 Ladies and gentlemen a warm welcome to you to the World Economic Forum to to wonderful snowy Davos that has fulfilled all of our dreams of what a Alpine city should look like in the winter And and given us some of us some hope that maybe we've got a few more years on this earth It's not you know, maybe maybe winter still loves us and cold weather is okay as a Canadian I'm very happy to see the weather out there if I were a driver I wouldn't be as happy but glad to see that you are all here. Thank you to the way to you for coming to what I think is And I'm biased, but I think it's probably one of the most important conversations We're going to have this week given that the theme of Davos this year is coming together in a fractured world I think that we can no longer I think I have a panel full of optimists, but you cannot no matter how optimistic you are Pretend that there are not fractures that require all of our attention to heal Many of the people on my panel have devoted their lives to in their own way Maybe not getting up every morning saying I'm healing fractures in the world But they have been doing things either studying it or healing it or fixing it or developing policy to fix it And we need that expertise now more than ever We are in a world where there's no more margin for error in hoping that you're on the right side of fixing this problem because It is a fissure and it is growing around the world and we need to address it So I want to introduce you first of all I want to tell you that I'm gonna take questions from those in the room and those of you Watching this on the live stream for those of you watching it and frankly if you're in this room You can go to wef.ch Slash ask World Economic Forum wef.ch Slash ask and you can ask your question you can also see the Questions that are posted and if you really like those questions you can vote on them And that'll bring them to my attention even faster so that I can ask them also for those of you in the room I will be there'll be a microphone and we'll be taking your questions And we really would like your your questions and input the one thing I always have to warn people at the World Economic Forum is that this is a gathering of some remarkably smart people Many of whom have very well-developed theses Which we don't have the allotted time to hear the whole thing on so I would ask that they they try and stick to questions as much as possible From the other thing that I've done is I've I put out a poll on social media asking people To what degree I'll ask I'll tell you the question that I posted. I said to what degree What effect do you think culture has on politics now that may seem like a very obvious question to you And to the folks that I asked on social media It seemed obvious 90% of the people who responded to my Twitter question Believe that culture has either a major or some impact on politics I guess that's a good a good response and I'm gonna ask the Panelists about that. I guess we're happy that people think culture has an impact on politics Otherwise at least two of my panelists Might be out of jobs. Let me introduce my panelists to you starting on your right current Johar Again, a lot of my panelists don't need an introduction introduction He is one of the most famous Indian film directors producers and scheme screenwriters He has a big movie coming out tomorrow. I believe tomorrow is the theatrical release very soon No, no, I don't have No, unfortunately not not very soon, but all right well soon. It'll be tomorrow one day He's a TV host. He's a radio personality, but what he's really known for Is pushing cultural limits? And he does it in a country that sometimes pushes back and so that's a discussion We're going to have for those of us in America who think we're the only people pushing back We're actually fairly late to the game He's actually Costa Pakistani in a starring role of his latest film. He's start-up controversy And he's the author of a new memoir called an unsuitable boy We're gonna talk a lot about the the struggles that you come up against and how you face them and seem to enjoy them Arleigh Haaschild is a professor of sociology at University of California Berkeley She's the director of the Center for Working Families there. She studies the impact of globalization on social patterns Obviously, if you're here at the World Economic Forum, you have some sense of the import of globalization positively or negatively Well, Arleigh studies this. She has also studied Before it became fashionable for all of us to do so the American right And she's written a book recently called strangers in their own land anger and mourning on the American right And she's done a lot of work with people who are representing a group in America that has felt very left out and is now Reclaiming the stage in in their opinion. We're gonna talk a little about this her excellency Alice Bakunke is the minister of culture and democracy in Sweden she is a former television presenter and she has She also founded a civil society think tank in in Stockholm and really brings a lot of that experience to bear in determining what a government's response should be to these challenges of Of the weaponization of culture something that they face in Sweden as well and my old old friend yo, yo, ma was not that old He's my longtime friend Has been and he's really it's so great to call him a friend because He's so accomplished that it makes me feel more accomplished just by knowing him He has been an accomplished cellist. He's been playing the cello since the age of four He has he's performed in every way that you can imagine In solos with orchestras in recitals He's performed on 90 albums and won 18 Grammy Awards And I would be in awe of him anyway except for the fact that almost 20 years ago. He Started something called the Silk Road And it is I'm gonna ask him to describe it because I've it's evolved in my mind so much But fundamentally when we think about the weaponization of culture yo, yo, ma is the opposite of the weaponization of culture He took things that I think it would have been very easy for everybody to weaponize the fact that people have different cultures and speak Different languages and play different instruments and listen to different music and somehow his response to all of that is wow This would be terrific if they all just did it together So he has been thinking about this maybe without actively thinking about it Probably for all his life. So I cannot imagine a better panel and I'm so happy And I'm sorry for the long introduction because I'm gonna get right to it The question of the role that culture plays in politics and since I've got a minister of culture here Obviously in Sweden, they think it's an important role and a necessary role. Yes we think that culture is of course very important essential but Culture needs to be free to be culture So I always say that if culture if the arts ain't free then it's pointless And that is nice words to say but to do politics and policies around that It means that my main purpose as the minister of culture in the in the cabinet is to Defend the artistic freedom and to increase it with politics So that means that we during these three soon four years that we have been in government We have for example put laws in that will hinder politicians to stare Our institutions and this this was a big debate We really cut the rope between politicians and our museums We have a museum law making them free and independent as long as the law is there Because we know that they are right wing movements for example in Sweden that really wants to use culture for a purpose to Define the nationalism and define that would be in fact this question of weaponizing culture That's taking culture and using it not in the way that you're thinking about it But to to to create divisions in society exactly and another thing that we have done is to really Increase the the amount of the taxpayers money going into Country in the whole of our country never before has so much money from the state budget gone to culture as today Is there a lot of resistance to that? well It is those who say why is so much money putting into culture when we needed to Healthcare to the police and to the military and we say and the prime minister say and I as of course as the minister of Culture say but we invest in our people in our democracy by investing in the free arts Arleigh, let me ask you about this because in America I don't know that people would say that culture doesn't play a role in politics But there's really a question of what you mean by culture or whose culture Certainly among some of the people you've studied On the right they have a feeling that their culture wasn't represented and that somebody's culture was out there It just wasn't theirs. That's exactly right. What I did was start in my political bubble, which is Berkeley, California, so Blue City, Blue State and Figured that we're all in bubbles. Let me get into an equal and opposite bubble How far right can I go? So that would take me to the south and to the super south that would be Louisiana Into the oil country there and to talk to blue-collar whites evangelicals for five years. I hung out Going back and forth and you know Yeah, they don't feel that Seen they feel put down and and Let me if I could just tell you a story of what happened to me I I went there and said hi. I'm Marley Hokeshield sociologist blah blah and I'm writing a book I I know what I think but I don't know what you think and we were split and They said well Yeah, you you don't know who we are and thanks for coming and I was at a meeting of Republican women of Southwest Louisiana Around the table of eight eight women all of these became ardent Trump supporters I didn't know that when I began 2011 and one said oh, I love rush Limbaugh Well, he's a very conservative Dominator of the daytime radio and and highly conservative and So and he's the person who says that environmentalists are environmental wackos and that feminists are all Feminizes and so on so I had a moment I was trying to cross an empathy bridge and trying to take my own alarm system off and be an listener and this woman I said, you know, could we talk say Have some sweet teas tomorrow would that work out? Yes, and you can explain to me why you love Rush Limbaugh. So next day sweet teas were sitting at a table and I ask her Well, thanks for coming and and yeah, so what what what is it you love about him? Well? He hates feminizes I don't know Google me And then I asked her well, what is a feminazi? Well, it's a cold hard mean Ambitious woman who puts her children aside or family aside. Whoo. Who are we talking about, you know? But I just listened, you know, and then on environmental wackos. They were mean people who worship animals and Think they're more important than people wouldn't like that Then she said is it hard for you to listen to what I'm saying You told me you don't you know come from the same place and have these feelings and I told her, you know Actually, it's not hard at all. I have my alarm system off. I know about me But you're really doing me an enormous favor for which I'm really grateful to let me know how you feel you know her next sentence was I Know I do that too Yeah, I do that with my parishioners. I stop and listen. I do that with my kids and then we had that in common and then So bond we could both see both sides then it turns out that she was a gospel extraordinary gospel singer in a Pentecostal mega church in Lake Charles and she invited me to come and hear her sing so I'm sitting in the front row and and then she got up and she sang a song for me, you know But there are 700 people It isn't that hard if you really come from the right place I I think I know it is hard, but it's amazing how quickly you can yeah Yes, but that caveat if you come from the right place. Yeah is I think the part I mean when you started talking about the empathy bridge, I was thinking have we burned all those bridges are there empathy bridges left So I think we need to explore that and I think that the interesting concept that I just got in my mind about an empathy bridge is that it is on two sides and Everybody's got to make a bit of a journey and I want to get to that in a moment the concept of tolerance of intolerance and And what what those of us who don't think we're ripping the place apart need to do to rebuild it current I want to go to you for a second though It's interesting to get out of the United States and realize that Europe's got The weaponization of culture and it's been going on for a long time, but boy in India I don't know if you can even ask a question like is does culture have an impact on politics culture and politics have been Interwoven and intertwined and politics gets involved in culture quite a bit in India Yeah Well sometimes what happens is when the when the two get intertwined it actually takes away from the real issues of the country Because I think you know when we associate culture with history and historical facts and the culture is very essential to our country You know we come from a very culturally rich country. It's in the DNA of our existence It's the way we are but it doesn't mean that you should you should enforce it You should imbibe it and that's my that's always been my mantra It's not that you know when politicians use culture for like their own personal purposes to incite You know the the voting audiences that they talk to sometimes that really is bothersome because culture is Intensically a part of who we are. It's what we are, but that's it. That's what we should be Let's talk about issues that plague our country that no one wants to talk about, you know We have we have problems well. We have problems Economically politically socially, you know, we definitely have so many so many issues that plague us on a daily basis Sometimes those are just not addressed sometimes we're holding on to things You know where there could be one kind of minority group that will object to a say a piece of creative work You know, it's a film. It's a filmmaker's perspective But suddenly you'll find mainline papers politicians everyone invested in a feature film like while that's great I feel very important that you know, I'm a filmmaker. So obviously when the focus of the nation goes on to like our fraternity It's very empowering, but it's also ridiculous because we're making we're telling a story. It's a percent like we have a recent release That's going to release day after it's a film called Padma. What that's the one I was talking about. That's not my film. Oh What I meant was a film is being released very soon that he may see Or may have been made by somebody from the same country It's made by a very genius filmmaker called Sanjali Lavansali and he's been come back indicated He's been combating the issue for like about like a year now and there's been so much There's been a storm like everyone's talking about it We have sectors and minor groups objecting to its release vandalizing properties talking about the misrepresentation of history Talking about and the fact that this is the weaponization of culture. This is exactly what we're talking about. It's ridiculous Why why is I sometimes wonder why is the media reportage so excessive on this? Why are you empowering those people like so my problem is don't report they won't be empowered And if you don't empower them then that will actually take care of the problem to a large extent But here everyone is stopping suddenly I feel like there's so much happening Thank God for for you know prime minister Narendra Modi who came to Davos and some of the focus shifted You know to find you what what really is the brass tacks of India Which is our prime minister talking about world business as opposed to a feature film that is Creating like this big storm in an elaborate tea cup for no reason I mean it's a great feature film and we feel really strong about it as an industry But you have no idea what is happening how interesting go on social media There are people vandalizing properties states are banning it even though the Supreme Court has voted in favor of the film Yet there is that kind of destruction and violence that surrounds it and everyone literally is praying on Bended knees for its safe and smooth release day after wow actually what you're talking about is Exceptually relevant to the country we come from just now So when you talk about weaponization of culture, I'm like there's a strong difference There is culture and then there's vulture and the two cannot be integrated Why do you think the report thing is the problem that I find so I'm gonna actually that's a good and I want to I want to Freedom because I completely think that it should be reported But sometimes there are reporters who don't actually understand the sensitivity of the situation because you empower some of the groups Who are actually are creating that kind of violence But what is the the journalists are there to to find out the truth to Investigate to broaden their perspectives. I mean they don't take side Well, sometimes unfortunately, they do and that's what happens. I mean, I'm not saying I'm all about the media I'm a member of media myself like I have a talk show host I have opinions on every but I just feel sometimes you have to kind of there's a fine line You know that that goes between like opinion and reportage and I think sometimes many members of the media I can only speak about some of them in my country some of them I respect deeply and some of them I feel empower the wrong people. Well, at least you don't have the fake news Like we have in America, right? You brought up something that I thought was really interesting and and yo-yo had talked about it a few weeks ago when we were discussing it I want to ask the control room to put up a Venn diagram of the intersection that you were just talking about of politics economics and culture Yo, you'll walk us through this because we all Obviously dwell in the world of economics unless you're well, even if you're independently wealthy You still have to dwell in the world of economics We mostly dwell in the world of politics because we've all got some of it in our lives But your point is if you are arguing if you're pushing back against the weaponization of culture There's one spot on that diagram that is the best for you. It's your party the green The green it's the green spot. I think that's the spot that Arleigh is talking about that's the spot where people listen and that's the spot where Culture is not subsumed By politics because it has it's a different engine. I I kind of think you know politics is about governing and economics is about creating Value and culture is about creating values and and I think culture actually When well-practiced provides trust So the currency of culture is trust. It's a shorthand for you know, if you are Filmmakers understand one another scientists understand one another musicians can look at each other in the eye and then just immediately coordinate and speak through the language of sound but Many many layers get expressed look in the eye Arleigh. I know we come from Berkeley We don't need to say anything more right and just little bits of information can give you vast Amount of information so that that green spot is where I would love To work more and more in because I feel that if you know the topic from Davos this Year, it's you know, we live in a fractured world. Well the shared narrative is going to be in that green spot is going to be when the different languages of politics economics and culture Come together so that we can serve Humanity it's not about serving a party or getting to you know more people to come to our concert or to It's really about how we can actually Live a common goal And and and to your point earlier Ali, I don't think that You know that the when we focus so much on what separates us and We forget about that 99 point whatever percent of our genes are the same Of our DNA is the same so that tiny difference is what we focus all of our differences on and you know So I feel like there's something in that green spot that is worth looking at because if we're going to solve our problems It takes everybody So one of the things Minister that that we're struggling with in the United States and there are you know hundreds of thousands of examples around the world But I'll just pick this one this issue of Players kneeling at football games during the national anthem This is an issue that has become so politicized now that Americans have taken a view that is often expressed in polls about whether they are in favor of Or against these players being allowed to kneel during the national anthem and whether it's disrespectful or patriotic But in fact the first time a player kneel during the national anthem. It was a protest about Inequality in society Police violence things like that and that doesn't come into the discussion anywhere And otherwise this this underlying issue that some may believe is not important and some may believe is important Isn't actually part of the discussion now when you ask somebody in America What do you think of the players kneeling it becomes about whether it's disrespectful or whether you know what I mean So ultimately the problem with weaponizing culture is that you can miss out on solving the actual problem That's underneath it. That's one of the problems with weaponizing culture I mean and that's also what I am afraid of when they come to to me too and the movement We see all over the world and in Sweden that we are I mean and there are four powers that want us to discuss the smaller things the The ones the things that isn't the real problems that structures when it comes to me too and for example, I mean Sometimes when these powers that want us to believe that different cultures can't interact even though We know and the scientist tells us that the human being have been doing it for for thousands of years It has been proven for probably 20 years I mean those powers they want us to believe that we can't be together and that we shouldn't be together So by using the term As a struggles between cultures and cultural conflicts, we are really Increasing I mean minimizing the real problems. So that maybe is about hunger in justice I mean those real Big challenges that needs intellectualism that needs the people in powers that are really Willing to to take the hard way not the easy way out Arleigh, let's talk about How you address people's grievances without Inherently minimizing it. So you talked about your alarms being off Most of us don't have that skill to turn our alarms off So somebody says something that is inherently offensive to us or counter to how we see the world How do you make that productive because it sounds like all of us all around the world are engaged in this Actually, I think we're all very good at it. It's I accept that We do it with our loved ones. We do it with our children. We do it with our friends. We do it with our students No problem. We're actually Very skilled at it, but we just don't do it with people. We think of as quote the other, you know the enemy So that's the only switch, you know, even before I I left for this project I'd tell people what I was doing. They said, oh, no, I couldn't do that I'd be mad all the time, you know, but that's Just to be clear you you you were able to keep those alarms off to the degree that Think we were productively engaging. Oh, yeah, I was actually thrilled to do it Thrilled to actually I'm an opinionated person in truth. And and so it was kind of Healing for me to be able to set myself that far aside. It's not that you do it forever I came home people asked if your politics change. No, not one ounce. Have I changed? Yes very profoundly I feel Bigger more related to people that I I didn't know before and I'm more Actually sensitive to social class prejudice, you know, I I'm always Alert to racial prejudice, but social class prejudice. No, I I came back learning about that and how just to finish the story about the The gospel singer one part I forgot to say is she said, you know why I really Love Rush Limbaugh this super culture Webinizer is because he protects me from people on the coasts and liberals That look down on me that I'm southern that I'm ill educated that I'm racist and Sexist and homophobic and fat and and he's protecting me from that Well, I learned a ton, you know, so I think it's just who we address our Capacity to empathize to it's not a question of a paucity because we all do it with somebody Yeah, we all are able to empathize if we're with our kids or or our spots. How even kids do it. Well Karen, I To what degree I mean, do you look for these fights in India? Like do you sometimes get are you exhausted that they have to happen all the time? Do you just want to do your art and and not have to worry about it or having grown up there? Do you get that stop arts politicized culture is politicized in India? No, I'm kind of used to it now Ali I think that the way it is it's happened to me twice in my career I've had to fight three kind of situations to do with my films one was to do with them the Mispronunciation of the city that I live in it's now Mumbai But it used to be Bombay and there was a film that I released way back in October 2008 where the lead protagonist of the film called the film called the city Bombay and The film was like the it was threatened by a political party that they would vandalize any Cinema hall that played the film because the character called it Bombay and I even went to the powers to be to kind of request them and The gentleman who came with me Even said oh, sir. It's a case of colloquial parlance But of course that gentleman was not about to listen to any kind of you know kind of reasoning and then it happened to me with My name is Khan When a film that I released in 2010 which spoke about the misrepresentation of Islam as a result of what had happened post 9-11 and there was a backlash that I had to combat the film was banned in the state of Maharashtra for various reasons and And then it happened with Edil and Mushkil where I cast a Pakistani actor and again It was like that. I'm being non-Indian and I'm being I'm being not I'm not being patriotic And I remember I had to put out literally a hostage video Where I had to apologize and I had to say because the studio wanted me to do that Because they felt that was the right thing to do to communicate my patriotism. It made me feel very little It made me feel very small. You were forced. I was well I was asked that that's the only way the film would release if I were forced by the economic patriotic I'm nationalistic in my sentiment and by me casting a Pakistani actor It was not that it was a reflection of my patriotic spirit and after that and if you ask me today I would never do that again because it was such an error of judgment and I felt small I felt tiny I felt cornered and I felt terrible that I had to it was My film was a love story. It spoke about unrequited love It spoke about emotion and I'd cast brilliant actor and you know And I always say that art has no boundaries artists should not have boundaries What happens on the political arena should not reflect on decisions that we make creatively, but then culture is thrown at us You know patriotism is thrown at us and it's thrown at us and we have seemed to be accountable to those forces So when you ask me that you know, am I looking for a fight? No, I'm not. Yes, my alarms are always on Unfortunately, I've really learned a lot by hearing you because suddenly it gave me perspective You know, I feel like I have to have that alarm to be able to kind of understand You know when we have people like you know who kind of throw culture on home say homosexuality You know when they say it's not our culture to be homosexual It really angers me because I believe in equality and there are those forces and and there are those groups that say things like this And it's out there and those leaders are given a platform and it really angers me and yet Then you wonder if you really say what's in your heart and soul Whether you can go back home safe or you'll have some kind of a legality thrown at you and you'll have to fight that I've had about 20 FIRs, you know for things that I've said in my films Comments that have been made and it's not that I make I'm meant to be like a peaceful filmmaker who makes like like like Basically mainstream entertainers for wholesome family Audiences but yet somehow the other I seem to land up in the lap of trouble all the time But you're an artist. Yes, and I think that politicians like me and especially ministers of culture Our main purpose is to save God artists Yes, and that is the best thing that we can do for democracy and for my people And ma'am that is such a beautiful thing to say and we live by people like you you give us strength You give us hope, you know, and I think that there are there men and women like you who think like you Makes us feel like we can continue doing what we want to do We can express on celluloid exactly what we want and we don't feel restricted But unfortunately we have circumstances that don't always support us. You know, you you have Been dealing with this type of stuff and I'd be interested in your experiences because almost 20 years ago You decided to create art wasn't meant to be controversial Like like you're saying your stuff wasn't isn't by design controversial But there must be some people who said what are you doing? What are you up to? Why are you bringing things together that shouldn't be together apples and pears as they say in Sweden, right? Absolutely. Well, I Think what's interesting is well for me the work is to turn What someone says is mine into ours, right? I think and the more I've Looked into different cultures the more the deeper you look the more you find the world Because you at one layer maybe it seems This culture has nothing to do with any other place, but you dig a little bit a couple hundred years a couple thousand years It's all there and so my question always is how You know when we talk about culture often We think of it like as something static You know the weaponization of culture. Well, I think culture is actually was invented by humans in fact all of culture was invented by humans that's a recent realization and For certain purposes to one to understand our environment To to understand who we are and three to understand others So if that if we believe in that then the next step is to think about well Culture we invented culture. So if we don't like something Why are we not trying to change it and? Given new evidence new facts new truths. Why can't we? You know, we're not in we're not in a little box And and so I think I think very often we're educated to think to be specialists Because that's the best way to find a job, right? You can't but it used to be that People were generalists and knew a lot of things But now we're kind of like, you know more and more it's STEM steam what you know, it's it's it's as if these things are not connected and That's to me is very sad because I think the the very innovation and creativity that we seek to Dig ourselves out of the troubles that we face come from From people who actually know Different things very often you don't get you know new thinking coming from the depth of One area if I look at this panel, right quite varied you all have many Existences Many layers of it and I'm sure you use them To do your work well Right. I mean I don't need to go further and so so to me It's kind of strange to just to have a title like you know the weaponization of culture because Culture is about understanding. I knew that would be strange to you Because like I said, you're the opposite you can't I don't even think you can conceptualize of the weaponization of culture because you're What you read as culture is only something that should be understood and shared by people because because what Arley's work is Good because she started from the inside of a culture I think for me any time you look at a group of people or a discipline you have to start from the inside and Arley has a wonderful story of of a student Who said oh, I know who you can talk to? my mother Whose best friend is someone in the tea party. So suddenly those were your guides and I I would wager that all of us going into our different fields of We're guided there by somebody who took us inside. So let me take that Let me go forward with a question that I wanted to ask and and you're free by the way to respond to it at wef.ch Slash I've lost it slash ask Got a small brain. I forget these things wef.ch slash ask What what you just said yo-yo and and what you have all been talking about and what Arley went and did in Louisiana is You use the word empathy, but let me just use This concept of tolerance, which is something we we we talk about a lot Are you talking about? being tolerant of someone's intolerance in order to Meet on that bridge of empathy do we have to be tolerant of intolerance because I think that's part of the problem Well, whatever side of this debate you're on you don't want to validate that other person's view which might be Might be bigoted in your opinion or it might be something that attacks you. How do you deal with that? Yeah, what you want to do is open up What you want to do is set down a preliminary human layer of Interaction that's respectful with liking Into open up what would be a prejudice? I think You know, I've been very inspired by Yo-yo's work at the silk Road and In a way and the turning mice into our I and this relates to your experience too There is a Feminist from Morocco Muslim named Fatima Marnisi. She's no longer with us, but she was best-selling author and wrote a book on women in Islam at very controversial and so on and She knew that a lot of Moroccans were migrating to Italy and Italy was prejudice right against Muslims were frightened of them the men were you know Dangerous the women didn't speak and so on there were these prejudices so she went with Sort of a silk root thing. She went to She brought with her a caravan Sibik of human rights activists and environmentalist a Woman working on the code familial and so on and and Musicians and so she was doing this quote book tour, but she was taking along this group so that the Ideas would change and one of the performances as they went from city to city down Italy Was a man who was a traditional? Who who did very traditional Moroccan music and he had very traditional outfit with slippers that kind of Looked like elves. They sort of came up. He was very elegant and he began with this atonal music that people couldn't relate to you know it was atonal and but people were listening respectfully and Trying to get into it the next song He did was a little less atonal it had to do with the Spanish influence and the melange the new The new ways music went together and people felt it was a little more familiar and then the next tune people were tapping their Their feet and in a way it was educational for everybody they could see all these aren't so different There was a the me's turn into an hour and I thought we just need to do that all over that The whole world economic forum ought to develop the ways in which we have caravan civics I'm sorry Fatima isn't here to lead it ourselves, but maybe we can do some degree Yo's work does but but I think we put so many different things into the word Tolerance and intolerance. I mean as many as we are here. We have different It means different things for us, but I think as a politician and as part of a cabinet a government I think we need to be very very Tolerant because what's what's there? What more do we have to choose about? I mean is it war? I mean so I mean we have to be very tolerant against intolerance and then in the end we have the rule of law we have The the the judge system and so on and so forth but until that So it's a very gray scale We need to be very tolerant so that we can meet and have this discussion so that the me can be our so Karen The idea that you can be friends with someone who shares a different political interest saying that my mother is a Democrat is very different than saying my mother's a homophobe or my sister's a racist So when we talk about the degree to which we have to understand tolerance and build bridges To empathy and I say this knowing that you do this in your in your practice so it's a bit of a rhetorical question, but When confronted with the threats and the social media attacks and things like this that you think are sort of silly And and to the minister's point, you know, we demean real problems when we when we focus on some of these small things How do you do that? Putting aside the fact that you don't want to do another hostage video to prove your patriotism. How do you build that bridge? You know, I went through stages with when you talk about social media trolling and I can just speak for myself It started off with anger it went on to Indifference and finally I'm at amusement Because that's the only way I can deal with it Every morning when I go on to my timeline and I'm abused for something or the other either. I'm accused of Of they think that of my orientation or the work I do or my fashion choices or the things I say or the films I make it could be anything when I'm trolled or spoken about and when culture is thrown at me as like This is un-Indian or this is not right. I just now I'm amused now when I'm not trolled I almost feel like something's wrong You weren't provocative enough. I feel I feel like oh my god. Why is nobody abusing me this morning? Something's got to be wrong So and I think the only way for me to deal with it is like I can't validate it And I'm certainly not I don't plan to be tolerant to this intolerance If it was thrown at my face because sometimes when you are tolerant to that intolerance It's it's Misconstrued as validation and I think that is something that I would not want to kind of communicate in any form So what I can do is amuse myself by and you know people say oh you can block them I don't like to block them. I like to read I'm kind of I'm kind of like I like that kind of self-inflicted torture Sometimes it kind of grounds me in a way. It makes me believe that you know It's good to be abused once in a while. My mother was very kind to me all her life So was my father. I was the only child. I was kind of indulged and spoiled So it's toughening you up a little bit. I've been raised. I've been raised by Have I completely but the rigid world of social media and I'm okay with it because I know that they're lonely people and they don't know Better it I do have a question from the audience How does social media technology hinder or improve a culture's capacity to practice the necessary Tolerance for others to understand each other It's a it's a very astute question because you're covering all all sides of it But one would argue at the in the beginning of social media when you were still studying this It probably sounded like a good idea probably sounded like oh now we're all gonna be able to talk to have this conversation Freely, I'm not a hundred percent sure I see that today. No, no, not at all Oh, but okay, but then I can take the other side because I really want to defend Because I also think that we need to take the hard way. I mean the technology Gives us so much possibilities not at least the people living in still in developing countries where the social media is the only Channel to to have contact with the world and to speak out what's happening in their neighborhood So even though there comes a lot of hate rich and the problems with social media with Twitter with Facebook with everything I think we need to Develop tools to battle the problems with the technology and the social media because in itself I would defend it and every day because it I think it's fantastic, but you know one thing I found is When I would talk with people they would be open. I'll give you an example one guy who opens the book and he When I asked him I was back there a few months ago. Well, what do you think about Trump? Is there anything that disturbs you? It was hugely enthusiastic about Trump at first time. He said well What disturbs me about Trump? Where do I begin? He says okay, but I look at his Facebook page You know social media and it's just slam and he's he's it's like a proclamation He's tough and so he's pro-trump in his social media. Yes. I told you there are lots of things It's not and and so we have to really get you're right to get skills. I'm not forgiving Facebook up, but wow And no wonder. He just looks so tougher. I have a question for all of us. Were we born tolerant? Were we born I'd say I guess yes tolerant I mean, do we have moments of intolerance in ourselves that we somehow? Decide hmm, maybe not. I don't think What as long as I was fed I was I'm not a scientist and I'm I'm barely a musician, but but Listen, I'm just wondering I'm thinking of what goes on in our brains During the day when we were younger and how we may have changed in our views over the years and and how it's a Complex process to get to the point of saying I am this I'm a homophobe And and it's also complex To get out of that process, you know, so I think in some ways But maybe tolerance is connected to to context Brecht say said first Bread then moral I said maybe it depends on where we are in life and what and under what Context will leave interesting tolerant or not. I think in a way Empathically children Grow down. I think they start by being very tolerant very empathic. They they They feel sorry for the dog and the cat and the goldfish and then they learn how not to feel sorry for Just a goldfish and I think in a way We we start off okay if you're we're fed but if you look at the US election if you look at brexit if you look at influences in various European elections over the last five years the to your point the Economic and financial struggles the struggles to one's prosperity Have been fairly directly correlated to an increase in Intolerance and to some of these I know you don't like to use the word cultural wars So it I don't know and I would have to go back and study this But are we happy or are we less intolerant when we're fat and happy when we're fed when we're not struggling for the basics? When we're not anxious About the base. We're not yes. I mean you can be rich and anxious If when we're not humiliated When we're not fearful Yeah, that's it fear is a huge huge huge part of the weaponization of culture Because and since Davos talked so much about the incredible changes that are happening and will happen Fourth Industrial Revolution all of this so change is with us For a huge for very long time a lot of people are afraid But then we're back to trust about the green spot Yeah, no, you see this conversation. It's going all right. I Was really worried it wasn't gonna work out Back to your to your picture because let's put that up if we can if I can ask the control room Because I was thinking now with what would you say because I was thinking what does this tells us then? Because then we back to this screen where economics Politics and culture meet because then we need to invest in culture in cultural freedom We need to defend our artist even more and we need to put those leaders politicians like me who does who only speak nice words Like I do now you need to check me up that I'm really doing it also for real because otherwise I am not Creating the circumstances that artist and the culture needs to be that green spot. Well, I would say that it's I'm sorry for it into a note. I was gonna say that I think You know, it's all great to say we should have more culture more artists and whatever. I think everybody Needs to find ways better ways to work together that includes artists It's really easy to sit in a group of any One, you know group of people whether it's pop politicians business people or artists to say, oh nobody else understands and That's not good because because if you aren't gonna be in that green spot you really need to understand the frames of thinking of Another person from another discipline from another because otherwise you're not gonna have you're gonna be using The same words that will have different meanings. You got to build a lot of these bridges Definitely not I think let me go out to the audience. We have mics here somewhere. I believe Let me see where we have them where we have microphones. All right, there we go We've got a microphone over there. Just show me your hand. There we go right here in the Middle of the second row and then over to where you are closer. We'll just pass that mic over to you thank you for this and Mr. Mala if you're barely a musician, I'm barely human so Get that on the table. Wow. You actually look quite human Ah Intolerance My work is to end violence against women. I Don't know how to be tolerant of Somebody beating a woman and I am not anxious and I am not fearful I'm just pissed off that it is still happening and I don't know anybody who could convince me to be tolerant About people who insist on beating up women and children. I if one of you can tell me how to do it I'm happy to do it, but I don't know how to find tolerance in that But that's against the law. Yeah, there it comes to I mean when I was speaking about many places when I was speaking about being very Tolerant it was to the line when it's against the law then places. It's not against the law But it should be human that no no human should be about domestic violence. So this is a great example. This is a great example of Taking your work, which I think when you talk about it, we all believe we all want to do what you did be able to turn off our alarms and build those bridges to empathy what This is an interesting point because in some places it's absolutely illegal And if it comes up to the line of being illegal, you don't want to say well, it's okay if you don't really beat them You're just a little rough on them We generally don't want to be tolerant of a sentiment a sentiment of violence toward women and to your point about the Me Too movement it isn't engendered in that right if you have a fundamental disrespect for women It's going to lead to all sorts of things from the from harassment all the way possibly to violence So how do you deal with that? How do you deal with not wanting to be tolerant of something that you think is just going down a bad road, right? I totally Get it what you're saying empathize with it. I think the answer is we need two channels of activism and One of the channels is to Obey uphold the law and just stop that behavior and the other channel is Exemplified by some work done by men Against violence against women for example it's an Oakland base group and what they do is go around and talk with men who are violent with women and There's some psychologists that have found some amazing things that They the man might say oh, I just got mad, you know Actually, what happens is there's some rehearsal. He's driving his truck home. You know, it's been a terrible day He's worried about losing respect from the other guys in the in office He's about to take it out on his wife and he's thinking oh, she didn't cook her scramble date good as well this morning So he's rehearsing the violent act and then in accent. Okay. Well, so this guy this group is going around Talking to men And helping them get themselves. So you've got two channels of activism not one Always get a response from you all that we have people on the ground We are including the men and boys in the conversation and when they're in the room, it's okay No, it's theoretical. Yes. I shouldn't hit my wife and we go home I'm the mother-in-law. I sing she didn't do this and she didn't do that and now the man He hasn't read ours to damn thing. He just doesn't want mom on his ass. Oh god. Sorry Answer to go back to even what you you said about like, you know how we born tolerant Actually, I'm a parent now and I have twins were nearly a year old and I think that they they they're born intolerant to many things They are lactose intolerant then have you ration tolerant intolerant and I think that is of course a technicality But I think what what even you ma'am are talking about it really talks about Parenting and I think what children see their fathers do they grew up to being those men and it's a vicious cycle So I think what is very imperative is to actually counsel parents in countries from a very young age Because the ideologies the theories the thinking the beliefs all of that is what designs men and women to be eventually So if the culture has to be the culture has to be adequate correct Rightful humanitarian parenting and I think that therein lies an adequate solution and added to the schooling Proposes if before the woman says yes, she could say do you think you have the right to hit me? I think we could fix a lot of it. Yes, right. Oh, that's let me take this question from gentlemen right at the end here They're just gonna Okay, there we go. You got a mic there. Yes. Thanks. You could identify yourself, please sure Gregory Warner from NPR Thanks a lot for this panel and your time fascinating discussion so a key idea that all of you've been talking about is this idea that Our cultural differences are not as important They're not as sharp as in the public sphere as we make them out to be and they're small and that There are more important things that we should be talking about, you know that these are a distraction from the real issues But it feels to me like that's not I mean at least In terms of the countries that are represented here. That's not how most people feel More and more cultures being debated now, maybe they're wrong to debate it Maybe they're debating it wrongly, but I guess it feels often that the culture is a shorthand for something deeper value differences And so I'm curious from the panelists any any specific examples where you've seen not just individual examples of tolerance, but The weaponization De-weaponized, you know where it's actually de-weaponized on a grander scale. Maybe not the whole country, but That's a good question I'm gonna ask the panelists to limit their responses to 30 seconds just because we're at the end of the the circuit But I think it's a fantastic question I Haven't quite comprehended the question entirely, so I think some people should I think that's one example of where it's where it's worked Where where you've seen the de-weaponization of culture, right? Do you have anything to say to that? Yeah, I think that may be the fundamental problem. We don't we're not proving with examples to separate things. I think you're right that culture Is something in itself because it's a basis of honor and that's really a bottom line for for much of life at the same time Culture can be used to Displace people's feelings for example and in my work the People I came to know thought that blacks and women were cutting ahead of them in line for good Jobs because of federally mandated affirmative action programs. They were mad at that whereas in fact Automation is what really is the the big thing Cutting in line for these folks So that's an example of displaced culture. I have to wrap this up It is we're out of time I really tried to convince the World Economic Forum that we needed two and a half hours for this And we really do I cannot thank you enough It is such an important conversation that we've had and as yo yo said you you all Individually bring so much diversity to the the topic and it is the topic of our time So I want to thank you for the work that you've all done I want to thank you in the room and those of you out there who have joined us on the livestream on the internet For your participation and if I can just ask that we keep this conversation going because this is probably the issue of our time Thank you all