of building which comes out pretty much to the edge of the sidewalk So it'll it'll it won't go out beyond the curve and we'll go out about three feet And there's a slight you know sort of walkway going into the actual scar it's going into the actual door So it's not really completely when you look at it when you measure the three feet out It's really not completely over the real pedestrian walk away It's more actually over the walk away walk away going into the building itself Can you say what the other instances are in this kind of sign in the village? We've got the the mason's that About the so street orium Bluestone pizza has a sign there are other Structures in the right way prohibition pig I'm not sure if there's yes, they do have one And you felt that you prefer this why why you prefer this kind of sign rather than when it's flush against the building Well for pretty obvious reasons we want to be seen from Main Street So that's like, you know, it's a key Part of being able to you know get the traffic that that goes down Main Street And you don't think that a sign that's up against the building will do that No, definitely not you can't see it from one direction completely so you lose the complete people going south Going north you'd still have Some access, but you really got to turn your head to look down and see that This one you can actually see it from the corner when you're standing on that corner like right in front of the pro pig Looking, you know to the left there. You can really really see it We did some some shots There you go, yeah, yeah Bluestone's got something similar. There's another picture that actually shows from the other view kind of coming in from Main Street That's good looking up from the building. So I think grab your seller has one. Yeah, I did. Yes Similar concept of being able to see it How much of it is in the right way three feet approximately the whole sign correct the face as I see it on the plan the There's a table end of the building that comes out over the doorway and that comes out More or less to the edge of the right away that the sign is going to go another three feet beyond that the sidewalk I think is approximately five feet wide And it's in the airspace above the right away And it's high enough that it does not impede our activities Mark you've got a business here in the village any input no put I like it. Okay Without being said do we need a motion to One two questions you need a motion to approve this I suspect and I will and will this approval Be inclusive for other possible signs coming down the road from other businesses I'll make a motion to approve the wine bowl application for the sign as shown Okay, is there a second? James still thinking Questions you got I mean you give a second. What's your concern chain? No, I guess I guess I just think I mean I can understand mark Probably thinks it's real visual, but to me it seems kind of like it's floating out in space And it looks just a little odd to me sticking out there That's the great part about it is it's a wine bottle So it's really obvious that you can see that we're selling and I just wondered if we end up with Individually approving many of these if we're going to end up with kind of a hodgepodge of Things sticking out from buildings that I don't think our role is to necessarily Well, why not? Well, because that's not what the regulation isn't necessarily surrounding if we like something or not It's literally what is allowed on what isn't there is a square footage requirement if a business decides They want to do a wine bottle instead of a flat sign That's you know, that's up to their choice as long as they're fitting within the square footage requirement So for me I don't think we should necessarily be judging their choice of Design as much as doesn't fit within the regulations and then the only requirement is since it is over the right-of-way Whether or not we approve that I understand why you'd want a two-sided sign the regulation for the square footage Actually allows you for more square footage and you do it this way because it only accounts for it in a 2d perspective So I think there's an advantage to doing this type of sign plus I think visually I agree that it'll stand out more than a flat sign against so I understand why a business would want to do it I have a Sign that it's perpendicular to try to get more visual Recognition from traffic as it passes. So I understand why why the choice to do it But I think that we shouldn't necessarily try to judge too much on design Aesthetics Chris I'm sorry. You do need is you should have a second even if you know, I know I tried to say Maybe I just wasn't quite ready to vote on it I have a second to discuss it right so if you second it then we'll have a discussion I was waiting for you to say okay now We can continue with our discussion even There's many businesses along Main Street that Have ground-mounted signs that are two-sided, you know, they're not flush. They're trying to be seen by traffic 46 South Main has a host of Good I guess I need to take a closer look Yeah, we have we have a lot of these that are very common You know as Mark said we don't try to dictate design Clearly the creativity is a good way to track so yeah, but we don't Well, I wasn't I wasn't being critical of the wine bottle. It was just Kind of the the spacing of it. Yeah, it's very common Three feet I would say is the norm You know whether it's the rest of the water After sellers, you know just to get enough graphic and enough presence You know coming out three feet from a building is very typical And they don't because of the entrance. It's hard to this is the logical place problem Okay, so let's be thankful they're not asking to approve a wooden finger So most of your field yeah, well, I think from what I heard Kenny Chesney bought it No, oh kid rock. That's what I'm sorry Rock up of it. I built a second one Duplicate Deliver that takes all time So motion has been made and seconded to approve the wine vault sign That Elm Street All those who wish to approve the sign, please say aye I want to thank you for all the yeah, thank you exhibits here. It's helping When do you have pleasure when you open up and in a few weeks actually what we're gonna do a soft opening Just before Memorial Day and then be folk last hopefully by Memorial Day, right? Unfortunately, since we had to wait for this which is no fault of you guys You're doing your jobs, but we have to postpone the actual sign going up because It won't make any time for the opening sparkies just wouldn't would it's just a little behind where they need a certain amount of time to get it produced Welcome water brain. Thank you Actually, we're here before a while ago. Oh, yeah, we just don't value at all. Oh, okay, cool His son used to His son was our shop new venture, huh? Yeah. Yeah all the luck in the world. Good luck. Thank you Appreciate it. All right, E91 private road name approval for molten farm road That you can see yes it is So I think you're familiar with the mold farm across from the post office seven acres was retained by the molten-tran daughter Andrea the rest of the property was sold to Aaron Flint and it's the so-called winter woods Knowles development and There's an existing road that will serve a loss eight houses Ultimately, so we need to name it. It's It's more than two houses on that shared private road, so They're proposing that it be molten farm road and it seems appropriate or the historical significance of the property They are going to keep the meadow area all open the houses are going to be tucked In the wooded areas around the periphery, so I think it's going to retain a lot of the character of the original farm In any rate, that's what's proposed is Yeah, that project isn't taken off real Real quick. Do you know of any they there's a house that's being permanent on a lot too, which is up kind of Kitty corner to the sugar house on the first bend and They did develop one house all the way down below the highway garage Right, that's part of the development. There's one more that's off But I think things are starting to move now. Okay Any comments guys I'll make a motion for the name approval for molten farm road A second the motion All right, no further discussion All those in favor say that says underwoods or whatever. Oh the Knowles As far as I know that may still be the name of the Subdivisioner development is the Knowles But uh, they want they don't want they didn't want to use that for the name of the road Is that the same situation with watery commons? Is that watery commons road or what? No, it right watery commons is carry lane and tyler Tyler lane carry lane, so it's similar I know it's the developments, but they have a different right Okay, all those in favor say aye You're all set. Thank you very much appreciate it select board items capital planning Because of these things, yes This is your request it's under the select board items so You mentioned it at the last meeting of the meeting before that you wanted to start having some Discussion, I'm not sure if you want to give me direction. I apologize frank if you're here because I think this is more capital planning for Highways and Maybe vehicles, but frank is the chairperson of the recreation committee. So Sure, this is nobody wreck the wreck committee obviously has ideas and thoughts communicate through nick And with bill about fields and other facilities that we have So we talked a little bit at during budget time We talked about the fire trucks and You know, we've got a couple of pump trucks that we're going to have to buy in the next year or two So it's just on here. So You can start let me know what you're wanting to look for right? What what's the board's concern is like this To give us direction. I asked bill to come just in case you had something specific It's easier for him to interact and hear it directly as opposed to just hear it through me So I asked him to come tonight So before we get into the weeds on that, um, I spoke with a guy today Jim Bradley from Morseville who was Just talking in general to me and he mentioned that the Town of Eden, I believe was interested in purchasing a 350,000 dollar pumper truck Now, I don't know if They would have any interest in One of ours for next year As opposed to spending that kind of money Elmore Elmore, okay There we go. See If they're talking about buying a 350,000 dollar pump, it sounds like they're planning to buy something new Well, I don't know. Yeah, I didn't know if it'd be worth the phone call just to More or not. Well, it's certainly, you know, we're not in a position right now to tell them when it would be ready Understood. Yeah Early bird catches the worm. Yeah Thanks, Josh Frank, would you like to come up and talk a little bit about maybe some of your concerns would take that Food for thought and Just so we can get it into our heads a little bit Yeah, so I this Frank's calling him on the recreation committee and I just got a pointed bomb told to be chair So real quick, I don't really have anything to declare here Because one the committee I kind of just came on my own But I will say the committee has been looking at capital planning as one of our exercises In terms of trying to think of what would be a good priority for the as far as recreation program is concerned It's an ongoing process. There's nothing to deliver to you at this point in time I came tonight only to Get in on the ground floor just listen and find out what your priorities are And so what I'll do on behalf of the committee and really all I can do on behalf of community right now is extend our offer of assistance If there's something in our creation world you want to have us look at and and think about That we would be be glad to offer that service to the select board. We are embarking on a A concept a visioning concept really nail down what the committee is going to be about now that we have a full-time recreation director Great We're really Looking forward in that respect. So capital planning. We envision the part of that So we I come here tonight simply to listen and offer our services. So use us. We're here for you That's all I'm gonna say Thanks I'll jump in. I think one of the requests that I had put in was Kind of listing any equipment that maybe is over a certain price here. Let's say a hundred thousand dollars estimate and then Getting a land bill. I think you said you had this but basically Start to understand the amortization schedules of each of those vehicles and start to see where we might be running into Same year hitting big spend so we can start to plan for that So I think the request was getting just a little bit more at least maybe visibility on our side of The list of major equipment and It's estimated 2019 replacement costs and then where we are in the life cycle of those items So we can start because of similar to the conversation where all of a sudden we were really considering buying new fire trucks last year Just trying to get ahead of it a little bit as we're also trying to figure out You know road investment and stuff like that You know in terms of recreation Conversations around anything associated with those facilities. I don't know if the pool Anything that anything involved with recreation really hits that price Tier that maybe we should really be talking about which I would think would maybe be six figures like the hundred thousand plus type investments that Seem to force us to maybe consider having to do things with the budget Well, I don't know what if you can chime in on this at all as far as Where we're at with our paved roads Other infrastructure issues that you're foresee coming down the pike here in the immediate future that are going to be heavy hits in the arms that Are going to play into You know our budget Issues here moving forward I guess my biggest concern is that With all the other issues of Chuck replacements and the budgets in general just trying to get a handle on where we're going to get the money And what kind of monies we're looking at To try to fix some of these infrastructure problems without mortgaging amount beyond the life expectancy of the project itself That's possible I mean, yeah, and I'm the same thing. I was wondering, you know, just to refresh our memories about our priorities for 2019 vis-a-vis roads culverts and bridges sidewalks 2020 And is there like a five-year plan? The answer is there's no five that impossible to have a five-year plan There's possible possibility of having whatever Direction you want to go as far as length of a plan The upcoming season 2019 schedule has your big ticket item is lumis hill Replacing a couple culverts large diameter on there as well as reclaiming the whole road from the bridge at the bottom all the way to the top That's eating up the majority of your paving money this year Um, there's no shortage of projects that are lined up 2020 and so on maple street is another big one that we have Um, no price tag on that one yet, but you know the upper part of blush hill as well Um, so there's some there's there's definitely some Money that can be spent out there on paving in the future We do have east street and perhaps jenny davis wrote on the schedule for this year's paving Nothing is casting stone as to when things get paved nothing Said that it would pave but every 13 years or whatever schedule you want to use um In the past, I know I believe bill has had Alec tuscany the previous public works director in town engineer come up with a plan on paving schedules And you know something like that could be done again. We did look at that a few years ago Got a proposal from stan tech as to maybe evaluating all the roads seeing what the best treatment might be for all of them um, coming up with a time schedule as you can imagine Most of our roads are due for some sort of treatment You know As we speak, you know Well the the challenge and Uh, nobody's on the board anymore back to when Alec was first Hired as the public works director But a paving plan was one of the first charges that the select board gave to me and to alec And he put one together and I can't remember now if it was every eight years or 10 years or whatever it was um But it had a price tag that you needed to spend $350,000 a year and the select board at the time never came close to spending that So, um, I think the I'm pretty sure it was 350 was the target Dollar amount and the most the select board ever put aside in a given year was $200,000 for a number of years So you automatically kind of Got behind and we're Here now where we where we are now And I know there's no way that you can Um Compel a future board to do anything and that's one of the beauties of vermont is that This select board can't buy the next select board this town meeting can't buy the next town meeting except for debt That's the only way you can find A payment is if you go out and you borrow money to do something and you do it And if you've got a million dollar debt out there, you got to pay it Um, and I'm not suggesting that we should just go out there and borrow but that's really the only way One annual meeting can buy the next is to is to borrow money. So the challenge is Not only developing the plan, but agreeing that the plan needs to be Funded and and that's where we've stumbled in the past We've had some obviously bad luck. Irene definitely got in the way, but it had been Several years before Irene came along that the select board was only putting Two-thirds of the money into the budget that that they were Required to do So remind me how much are we spending this year? Do you remember? Yeah, it's over a half million. Yeah The last two years. I think you've done a while later Yes, we have we we've really The last To you, this will be the third year of kind of really pushing things with pushing the limit I'm not pushing the limit. No, I mean definitely pushing the limit on what we're squeezing into the paving paving And we've also tried to be in the mix with getting some grants for better better roads grants for the culverts They jumped the amount that's available for those Yeah, we've received a few of those for culvert projects in stream armoring and etc. Yeah We did try for I think a Few sidewalk ones that didn't come through but yeah, I think the other thing that we have to do on paving and and this is a trap that Maybe I fell into along with the previous select boards, but you know, you've got the class two paving grant out there And there's only so much money to go around and as we all know, um, you know going back to 2012 Especially if you throw the village in the mix waterways received a lot of money from the state and the the district administrators when they have the ability to issue grants and I think they do the class two grants Don't they the district? I believe so You know, they'll tell you that They encourage you to apply and they tell you that they'll look at it with wide open eyes and I believe they do but they also tell you You know, there's whatever 19 other towns in the district and waterways received a lot of money The point that I'm getting to is In the past we did this with stow street with the we had the sidewalk project that took forever because of Um historic preservation work that had to be done and all of the F4s or f11s, whatever they are And we had we had intended to do the curb the sidewalk and the paving of stow street all at the same time and We just couldn't fit it in with that sidewalk project. But what we've done probably to our detriment is Okay Blush hill the bottom part of it is a is a class two highway It really needs to be paved. We're going to do a class two paving grant And we don't get it And then we don't do the project and I think the way the cycle of the paving grants come around Is that if you get a class two grant in a given year Find a class two road and and do it always be prepared to submit an application but also If it's the year that that road needs to be paved you just say We'll do the class two grant the next time it comes around on a different road and we need to pave the road That's right before us that needs to be paved because we tried on blusher for a grant We wait we finally did blusher So what happened to the grant for stow street? I thought I thought that was just it was there for us just kicked down the road until A date that was more appropriate for us to because of the bridge project I thought that was still in our clutches. We did. I don't know what the answer is to that one I have a similar understanding, but yeah, I don't know the answer to that So one of my questions Between what was done on lumens Hill last year and what's going to be done this year Do you have a sense of the distance of that? entire stretch and with the two The cost price tags both the cost and The mileage is it a mile and a half? Is it a mile? 1.9 or 2.1 miles as I remember it We're doing slightly different treatments in that we did from maple street intersection to the heimey meyers bridge We did a overlay on that we did an inch and a half shim coat and I believe in an inch and a half top course From the bridge up will be a full reclaim of the road meaning they'll come in with the reclaimer Take all the asphalt incorporated into the road base Cloride and then pave back on I believe four inches Into lifts so slightly different treatments and I'm not sure of the price tag differences Without looking out. Yeah the differences, but do you off the top of your head? Do you know what what last year's appropriation for that section to heimey meyers bridge was just to give us Kind of an idea of what that two miles is going to cost us all said and done I don't but I can have that I could get that answer for you. Yeah, um, I didn't know if it was 800,000 if it was Less than 600,000 the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah Um, it was less than 200,000 to the last years. Yeah, it was 40 Sounds about right and then we're talking about 650 or seven for the upper part I don't think quite that much, but yeah six maybe might be in the 700 I I would say seven to eight I can pull those numbers for you and find out. Yeah, do we know the last the last time that the section That's going to be down this summer was done Yes, um, I lived there. Yeah, there was a gentleman in my office the other day who told me the exact year it was done I don't have that answer, but he remember remembered. He was a senior in high school in 1996. Maybe Yeah, it was That sounds about right. Yeah I was still living on limits hill at the time when it done when it was done And I think it was and we moved up the hill to ripley road in 97. It's probably 94 95 That's a while ago Yes, and we're finding that with most of our roads like wissel mountain. We did last year hadn't been touched in 23 years Or whatever, you know east street the same this year hasn't been touched in 20 years Um, unfortunately it shows. Uh, yeah, I mean in a perfect world. We'd have But the roads like east street and wissel mountain Not that They weren't in great shape, but If we could have paid Maybe wissel mountain Two years or three years before it would have been helpful. We don't need to do those roads I don't think every seven or eight years now Those roads have had a base rebuilt in wabia I think we're hitting east street just at the right time this year We just milled off an inch and a half and we'll put an inch and a half top on and that'll be fine for a good Good portion of time wissel mountain was a little past due Um, a lot of that's the soils up there, but that roadway had been rebuilt Yeah So the unfortunate part is because of our financial restraints we are um Kind of handcuffed to just resurfacing these roads on a ongoing basis rather than trying to Do anything that might lengthen the life expectancy on the With the subsurface I'll say I'm finally getting that through my head, but it's more of The frustration with trying to Accomplish Some kind of a fix to uh, maybe help these roads last Longer Well, I think and I don't know how bill feels about it. I've had some discussions with alec but um You know, I think some of the shorter streets In the village if we could would really benefit from The foam application I think trying to do that on the through roads like loomis hill or peri hill or blush hill I think it's just just too cost prohibitive to do that but The section of high street that we put the foam under has really Done well And then the section from stow street To that section that we just paved You know that that Or depression is starting to show up again So I think, you know streets like that. Maybe um, I never can remember. What's the Court across the swazy court. I keep wanting to call it adams court because charlie adams is over here Swayze court, you know, some of the shorter streets We just did butler and Wallace but those kind of streets, maybe we could incorporate that kind of thing in but they uh The bigger, you know Two-mile roads. There's just no way we can do that. I get it. You know, like I said in a perfect world It'd be nice to have that ability to do that. But that's kind of why you know, there was this Spurt of uh effort to do repave a lot of these shorter roads. So Kind of in a sense I'll be long gone before we uh, yeah ever get around to doing those again, probably Actually to bill's point, it's actually you say we won't ever be able to do it But if you do start with your small roads and you start to You start to use Products like foam and hopefully start to get more life out of those roads if you don't change your if you do fully Fund like we should be doing and we're now over funding the 350 but I know costs have gone up but to that point if If you start to get the Swayze courts of the world and the high streets of the world on a much longer time frame of Repaving potentially you can start to then Consider bigger projects, you know, so it would take time to get there You might have to do the bigger projects in segments. Right, right. Um, but I would argue that potentially you do get there Eventually by starting to just chip away at the smaller ones And learn from that at the same time and not take risk on a big road and then find out There's something inherently wrong with whatever we've come up with so I don't I think that's actually a pretty good strategy It's kind of a hybrid Well, I think I read along I mean maybe nobody was listening But that was kind of my strategy to take care of the small roads first and then Those roads lasting longer those revenue that would otherwise go to those roads could help go towards some of the bigger sections even if we only did Ideally some of the bigger sections in short You know short pieces as we could afford it again, that's we're looking out many years In order to do something like that, but I guess tonight what I my bigger concern is Is moving forward the next five years What are we thinking we want to do for Paving projects On the average, what are we looking at for mileage on a per year basis and You know if we're looking at three quarters of a million dollars to do two miles, that's 300 and whatever 75 to 375 a year To do a mile although it seems like the last Perry Hill and Gupto Gupto Perry Hill and Neal and Flats were both half a million dollar projects and those were just a little over a mile if I remember right So somewhere in the three 75 to 500 thousand dollars a year To get a mile plus or minus done depending on the application. Yeah. Yeah And To your point there about financing these things out you can only borrow on infrastructure for Five years. Is that correct? No unless you so Before I lose my train of thought Um Just in this conversation here Jane asked about is this a five-year plan you just said about five years I think it'll be helpful to us If you want us to look out five years, that's that's a lot easier than kind of looking out for forever basically and um I know one of the strategies that the engineering firms have Pitched and the paving companies even I've been standing up on High street with John Reynolds when we were doing the foam portion there a couple of years ago Um, you know, he said if you can just come in sometimes on a road after Seven or eight years and just overlay it You know, you'll you'll extend the life of that road for probably 10 years and and you you don't have to really do anything except the overlay so we could kind of take that approach where If we're going to spend a half a million dollars Pick our big road if we have to but It might be worthwhile to put a hundred thousand dollars or so to overlay a road that's That's got people saying hey that road over there is a lot worse than this one What are you paving that for now and really if you put that inch overlay on that road And you can save it for another 10 or 15 years And then you know wait a couple years to do a bigger application on this one Basically instead of spending half a million dollars every 20 years you're spending a hundred thousand dollars every 10 years Kind of thing. Yeah on on those roads. So I think and if we're looking at a five-year plan I think that's easier for us to kind of Sink our teeth into a little bit. I think to Bill's point We lost a lot of those roads that were we could do the Overland the the lumas the maples the upper parts of burns. So now you're paying the big money There's probably still a few scattered around There's probably like the street I live on Yeah, yeah, that would be Howard abt Got some cracking and stuff. Well, I like that approach I've seen analysis from v-trans about how infrastructure for roads goes and It starts to decline and then all of a sudden you get to a point where it goes It knows dives and it's so much more expensive to bring that road back Bring that bridge back whatever So I think it's being proactive about that. Yeah, sounds like you've got experience That was part of the reason we tackled east street this year. We did that overlay on the hollow road Last last year in the hope that we could save that road from A major Even butler and wallace were kind of in that category. Yeah Do you do like annually a road inventory and kind of a reassessment of condition and then kind of way Where that road is and it's life cycle do we do that? We haven't done that for a while. I think You were developing a chart there. What do you uh kind of We've got an excel spreadsheet that you know lays out when the last treatment was How much that costs, you know, etc But some of the pavement management stuff that happens now more goes to what you're saying mark as far as This is the existing condition, you know, this is what it might be five years from now This is what it might be 10 years from now Well, I think if you could come up with a five-year plan It also could help with the what you're talking about transition for select board members coming and going But you kind of have a plan where you know where you're going and I know this this board has a commitment to Back you up and try to fund as much paving as we can In the last few years, I think you've made big steps You know the amount I think the decision to pave hollow road was kind of a we've got a little extra money Let's do that inch and a half and you know and to your point we've We're running not out of short streets that are inexpensive paving jobs, but we're pretty close to it You know, there's not a lot of short, you know You've got major streets in the village union left to do sometime along here, but you know Yeah, what's left is big stuff and it's in pretty bad shape. Yeah, so how about we're getting a home of main street here shortly? So Yeah, no, I you know, I'm not complaining. I'm just making a plan that that's where we're at. Um, so To use a figure of half a million dollars ish Well, that's helpful too if you give us the number and say that And I know you can't commit but but in general if you're saying We'll figure out a way to spend a half a million dollars I think we can come up with a plan Right to do that. It would be ideal if we could use that as a target. Um But obviously the things that come to mind are, you know It's still fresh in my head is the whole ambulance thing and them looking for another make possible facility um Well, there's never going to be a shortage of things that are out there that we might have to do something So, how does it, you know, how does that how does the main street costs all play into our ability to come up with a half a million every year? I guess that's how do we pull that rabbit out of the hat? Well, I think the the opportunity with looking in a five-year window is that If we know and and going through the whole list of other capital planning Is that you can start to be Strategic on trying to stay level funding for the budget But necessary, you know Take a hundred from paving and put it over here knowing that we might have to on a larger paving project We borrow because that's going to go over the 500 anyways There's if we have a plan we can start to look at what other Big budget items might hit on the same year and we plan the the paving around other timing of other capital Projects, so I think that's where is if we have that plan then we don't find ourselves You know on our heels all of a sudden realizing that Everything's coming to a head and we need to do all of this in one year And then we have to go to the taxpayers or or borrow and maybe we didn't need to if we had a better plan So I think that's the opportunity there is yeah, and and you know, we're Kind of congratulating ourselves and that the last few years we've done quite a bit more, but We've also basically used up all the capital funds, you know, they're Brought forward $65,000 or something like that into this year and You know, we know we're going to have to do some borrowing. So to your question about borrowing chris We can borrow up to five years by note And that just a voice vote at town meeting, you know, shall the voters authorized the town to Borrow a half a million dollars to pave xyz street You you can borrow up to five years by note Anything beyond five years you can You have to go to a bond boat But there's that little wrinkle which we did on on Perry hill was we went to the voters and we got the authority to Borrow the money for five years and then the next year The select board voted to refund the note through the bond bank. It doesn't require a bond vote the select board just passes a resolution that says you know what the The finances of the town dictate that this capital expense be Spread out over a longer period of time And you know, I don't take that lightly. I'm not saying that anytime that we have A need out there We should just go to the voters and get a note passed and then kind of roll it into a bond Just kind of as a pro-former thing That was a good reason to do that. We didn't have any other bonding coming down the line and You know, we we had Seen the light where some of our bonded embeddedness was going to be dropping off. So we did that I think coming up if not 2020 town meeting Maybe later in the year in 2020 certainly by 2021 We're going to have these fire trucks. We're going to have some pretty big paving projects You know, I harken back to when the town set up the first capital improvement fund and We came up with a list of projects and we just borrowed $650,000 at the time from the bond bank for a 10-year bond And we didn't spend all that money in the first year. We just we banked it We probably spent 200 in that first year and then You know use that going down the road and it was how we seeded the cip We used to have one capital improvement plan fund 30 one capital improvement fund And then when rebecca ellis was on the board, she didn't like the fact that was all in one fund because she felt like Anytime there was the money built up. We kind of used it for Things that weren't on the on the list so to speak. So we divided the capital plan up into Five capital funds, but I was just meeting with the auditor the other day the new auditor and When you see the audit when it's finalized the 2017 audit and it will be the same in the 2018 audit He's consolidated that all into one capital fund. He said it's all it's one fun It's it's set aside for capital expenses You can't differentiate before it for these things He said if it helps you in your planning project process to keep it five funds, that's okay But we have to consolidate it. It's really one capital fund And that's how we've been using it. You know, I've talked to you at budget time saying well the fire department fund has $250,000 in it the paving fund has $65,000 in it and the Vehicle replacement fund in the highway department is minus $150,000, but we're all above water We can do what we have to do. So we're we're managing it really is one fund It might be nicer to put it back in one fund and and be able to see all the projects in one Fund and and do it that way. I think probably rebecca's goal is to try to Create some form of a discipline type strategy Well, the thing that that board did operating each the thing that that board did and rebecca was Kind of a driving force behind it I think it was really a good idea to put The capital funding into the general We used to we used to pass a budget, you know Million dollars for the general fund a million dollars for the highway fund Raise a certain amount of taxes for each of those funds and then we raised Attacks separately, you know, we're going to raise attacks of $400,000 to deposit into the Into the cip and what you didn't see then was how much does it really cost to run your fire department? So putting the transfer into the fire department and into the highway department and into the wreck department Makes sense. It's all going into that capital fund, but you're seeing Oh, yeah, it It gives you a better understanding of how much is needed It allows you to monitor them easier. Um, so I've been sitting here struggling with this concept. Is there any validity to I may have said this before If we're looking at a five-year plan, you know, what what what kind of roads Are included in the in the next five years And if we're half a million dollars a whack That's two and a half million dollars in the next five years Considering interest rates considering other issues considering the degradation ongoing so we got some one road that's in the fifth year And unless you convince me otherwise most of our roads are about in the same deterioration Realm So five years from now one road is going to be really in rough shape Is there does it make sense to think about Even if we have the ability to borrow two and a half million dollars Bonded out for A reasonable amount of years. I don't want to get beyond the life expectancy of the asphalt Considering that interest rates may go up, you know the other issues that we have coming down the pike Is it a is it a good gamble to think about doing something like that? That way we know these roads are going to be fixed. Nothing else is going to get in the way of Repairing those and somehow we'll just have to deal with These other issues that are coming so you're talking about Issuing your bond and doing two and a half million dollars in one year. Yeah, all right, so The issuing the bond is the easy part What's going to happen to interest rates who knows the bigger question and i'm not looking for an answer tonight Is what's the capacity? How much can we do in a in a year? You know, it's contracted out. We're not doing the paving ourselves, but typically we Don't want to do ditches if there are culverts there. We're going to want to replace those We might have to go outside and hire contractors To do some of the prep work because i'm not sure We can do a while of the work that needs to be done if we're going to Do two million dollars worth of paving in one year Was it with absolutely with every paving project comes some sort of ancillary changing of valve boxes raising of sewer basins ditching sweeping Culver work there's always seems like with every project something that falls under the highway or water sewer guys So the other i can see you just kind of made the bold come on there Is there an advantage to to having that much? That volume of paving possibly look at that volume of paving getting done in it What kind of benefit do we get from the paving contractor as well? That might help us out. It's just a thought, you know, I mean right now i'm grasping at straws because of our Ability to fund these things adequately. We got to come up with something that's Yeah, I certainly there's an economy of scale if if we're doing a lot, um Any idea what per ton we're paying now? I think lumis hill was coming in at 69 dollars a ton, which was because it's such a such a big project um The way it's structured now. We don't get that 69 dollars a ton for east street, you know, um, but Is either 69 or 79 I can't remember but lumis hill was kept came in pretty cheap But that's because it's a half a million dollar project or what have you right? And then, you know, if we if we do borrow Then you've got to consider that of that half a million dollars A certain percentage of that half a million dollars has to be eaten up by the debt service Unless you're going to pay the debt Plus two a half a million dollars worth of work if you you know two and a half million dollar um If it's 10 years, you know, it's two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year just to Pay the the principal and then you got to pay the interest on top of that So any idea off the top of your head? Well, we're talking a per penny basis to see so it's a 75,000 for every penny That will that would raise. Yeah about that. Yeah, that's that's close enough five into 250 is what Um, I guess my concern with that strategy would be if you're doing similar type of roads in all large projects, you're going to time out In the future potentially you're going to see these huge. I mean sure I understand the economy of scale question mark but I'd hate to see us set the town up for I think getting a handle on these and staggering by a number of years the larger road repair projects, I think and then figuring out a The ability to do these overlays and the maintains to try to Strength length of time. I don't know. I feel like I would be worried about trying to Set ourselves up or You know depreciation and and but okay. I understand to that point Wouldn't that actually put us in a better position? for doing our simple overlays if We're not burdened by these But as I understand mark, you're worried everything comes to again and you had the same time Yeah, yeah, I mean if if I was presented in a five-year plan that if we accelerated investment and overlays to lengthen road I thought whatever the term would be. Um, you know length that that road can Function life expectancy if if I mean, of course, I love that idea. I love it if if an over us a series of overlays now And this is the time where they would need to be done to to create the life expectancy that instead of having to do a full Rebuild I yeah, I I'm not against that but I would have to see that presented to us in that five-year. I think scenario But I don't think I can really speak to tonight That Taking two and a half million on bond. You're still gonna have to pay for it depending on amortization schedules You know, and we're gonna have to probably bond for other things I just would I don't want to scare the taxpayer with that either So I think we'd have to have a pretty solid plan if we were to consider something like that I understand that but I think I think what we've already talked about is the fact that we'll be on our overlay Or are we on on some of the big ones maple lumis? Upper blush ill. Yeah, but to james point Howard. There's a couple in there that we can get but Yeah Right, there's still some village streets that could be gotten. Yeah, you know the bad shoulder streets of the world Stuff like that. Yeah Parts of roots, so yeah to your point duller for if you're talking about knees or shorter sections are old, right? So Back to the phone thing Well, how do you How do we incorporate it and you know, we may just have to pick them off, you know, we can do one phone thing a year, you know just but This is helpful to me just to Keep the horizon at five years and to To understand that we have From your perspective right now all things being equal about half a million dollars a year that we can Play with and you know, we understand there's sidewalks. There's culverts. There's recreation stuff And you know, we may have to Shave back on that a little bit, you know, that will be the decision that the select board will ultimately have to make But it gives us a good place to start anyway that we can Target that well if the half a million dollars a year kind of projection is there we can work on that basis and if we get a grant for 75,000 and We're at four and a quarter instead of 500,000, right? I mean it'd be nice to be able to keep the 500 there and just Go 575 as opposed to yeah, that would be the ideal is to do more when we get the grants as opposed to You know, but we'll We're not going to get a grant this year. So we would discuss that if if any of those had come through it We'd like okay. We'll just add another yeah So how do we other than just discussing this tonight? How do we kind of move forward with some kind of investigation as to Maybe more appropriate Direction well, I think I think bill and and alec and myself The three of us will sit down talk about the strategy to do this I know two years ago, you know mark wondered if If it was worthwhile to you know pay a consultant to you know really come up with a plan I'd rather start with our in-house folks and You know, we'll have to Kind of take the lead from bill in terms of how much time we have Obviously, he's pretty busy with main street this year and I'm sure you've got alec down there from time to time Yeah, yep, absolutely. We'll The three of us will sit down and talk and come up with a Plan and we'll start moving towards it if we have to come back and tell you We should do it a different way we will but I think for tonight you don't need to do anything more than that Yeah, I'd almost start with just a strategy of What's the scenario of road? What are the options based on time and build those rules and then dump in all the data for the roads and then I'll kind of tell you maybe How the strategy didn't spend a lot of more time on You know the idea of overlay versus rebuild rebuild length of road phone Like you know so you could build all those rules and spend a lot of time on that and then I think once you Hold everything in maybe the plan would almost make itself with just the rules that you've created at a time Kind of layout the formula on its own, no And then any grant opportunities would be now next winter applying for grants For 2020. Yep now does main street Way in on the ability to get any of this other funding or is that just a whole separate thing In other words, would the state look at you and say you just got main street done? Well, I think the main street is mostly federal, correct bill. Uh, so I would think that it's not going to be I think means we're gonna be at less less of a drag on future grants than even still some of the things that happened After I read frankly, um, and and some of the state investment that's been made in waterway, you know, they built the state complex They built the roundabout They did the bridges You know, so anyway Yeah No need to really speculate on that right just do what we can So out of the capital planning and right into winter highway maintenance, I think they kind of go hand in hand to some degree um I got this issue of salt use that just constantly eating at me. Um I think that's a big contributor to the reason our paved roads are being beaten so bad during the winter and uh I guess I'll come right out of the gate saying I'd like to be able to uh Put some some form of a policy together. Um Sooner than later so that it can be in place for next winter that perhaps Uh, basically mandates that certain roads don't get salt use flatter sections of road And start to adjust and I think actually we had discussed at town meeting if you remember the input Some of the conversation we had about having a public meeting and talk about possibly doing something different with uh, how we're Uh, maintaining our roads during the winter via cutting back on road salt maybe reducing the heavy amounts of sand we're using at times and doing more spot sanding and on corners and intersections and Quite honestly leaving some of the straight sections That's why I had inquired earlier on about speed limits I mean, that's a state controlled issue So basically we're kind of shackled to state rules if we want to try to Be more environmentally con conscientious about the impacts of salt and sand to our waterways The only way to reduce that perhaps is by slowing down the speed limit on certain spots Uh, but you can't do that because apparently the state prohibits it um Right, I mean speed limits are supposed to be set for clear and dry conditions and you know, you you're Leave it to the driver to To drive for the conditions of the road So do we have any rules on winter maintenance from the state in terms of what their expectations are for? Not that I'm aware of No, um, I will say I think it's it's the public's expectation now that um You know this past winter I got called at whatever time a bus could not make it up to the best western You know, it's stuck on the hill and granted it was a terrible snowstorm But the public and the best western's expectation was you know, that those 50 patrons could make it To the motel You know and they unloaded them right in the middle of the hill and they all grabbed their suitcases up from out of the bus and dragged it up the hill And I would say probably 20 years ago. That wouldn't have been the expectation that you could arrive somewhere in the Night and be able to make a bad section of hill But I think we all know that I'm not asking for hills with 15 plus grades to not be uh Uh, take care of properly what I'm saying is Roads like kneeling flats most of kneeling flats I mean that's not a problem The flats because it's flat and uh got the road a lot of got the road Gets pounded to death with salt and quite honestly from the highway garage down to greniers vegetable stand that hill could be either sanded or Reluctantly, I'll say you could put some salt on it from but from there on There's no reason that sand Couldn't be applied to that road and Some areas less than less than others and You know like on the corners by shanty. You have a little bit more on there Again, it goes back to people's expectations and when you give people a wide open door To drive like hell They're going to drive like hell But they'll adapt if you get it through their heads. That's why I think a public meeting would be Uh appropriate to have to hear from them Because I did hear see some people at town meeting shaking their head. Yes when they agreed to with me about You know doing something about excessive salt and sand use Well, I mean, I think there is the environmental the cost there's there's a quite a few things that could be addressed I know states like colorado have gone away. I think from salt on a lot of roads and let the snow pack But I I would just want to understand the safety implications of any Change to strategy there and and as we make these decisions understand the risk reward We might be taking but I I'm I'm interested in having that conversation the challenge I think and if you talk to people like cio or even Bubby wilder the former highway foreman Is that um With a warming climate, um, there's exceptions, but The snow doesn't it doesn't stay cold enough for the snow to really pack and Becomes this mealy slush Um, I know when I first came to vermont and was up in the northeast kingdom, you know, they never used salt and it plowed the snow and That you know the shoes on the plow would leave an inch and then After a couple weeks it would be six inches and then you'd get the january thaw and then be you know that Ruts that big and then to go out with salt then and then take the grater out and scrape it off And probably back in the day. They did that kind of stuff here too. Yeah, but It's it's definitely a challenge You know the cost element the salt is You know, we don't have the ability to store salt so We we pay Probably the biggest retail price that you're going to get because we can't buy salt in the summertime and just let it sit in the shed Um, what's the cost of one of those sheds? Have we ever looked into that? So we don't really have the room for it Salt cost went from 69 at times just towards the end of the winter I forget when I started seeing the invoices coming through to $78 I'm gonna say 84 Now, I don't know if that cost is going to stay there or if that was just result of Do we have to put it in an allotment or you know She she tells the purchase an allotment from them and once we exceed that allotment Then the price goes up or do you know, I don't I don't think so She she tells them what she thinks she's going to buy, but I don't believe We're I don't believe we're paying for You know 5,000 tons and if we go over that, you know the ceiling is no longer there. I don't think that's how we do it I know I was the sand is I the sand is almost as bad as the salt. I mean I was out in my End of my driveway yesterday just you know trying to rake the uh day lilies out and man a lot. There's a lot Yeah, I have a lot to do with two homeowners today Sand issues even these are on dirt roads. Yeah, right? Their lawn is like invisible, right? Yeah Was it on Maggie's way? No One was ruby raiment road Okay And the other one was off of paved road There again, and I'm not faulting the highway crew, but The mentality is such a standard that They've been practicing it for so long They don't want to hear the phone calls. I said it before That's part of perhaps part of this policy Effort that they don't receive the phone calls anymore that the board does or the chairman Uh And I think it's the first the first part is uh education We're ed you got to somehow educate the public that we're going to start to change our policy Of how we treat our roads during the winter because of the cost aspect because of the environmental impact and because of the road degradation and it's it's You know what really troubles me sometimes is the way we continue to abuse the planet we live on for Because of our selfishness because We are so unwilling to change any aspect of our life because of This mental state that we've gotten ourselves in where we're entitled to have I mean, I'm speaking from years ago When I remember bumper dragging on bank hill In the middle of the snow storm when I was a teenager and vehicles would come by and we'd run out in the road Grab the bumper and Or up on camels humped there to you know middle of the night the snow was up to your knees and Just it was a whole different world and I understand Did population was different as well Yeah, I did bumper dragging from Bolton Valley ski area all the way back to waterbury one year You did yeah down Bolton Valley and across route two and yeah So it was glass but yeah, I mean I can speak to salt and usage particularly In regards to sidewalks In that I used to plow the sidewalks for years and back in the early time when we plowed We only salted the business district, which was an area between A long main street from wanouski street to batch elder street Both sides of the street and from stow street to the elementary school And that was the only area of sidewalk that was salted back in my day when I plowed sidewalks But you plowed but we've had all yeah, and you might have put sand down or Normally was just let it pack but sand only in a case of a ice storm type of thing So it's changed a little there and and we are seeing a little bit of salt degradation on some of our concrete sidewalks as well Where did that change? When to win and how did you know that that change occurred? Was it something well the business district? Somewhat expanded, you know napa's like we're a business down here further on south main street The technology with the machinery made it easier to salt And and what have you so you could control and load and what have you easier so you did a little more And Did you pull a trailer? No, no, I had a box on the back but After that they went to a box that essentially loaded itself you could back into and scoop I loaded with a shovel So I like the small business district. That was nice. That was you know So before I forget josh Didn't you live in a state that prohibited salt use? Yeah, I lived in california the difference here in matts Where the hills are steeper and snows deeper in the salt You're just expected to maintain a vehicle that can get around it's your responsibility And isn't there rules in place that oh, I mean there's rules like you have to either have all wheel drive or it's no tires You gotta get chains you have to chain up because going over like science You need to go to the mic next time And I think the state's finally starting to recognize the impacts Um If you watch the news at all you'll see issues. I talked to a gal up at the Airgrounds there when that during the expo or whatever it was a home show there that was in charge of the lake champlain basin thing and She was saying there's one lake in new york that's Disdestroyed from salt in fact and mirror lake which I saw on the news there the other night They tried to adjust their salt use to lessen the impact, but it's not working So So I don't know where we begin with this. I really want to be serious about it. Even if it has to be cut back in stages I don't mean going from You know Quitting do we know any other impacts of data? Cold turkey do we have some scientific evidence of how much degradation is occurring due to salt? Or there other towns are ahead of us maybe on this that we could look to What are you making that transition and no nothing I'm aware of I don't know if we have evidence chain of you we have we have anecdotal evidence We know as bill said, you know, we've got some sidewalks and and with salt, you know When we did when we put the new sidewalk in on stow street We made a conscious decision not to salt that sidewalk the first year anyway just to let there be securing time and You know, we have some places where the You know the patina on the top is kind of You know, it didn't cure enough That falls out But clearly, I mean when you see There's places that you can go anywhere and I was noticing it when I was raking in my own yard yesterday You know, you've got hardwood trees that probably have over the years is there's a foot of sand that's built up around the Fronts of those trees. I can't be doing many favors I think that there's something to what you said um, both of you said First of all about climate And I mean, I know my own driveway this winter. I've never seen it So icy on a regular basis and you know, we have tenants in our house I was really aware of that And went out and spent a lot more money on sand myself than I usually do because I don't want anybody to fall down out there A lot of anecdotally people I know who broke bones this winter falling And then also expectations. I think you're absolutely right. People expect to be able to It's difficult to quantify year to year What you've used because every winter is just so different right Well, it wasn't all that long ago. I mean You probably well and to chris, but I'm sure you experienced it as a kid growing up But I remember when Howard Ripley Was the highway foreman when I first came to town and he told me he said, you know Until recently We didn't go out until it stopped snowing, you know, we just wait for the snow storm to stop Then we'll go out and clean up and you know, we Certainly there's been school buses for a long time, but in the village you didn't have to worry about it I'm sure everybody in the village when you went to school even that looked down here. It's not a lot school You know Jane you mentioned two things here. You mentioned the climate change. What are you supposed to get us there? Abuses like this, you know And to the for the lakeshine plain clean up efforts, you know part of our mandated Practices has to be stone mine ditches. You know, how long do you think it was so long ditches are going to last Before they're totally contaminated with sand You know, we gotta clean them up Hold the stones out and take the sand out for a year maybe three they're done for realistically So That's another aspect that it's going to continue to cost us money. So either we Start to learn mentally to approach driving down our roads differently Or we just continue to do the same Well, I guess my question would be is what's the next step? public meaning And the hope out of that would be to get the public interest in the idea of doing something like this and then the next step after that is actually making a plan for the following winter season and Trying x y z and seeing how it goes. I guess Ask them how they feel about it. Ask them. Are you would you be interested in allowing You know Modification of our practices going over the next couple of years and coming back to a point where We still have public safety in mind, but we're using a lot less product I guess I would be able to feeling that we could probably make those directives without necessarily calling a public meeting unless you feel There's going to be too many people on either side of this I think I think if the public knows that this is coming There'll be less phone calls saying Right, yeah, I mean I just I'm I just feel like we could just start to start to talk about Seeing if we can start to cut back and start to be a little strategic on how we use salt instead of just You know creating a little bit more of a rule based. I don't know how hard that is from your end In terms of personnel and and teaching them to do certain sections And I don't know how much you have to deal with different people driving the trucks at different times and everyone following the same strategy I'm sure it gets a little more complicated, but well part of it part of the strategy that I believe like anything humans do If you're forced to have a limited salt quantity then you're forced to have to strategically use it as you're supposed to rather than Thinking that there's a never-ending supply of it that's to try to Talk to guys that have been doing it for 20 years You know, you maybe you should change your ways a little bit here There's got to be a bigger force at hand here to Make this work. I mean what we've already exhausted our years salt budget My question is are we are we really increasing the amount of salt that we have been using over the last five years or 10 years? As I said, we're all looking at the data some winters are worse than others You can get that information. I mean, I know I guess I want some quantification Yeah, but when it started in november 1st this year this past season Well, we just started writing things practically halloween. Yeah, I think what bothers me is I don't I don't understand the reluctance to try To do something different. It's no, I don't think here's a reluctance on either side. I want to understand How the best strategy does do you try to limit the amount of salt? Or do you just start to create the rules on where you salt and where you don't And try to follow those rules, but not necessarily limit yourself to the amount of salt because you never know how winter is going to play out I think we always have to go in with a certain budget for salt anyways And then we just have the winter we have but you know, just the strategy of the kneeling flats of the world or whatever roads that You know, we think we could start pulling back salt completely or to a certain percentage I would feel like that might be the better strategy to go about this My other question and I know we're talking about Pulling back on salt, but have we ever looked at I know you said maybe the highway Building area doesn't have A space for salt storage, but I would be interested in understanding What amount of space we would need to store salt the annual cost and how much we'd save and it doesn't make sense to do Put that on the capital improvement list To you know in the long term save if it's significant dollars What's this, you know a quince set hut or something some kind of yeah I had some experience with salt cheds for my job a few years back And they're surprisingly more expensive than you think now some of the temporary structures Um are cheaper like like you're talking about like a quince set hut or a type thing They they run the risk of possibly in a big wind event being You know Detrends has some basic plans that are just stacked concrete with timber and The issue we run into is if there's not a space at the town garage That's where you load and send out your salt If you have to build your salt shed off site Then you have to truck that to where the vehicles leave or the vehicles have to go there to be loaded or They had there were some grants Through the better roads program that I manage and that those you know You had to follow federal guidelines for procurement and put them out to bid We're talking 300,000 350 for salt cheds And we would have to buy a land to do it. We don't have well, I think I was just going to say there that if the ambulance Department ends up finding an alternative site the ability to have a salt shed may present itself With the structure that's Currently being housed with the ambulance now. So that could come down the road I guess at that time I had more than one town that program pulled the plug because they realized how much it was going to cost to go Through the federal grant program and they just went out and built it themselves But Anyway, that's a that's a thought about the town garage Which one which town had the salt shed that fell over or blew over or some said, uh I know the contractor got in trouble Some are building it. Yeah. Yeah. See I think virgins just Somebody would just tell me the other day that they finally lost their battle with their salt shed down there I believe because they were trying to Do away with it, you know the the permits to Somebody who's just telling me that there the other day it's been it had been in court for years and uh Oh, there's one in uh, I lost Charlotte On the real road right away. Yeah, that's right. That's where it was. Yeah, and it was down that way somewhere Well, again, I think you can have this conversation talk about it Of one can decide whether you want to have public information meeting or not Well, I think the public from my eyes at town meeting they were kind of Interested in having the discussion and I don't know what bad would come from it Other than this 40 people showed up With bats in their hands said no way, you know, I think you need to prove to people that the roads are still going to be just as safe Well, or then I could be happy Say just as safe under what standards driving like a bat out of hell or or being responsible and doing the right thing not only for The town's budget the environment and for the road conditions themselves I mean, you can't bathe paved roads and water Through the entire winter and expect they're going to stay in good shape because that's just not the way it works They just get beat the hell So anyway Parking enforcement. Let's jump off from something else besides You got me Hit a home run there We're in the process of Specifically tonight All right, we touched on this a little bit the other day We have We adopted a parking ordinance Because the village was going away and We talked about the parking ordinance the last time when the woman from henders bakery was here Um, and we do have two-hour parking time-limited parking in several spots on the village. We have places up by the school that supposed to be no parking and You know that they had donuts for dads a couple of weeks ago and Gary Dillon sent that to me and said, you know, if we had to get a fire truck up to a whistle mountain That's what I was how we're gonna how we're gonna do this Um So we don't have any money in the budget for an enforcement officer. I don't know if there's any um inclination to Try to let me this car stuck with its wheel. Yeah, I think I just think he came out of that parking lot and decided to try to get a little closer to the bank and went over I don't know if we got stuck there or not, but I saw the same thing um I don't know if there's any I didn't see that one any uh inclination on the board's part to Circumvent if you will the budgeting process and try to hire an enforcement officer clearly if we did The enforcement officer would generate some money for tickets, but I don't think We've generated enough to cover the cost of having an enforcement officer It may be something that you want to talk about in next year's budget Next year The main street project will be in the business district of the village Mark's a business person. I know there was a lot of comments and Conversation with business owners back when we had the village police department about Having the parking ordinances enforced a little bit more consistently the last year that I guess it was the last two years the village Had its police department the trustees actually authorized me To hire a parking enforcement officer who wasn't a police officer And we even get an applicant for a job. I think I mentioned that to you at the last meeting So I'm just raising the issue We have problems around the school a lot and this is another area that we can harken back to the old days. I mean We pay a fortune for buses, but The number of people who decide they need to drop their kids off or pick their kids up from school And I'm not making a judgment. They for whatever reason they decide they have to do that And if you go over on stochery any school afternoon Uh, especially it's it's hard to get through there. I I live there for over 10 years I don't just avoid my house at those hours of the day So that's another situation of we don't want to sacrifice anything for the sake of ourselves I mean clearly if I had my way about it There'd be a rule in place that says you don't drop your kid off personally with your vehicle unless you're going by that school To go to work. Well part of the problem is is that years ago I used to actually see the water buried police department handling that Scenario and making sure that people weren't parking on the side of the road kind of queuing up You know, they were moving people along even ticketing people The contracted police department. I don't think we've empowered them to do some of that. Maybe You know or any of it so Right, so that's that's the hard part about the contracted scenario as if we did have a town Police department that wasn't in this contract some of this conversation could potentially be avoided but again, it's where you know, what size are we talking about and and the What other duties do they have in front of them? But that's the unfortunate part of that contract and I think we knew that going in but Yeah, I mean, I've definitely heard people complain about downtown, especially recently with just some of the construction that's happening Different businesses down there that there's contractor vehicles parked there all day trailers over the weekend, you know, it's just You know, there's no rule People could park there permanently for the summer now because there's no midnight Toe rule you could literally just park a third car there and second car and leave it there forever I don't know. Maybe it's my night to be a pain in the ass, but um one of my pet peeves here is Well, first I'm going to ask you Who has the right to set the parking finds? Is that another state? No, no That's ability or is that so we have the full right to set the parking Fine at whatever we want to set it at. Okay that might be the first intelligent step forward To make a parking fine I won't say so excessive but so painful That people would want to abide by the parking Rules that are set in place, but I think before you worry about increasing the fine No, what to my point enforcement officer right to my point if if we charge enough Maybe we can afford to have a private officer That will be paid enough to want to take on that type of a project Or you know job Well, there's nothing prescribed in line and I know of chris That you know there's I think the handicap parking spot violations set by state law You have to be careful to be reasonable If you you know if you decided you want a parking ticket be a hundred dollars, you know if somebody's parked there It's a two hour Two hour parking limit there are two and a half hours and you give them a hundred dollar ticket I think that if they went to court and challenged that the judge would probably say that's not a reasonable fine I think you'd hear business owners potentially worried about that just certain people are going to get caught XYZ and then all of a sudden, you know, we become a Unconsumer friendly town or expert like you got to worry about that a little bit. I think so here's my Issue with that. So we've got a situation where we're trying to solve a problem but So you want to go into debt doing it because you don't want to raise fines hefty enough to pay for the enforcement of it Because you're afraid you're going to tick people off and they're I mean, it's It's just like driving on the interstate during a snowstorm during Bad conditions You know a ticket still a ticket you might run five other people off the road and getting a Pile up because your foolishness to drive too fast and your ticket if you get one ticket Might be 200 bucks if it was a thousand dollars for driving too fast for the conditions I can guarantee you I'm going to drive below the speed limit and do whatever I need to do it is To drive responsibly and so that's kind of where we're coming coming from here But there's also the the prevailing Again, it's not codified law but when you talk to any lawyer about Setting up an ordinance Whether it's a speed ordinance or parking ordinance the Main purpose of the ordinance is not to generate fine money In the perfect world you want an ordinance that people obey And you never have to write one ticket I mean if the state police are out there And if everybody's obeying the speed limit They're going to see their revenues go down dramatically from what they are now, but it's a better and safer world so A judge is going to tell you that the purpose of any ordinance is to protect the public safety and the public well-being And enforcement isn't part of it, but nobody's going to say you should be able to You should be able to generate enough money through your enforcement to pay for it. So this letter right here is for the application for the Board bench for out next for one of the children five children that got killed on the interstate, okay The legislative body up at the state house this year looked at raising the fine for using Was it for cell phone use To 250 bucks And somebody said that that was excessive And I said to myself So that's the value they're putting on a human life is 250 dollars They're worried about impacting somebody's pocketbook When their foolishness talking on the phone on the interstate could cause a collision that could kill somebody and that's They thought that 250 dollars was excessive I mean, that's the kind of mentality that we deal with in our society where You're trying to solve a problem, but you don't want to have the guts to do what needs to be done All right, but there's a big difference between what you hear example You just gave and the one of of illegal parking. So let's just bring that in Well, I don't just agree with you, but there's a big difference between somebody talking on a cell phone Driving their car and parking a car illegally up here at the Zen barn when there's both sides of the road You can't even squeeze through there. All right. Well, that's some kind of and that's another issue Just like she just showed us in that all right Well that somebody could get seriously hurt or even killed coming around that corner during one of those nights Same kind of thing Well, those aren't even legal parking space though Bill, can you remind us when you did uh when you actually went out to try to get a parking enforcement? I don't know if you call them officers, but uh When when we when we did that what happened? How much were we offering to pay and is that something we should just consider? You know putting out there again. I don't you know for something some of this stuff I think even if we got one that came on for a couple months and then went away and we just kind of kept the open offer out there And people came and go into that role Just some of these sporadic enforcement of that might start to write some of this ship, right? So it was when the police department was here And I think we were offering $15 an hour but you know in the In the idea was you know I'm sure for the For the public and I tried to spell it out in the ad I probably still have the ad somewhere You know we were probably willing to hire a couple of people because To do it you have to be out there enough to be consistent But obviously we weren't looking to hire somebody 40 hours a week to go out there and do this you know we wanted a couple of hours a day and we you know ideally we were looking for somebody who You know maybe was retired and was looking to earn a little extra money And you know today and tomorrow they might decide to go out there at 10 o'clock in the morning and next week They go out there at four to six in the afternoon And and we just didn't you know we weren't able to attract anybody And it may have been because the police department was here and at the time the police department Was not held in high esteem and maybe people just didn't want to work You know in report to the chief of police. I don't I don't know you know people don't typically Call you up and say well, I didn't apply because you know I just didn't apply Do you think it's something that could be added on or made part of somebody else's job that already works for the town? No, thank you Yeah, it's conceivable I think people would hate you Yeah Yeah, I I just brought it up now really more to plant the seed I didn't think that anybody would want to do it, you know kind of completely out of the budget But I think going forward it's something that we need to think about a little bit Like it's six hours a week. I just did quick for like six hours a week 52 weeks a year at $15 an hour is like 40 700 bucks a year. So For under $5,000 a year we could I think as long as you just do it enough To get the word around town that tickets are popping up on people's cars people start to That that word spread. So I think that would be where you don't want this Position to break the bank, but I think there's a way to I think part of the reason why we don't have that Is that we haven't gone up back out looking for someone to fill that role, but if we I can't remember. I think I was advertising for like 10 hours or something like that So I'll agree with that mark. I mean if you can somehow incorporate get a Valuation on how many possible tickets would be handed out And somehow we do with the formula to come up with a reasonable ticket fee Uh and make those numbers work, but I'm not interested in And I don't know that the other two board members that are here tonight are not interested in taking on more debt without A revenue source for Yeah, I would like to see what our current fine structure is for Arcing All right, and I apologize jane for me being a little bit Overzealous, but I'm tired of being responsible for everybody else's irresponsibility I mean those people ought to know that are parked side to road up there that you know Fire trucks and other emergency vehicles can't get through, but they go ahead and do it anyway I mean look just count the signs that say no parking. Yeah, I'm not defending me I'm not defending these and and mark made a good point that without any regulation people can park overnight They can park for months and no one's gonna No one's gonna challenge them. So yeah, I think there's rules in place. They just ignore them They ignore all the irresponsibility. Oh, there's no enforcement. Yes, that's you know, this is always even when the police were here I mean and then you know the police would go up there. I remember Probably three years ago the police went up on one of these days and And the phone rang for three days people all upset because you know some people got towed some people The they're getting out of the car and the police officer told them. Hey, there's no parking there And they just looked at it said well my kids got a program. I'm going in to watch it And when they came out the car was gone They were pretty mad All right, yes, okay The rest of yours bill roadie club requests. Okay, um the rotary club They did the not quite independent stay celebration last year at rusty park park They did not request to close rotarian way Last year, which is the little road that runs from park row Over to park street moody court and right in front of the railroad station They would like to close it this year Um Just because it would make a they feel it better entryway and then you know Shepherding people through the gates and everything that they had there Um, I think for one day it's it's okay The people from moody court or park street Can still get out to main street getting home is the difficulty and I think that um You know, we might have to work with them to say We'll let you close the street down, but you need to have somebody there That's able to move a barricade and if somebody is coming home to Uh house on moody court And they want to get home they Probably shouldn't be expected to you know park over beside the railroad station Maybe they could keep it clear just so that when those cars come they could allow them through So if you want to make it On that condition that they have to uh accommodate local traffic local residents If you want to make the motion to do that, I'll work with them and if they can't do that And we'll just say you can't close it. Yeah, I don't think there's a timeline, right? It has to be kind of they have to have somebody there for the entire Yeah, they they'll have to have some structures in place so a car can get through I I would be in favor of that and they could even Meet with those residents and find out what their Plans are for the day. Somebody love to make a motion to that. I'll make a motion to Allow closing. Can I suggest a different alternative? What if they would what if they just closed park row off from park row restaurant down to main street? Because then you would still be able to Access all of the residential By coming up around That's a long way either No, but you would if you basically were the park row cafe to main street We would record people what could go over down railroad come over the railroad and then get to their house They could get out there would be no problem You could basically permanently set up park row Without having to worry about trying to get a car through there in the middle of like I just worry about the scenario of like having to move barricades and there's if it's as busy as they hope It to be trying to walk a car through a bunch of people's to me not necessarily the Best strategy there where a park row. There's no residential right there And I don't know how much those businesses would be against it probably give them more Visibility to whatever the party is, but it wouldn't I just don't know how you would do it the other way with the one way being That other road Okay Um Well, then if you wanted to make a motion to Authorize me to work with the road reflect to make something that's workable Understanding that residents have to get in and out Could we offer up with the motion park row as an alternative if if we're all in agreement that that would also be okay So then you can make the motion or workable I mean, maybe they could permanently leave one I'll make a motion to allow the rotary club to close either Rotarian way or park row Rotarian way only if they can come up with a Plan for moody court residents or anyone else on that. Yeah, it's not on the moody court Right, it's that rest of that other one way, right? Yeah I'll second that Karla, yeah, okay The jeans second it Any further discussion Okay, I'll those who wish to approve it. Say aye please. Aye. So the tax anticipation borrowing You've already authorized tax anticipation borrowing between To and from the utility district and the town has been borrowing from the utility district Probably borrowed a couple hundred thousand dollars now Um, as I said, you know, we came into the year with the lowest fund balance that we had in a long time It probably didn't Budget well enough as far as the interest expense for tax anticipation borrowing. We only budgeted $2,500. I'm sure we'll go over that But there's other places that we can squeeze that. I don't think it's going to be Exorbitant it's not going to be problematic but the utility district has recently made some loans from the UDAG fund, which is Where the town has been borrowing from? And because they've made some loans, they don't have much more that the town is able to borrow. So We worked with the People's United Bank and We secured a line of credit for 1.4 million dollars at two and three quarter percent And it's the maturity date is December 30th We're limited to the number of advances that we can take monthly they have to we can Do two draws a month. They have to be at least $50,000 So I would just ask that you make a motion to Authorize this tax anticipation borrowing and then sign the note and resolution where indicated And We'll clearly only borrow if necessary, but I want to have that ability to borrow from the bank Since it looks like the e-bud won't have enough to keep us until a while Here you go chris Somebody wish to make that motion that I'll make a motion to allow tax the anticipation borrowing As described by bill Thanks So there's several places there you've got to see it. I'll second. Okay any further discussion All those in favor say aye. Hi. Hi I didn't want to go signing it before we voted on it. Yeah Thank you, bill now last thing on the agenda Action against the town Yep, you don't have to go into executive session josh constate This I So, um, just to report, uh, the human rights commission has decided to file suit Against us. Um, we decided at the last meeting, uh, that we were going to reject the the the last, um Offer of a settlement And all I'm doing now is just reporting to you that they have filed suit Unless the board directs. Otherwise, I'm going to just, uh, wave the service requirement The law says that if you sue The county sheriff has to come out and give you a summons and tell you that you've been sued But if you wave service, you actually have a longer period of time in which to respond to the suit. So Waving services to our advantage If they serve you you got to end up they file a motion that you have to pay for the service. So It's cheaper to do it this way But I what I wanted to let you know was that there was speculation In the newspaper mainly from the other party to the suit that The suit would be filed in federal court But the suit has been filed in the washington unit of the superior court state of vermont The human rights commission Has their authority through the vermont legislature and vermont statutes. So they're They're suing under state law. It's not they have not filed a federal complaint and from what I understand the human rights commission doesn't have Standing to file in federal court If the If the aggrieved party Wanted to file in federal court his own suit. He could he could do that if he chose, but it's been filed in washington superior court and I will direct the Our attorney to waive the service requirement And then I think we'll have about 60 days to respond At some point I'll have some information for you from our insurance company with regard to You know If there's a reservation of rights letter written, I've informed the insurance company that the suit has been filed And and you know, they're working to make sure that They Follow what the policy is and and You know the the suit has been filed and and I know we've gone through months of Trying to come to a settlement But I can guarantee you that will be the first directive of the judge will be you need to try to mediate this and keep it out of court so We're probably going to get back into a situation where we're Trying to come to a settlement that doesn't require a trial but That step has been taken and we're on that path You know, it's gonna be the next agenda. It's on the next I know they didn't drop one off for you, but you were cc'd on it, but I emailed it to you Okay, I'll make a motion to adjourn. I'm just gonna say I guess we're done So motion to adjourn would be appropriate and a second second All those in favor And we made it we made it on time