 Perfect. So I'll go to the policy reading of the Linux Foundation on Trust Policy. Linux Foundation Missings involve participation by industry can pass those and is the intention of the Linux Foundation to conduct all of its activities in accordance with applicable and trust and competition laws. It is therefore extremely important that attendees at dates and missing agendas and be aware of and not participate in any activities that are pre-visited under applicable U.S. state, federal, foreign, and trust and competition laws. Examples of types of actions that are pre-visited at a Linux Foundation Missings and in connection with Linux Foundation activities are described in Linux Foundation Trust Policy. If you have questions about these matters, please contact your company council or if you are a member of the Linux Foundation feel free to contact Andrew of the GASME of the Grove LLP provides legal counsel to the Linux Foundation. Hyperledger is committed to creating a safe and welcoming community for all. For more information, please visit our hyperledger color of conduct. So welcome everybody. This meeting we're going to have a very special guest Rebecca Harding from Coriolis Technologies. We're going to talk about sustainability and data. I wouldn't waste much time and we'll leave it on to Rebecca to start his presentation. I remind you all the importance of being music while Rebecca is going to present. Rebecca. Thank you very much and thank you very much for inviting me to this session. I'm really privileged and I hope what I say is going to be of interest. I aim to talk for around 40 minutes and then because we're a relatively small group if there are any questions or any points that you'd like to raise do please do please ask through the chat. I'm going to share my screen because I have a presentation and if you just bear with me a second. So I wanted to talk about sustainable rebound reason why I've called this sustainable rebound is because we're coming through a pandemic now. We're beginning to see if you like the green shoots of recovery creeping through in a lot of the data. But I think it's an economist but also somebody who studies world trade and world trade finance. The big thing that's coming through for me at the moment is the fact that we shouldn't be going back to business as usual. After the last financial crisis I think if you look at what happened we all said during the financial crisis things have to change. Things have to get better. We need a new business model. That process through the immediate aftermath of the last global financial crisis and up to if you like the COVID pandemic didn't change anything and in fact what did happen was we saw increased economic nationalism. We saw increased competition between states and what's happened of course is that that has actually created a point now where we have another opportunity to change things. And what I want to argue today is really that sustainability is something that the digital community can care about. Something that the digital and data community should do something about because the problem at the moment for banks and for trade finance providers generally is that there's too much information out there and not enough clear intelligence and thought. So let's have a think first about what happened to trade in 2021, in 2020. The short answer is that not much happened in the long run and that's the problem. The risk is that we go back to business as usual. Yes, there was big drop in the volumes of trade. So the World Trade Organization and the IMF estimate that there was around a 5% drop in volumes. That's nowhere near the 9% that we saw during the global financial crisis. The Coriolis data says well it was around 18% in terms of a drop in values but by the end of the year we looked like we were coming back to somewhere approaching normal again. So 18% drop in values. We also had massive deflation. We also had currency volatility. So taking all of that into account, well trade actually looked like it was back somewhere near normal by the end of the year and certainly coming into 2021 with the rate at which things are picking up. Yes, we've got supply chain disruption. Yes, we've got one or two pockets where things aren't working properly. But the problem is that we could just slip back into our business as usual regime. What has happened over the last year though is that there's been a sea change in the way in which people are thinking about trade. It's actually altered the way we're looking at the role of banks, the role of trade finance professionals because the crisis itself, apart from this short term issue of trade falling back, the crisis itself made us all look at what was actually going on. We have more time in front of our computer screens. We could see that a lot of what was happening was actually happening before the pandemic struck. So I've already talked a little bit about competition between states. We now have as a dominant theme of world trade and we've seen that with the G7. We will see that with the G20. Trade wars actually having a big impact on the way in which we're formulating strategies towards trade and where trade sits in foreign policy terms. We've also got supply chain disruption and we're seeing that in the semiconductor sector, but we're also seeing it in vaccine nationalism and the way in which vaccines are being distributed around the world. Some parts of the world getting good supplies of medical equipment, PPE equipment and vaccines, other parts of the world definitely not. And this is something that in terms of sustainability is something that the trade sector really should be thinking about all the time. The other thing that's happened during the crisis and this is something that we've seen over the last 18 months in particular, but was also a major theme during the conferences when we used to all see each other of the past five years, is a discussion around digitization. I don't need to tell this audience just how important digitization is. We're beginning to see ways of shortening decision making, widening access to parts of the trade community, particularly in the small and medium sized sector, in emerging economies that are now reachable because there are digital processes out there that will enable them to participate. And a lot of that, the big risk again, is that everything it becomes non-standardized and we increase the amount of digital islands. I think what's happened over the last 18 months is that people have begun to realize we can't do that anymore. We've got to have standardized processes and we've got to be doing all of this together. So the fourth thing that has really accelerated during the last 18 months is the theme of today, which is sustainability. Sustainability means not having trade boards. It means not competing. It means having a multilateral approach to what is a planetary problem. It's not something that is just Chinese or just American or just German or just British. It's something that affects every single person on this planet because resources are becoming depleted, people are being treated unfairly. We have to think about decent work because there's not enough of it around the world. And sustainability is something that we really need to think practically in terms of being the thing that trade by itself can deal with. And let me explain why. When I first started studying trade in detail around 12 years ago, I was really struck by the role that trade played in multilateralism and in terms of the way in which we could think about decent work, jobs for all opportunities. Over the last 12 years, what's happened is we've become less generous with our rhetoric around trade. We started talking about competition and strategic competition. But if we go back to the basic benefits of trade, all those years ago, trade should be about increasing opportunities. It should be about economic development as well as economic growth. It should be about solutions for emerging economies that are appropriate to those emerging economies. That's what we as trade professionals believe we are doing. It's not about exploitation. It's not about human rights abuses. And it's certainly not about climate destruction. So in other words, sustainability should be used almost synonymously with trade or certainly in conjunction with trade. And what we're beginning to see is that trade is beginning to come under a regulatory and compliance agenda that means that there's a lot more confusion around what sustainability means. And I think there's a real risk, and this again will be one of the big themes of this talk, there's a real risk that as we move more towards sustainability disclosures in the EU, the UK and the US, we start to get more of a compliance driven move towards sustainability and less of an opportunity driven and incentivization driven move to sustainability. So at the moment, you could argue that trade finance is almost the foot soldiers, the boots on the ground in the new war, which is on sustainability and making trade sustainable. And my question for today and for everyone listening really is, can we build back better? Let's hope so. And let's hope that what I say gives you some idea of how we might do that. So I think it's fair to say that trade finance links everything together. Sustainable trade, as I've already said, is absolutely key. So one of the things that we've done in Coriolis and I can demonstrate our data to you at a later stage if we have time. But one of the things that we've done is we've looked at all of the products that are traded all the way around the world and we've mapped them against whether they meet sustainable development goals positively or negatively. And what we found is that for the top 20 countries around the world, for every five million pounds worth of goods that are traded by the top one million aligned with positive sustainable development goals and four million do not. In other words, unsustainable trade outranks sustainable trade in a ratio of four to one Cargo ships by themselves contribute between two and three percent to global emissions and 18 percent to overall pollution. The sustainable development goals that I've talked about that matter the most for work and employment and economic development don't even feature in the top 10 trade flows. So we're looking at something in trade terms that that should be addressed and should be addressed very quickly. It's fair to say everyone is talking about it. Everybody is looking at how to implement taxonomies, how to make their trade more sustainable, how to make their decision making and their credit allocations more sustainable. And the problem when everyone starts talking about it is you get a proliferation of research, of metrics, of money going into all of these things. And let's just have a look at the numbers that I've put here. In the U.S. alone there's 17 trillion dollars worth of assets under management in sustainability related investment funds. That's ballooned over the last three or four years because suddenly everyone is wanting to have a little piece of sustainability. Globally it's 30 trillion in terms of assets under management. That's nearly twice the size of the global trade finance sector. Trade finance really needs to catch up because we should be doing this. We should be doing this automatically. And there are ways, but the problem is that because it's being bunkered in a compliance framework, there are a lot of difficulties with how we go about it. So there are changes that are already happening. But let's avoid greenwash. I think this is the most important thing. EU sustainability disclosure reporting. A lot of sustainability in EU frameworks, including the taxonomy, which is being agreed and has been agreed. All of this is about green and climate change protocols. Nothing wrong with that. But we have to make sure that we're talking about income, that we're talking about human rights, that we're talking about decent work as well. The EU has done a lot in terms of its taxonomy. I'll talk about that in a little bit more detail in a second. It's done a lot in terms of its taxonomy to enable the measurement of sustainability. But again, it's all about green. It's not necessarily about other areas as well. The UK sustainability disclosures, those are similar. The US has very much along a climate change route with its cross-border carbon tax. Interesting thing happening there recently with the United States in terms of how it's trying to build back better. Its supply chain review for the first 100 days in Biden's administration, its supply chain review is actually prioritising human rights abuses or addressing human rights abuses and sustainability in a more social sense within supply chains. But you kind of get the feeling that that's a way of isolating China rather than something that's going to apply across all supply chains everywhere in the world. The other encouraging thing is that a lot of the recovery packages that have been put together during the COVID pandemic have actually had sustainability criteria attached to them. So the EU recovery fund just under a third of the amount is actually committed to sustainability through green bonds. But again, this is all about green. There are other areas of sustainability that are just about the way we run our businesses and the way we treat our people. And those have to be built in as well. So I've looked at the role of Europe just a little bit here. Now the reason why is that the European Union is a regulatory superpower. It accounts for around 32% of world trade and the taxonomy itself is a game changer. Why have I called it happy families? Well, because if you look at the big conflict that we've seen over the last four or five years between China and the United States and the United States and Russia to some extent, which keeps bubbling up from underneath the surface. You can say the United States is trying to outmaneuver in terms of the game of chess, both China and Russia. Russia also plays chess, tries to outmaneuver and disrupt everybody's moves on the board. China doesn't play chess at all. It plays a game called Go and Go is strategic means it can have war and peace coexisting. It's trying to gain influence around the world. The EU in contrast plays a card game called happy families, which I'm sure everyone knows you collect little groups of happy families together. It's not strategic as such. And the EU has only recently realised that it does have that amount of power as a regulatory superpower to make a difference in the sustainability space. And I would argue that that is actually the most important thing that the EU can do. It can actually lay down frameworks because although it accounts to 32% of world trade, it's reaches far wider in terms of where it's importing from, how it imports and the types of products that it imports and the extent to which it can lead the way in terms of the world trade organisation can lead the way in terms of frameworks like the G7 and the G20 as well. So the EU trade strategy is also really interesting because it is a very different perspective on trade compared to the way in which the framework is happening in the United States. So the EU's trade strategy acknowledges the fact that it wants to be autonomous. It's quite assertive in terms of its language in the same way that the one from the United States or the United Kingdom is. But what's interesting about the EU trade strategy is that it also focuses in international labour organisation in terms on decent work and social justice as well. So there's a lot around sustainability in the EU's trade framework that's beyond greenwash. As I said, the EU taxonomy is very focused on climate and biodiversity. There's still a risk and I think what's been clear from these first few slides is that we're seeing big growth in intra-regional trade in terms of some key sectors in sustainability. But a lot of this is still focused around the environment and if the practitioners don't have the tools at their fingertips to be able to move forward in a sustainable way in every sense of the word then it's going to be very difficult to avoid greenwash. I just want to dwell on a few numbers here because I've been looking at intra-regional trade via our Coriolis data. Intra-regional trade between the EU 27s I've taken the United Kingdom out and if you look at what's going on you're beginning to see a pattern that's common across the world which is more intra-regional trade and particularly in these sustainability products so there's a lot of self-sufficiency that's been going on within the European Union. So if you look at electric cars for example it's been growing at a trade in electric cars within Europe has been growing at an annualised rate of 7% since 2016. This is since the Brexit process. Similarly wind turbines nearly 7% 6.5% and in solar panels where there was a lot of Chinese influence for example trade's been growing at 9% since 2016 within the European Union itself so there is a sense in which there's going to be and trade did fall back in 2020 there's no doubt about it but if you look at the patterns that were there before the pandemic this is actually sustainability is a way that intra-regional trade within Europe can grow. But let's go back to this compliance question because unless we talk about this and unless we find a way of dealing with all of this from a sustainable perspective using the digital tools that are at our fingertips this growing regulatory pressure is risky for trade. What it'll do is the more regulations we have the more likely we are to exclude small and medium-sized companies and exclude emerging markets from what we're doing. And let's have a look at legal and regulatory risk first of all the pressure to comply and maintain a license to operate these are the pressures that banks are under at the moment operational risk and what are clients doing what are they doing in terms of rainforest risk climate change risk and what are the consequences in terms of the legal and regulatory framework that the banks are operating in and then in terms of reputation support for environmental and social causes of course it's something that everybody wants of course it's a motherhood and apple pie statement. The countries might be doing something negative. Is there a chance you could put on mute please? Sorry could you please mute yourself we can hear you background. Thank you and there's obviously an opportunity to leverage the MESG profile in terms of reputation corporate social responsibility but this has to change behaviors this isn't corporate responsibility anymore so these are the risks that a bank is facing a trade finance provider is is facing and the problem is I remember sitting on a committee a few years ago or a presentation a few years ago when a bunch of lawyers were talking and they said oh well we we're going to find it really difficult to measure sustainability and it's just going to become another thing another check checkbox exercise a box sticking exercise and it's just going to add to the compliance nightmare that we have that doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing it it means that we have to find a technological way of solving that problem and here is the problem there's no easily accessible and complete data set up to this point to date to support commercial banks so there's nothing that's simple out there the more I dig into this the more I realize that the problem we've created for ourselves is actually that there's just too much information and getting all of this in one place and taking it down to a solution that is really simple and obvious is is something that needs to happen now I have a huge advantage here I'm an economist so I'm very used to reducing things down for their supply and demand and their product basics but let's have a look at what the problems are for banks at the moment companies are currently not required to report by ESG by law so the data is patchy so until that actually comes in where a company is required to report and there are changes that is beginning to happen in across the EU and the US and the UK it is beginning to happen but the benefits of reporting aren't clear so there's no incentivization there at the moment there are one or two green bonds there are one or two credit incentives out there beginning to emerge one or two banks beginning to put this into their framework but the process but the benefits are still not so widely known that companies do it automatically and this is part of the problem there are supply side incentives there are as I said a one or two credit incentives out there that can solve the problem but the problem is that there's no standardized or default process for allocating ESG scores and that's the biggest one which is that we we don't have a standardized digital automated an independent way of doing this at the moment that's going to enable us to take this through in a standardized and uniform and autonomous way so it means that the net the it's almost a vicious circle the incentivization mechanisms are always going to be weak until we've created a digital solution to this and it means all of us working together it's not just blockchain it's not just it's not just data solutions it's everybody working together so let's unpack it there are three ways and this is the problem that Coriolis has been trying to solve if you like so I'm going to talk a little bit now about our our solution you can understand shipping and logistics through trade flows and a lot of the data that I've collected has been about in in this present together in this presentation has been about the shipping and logistics flows that we see in our data so we can understand if you like the the the likelihood that a country overall it has a sustainable approach to its trade so we can look at the regulatory framework but we can also look at physically what comes into the country and goes out of the country or region and what's traded in terms of sustainable goods in order to understand the propensity if you like of a country to become more sustainable second thing we need to do is understand the business and its trade and its esg behaviors now that means looking not just at the company in terms of the eu taxonomy but also understanding this third thing which is the product and its components and so if we can unpack all of that and if we can boil something down to a very simple solution which ultimately is the product because we can identify trade flows by product and we can identify what companies are doing in their trade focused by the product or the service then that helps us enormously understand exactly the sustainability and supply chain behaviors that that are out there so these really what we did was we boiled down and I mean it's we boiled everything down from a from a sustainability point of view from all the complexity that's out there including how many pieces of rubbish you recycle and so on and so forth and how your sustainable reporting goes if you boil it down to the very very very simple basics what we need to know here is actually more about more about the the product and the HS code and the product that's traded and if we can know that then actually we can map that as we've already done to sustainable development goals we can map it to trade in things that shouldn't be happening meaning that we can provide a country a supply chain and a product level indicator so let's have a look at how this works let's have a look first of all at Tropical Harboard it's one of the one of the big areas of concern so the way in which Coriolis goes about looking at Tropical Harboard and we can only look here at countries the way in which we go about looking at this is to look at the difference between what a country says it's reporting officially in its statistics exporting in its statistics and what it's actually reporting when you mirror the data on a trade flow so instead of looking at the USA's trade with Brazil we look at Brazil's trade with the USA and look at the reporting differences between those two numbers and if there is a big difference and you can see for the USA here in in in terms of in terms of oak you can see here that actually the USA is under reporting what are exports and everywhere else there's a big difference so Denmark you've actually got nearly 600 difference between what it says it's doing and what it's actually doing Canada over 200 percent France nearly 100 percent Germany round about 65 percent you can see that all of these countries actually in terms of in terms of in this this figure here is in terms of oak it's actually creating a big difference as some of the biggest economies in the world are actually over or under reporting the amount they trade or misreporting anyway suggesting that there's a huge amount of illegal trade and this divergence figure gives you an idea of how how the countries themselves see their own trade and if you look at different sectors this is untreated oak the graph is for untreated oak but if you look at tropical hardwood there's always bigger divergences in in exports rather than imports because of the tariff regime Vietnam and Indonesia which are two major culprits barely report i mean you get exponential differences between between what they say they're doing and what they're actually doing when when you mirror the data the biggest culprits in tropical hardwood are in emerging markets in Asia but interestingly in the developed world in tropical hardwood Germany and Austria aren't doing very well at all so Germany is actually the divergence on exports is around about 170 percent which is colossal so you can see in terms of just a general indicator of what's happening at a country level if we go down to this product and look at some of the things that are happening the consequences of trade finances that unless you can match to these very detailed sector levels there's almost inevitably going to be a process of misalignment of of of what's being financed so it's almost inevitably going to be financing stuff that shouldn't be financed we need this data to understand what's going on let's have a look at second hand clothing and this is one of my favorites we have a worrying growth in trade in used clothing and the united kingdom is one of the worst over the last in fact in terms of its rate of growth it is the worst if you look at the period of time between 2014 and 2020 UK's trade in illegal clothing imports of illegal clothing of second hand and used clothing have grown by over 20 percent if you look in terms of exports as well China is also exporting large amounts of used clothing as well if you look at these figures there's a huge amount if you literally the rag trade going on around the world and what was really interesting was when I looked at this data on our systems when you look it's actually the 2020 figures that have grown most substantially so during the COVID pandemic where we might have been locked down in terms of what we were doing we were buying cheap second hand or non-recyclable clothing all the way through there was an exponential increase even though trade everywhere else in a lot of other sectors went down so this second hand clothing this sort of cheap non-recyclable clothing is a real issue for the trade sector and it's something that we need to be watching so this just tells you a little bit about what's going on you can see as well that the countries that are at fault here and growing most they're all developed nations so we're importing loads of this stuff and the countries that are exporting China, Vietnam we need to be watching those particular trade flows in order to see where we might be financing something that is not necessary compliant with sustainability I want to move into something that's a little bit more positive though can we also change the way we do things not just about compliance but can we also change the way we do things if we can provide a passport type approach to a transaction then what we can do is give an ESG score to every single contract every single product every single relationship meaning that if we can do this across the whole world and for every single transaction then it could transform the way in which we price trade finance because we could start to bring in all of these different types of incentive now the problem here of course is that the world's really big trades really big you handle billions of data points at any one point in time so we have to be looking at a digital solution to this it has to be automated and it has to be independent because it can't be fixed by the companies themselves but if we can do this what do banks need to know they need to have product and transactions level ESG scores they need to know company ESG status akin to an AML or KYC the EU taxonomy does a lot of that they need to know the supply chain ESG status and then obviously the country as well so again taking it to the level where we can actually start to measure things it's that product and transaction that matching of products every single time that makes this the very simple thing that we should start with it's crazy to even try isn't it well my answer to that and Coriolis's answer to that is always no never never try boiling the ocean let's take it down to something very very very simple we can map products to sustainable development goals on our website you'll see how we've done this for the top 20 trading nations the ones that are positive the ones that are negative against sustainable development goals it immediately means that because we have mapped the HS codes which are the goods that ever the codes that every single exporter has to have and every single importer has to have against their product as their trading because it goes through customs and excise that has to be tracked that is tracked so that's a uniform measurement the second uniform measurement is the United Nations sustainable development goals we can map all of this and we can score it according to their negative or positive impact on sustainable development goals now I've put I've put some links there because of time I won't go through and demo now but if anyone's interested at the end of the session I can do but then we can also take that product level and that product level scoring and a match to sustainable development goals and because we've got the product level information we can also match to dual use goods in other words goods that are used for sustainable goods that are used for military or civilian purposes bill of lading data and Coriolis has access to bill of lading data as well as trade flow data around the world gives the product codes so at a company level and a supply chain level if we have those product codes we can match them and then we can match the company and score the company for every single aspect of sustainable development and that then becomes very powerful so it's a mind-numbingly simple process that we have here it's simply to match the product or the service by in terms of what it's doing to either dual use goods or sustainability through sustainable development goals it's uniform it's standard it can't be gained by the company and what we've done here is develop a product which actually scores the business automatically from outside by checking for governance things so it checks every single company for governance it checks every single company for whether their directors are sanctioned whether the company is sanctioned what currency it's trading in whether its website is valid is valid or not or prone to fraud but then most importantly of all it provides a score for sustainable development and dual use goods it's automated and it doesn't need any intervention from the company at all so it's something that banks can actually use now this is a Coriolis score actually 313 the maximum score we can get is 330 but if you look the reason why down here I've got lower scores for Coriolis is because the company address doesn't quite match Bureau Van Dyke and we couldn't find ourselves in one of the other company databases so we need to go back and check that but it gives an automated idea of the sustainability of a company and it can be taken down to every single transaction automated in exactly the same way so we've scaled this we've taken it through the world is our cosmos we call our sustainability ESG monitoring tool cosmos and this so what we've done is we've scaled this whole approach from the product to the company to the supply chain to the country we've started working on this with the UK we can see where the most sustainable suppliers are country-wide we can see where the most sustainable supply chains are Andrea will be delighted that Italy is at the top there and we've looked at the most sustainable companies as well so this is just a way of using the product and what the company is doing to score a company and score a supply chain and score a country so just to conclude and then I'll take questions is sustainability another digital island can it afford can we afford to make this another digital island I'd say the answer to that question is absolutely no the solution is in data aggregation and standardization and the best way to standardize something it's obviously through the things that we know not the things that we don't know or the things that we could make up we know about a company's product that data is available in customs and excise data we know that the product code is standardized and we know that the SDGs at a united nations level and dual use goods are also standardized we need to scale this quickly if it's going to work we need a collaborative approach we need to hook up with with digital frameworks and hyperledger excellent and excellent starting points we need to we need to think about e-bills of lading how we include products in those e-bills of lading but it means that we could actually start passporting ESG very soon at a product level for trade finance compliance it's independent that's a prerequisite for the sector and it must be interoperable we have a web-based platform it can be built in through APIs as well the problem is universal we have to work together on this and the problem is universal so is the solution B and thank you very much indeed for listening thank you so much Rebecca it was a very compelling presentation I really enjoyed it I'll leave it to the attendants to to make questions to Rebecca this is a unique chance to to hear from her directly I'm going to particularly enjoy this to stop it because I'm deeply interested in ESG and in climate change and you know we just launched two weeks ago a project which is called breaking silence for coming up together with blockchain based solutions that integrate trade trade finance with other you know disciplines supply chain climate change coming all together for delivery and interesting projects I can see a question there from Thomas that yeah that it should be as simple to understand as the energy efficiencies go absolutely I agree with you completely and the idea that we're working on now is that this is totally simple because it's it's HS code it's related so the advantage of an HS code is that it is a it is a tool that's out there already it's a matching product that's already there so it either is a sustainable matching a sustainable development goal or isn't what zero one and it's if it's matching a sustainable development goal then it's either doing that in a positive way or a negative way zero one so the idea is that if you use already existing frameworks and coding and the EU taxonomy we've looked at that in detail the EU taxonomy actually does the same thing it matches by sector and behaviours to sustainable development goals and says where they think it's improving or or or or damaging so what we can do is then scale that into a score that's very very simple zero one it either is positive or it's negative it matches or it doesn't match and so the idea with all of this is yes it's it's as simple it's intuitive anybody in trade trading products and anybody in trade finance understands the need that this has to be at a contract level and has to be at a at a transactions level that transaction is always associated with a product going across the border that metric is always there so it's desperately simple I mean I'm I'm in in winning the poo terms I am a bearer very little brain I'm an economist and I like reducing things down to their very very very simple levels you start with the product because we know that we start with sustainable development goals because we know that and we can take it out and make it more complicated from there but the basic premise is a very simple one anybody else would like to make questions to Rebecca this is Pascal Endres say blockchain will have a massive impact on trade finance sector within the next years what is your outlook for the next decade regarding implementation of new technologies for the supply chain industry okay I mean I think blockchain is incredibly important as a digital tool within the framework of within the framework of trade finance and I agree it's going to become incredibly important I think blockchain solutions are are most important where it's handling data from the user or from either either on the supply side the banks or the demand side I think the big area where we haven't really started to think about blockchain across any supply chain is from the company perspective rather than the bank perspective and I think one of the things that we're trying to do in Coriolis is actually start to look at the demand side in other words the companies rather than just the supply side because there's this huge I mean the big blockchain problem the big digital problem the big the big problem that the banks have in terms of standardization automation through blockchains and through supply chains is the fact that there is this 3.4 trillion dollar gap in SME trade finance you get you can you can do blockchains with very large very large organizations but once you start getting down to the demand side in small companies like Coriolis like a lot of us around on this call once you start getting down to that type of level it's very very difficult and so we have that gap that 3 that that 3.4 trillion that gap is there because it's market failure so what we're trying to do without solution actually is is inject the demand side into this so that we begin to understand now ultimately we'll be handling so much data that we will need blockchains as well I think blockchain becomes a critical part of that data infrastructure the problem that blockchain has is that the data gets locked in it and we need to be able to find a way of analyzing the metadata within a blockchain to be able to understand because actually that then makes tokens easier it makes digital currencies easier it means that we can start to release all sorts of potential within the blockchain world and into a blockchain universe once we start being able to understand the the metadata within a blockchain and you know as a data scientist that will be my main my main challenge in terms of blockchain over the next five years how do we start using that information for good because with that that's actually what we need to start doing I think blockchain will grow I think it's important but I think what we're beginning to see is data coming into this framework as well and if blockchain and data can work well together then I think I think we have our solution. There's one thing Rebecca I wanted to ask you what about the sources of data you know one of the main arguments with sustainability is also energies as you said how to capture some data take for instance the renewable energies that I see there is how to capture real data the one that is close to reality and how to bring them to blockchain space. I think I think again I'm going to reduce this down to something we can measure rather than something we can't if you are trading let's say washing machines and they're leaving Southampton port in the United Kingdom and they're going to China you know that that washing machine has a certain distance that it's got to travel on the ship to China so you can measure the co2 emissions you can measure the you can measure things attached to that particular that particular product you know the distance you know the type of ship you know all of the you know the information that's in there because you know how far it's got to travel and you know ultimately as well I mean if you you know trade lens for example knows what type of container it is and what type of what type of ship it is as well so I mean all of that is in the bill of lading data it's all there all of that information again if we start with that product level and we start with what's being traded rather than start with the environment because it sounds crazy but but if you start with something you know you can build out to more complicated as measurement techniques improve the problem with trying to understand a planet in another solar system is that you can't actually see it at the moment you know it's probably there or you're trying to understand a black hole it's kind of a quantum problem if you like you know there's something out there we can use artificial intelligence to try and find it but let's start with something that the essence of artificial intelligence is that it starts with intelligence you start with something that you know and then you mirror and then you use like we have done with trade data you mirror to find out the things that aren't happening that's how we know that that actually developed world g20 countries are worse at sustainability than some of the emerging companies when it comes to untreated oak for example it's how we know that um used clothing is a real issue for um for developed countries and I think it's that mirroring process and it's that artificial intelligence we need to build the phrase we can't boil an ocean well the ocean's boiling itself at the moment we don't we don't need to worry about boiling the ocean let's start with something that we can measure and then go out from there and it sounds it sounds it sounds sort of almost glib but um if we start with something we can do then we're more likely to get something up and running quickly we can build from there and then once we're building from there we're going to be able to have a we're going to have a more intelligent conversation about what we need to do next um because there are gis systems I mean if you look at um the work sorry uh the world wildlife fund for nature has um this spatial finance um tool that it's built um if you were the world trade organization the united nations and the IMF and the world bank together you would not be able to build the world wildlife fund for nature's technology system um for for spatial finance immediately but we've started the process of doing that because we know the product we can take it down we can solve that most difficult problem we can then build out from there and I think that's the way we have to go we you know the technology's out there it's a question of taking some time to do it properly there is another question and Rebecca is there from Varagi how to let user trust blockchain seems to raise so many negative news about blockchain I wouldn't say negative news but a little confusion maybe so I mean blockchain crypto um crypto um all of those types of things they're kind of I listen to a consumer program on the radio the other day and they were talking about blockchain and crypto as if it were something that was creeping into your creeping into your living room and you should be very scared of and I was really cross because you're absolutely right it is an issue about getting people to trust blockchain but it's not blockchain they need to trust it's open data and if you can reassure people that actually on a blockchain the user owns their data nobody else can see it I mean it goes back to the point I made about trade lens um you can't see trade lens data you can't see r3 data you can't see uh trade ix data there's nothing boltron data there's nothing there you can't see it um it's owned by the user and I think that is the message that needs to get out actually you know the the issue is about who owns your data and on a blockchain the user owns their data if you're looking at open banking implementation or you're looking at uh pds2 or you're looking at any of these things it's all about data it's not about the technology behind the data so that's where the lack of trust comes in you know if data is um you know the new trade war which to some extent it is um then um you know the the risk at the moment is everybody's saying oh Huawei owns all of all of our data and so we need to take Huawei out of 5g systems and we need to take Chinese interest out of 5g systems but if there are blockchains there actually the user still owns their data nobody else can see it and that's what we need to get out it's about promoting open data it's not about um it's not about promoting the technology it's about helping people understand what using their own data means and I can see a question on on use of data where we get data from so um the days we don't use we we don't use trade lens data um I would love it if we could um we don't use trade lens data we we we've curated our own data so our data comes from national statistics offices it comes from uh bill of lading data comes from a supplier um a supplier of bill of lading data and it's very crude and we clean it and we refine it um it comes from a supplier based based um based in um in Egypt and they have they have bill of lading data actually for 60 odd countries so it's it's not as detailed as some of the bill of lading data that you get for from um from countries uh from companies like IHS or or Pangeva um it's not as detailed but we can infer it because we're matching it against the trade flows that we pick up from the United Nations so we have got um we have got um a data source that we've actually curated ourselves and we've cleaned it and we've harmonized it and it it's monthly um and it goes up to the end of the last calendar month so it's actually better the trade flow data is better the other data um that we're collecting around our Atlas product which is our scoring product and our um our Cosmos product um that data comes from publicly available sources it comes from web scraping it comes from it comes from uh checks against sanctions it comes from checking the product itself against dual use goods and um ESGs sustainable development goals so all of our data is curated ourselves we've been going now for four years before that I ran another um trade trade data company so um the data has been through been through every single possible testing mechanism and we use artificial intelligence to create data where there isn't any so for example Africa the data is absolutely pooling everybody would admit that um and so we this mirroring process this quantum process if you like um we know there is trade happening in Africa once you mirror it and once you begin to build up patterns using other data sources you can begin to create data for countries that aren't aren't in in com trade or or the um international statistics this is not the question Rebecca how will blockchain help fast-moving consumer goods industries um I think the only way that blockchain can help is by providing swift mechanisms to get finance to companies where um where um there's very fast growth um one of the things that happened during um lockdown was that um was that we had a situation where um the money wasn't getting to companies quickly enough because bills stopped being paid and everything kind of shut down and at that point if we'd had more secure mechanisms for being able to get money to organizations more quickly um they'd have been able to keep on growing and I think I think it's really it's it's accelerating the process of access to finance because one of the problems with fast moving any company whether it's consumer goods whatever it is is it's usually younger companies um that are involved in all of this it's usually younger companies that have less track record um and so blockchain is a way of providing that degree of security to those businesses um and reassurance to the banks as well that there's that there's nothing going on there's nothing um no suspicious activity so I think I I don't see blockchain as an enabling tool for currencies I see blockchain as a security mechanism and as a way of providing greater security both to the user and and well to the company and to the banks on the demand and supply side well thank you so much again Rebecca he's running out of questions from the attendance there's a stop us for self as good to hear something perfect Julian are you still there hi hey yes great great thank you Rebecca that was a wonderful wonderful um presentation a lot of learned a lot thank you wonderful thank you very much perfect so if there is any other question I would close the meeting and I would love to thank Rebecca for this presentation we'd love to hear from all from her in the future let's catch up again in two weeks time and thank you so much again to everybody thank you here today with us thank you for listening welcome Rebecca thank you so much thank you and see you soon bye bye bye Julian bye everybody bye