 Hello there, everyone. Hopefully you're still praying for rain and planning for drought. This is Tans Herman, raising land soil health specialist with USDA's NRCS in South Dakota. And I'm here with Luke Perman today. Luke, would you tell us a little bit about your story, where we're at, and your venturing, I guess you might say, into a recognition of needing to plan for drought. Sure. Well, thanks for having me as part of this program. I'm excited to kind of help out whatever way I can, I guess. I guess my background goes back. I grew up on this place and I, funnily enough, I was born during the drought years of the 80s, I guess. So my parents, you know, as they were getting started, you know, with the young family and starting to build the business, they had to deal with some pretty extreme years, not just with drought, but low prices and high interest rates. And plenty of challenges. So I think that the awareness of the need for having a plan was, I mean, that's been part of my life since, you know, since I was born, basically, but you know, more recently, you know, as I have been involved with the ranch, you know, growing up and, you know, after college and everything, you know, I went through some of those drought years, you know, in different capacities as a you know, a kid or a young adult, but probably most, I was the most involved in 2017 with that drought because at that point, I was, you know, had been, you know, here for 10 years after college and was taking on more and more responsibility and that was the first year that I had to kind of come up with the drought plan with Dad's help, of course, and his guidance and insights, but it was kind of my responsibility to come up with the plan in the first place and and then be able to explain it to Dad and, you know, justify why I think we should do what we did and and so that was a really I learned more in that year than probably the 10 years previous as far as how to manage a ranch period but then especially when things are changing and just having to think through all the implications of taking different steps and so so yeah, that was that was the year that I think it everything really kind of hit home and these lessons that I learned up until that point were that was when we put them into practice and If I'm hearing any common themes about what you what you just said or Summaries of what you just said is a this is a business and it will be run as such But it's a family business therefore communication needs to happen and where there's multiple generations involved and and having a real stake in what in the outcomes are We've got to have buy-in and Thirdly, but maybe most importantly when we go back to the first point I made about this is a business is Be aware of all your resources. Yeah, that's how much grass production is there What do we have in the feed yards for haystacks or or other forages? How many animals do we have to feed what classes and all of those things that? Really land on the balance sheet, but so much of it also is do we have the labor do we have a skill sets? Do we have the necessary tools or infrastructure to implement what we are? Probably gonna have to do if it continues to be yeah. Yeah, and and I think kind of along with that. I also recognized I Felt like for the month of May and June I might as well just glued my phone to my ear because I was on the phone all the time with somebody about something whether it was feed or hauling cattle or Health papers or just I mean it was it was just non-stop because it was all new to me You know and and some of these things that we were talking about doing We hadn't ever done before And so there was a steep learning curve on a lot of that But I also recognized as the year went on and especially looking back on that year that there was some big Opportunities that I think I missed that I could have done I could have managed better, you know And not that it I mean I was actually I was very pleased with how The projections that I made and as I said as I put into practice all the things that I had been taught Then I'd learned over over the years It really came out pretty close to what I had planned or projected You know at the beginning of the year But like I said, there were some things that could I could have done a little differently or a little better that would have made Unnoticeable difference, you know on the bottom line Always is Learned anything from the other ranchers we've interviewed in the series is that with every Adversity we learn something. Yeah. Yeah, I suspect you'll tell us more about Some of those things you've learned. Yeah, we go through sure. Will you tell us where we're at? Geographically, yeah, so so we're our places in north-central, South Dakota We're 12 miles or 32 miles north west of Holven But an hour and a half straight north up here and so yeah, that's and we've been kind of Well, we've been on the edge of a lot of the drought You know when you look at the the drought maps, we're definitely in it We're not in the worst of it and but we're just kind of always on that and on that edge You know it seems like it's never that far away where they're either getting it way worse than we are or they're catching a little bit Of rain and so we're sort of in one of the transition zones, I think Yeah So are you noticing some impacts? Yes, we have last year and I Apologize, they don't have the precipitation records fresh in my mind But we we were dry. Well, this is our second open one. We've had we've had hardly any snow at all and so And you know last spring of 21 we didn't have a great deal of moisture We were short and and it stayed You know hot and dry like everybody else until we got to about the third week of August and then we got five or six seven inches rain somewhere in there between the end of August and first of October probably and And we're all thinking whoo the drought broke, you know Oh, here we go and better prepare for you know, a lot of snow this winter Well, then we went into this winter where we didn't I mean, I don't think we had four or five inches of snow all together And this spring we've had half insuring is about it. So yeah, there's definitely we're definitely seeing impacts on Forge production and even things like ground cover and some things like that are kind of Yeah, it's different We'll talk more about that here you mentioned that that maybe ground cover is is decreasing a little bit We're talking about those plant residues that we want in contact with the soil service to Buffer the impact of a raindrop to buffer soil temperatures as the as the spring and summer kick in Because we know biology much like humans kind of like things in that 68 to 72 74 degree range to be optimally effective As well as most and plants are most moisture efficient when the soil is is at that temperature or cooler So what do you think are the causes leading to maybe this this reversal in the amount of ground cover? Well, I mean the biggest thing is there's not new grass being grown to lay down to kind of maintain that You know, that's that's the primary thing and I the other day I was I just kind of drove around and You know visually assessed Some of the pastures about maybe fourth of the pastures that are kind of closer to the home here and It was a noticeable difference depending on when we grazed those pastures last summer and Those that were grazed as the grass kind of went dormant. We'll say in July most notably Those places actually look pretty decent like there's there was a fair amount of cool season grass that grew, you know Sometimes up to seven or eight inches of of new growth after we got that August rain and things kind of kind of changed there during the last part of the summer But the pastures that got used in in like May and June It's like it just stressed that grass a little extra because it was trying to grow But that it was you know struggling anyways, and then we came and grazed it off and And that and then it was dry and that stuff never had a chance to really Recover and even when the rains came in it still didn't grow to the level that the grass that didn't get grazed until July Which seems backwards, you know that to me that that a longer recovery period didn't necessarily Matter yeah What grill stage was it in yeah, and it was grazed Even though the other plants later in the summer were grazed While they were stressed due to dry conditions they had also reached a higher level of maturity more green leaf and subsequently we can presume there was more vibrant root mass enabled to kind of absorb that grazing use yeah, and it just went back to regrowth and Recovery as soon as moisture return. Yeah and I think you know the Ground cover is something that we're always Visually assessing like I'm looking at not only the grass that's growing, but what's it look like on their own and There are places a few places where our ground cover is less and well And it's mostly those places that we grazed kind of early in the spring or early in the summer That didn't have the growth coming back And you know normally those would be the ones that probably kind of be going to you know this time of the year again late Because they've had the longest recovery, but it's actually I've had to switch What my in my grazing plan that I write during the winter time when before the things are you know Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, so so yeah Just some of the rules that we kind of usually think of are kind of out the window this year as far as so You can't replace going out looking Yeah Yeah, you're in this long for the long term right? Yeah here to cash in and out on an annual basis This is a resource that is renewable So long as we take it care, right? We don't we know and we can see this in our ecological site descriptions that NRCS has online is that plant communities regardless of the soils will shift Due to management or lack thereof and and usually when we see a declining trend in In plants, it's to something less desirable than what the native plant species was. It's less productive. It's less palatable It generally yields more water in the form of runoff and less infiltration Which then would support growth, right? So Yeah, I'll take that opportunity to make mention folks that There's a wealth of resources online In fact, you could you could waste too much time looking online for tools and tricks and ideas But what I would suggest is is a reach out to someone like Luke or someone else That's a member of the grassland coalition or one of the NRCS staff people located in your county and asked them What ecological sites do I have on my place if you don't know? and that would give you a comparison point to Look at what do I have right now? Find out what state your pastures are in right now and at least in average setting and then Almost put down some written goals, you know if it's less than than ideal in your eyes then Range management specialists could likely help you develop a plan That could drive things towards what it is that you do want look Here in your neighborhood, you probably have some friends and neighbors And then statewide because I know you have a large community of rancher friends You probably know people who are just flat out of grass There it's not getting started as rapidly this spring as they hoped They maybe took it a little deeper than they wanted to last year and and now they're feeling like they're out of options the hay pile is short or gone and They have our decisions in front of them What what how do you address that? How do you how do you encourage someone like that? Well, I think it kind of goes back to what you're saying about talking to somebody local that knows about You know good management and finding a mentor. I think is a big a really big key because You know, you could go and read a book or read an article or watch some videos and you're gonna just be overwhelmed by all of this information and Some of it, you know might not even apply to your context or there might be some really important things They're missing because of your context. So I think you know Finding that that neighbor that you notice and he still has grass left or he doesn't seem as stressed out about The situation is, you know, the guy's down at the coffee shop or whatever but I think finding somebody that's doing a good job and is is Key and it could be NRCS or you know, or just an agency person that you know that that is well versed in those things It doesn't have to be, you know, a certain, you know, hasn't had to be a wrencher doesn't have to be the agency guy It could be whoever, you know, it's someone who who's plugged into the right resources But I think that's important for two reasons One is if it's somebody local You can't use the excuse while they don't know what it's like out here, you know Because if you're just on a like a Facebook group or something like that They're gonna get advice from all kinds of people that don't know where you're coming from And it's really easy to write it off if it's coming from somebody who doesn't really know your situation and then the other reason is Having somebody local is you can actually talk to them. They can come to your place You can go visit with them like having that just a personal relationship with somebody rather than, you know, an impersonal communication online or whatever There's that adds the human element to it and we need that when times are stressful. So So yeah, and then they can help you figure out what what fits what where you should start because they can They got an eye for for what's going on and I think the other thing that That I would recommend is Documenting where you're starting from and you know take some pictures of You'll find the worst place on the ranch the one that you don't want to go to because you know how bad it is Go go spend half an hour there and take some pictures, you know dig a hole like just familiarize yourself with where you're starting from so that as Progress starts to be made you can look back and remember where you came from But I think another thing that is important is to remember how bad it is if it's that bad Don't don't forget that, you know, okay, it starts raining It's really easy to forget about how bad it was because all the grass is grown You know and then you get complacent and you forget to plan you just let's just not a burning issue anymore But if you sear that into your memory I think that that should be it can serve as motivation for making the necessary changes and saying hey I never want to go back to that feeling and that situation. So, you know, like my parents That was really what drove them to make those plans and to start implementing grazing management practices was they didn't want to go back to that, you know that the day-to-day stress of are we gonna be able to make it through this year and but So they didn't forget but they also didn't document to the degree that they wish they would have so that as they made the changes You know, we don't have a lot of pictures of you know, how bad it was in 1986 And and they wish they did later on so so I think that's that that can serve two purposes there Hopefully it's a long time from now, but The next drought. Yeah, yeah, if you've made changes to your management and recognized triggers and made management decisions Such that you don't leave such a lasting impact on the landscape. Yeah, then yeah, that's that's really helpful speaking about finding someone local a Mentor and it doesn't you know Luke's making a very good point It does not have to be local though if you're for the first time developing a drought plan and have some general concepts and general ideas that you Think will work for your situation Feel free to reach out to any one of the grassland coalition members that are listed here on the website But I think Luke makes a really key point particularly if you need some Need or want some onsite support to show someone something or or just give them a quick drive through tour of the ranch It's just gonna be easier to pull off. Yeah, because they all have working operations as well And it's not as easy to to take two days and they'll make a visit or something like that with drive time and whatnot. So Very very helpful Along those lines to Luke. I hoped maybe you could tell us a little bit about Who is on your team as far as as folks that are impacted by your decisions? But also these could be personal or business Partners so to speak whether they have a stake in in the ranch or not is a little less relevant But who comes to mind when you're making these hard decisions. Well, it's kind of a long list actually As far as people that are impacted by the decisions I make, you know Outside of my immediate family, you know, I got you know, my wife, Naomi and our four kids My parents are involved. So it affects all of us. I've got a couple of employees that, you know They want to know what we're doing so that they you know, it can kind of prepare for it And when we're talking about making big changes to what we have here for livestock or what kind of you know Hey operations or whatever we're gonna do. I mean those things I want to try to keep all of you know all of us on the same page You know very frequently we're discussing what what I'm thinking about and what what we may do and and And I like to get their input because You know, I'm not the only one walking around here. That's thinking about these things and so and you know Like we talked about earlier they're getting their their buy-in and and their criticism or they're you know challenging You know an idea I have to be able to prove it. I have to be able to back up this idea With a reason besides other than I just feel like it, you know, that's what we did last time Or you know, I got to have a sound reason and and they're all good about Asking what that is it sounds to me like you have a management style Yeah, I want it that way, you know, I'm not a And Some people do manage in a way that is a little more, you know top-down and There's nothing wrong with that if they do a good job of it, you know, some people are really good at that I'm much more of a consensus builder type. I guess but but there's other people we have I've got some neighbors that I run sharecals with and I've got another neighbor that I He's he's a partner on our Euling Euling operation and There's been at times of it. There's been other kind of absentee Shareholders or stockholders or whatever in different cattle enterprises So I try to keep all them on the same page so they can make plans accordingly for their financial situation and We run some custom sheep grazing through the summer. So You know plans may affect affect their Logistics of getting sheep here or getting them back back home again Those are the the primary ones I guess wait, then but and I learned this in 2017 is the value of having a relationships and a network of trusted Potential partners either partners or suppliers or buyers or whatever just potential people that we would do business with that I can trust and I can pick up the phone and and they trust me to follow through and whatever I tell them I mean that Really is really helpful Yeah, but when I have confidence that I can send our calves to to this guy that guy or the other guy And all of them will do a good job and treat me fairly and I Don't have to worry about if they're You know feeding them enough or whatever just knowing that I can do that and not feeling like well I'm the only one that can do a good job taking care of these cattle that that definitely makes some of those decisions a lot easier You speak to something we haven't really yet in the series and that's this This deep deeply held stopmanship, you know That I turn loose these animals it may not be done the same way or as much for their benefit the animals benefit as I would like to see and Building that community of like-minded individuals Who also though have their own thoughts and feelings on different topics that you can have a discussion on and even disagree But still remain friends Yeah, yeah, it really is and you know, they bring Knowledge and expertise and resources that I maybe don't have also So there's like I said, there's so many things to learn through other people that you know If it if it just stopped at the learning part of it a drought is is a profitable thing sometimes if you just if you approach it with that mindset that you know There's things to learn and I want to I'm gonna do my best to learn them but but like I said that there's People that that we trust to be in business with and that's Makes that makes like I said this lowers the stress immensely Tell me more about these stalker sheep Because that that's something that isn't as common as it used to be And I'm curious what angles you approach that from and what values are bringing to the ranch. Sure We've been doing this. I think this will be the fourth summer that we've had sheep here and I Like them more and more as far as fitting our resources both from labor and forage resources, so At this point it's still just a custom grazing thing we don't own any of them and that may change in the future but for now it's We're content with with that Initially we brought them in to help with some leafy spurge issues that we were having but just found out that they fit our forage base Really really well better than just cows so Funny enough leafy spurge is a deep-rooted perennial that doesn't seem to be bothered as much by drought So and and a lot of the things that the sheep are eating are not as susceptible to drought the other thing that we try to really target them on is Western snowberry, which you know, I again, I don't see that Visually, I haven't gone out and clipped and weighed anything, which I don't know how you clip away western snowberry It's a lot of stems and the sheep don't eat that but you know That doesn't seem to you does not seem to be affected by drought significantly anyways. So so the sheep have been a really Appears as though a very Flexible or appropriate enterprise to have here, you know and I Know not every you know, everyone needs to understand what they have for forage before you know I wouldn't that's not a blanket statement. Everybody should have a third of their stocking rated sheep You know, it's some some should some shouldn't so that's that's up to individual to decide but But so besides being adapted really well to what we have for forages The flexibility of when they arrive and when they leave again is really nice, too, you know like this year You know if we would had an early spring we could have had an adequate moisture We could have had them here by the end of April first part of May But I call them and say hey, you know, it's We're dry better better hold off until the spurge is ready It's funny that that's what we're kind of Everyone else looking at what their Western wheatgrass is doing. I'm looking at the leafy spurge but so we can push it off, you know a month really easily and For the people that were running them for it doesn't matter to them their shipping used out for six weeks every every year So it's just a matter of which slot we get And then come fall Same thing. It's pretty flexible when they go back and They've even brought us extra sheep in the fall as they're buying lambs and different things Another resource that we had never done anything with before was soybeans double and they're you know Rented some soybeans double from some neighbors and and use some of our own the sheep can go out and utilize that and Do really well on it And so there's just a fit a lot of neat things that way and the labor side of it There's there's herders that take care of them all the time I still have to design the grazing plan and communicate with those guys regularly What we're doing that's been a really good a good fit for us Yeah And and again, you know coming back to the drought part of it these are all plants that are less impacted by drought conditions That the sheep are mostly using you know, I mean, it's just kind of a it's just a great fit in that sense Tell me a little bit about there Still a grazer or they more of a browser well so the the grazing Practices we're using with them generally and it might change a little bit this year, but They're doing daily moves, you know, they just get 24 hours on a while It's actually about 22 hours on a on one paddock and then they're moving so they're They're definitely stripping all the leaves off of the broadleaf plants and the grass. They're just kind of grazing I would say they're acting more like a grazer the way that we're generally using them now If we're just targeting the spurge and we just kind of want to Just get through that stuff as quickly as we can because we want to stay ahead of it Keep it from making seed then they're more of a browser because they're gonna just go pick the leaves off and They don't have to go any lower than that Management style. Yeah, you're operating under with them in those daily moves They they choose to browse they'll go after the broadly Regardless of what it is. Yeah, yeah When I was a really young kid my grandfather and uncle had she but I was too young to really notice or care what they were eating Sure, I didn't realize it at the time, but they were being fairly innovative themselves But I'll need fit in something that Is less common than it used to be. Yeah. Yeah Like I said, I think Leaving the profitability of owning sheep and which from what I hear right now, it's pretty good Leaving that aside, I think just as a as far as fitting the resource It's it's really a good deal and you know, it does provide some cash flow for us through the summer You know, we send a monthly bill for for the grazing and that helps to Pay some grocery bills and whatnot, you know through the summer Yes, yeah Yeah, and we do have flea beetles out on the spurge and that that did help and we put them out about 15 years ago for the first time and they made a difference but not enough, you know, not enough to for us to be content just doing that and But yeah, I mean that and I've done kind of some figures, you know, I if we were gonna spray we'd be looking at, you know, I figure 12 to $14 an acre prorated out over a few years, you know of Expense knowing we'd have to come back and do it again stuff Instead we're probably In addition to our cattle grazing, we're probably adding another 12 to $15 an acre From just from the sheep revenue. So you're looking at a 30 Ish dollars an acre difference in revenue or cost. Yeah, it is and Yeah, it's There's some rough numbers, but even if I'm even if I'm wrong If even that is twice as much as like even if I'm off by a factor of two it's still $15 an acre benefit Yeah, you know, so it's It's definitely worth looking into for people that are interested in that in addition to The stalker sheep How else do you diversify or have flexibility on this ranch to face drought? Sure the the other big part of the thing that we would that we use as a tool of greatest to manage We'll either excess or Forage deficiency is is our yearlings and that's been a relatively new thing also. We started that about 2016 Or maybe a 17 somewhere in there it was We started out with running some steers from you know May through August or September and My paradigm as a growing up with the cow calf deal was that yearlings are just a headache You know, they're the only yearlings we ever dealt with was our replacement heifers, of course And but they were just always I don't know it caused us more stress and the cows ever did it seemed like, you know Yeah, yeah Yeah, they yeah, they circle the fences and they crawl out and all that and some of those things that you know I won't say that they're wrong But part of it was I I think my stockmanship has improved a little bit from back when I thought yearlings was so much of a headache but So I guess we I've got better at managing young animals, I guess as far as handling and that sort of thing but What I've really grew to like about them was how easy they were to move, you know We could move 500 yearlings, you know four miles in a few hours. Whereas if those repairs There's just no way, you know, the cows are going or the calves are dropping back or going back where they came from and just moving pairs Whether regardless of the type of forager we had was just difficult and I I grew to really enjoy how easy it was to manage those yearlings and So besides the logistics of just moving them around our ranch The flexibility of how many do we have? When do we turn them out and when do we market on? really, you know a year like this In the last year, I mean they just it's so much easier to make decisions on those versus pairs So like or a cow just strictly cow calf. So in 2017, we didn't have the yearling So it sorry we started the yearlings in 18. Yeah, because in 17, we didn't have Anything other than our replacement heifers. We ended up sending them to Nebraska to a field lot for the summer Getting a bread and bringing them back and that was a whole host of phone calls and just it was I mean, it works fine It wasn't a bad decision, but it was a lot of work to get them there and back I would say in hindsight that would have been one of those things where I'd find some place in South Dakota So I don't have to worry about that or a health papers and vet inspection and that kind of stuff, but But they're still afraid to build both ways, you know And then with our our cows we After 30 days, we just shipped everything that hadn't right after 30 days of calving. We just shipped everything that they hadn't calved yet Which was good like long term that helped tighten up our calving window for for a while And that was a good decision But it was also stressful going and sorting these cows out as they're calving putting them on a truck taking them to sale We're has been born at the sale barn, you know I mean it was and then and there was pairs that we sold also, you know older pairs and It's just there was a lot of logistics to all to cram all that into the month of May basically end of May 1st Part of June shipping yearlings out shipping pairs shipping red cows I mean it was like I said my phone is glued to my ear the whole time Now contrast that to what we're what we did this year We're only bringing about a third of our yearlings to the place here as restaurants wintered In a feedlots in southern part of the state So we're only bringing a third here later two-thirds Are gonna stay in the yards or get sold which is that's I mean there's an auction six days a week that we could take them to you know, so marketability is easy and Yeah, it's just that the flexibility of those yearlings is huge on here like this Because it's just not a stressful situation to I mean yes The markets are always stressful doesn't matter what you're selling There's there's an element of stress with with volatile markets But as far as the logistics of doing it is so much easier That leads into another question I have is Well two questions before I get to the one that initially came to mind. I want to ask It doesn't seem to me like very many people would have taken on in 2017 the level of management that you did So many phone calls Marketing cows that both have and haven't calved and all of that Some might have gritted their teeth and bought that next truckload of hay if they could find it or whatever It that leads to the second question There must have been a driving factor there and I have a suspicion that it has to do with how you prioritize resources on the Could you talk through that a little bit? Yeah, so I mean it With with all of the things we're doing I guess we try to maintain a biblical perspective on What's important, you know, I mean, you know, our faith is the most important so That's always got to be first and if that's the most important that informs the rest of the decisions from there And so, you know, our you know family relationships is would be the next really You know me as a husband and a father and a son are all like that's the next Category and then and then whatever Material resources we have would come behind those but I guess and then as far as those go I look at him as what's the easiest What's the hardest thing to replace or the easiest thing to replace or how you want to look at it? So, you know, the land base is the hardest to replace It's pretty hard to find anything closer than what's here, you know So we're not gonna, you know burn this place out and then go try to find a different one somewhere So so the land is hardest to replace I would say the forage and is the second hardest to replace because We need a lot of it to feel the animals so either we have to grow it which takes a year You know, it takes a while to grow it or you have to haul it in which is a lot of freight Then it's got to come from somewhere. So so the forages is the second hardest Then the next one would be the livestock You know again there As much as I you know, I like what we're doing genetically They're just cows and we can start over with something else and and maybe be even more profitable I guess, you know, but so the cows again six days a week We could sell them and buy them back again, and then the equipment would be or you know, whatever other resources those are even easier to Liquidate or replace or whatever we need to do that makes a lot of sense When we assign a priority level that's pretty firmly rooted especially when it comes in in ranch resources land The year's production forages and livestock and livestock themselves and even have a priority order Which you've already discussed a little bit. Obviously the cow herd is probably takes first place Yeah, that they'll be cold last or you'll get deep into them last But those yearlings in the sheep they take their place on the chopping block pretty early. Yeah when it comes to disaster planning and that Could come from any number of sources I think Jim mentioned it was drought planning is really risk management or disaster planning It could be if you're winter grazing 100 inches of snow It could be flood. It could be drought. It could be grasshoppers Hail any number of things could cause you an unexpected Shortage of four yeah, and sometimes in the blink of an eye at least with drought These are usually slowly worsening conditions, and we should be slowly adapting. Yeah You be rapidly adapting in some cases if we if we're over stocked, but if we're appropriately stocked to start with these are things that can happen Over time without degrading the resource. Yeah, it's funny You mentioned, you know the hundred inches of snow and that what I have actually found that winter grazing and Planning for that is more stressful than planning for a drought because like you said winter can start in a day And drought we have a lot of lead time usually to make adjustments and build a plan But I can remember a few times where we had you know Not even a lot of snow But then it warmed up and then it froze again and now all my corn stalks that I had planned on grazing for the next 60 days Are all under a half an inch of ice or whatever and and now we got to switch gears yesterday You know into a different a different mindset, but I think that's But that builds in just that forward-thinking mindset of you know planning for either a drought or a forage deficiency or a forage, you know Excess and and then being able to flex our management to meet that Yeah, it's not really easy to when you've got a really good year and more grass than you know what to do with It's not as easy to do that with with cows and calves or as inexpensively Is you know bringing in some either going and buying some yearlings or bringing in some stalkers and that someone else owns and customer grazing them Or some entirely other species of animal that still serves a grazing purpose I think one thing that kind of fits into that Flexibility is not feeling like we have to own every hoof that's on the place because that takes a lot of emotion out of it I even think about like this year that all but a few of our stocker yearlings are 150 miles away It's really easy for me to say let's keep them there for another week Because they're not I'm not watching my hay pile get smaller and Or or you know them reaching through my corrals trying to get that little piece of you know the spirit green grass It's like it just takes a lot of the emotion out of it Even more so You know like the sheep coming later. They're not my sheep. I don't even have to worry about the feed bill I just have to say I have to just prioritize our resource base and say We don't we can't bring them here until then Yes, it affects my you know my pocketbook because that's You know the the income starts a little later than I like but It's it's different than if I owned all the animals and I'm having to make all these decisions because well, okay There if we're not gonna turn them out. What are we gonna do? We're gonna feed them or you're gonna sell them You know, what are we gonna do? So I think having at least One grazing animal on your place or one grazing enterprise that you don't own all of it Makes it easier to to get out of and that's where the the relationships come in, you know and Having some of you can trust Pay the bills on time to follow through with what the agreement is, you know, that's you can't you can't even put a price on that really Again, I see the community the importance of communication between you and The livestock owner being incredibly important And you mentioned it too having a trusting relationship where communication goes both ways is Critically important and you might not get a right the first time. I think I did but if you go Well, I did it's the first the first year we ran yearlings I didn't know on any of them and the performance was not what we had hoped Or not what the owners had hoped and some of it was because of a couple of mistakes I made which we were able to kind of remedy the situation but Again going back to, you know, learning and and as a cow growing up with cow calf Average daily game is not something that we really were I mean the calves through on the cow is whatever, you know And our replacement heifers. We don't we don't worry too much about Cost again or rate again or whatever as long as they got bred. We were happy. Well now when there's somebody else that's got you know yearling steers that They're and especially somebody that can run a calculator and saying hey, we got it. This is what we got to get Yeah, and so so they're gonna come in and say, you know, hey, this is You know, you made a mistake when you're you know, you're you're shipping procedure Costs us too much shrink or you know, you're grazing that you did here in this part They didn't gain anything during that time, you know Just those kind of things like oh, I never I never knew that I never thought of that and so now that that was but Because there's somebody that that we trusted and they still trust us and you know, we're able to make things right That didn't we didn't burn any bridges even though I made some mistakes We're able to still do business together and and they get it right the next time So yeah, well, that's an opportunity to plug the mentor network again If you're going to win when drought breaks if you are going to diversify your your operations income streams Luke or someone else on the mentor network may be a good contact to make Just to pick up some of those lessons learned so that you don't have to walk through the same fire that they did figuratively It seems more and more and Luke you and I are roughly the same age More and more in our lifetimes. It seems like Agricultural commodities are traded on a global scale So so what's happening in Ukraine right now has an impact here and not that it didn't always But we're aware of it on a daily basis when you watch or listen to the news or read the news Markets change daily the weather Is anybody's guess even though we have great forecasting models that tell us this summer is looking to be warmer and drier than normal How do you make decisions for for your family business in this environment? Well, I think a lot of it is Kind of a lot of things we've already talked about as far as maintaining flexibility and not Pigeon holding yourself into we have to market these animals at this time and anything else is a disaster or So it's a maintaining flexibility on when you can market Products whether it's animals or feed or whatever and then also having a Diverse array of things that you can market and this is something I feel like It's easy to get overwhelmed with like it's it's a lot easier to I'll just Sell your you know two pot loads of calves the first Saturday and November or whatever, you know And that that's worked in the past But I think as you're saying with the volatility that we see As well as the opportunity that we see for being able to market other things We we need to rethink that default setting of we just sell calves in the fall and that's what we do If you can sell into different markets at different times of the year, you're less likely to catch the low You know, that's that's part of it, but Even within that is understanding the the markets that we're selling into Not just is it higher than yesterday or is it higher than last month, but seasonally what? What's the best time to sell a bread cow or what's the best time to sell a six weight steer or you know just looking at kind of some some other Angles besides just what's the absolute price right now? The other thing that I've tried to become more aware of is this price relationships within a market So I'll give a good example from 2017 I had the opportunity I could have sold my neighbor is buying alfalfa from over by Groton, which you know, it's 130 miles away. He's paying $150 a ton to bring it here At the same time so I could have sold him the alfalfa that I had because I had I bought alfalfa the year before I could have sold it to him for for 150 easily because he didn't have all that freight At the same time the Stiller's grain was I could lay it in for about $88 a ton so If I'm thinking so, okay, I'll take a step back We're not just cattlemen or or livestock owners or ranches. We're also feed salesmen Where that's that's the business we're really in because either we're selling our grass to our animals We're selling out the grass to somebody else's animals or we're Putting up feed. Hey buying. Hey, we're selling it to our animals or somebody else's animals So if we take that mindset, we start looking at things differently. So going back to the Stiller's grain so on a per unit of protein It would the Stiller's grain was of Much better buy than the alfalfa. So I could have traded One for the other could have sold all my alfalfa bought equal tons of the Stiller's grain and had 50 bucks in my pocket and then within six months those prices inverted and I could have bought alfalfa back for $90 a ton and sold the Stiller's grain for 170 or something like that. So and I wouldn't have gotten out of my feed at all this was just trading within the market and So I've been watching that pretty closely this time around to see okay. Hey is going crazy Well, unfortunately, so is the Stiller's grain, but just having this this idea of trading Animals or commodities or feedstuffs within a market You know That's it that's an okay thing to do and we can't just get so tunnel vision that I gotta buy Second-cutting alfalfa or I gotta I gotta have this thing. I gotta have you know eight weight steers to sell in September Oh, yeah, I just We have to look at it differently Some people might try to feed through it Hey that you would normally feed you know kind of the Tunnel vision. This is what we've always done if that's not producing where there's not going to be enough of it There are other options out there, right? And if you're not comfortable or experienced in building rations, then find yourself a nutritionist I can help you especially if you're if you're feeding it to animals that have a floor of Requirements to be mad. So you also talked about trading within that market and Running the numbers That's something we haven't really touched base on yet, but understanding The true costs of doing things rather than simply being busy Making decisions, you know putting out this emergency now this one moving from crisis to crisis I'm a fan of Dave Ramsey. He's the financial guy. I think he has some programs on the radio Occasionally I stumble across him read a couple of his books One of the things that he said that sticks to me and I constantly remind myself of is You're the boss of your family business, whatever it is Don't busy yourself all the time doing the $10 an hour jobs at the expense of the $100 power jobs You're the manager. Yes, maybe need to find time or a way to get all the tasks done but you need to be placing time and effort into strategy that makes the money or Spends the money in some cases But you know you're charged with the profit at the end of the year or the end of the month or the end of the cycle Whatever that is, you know, so It's easy to just do because we like to do And not do the things that require effort and thought but really what we're talking about Building a grazing plan build that incorporates disaster planning for when forage is short a response When forage is good, right? Yeah, or crops are good or what have you? Those things aren't always comfortable. They're often the most profitable if we've laid in some good Yeah, and not waiting until the situation is upon you before looking into it Yeah, that's That's I and I'm sure somebody else has probably said it throughout this series of it. I think it was Thing is Eisenhower said Plans are useless, but planning is essential and I think that's that's a really key thing because Yeah, I mean like we already talked about my grazing plan has already changed and it was not even the first of May but by doing the planning and Paying attention to all these things you just develop this familiarity with the whole system, you know Because you're you're paying attention to all those pieces and trying to put them together And so then as things change you notice them because you're paying attention and and when you need to make a change It's just it's a lot easier because you understand it. I mean, I think about somebody that's you know got a Vehicle like an older vehicle that they it's their pride and joy Well, they know that thing from front to back and if something's not quite right They can tell and they know how to fix it whereas, you know if I drive it once a month and I never changed oil on it I don't I can't tell that it's pulling to the left more than it was last month because I'm not familiar enough with it So I think doing those plans and and working through it. You just You just get this intimate knowledge of your of your land that Makes a lot easier to make those changes when you need to sure non operating landowners or Or new landowners We've seen a pretty large influx of folks from other parts of the country Maybe even the world into South Dakota even some of our smaller towns if you're a listener of you are on this series and Don't have the context that Luke was just mentioning that that second hand or not second hand, but that that first-hand knowledge of We're moving into a drier period Boy markets are changing Rents are changing. What have you Here again Find find somebody that does have those things and truly has your best interests in mind the mentor network comes to mind But it could be a lender it could be You know the folks at the coffee shop have a lot of great knowledge Sometimes they they come up in these conversations as is not adding a lot of value, but they they can Just building your own network and so if you're new to this finding those folks that that will play on your team and Speak with your best interests in mind Throughout our discussion Luke, I'm gaining and understanding that you probably even after grazing or leaving behind Or at least it's your goal to leave behind more grass than some folks would even still turn livestock into They might see that as a waste you're seeing it as something else and investment maybe Speak to that a little bit. Sure well I'll preface it by saying there's some pastures that would take shorter than others for different reasons and you know every Every pasture is its own kind of context that we're dealing with so It's not that we never graze anything short, but it's that we always make sure that there's a recovery sufficient recovery and that so So the shorter it goes the longer the recovery the more I'm going to the longer I'm going to wait until I would go back in there, but I mean one of the things that I try to do is plan for a year on grazing operation now The last two years that's been doable You know other years it's not But if you're gonna do that you got to keep some you got a stockpile of some grass To use especially So I can use corner stocks up until usually about the first of March Once the frost starts coming out then we kind of got to get off the field so we're not causing some damage there So I got to have I got our grow grass this summer to graze in March and April of 23 so there's gonna be some pastures that Don't either don't get graze at all or get graze real light so that there's plenty of regrowth to graze early next year and There's a chance that we won't get to use it because it'll be under snow but That just sets it up that much better for the next time around and I can start on those and you know as soon as this Snow is coming off and melting we can turn in there and having that that extra forage is it's peace of mind and I don't know about anybody else, but I hate feeding hay when it's muddy I just want to get them out. I want to get them out. They're happier. I'm happier. You know, we're not getting stuck It's just it that's my favorite time of the year is when we can stop feeding If we're feeding we can stop feeding or even leaving corn stocks The cows are never happier than going from corn stocks to grass, you know that when that time comes so it's just a It's a stress reliever and Just watching the cows be happy and it's a stress reliever knowing that hey We you know, we got a good start and you know, and like I said to having the flexibility of Varying our stocking rate. Okay, so we got extra grass that we carried over from last year. Well, we can We can adjust our stocking rate to match it for the next year Whatever class or species they are And and you're not Out of grass or out of feed immediately Hardly ever right because your stock appropriately start with Usually except in case of flood hail or fire or or deep snow You know, the the conditions aren't changing So rapidly that you have to immediately respond and you did mention that earlier You get a big snow cover excuse me That that then starts to melt makes that crust. It's not that deep snow prevents grazing, right? Yeah Talk about that. It's maybe not necessarily the context of the series, but I've heard people say well, the snow gets too deep here. We can't raise Yeah, it depends on the kind of snow, you know, there's some some snow that Is soft enough the cattle can still muzzle through it, you know, they just Bulldoze it out of the way. Basically, you know, we've got some hills here So we get any wind at all which obviously is pretty typical in this part of the world And half the pasture is gonna be blown off. Anyways so Which is a little bit of a challenge to figure out, okay, how much is actually out there, you know What's available? Yeah But yeah, I yeah, there's years where we I would say our corn stocks are more susceptible to snow and our that aren't you know, like our our pastures would be so But at the same time, I don't think financially or economically be the wise thing to try to plan Years worth of grazing on just pasture the corn stocks are too good of a resource to to not Maximize their use of you know, so Like I said, I my goal is to get to the first of November before turning to corn stocks and then Do corn stocks till the first of March and then have have grass base from the first of March till the first of November Corn isn't a huge thing very far west anyhow It's planted more and more all the time but the reliability or the availability of finding those to graze for more than just a handful of operators is a little bit smaller Talk about how do you know when to stop? You know as far as utilization is concerned for managing that land in the interest of both yourself and the landlord You're talking about with corn stocks. Yeah. Yeah, if they're not yours. Sure So I and most of my the vast majority is rented corn stocks, so I do have to think about what's the farmer See in what's he what's he want out of this this relationship? So And for me, it's a real actually really easy Formula if you will first of all we were blessed to be an area that has I've never run out of corn stocks I've run out of winter. I run out of snow or you know, I've run out of things But never I didn't say well, I just wish I had another quarter of corn stocks I could go to So take that for what it's worth, but Yeah, I don't know I don't think they'll be any shortage of corn for people that are looking for our corn stocks, but that I Just look for husks and it when I kind of have a when I when I drive 50 feet and I didn't see You know more than one husk then it's time to time the woman the old rule of thumb that I've heard and probably a lot of other people have is one acre for one cow for one month and Unless we had like a real disaster for a corn crop. We've I've never had to do less than that There's been quite a few times we've been able to do more than that But I also want to make sure there's residue, you know going back to soil health principles I know that the the farmer doesn't want those cows eat everything except for the stock and I don't want them to get that to that point either because they're you know They're gonna eat the best stuff first and once the once the corn is gone and once the husks are gone Yeah, the leaves are still okay, but you know every day that they're eating the That stuff is a day where I got a few more protein, which is additional cost and and at least in this part of the world You know that the rent is all based on per cow per day And so it's not on a per acre basis So I pay the same if she had a really good diet as if I left her there too long and she had a poor diet So it's from a cost standpoint, which yeah Yep Yeah, I mean and there are some obviously there's challenges with fence or water this past year because of The drought stress corn and a lot of years in the ground We actually lost a couple cows because there was a little more corn out there than I thought so But I missed opportunity there I should have had some cold cows to turn out and and put some weight on something, you know That like I said that I look I can always look back and say all right next year I'm gonna or the next time this scenario happens This is what I need to be looking for these are the opportunities that could present themselves and I need to be thinking about that helps me Provide a little bit for reference with something that I have less experience with Yeah Salute, I'm ashamed to say that this is the first time that I've been able to visit your operation What does your typical grazing rotation look like maybe it's different here during the drought maybe not and you can explain that but as far as rotation lengths How do you manage livestock across the ranch? Well, that's a tricky question because I feel like there's nothing typical here I mean that there's not a typical year is not necessarily a typical Strategy and I mean that I have a hard time doing the same thing two times in a row because I always thought I think we could do it This like we could change this and then get a little better, you know Better impact or better outcome or whatever. So I'm always tinkering on things trying to make them a little better I Guess in a dry year I'll say to normal year. We would the cows We run two different cow herds and they would move To a new pasture roughly every three to Seven or eight days ten days maybe it in the biggest ones and and they would generally go through a pasture just once and Just and you know some pastures are bigger than others and sometimes to get to get it to a Less than a week grazing period. We're gonna use some temporary electric fence to cut it in half or whatever but I feel like that that one Keeping the cattle in a pasture for more than a week They're gonna come back be especially during the you know, May and June. They're gonna be coming back and re grazing plants And that's just we don't want that to happen. That's kind of the That's the main driver of that that grazing period is not taking the second bite And then not taking the second bite with without a long rest period, you know, so That doesn't mean you'd never Right Correct, yeah, so so in a normal year That's where we use the yearlings to to take that to do the second grazing event or the first one depending on you know If the cows are not gonna get to this pasture until you know, August 15th Well, we'll run the yearlings through there and graze it lightly in May or June and try to always have Absolute minimum 30 days rest. I would rather have it be 60 and so just again, it depends on which pasture some are More dominated by a species that can probably handle a little shorter rest period and others We're really trying to make it as long as possible And there's some pastures. We won't graze twice at all. So just it's really a moving target as far as that goes but Now in a dry year, it's just once we don't graze anything twice during the growing season now like I said, we will try to save their stockpiles some grass for for March, which You know that grass grew the year before so we might graze it in May or June and It's got enough regrowth that we can come back to it in March And so it's just that that's kind of how that works, but we do try to you know move like I said about once Once a week or more Throughout the year That's good and you explained the why We know that when a plant is regrace that second bite you talked about because Usually some pretty significant root shrinkage and plant vigor is gonna go down if we're all you know The grazing event itself is a stress event Couple that with extended drought periods and we put that plant especially if it's a desirable one Well, no, we want to keep at a real competitive disadvantage if we haven't been accommodated like you say for the recovery So with that framework or that groundwork laid out Do you expect your land to bounce back rapidly? Maybe more rapidly than the conventional operator season long days. I you know, I think so and I and I Can say that with some confidence because I saw it last summer There was one pasture in particular we Had a little miscommunication with the the herders with the sheep and they They went scorched earth on this in about five acres. I mean it was boy was bad I took some pictures just yeah, I guess I documenting mistakes so that I okay. We don't want to do this again And because it was yeah, they had it and if you've been around sheep, you know that they they can graze it pretty short I think they they even ate half of the litter that was on the ground. I mean they really I was worried about the sheep or the used performance because they were you know, they're the It was breeding season. And so yeah, it was I was not feeling very good about that that event and That was like I took a picture that is like July or it was August 9th I think I Yeah, well, I and it's on my you know on my photo album or whatever on my on my phone and I went back I think it was like 20th or 22nd of August we and we'd had that first round of rain I don't remember how much rain we had and I was just blown away by how quickly that grass grew I mean I put my my hat down on the ground. I took a picture for some scale And I mean there was grass that had been grazed down to the dirt that was taller than the crown of my hat And that was in like 10 days. It was unbelievable How quickly that grass had grown and I know that that would not have been the case if that Would have had a history of abuse or if that grass had been nipped off all summer But you know going back to what I was saying earlier that grass was able to not be stressed at all All year other than from the weather but as far as grazing events. They didn't have any until you know Early August and this is cool season grass that Just really was able to come back and and so so yeah I guess I can say that I've seen how quickly some of that and and not to You know past judgment on anybody else's management, but it's not hard to drive down the road and see pastures that Yeah, they got green after it rained, but they didn't grow, you know, they there's no production. There was it just changed colors and So yeah, you have healthy plants with robust root systems right the season-long grazer Has plants that are surviving with pretty small root systems and probably if it's if it's a Decades-long history of those two management's compared side-by-side You probably have a very diverse Species mix that provides a whole host of nutrient density for raising animals whereas You know season-long Every year at the same time and usually very severe utilization It's probably just one or two species that don't offer that that really nutrient-dense package from a whole bunch of different species. So Interesting and absolutely I would concur. I've seen the same response is it While you learn something Good and bad is that yeah once in a while if you have to for one reason or another really take a pasture short If that's an exception rather than the rule It's going to recover pretty rapidly Especially as as long as that next couple of seasons you really treat it nice Right, and that's where y'all kind of earlier discussion about stock pilings of that grass and wasting it so to speak That's the cushion for those times where okay, you know what we got to keep them here We got our shipping date set and we know that this is going to take some of use But it's prepared for it and we have a plan for how we're going to let it recover You know it does give you some latitude on on that And the other thing too is that heavy freezing at the right time of year on on the right species can Drive us to a desired outcome. Yeah exotic cool-season grass. Exactly bone Kentucky bluegrass Excuse me and Preston wheat grounds are three key examples where maybe we have to target it for you pretty intense usually pretty early and Rest that will allow the opportunity for maybe the more desirable native species to make Yep To be able to move from one pasture to the next on average every seven to ten days when things are normal But even in drought situation That suggests to me you must have water developments pretty well distributed around the ranch Some folks that maybe aren't in that situation may use this period of drought And maybe even the proceeds from some sale of livestock to to invest in water infrastructure What's that look like here? That's one thing I've come to really appreciate about The way that my parents went about Preparing for drought going all the way back to the late 80s. They have spent a lot of money on on Well systems and pipeline and water tanks and with very few exceptions I would change any of it I mean it's it was all done right and his I mean When I think about how to compare it at water developments, it's like Only have if you don't have it It's like having only first gear in your pickup you can get a lot of work done But you're not gonna get very far, you know, like you're the radius of work you can accomplish is pretty small and So, you know, we're able to utilize a hundred percent of the ranch Every year whether it's wet or dry because we have water that isn't dependent on, you know stock dams Yeah And even in a last year, there's even on some lease ground. There's some springs that you know Are really good springs that, you know, almost had no water in them by the time that was my mistake waiting so long to get to them, but Yeah, it's there's a lot of peace of mind of knowing that I can get fresh water Anywhere and in the past a lot of it was, you know buried pipe six foot deep, you know cement Skirting around a uke tire, you know, really a well-built permanent winterized, you know type of a system and there's absolutely that's important if you're gonna do, you know Grays till November 1st and then starting in the 1st of March But we've also kind of realized that you know what sometimes we don't know exactly where we should put that tank And rather than make this big investment in a permanent site We'll use like above ground water line And kind of more a little bit more temporary type setup And if we like it and we say up we could use this, you know during the dormant season Then we can go ahead and invest in a more permanent solution But being able to have it flexible or easy to add on and Go a different direction or go with a different pasture or whatever that That's important to have the flexibility built in I guess the other thing that has been a Good thing I think is being able to help out neighbors that That need it, you know, I there's there's been last summer I had one neighbor that you know, he's Didn't have any good water in the pasture and he asked if they could run a line over to his place and you know By the next day at noon I had it set up and and he was really thankful for it and you know just helping each other out with those kind of things and that's That goes a long way towards those relationships, you know that we that we want to have with our neighbors and So yeah, and like I said familiarizing oneself with how these things work and what kind of Materials to use or what kind of equipment you need to to do different things. I mean, I've got About six different types of floats that I'll use depending on the situation that water quality Well, you know what where it's coming from Just yeah You got it like I said maintain flexibility just like everything else, you know It's not just the one-size-fits-all. Oh everybody needs to put in this kind of a drinker or this kind of a system It's all situation dependent If you don't have much for pipeline or it was already there when you started Ask for help. Yeah, you know your local contractors are wealth of information The chances are it's proud. They're all busy. Yeah, it's gonna be weeks if not months before they can get to you So if you're in a situation where you already own the equipment or can go rent it and they're gonna do the work yourself Find somebody who's done it before to give you their opinions and much like the stereotypical Barrier or sure or even some you know military background I'm gonna really throw stereotypes here They're gonna have a very deeply firm firm deeply held opinion and they'll give it to you willingly. Yeah Yeah And in your case you found that many things work just Yeah, yeah, yeah One more question Luke you walked into an operation that already had a raising plan in place a draw plan in place But but you were charged with making it your own and and getting buy-in communicating that with all the stakeholders Clearly this has lasting value because you're continuing to do it and making tweaks as needed What kind of values are they What comforts what conveniences what? Dollars does that mean for you? Yeah Well I mean our our deeded land that you know I guess I should say when I started when I Here after college and when I came back after college We've sort of been in a continual expansion process and picking up leases or partnerships with neighbors that um Didn't necessarily have Well, definitely didn't have this the type of grazing that we do or that I do I guess um Generally was either season long or just a lot longer graze periods and smaller more numerous herds rather than large herds and so in some sense A lot of those I've had to kind of start Without a lot of Background of you know, well, here's how here's what works like okay that worked when there were 60 cows here What about when there's 325, you know um So I've had to kind of make things up as I go in some of those cases but I use some things like web soil survey to get some Some baseline here's what to expect in a good year. Here's what to expect in a normal or a unfavorable year or whatever um, and then going to the water development Uh, there's probably somebody a lot smarter than me that could have anticipated some of the problems I'd run into You know figuring out flow rates and capacities and all that so that's that's been sort of a work in progress, but um having Now having the plan having the experience and having it documented like okay, this is how it worked. Here's what happened um Not only does it help me put every year into some context. I could look at back and say well, okay, we had We had a really wet spring in 2011 Okay. Well, what did we do then I could look back and okay. This is how it kind of how it went so it It provides some help in planning for similar types of years um, it also provides Some documentation of improvements or you know the results of the improved management over time and I haven't had to Well, I haven't really had this situation arise yet, but when it comes time, you know Some of my landlords are you know in their retirement years and They may or may not have kids that are interested in owning the property But I know that's helped me maintain Some leases because of the management and the way that I'm going about it and Being able to communicate with them in a way that they can understand like okay. Here's here's how many grazing days We got last year. Here's my grazing days. We got here before I can really explain myself and why we're doing what we're doing and that sort of thing that and that goes a long ways and maintaining those relationships and um Making them feel like somebody who's taking care of their their property So it's easy for you can actually provide that document. Yeah, they wanted to see it right you're Making fact-based decisions right rather than we always run here for two months. Yeah. Yeah 80 head No matter what yeah or 325 in your example because you run larger Herds for Yeah, yeah, and and being able to explain that so for example, I got one lease where the type of a water Account that set up with the rural water system is that so much gallon or so many gallons a month And uh, which does not work at all for you know, I mean it's designed for 60 to 70 pairs 12 months of the year Yeah, yeah, and we're great and I mean we we blow through that in six days with the herd size we got But we only need it for a month and a half. So Being able to go to and say hey, we need to change this this Water account, um, and here's why and being able to explain that and oh, okay Yeah, if the infrastructure is there and the agreement can be modified, you know, it's worth asking that question Yeah, but then again, you know going back to what's the value lasting value and having that plan It is to be able to See what we've done in the past how we've improved And then make plans for the future and and just have the flex being able to make the flex Or it makes it make the changes and maintain the flexibility As the year goes along. So eventually someday if you know, if we'd ever want to sell Some property it's almost like having a service record on your vehicle and saying hey, here's everything we did to it, you know Um, yeah, there's a washout over there But this is what it looked like before and because of our management that washout is half as big as it was Five years ago and you know that speaks to the overall trend of this land is getting better and uh, you know, so Yeah, there's a lot of values to it I'm gonna take I'm gonna summarize a few takeaways that I've gotten from our conversation thus far is A with time and effort into planning and learning Recognizing your mistakes and and trying not to repeat them Take photos That's one we haven't heard yet. Um, yeah, you may not be proud of the way your place looks right now And that's okay. You don't have to go and show the world your photos Right, you're welcome to if you if you come to a grassland coalition event and want some input or something like that, but Take some photos like Luke said so that you can remember with clarity How bad it can look if if it's to that degree Um, secondly be willing to adapt in all situations And and that adaptation doesn't necessarily have to come in crisis It could be adapting to take advantage of a market condition or something like that Gosh, there's so much here We hope that you find value in it like I found value in just having a conversation Because having conversations like this Makes me better able to do my job with other managers that that I'm visiting this. So I thank you for your time, Luke and uh, again folks Here on the website, you'll find resources to not only Luke, but all of the Folks that signed up to serve as mentors With the grassland coalition. So thanks again for your time. You're welcome