 Hi everyone. So I'm Jonathan from Repair Together, which is the Wallonian and Belgian network for hypercafes. I want to talk today about planned obsolescence and with you. The idea is to present concrete cases of planned obsolescence. I've encountered during my repairs because I'm a repairer and I'm also an engineer and we did this study with a colleague, which is an industrial designer. And so yeah, we wanted to show what's really planned obsolescence in our opinion. The idea is that you have little papers and then you can vote each time when I present a case. You will be able to vote if you think it's planned obsolescence or not. So you decide, I don't, but I have my idea. And we will start directly with what do you think between those cases? Which one is planned obsolescence according to you? So we have a chip that counts prints in a printer, a product that changes its design every year, my jeans that are wearing at the crotch, so it's here. And a manufacturer will complexify the shape of the screw heads on a product. So you can take your papers and vote. What you think for you, it's planned obsolescence. Okay, a lot of ace, a few bees and each one of them. Okay, thank you. It's working now. Okay, so we came with a definition with my colleague Simon, which is a more detailed definition oriented by his designer point of view. And so it says, planned obsolescence refer to the set of techniques by which a product and its nominative duration, they're deliberately reduced from its conception without any advantage for the consumer, thus limiting its duration of use to increase its replacement rate. So we will take the highlight sentence parts. So it's the set of techniques that reduce the nominative duration. So a nominative duration is like the duration, the lifetime it should have. And the idea behind that is to increase the replacement rate. So that's quite okay for us. And then we came with four kinds of planned obsolescence. So you can find a lot of kind of planned obsolescence, but those are the kind we like to talk about. So the planned obsolescence trick to sense to, which is the strictly speaking planned obsolescence, when you talk about planned obsolescence is that one. It's like when you have a technical problem on a device, when it's a component that is failing or something like that, you have indirect planned obsolescence. Those are all the methods that prevent an object for lasting longer. So like complexity things, screws, heads, like spare parts availability for a very short time or spare parts too expensive and stuff like that. Then you have planned obsolescence by incompatibility. So that's the methods. So you need to purchase a new object because the one you are using is no longer compatible. We have that with smartphones essentially with the updates. Then you cannot use an old smartphone because you have updates that are slowing it down too much. But also accessories that are not compatible. So like if IKEA came with like a new, sorry. So you have those with a lot of boxes and if they change like one centimeter, you will not be able to use all your accessories. So that's a kind of planned obsolescence too. And then the psychological planned obsolescence. So it's like when we motivate you to buy something new because there is a new color or you absolutely need a new one. Yeah. So maybe you can vote now which kind of planned obsolescence you encountered the most. So Strictorsensu, so the technical one, the indirect planned obsolescence by incompatibility or psychological obsolescence. Okay. And those who are at the back, you can grab on the chairs here. Okay. So we have a lot of these, a bit of Cs and one B I think. So as we see, we don't encounter a lot of technical planned obsolescence, but it's the most famous one. And we have a lot of psychological planned obsolescence. I think myself too, it's that one that I encountered the most because yeah, it's everywhere. You have the marketing and stuff. So yeah. So we are going to inside the problematic things. So concrete cases and I will start with coffee machines. So I have here an example of a sensio coffee machine. And we have a lot of problems with the little yellow box on it. And this one is the blue one, which is a capacitor. And this one is constantly powered up. And it will tear down like in approximately two years if you let the device plugged. So the big problem with that is that you, so this is another picture. The big problem is that is that they are saying it's in the user manual. They are saying you have to unplug your coffee machine when you are not not using it. But who is reading user manuals? Is the only one? Yeah, you are not reading it? Yes. Does coffee machine come with the user manual? Okay. And so yeah, that's a big problem. And in fact, they could have think about it and avoid this part to be destroyed. Yeah. They use bad parts of the water rinse after year out. If you often use it and use it often in short times, the water rinse out after year. Yeah. Yeah, that's another problem. They are doing bad parts in there. Yeah. But that's directly. Yeah. So yeah, the big problem is this component is in fact that when you are pushing the power on button, it's not for the power off button. You are not powering off this component. It's always powered up. And the producer, the manufacturer, could have put a plug, a switch before this component to avoid. So the solution is to buy a switch by yourself. And moreover, it saves electricity because in fact it consumes. It's consuming. But on the other hand, we have the manufacturers is defending himself. And they have to balance balance between the cost and the quality of their product. In Belgium, at least they are, it's okay with the legal warranty of two years. It's respected. And the solution is clearly in the user manual. But yeah, who is reading it? So yeah, according to you, what do you think it is? Is this a clear case of planned obsolescence? Do you think it's a negligence from the manufacturer because they forgot to put a switch button? Maybe it's a manufacturer error. So yeah, they did a mistake. Or it's not a case of planned obsolescence. We are at the fixed test. So a lot of green one. A, B, yeah. Yeah, maybe. But when you show the diagram, the electronic diagram to an electronician is like, what the hell? Because it's like crazy that they didn't put a switch there. But as you said, you don't have to blame planned obsolescence right away. You have other problems with coffee machines. There can be problems with electronics with the rest of the cardboard. We have problems with the pump with the problems with the three ways valve, which is a small valve behind it. And then we have a lot of maintenance issues. In fact, people are maintaining their coffee machine with vinegar, which is not good. In fact, vinegar attacks so there is like a piece of magnet inside the water part, which is moving when you have water or not. And with vinegar is expanding and then it blocks like up or down. If it's down, your machine says, I have no water. If it's up, your machine is eating nothing and then it breaks. So yeah, those are the main problems with the coffee machine. But the capacitor is one of them. And usually repairs in the repair cafes have those capacitors in their back because we replace a lot of them. Yeah, we have a guide to repair sensors, which is like 100 pages of cases of sensors and how to repair it. And then we have like psychological planned obsolescence. If you want a different coffee machine, they all do the same bad coffee, but they are like this one. It's really nice with flowers. Okay, we have the same problem of capacitors on kitchen mixers. So this is a small case that came from a volunteer from a repair cafe in South South Belgium. So he repaired a kitchen mixer of 2011 and a few months after he had to repair a kitchen mixer of 2015. And they changed the value of the capacitor by 33% between 2011 and 2015. So I was not at the marketing meeting, but maybe they said it lasted a bit long. Maybe we should reduce the value of the capacitor. Yeah, and so now the kitchen mixer is failing after two years, which was not really the case afterwards. Sorry? Okay, then I have a case about screens. So we have an iMac there, an old iMac. And we have also a case of capacitors. But in fact, the capacitors, so the capacitors are those circular stuff. They are placed just next to the heating part, which is the power supply, so the gray part. I will show here because you said it was beautiful, but in fact, this is heating a lot. This is heating a lot. And those are really sensible to heat. And so when it's too hot, they are going to, I always forgot how you say, they are going to blow. And we see that, after what you will see on this one, we see that the closest one are totally blown. And those dots are far. They are okay. So probably they shouldn't have put them there. We have those kinds of problem with televisions too, so those pictures. In these pictures, the heating part is in metal there. It's the heat dissipator. So it dissipates the heat from other components. And it's placed next to capacitors, which will blow. So we had that case a lot with Samsung televisions. So the capacitors are not working, but if you heat them, it's going to work a bit. So you have a lot of video on the Internet with people heating their televisions with a hairdryer, and then it's going to work like five minutes, and then it's not working anymore. So the solution is to place the, so it's easy to say for me because I'm not a designer, but you have to place the components far from the heating part. But yeah, the manufacturer is defending. So they said about the capacitor that they had a supplier issue. In fact, they were buying capacitors in Japan, and then they had to buy it in China because the price were too high, and then the quality went down. So too bad. They always have to find the balance between the cost and the quality. The two-year warranty is respected. And that case for speaking to electronic engineering engineers, it's quite right. It's difficult to optimize the space on the secret board because you have to respect a lot of information and you have to choose where you put your components, and sometimes you don't have the choice. But still, what do you think? Is it planned obsolescence or not? So clearly a planned obsolescence, negligence, error, negligence, you are kind. No? It's not the case of planned obsolescence. I mean, it's also a question of the definition planned for me implies that it's on purpose. And I know of the motherboards, it's difficult. You have so many things to consider like interference, heat, it's just one of them, and separating the warm from the cold parts and so on. And I'm not sure if this is really on purpose, on design, to, you know, to make things destroy themselves. I doubt that. Okay. Yeah. Yes, maybe. But we know from Apple that they often design things so that they get often broken. They won't product broke fast. But firm philosophy. Thank you. I think design engineering is essentially a balance of compromises. And what these examples are showing is that very low down the priority list is long, long life. Yeah. It's, I don't think there's an intention to, maybe I'm being optimistic, but I don't think it's an intention to design in obsolescence. It's just that long life is incredibly low priority on the design agenda. So these things are probably known, they're probably expected, but they're a low priority. Yeah. And behind you, thank you. Actually, I used to work as a product design engineer, electronic product design. I used to design PCBs for various different products. I can tell you that, at least in this case, I mean, you cannot move the capacitors too far away. Normally, in the power supply part, you are generating the different voltages that you need to use for the rest of the board. And you'd have to ideally have the capacitors as close to the part where it's generated as possible. But of course, there are things that they could do within reason, but there's other limitations like space and generating and keeping M, M, E, M, into account, the electromagnetic difference, or EMI, sorry. But I've seen this problem a lot as well with electrolytic capacitors, which are the type that leak there. I think now a lot of people are moving more towards tantalum capacitors or ceramic capacitors, high value ceramic capacitors that do not have a liquid inside, then they don't have the same issue because those capacitors have a liquid in between a roll of material and that liquid can expand and the capacitor blows up like that. So, but I think, yeah, I think like I said, I think more modern electronics, especially TVs have less and less of those electrolytic capacitance because it is quite a common problem. Thank you. Yes, you should take the mic. Just to say, during my studies, I had a course where I had to choose materials. You can choose parameters and put them on a software and it's saying which one is the best for what you want to do. And the parameters we had to put, there was always cost every time. And I know it's important the cost, but I hate it. I want to build things that last, not things that breaks. So, yeah, but we had to think about it and that's how the work, the world is working, unfortunately. Yes. In the case you have presented, would the capacity of of the capacitor change a lot in the, in terms of cost for the manufacturer? It's like sense. It's like, not that much, but they are the less the capacity, the less the cost. It depends on which capacitor, but those one, yes. So, if they put low value capacitors, they will reduce the cost and it's like scale economy, scale economy. Economy of scales. Thank you. Yeah. And so, they gain money with that. It means the cost issue is issued. Yeah. So, they try to scratch where they can. Yes, but if it is a cost issue, then it's not could be not a case of plan. Maybe. Because they have, yes, because they have their reason. So, they just explain that the product is less expensive for the consumer. So, no, no, no. The price is the same. Like the example of the the, the example of the mixer, it's like the same price between the two years, but the capacitor is less effective. It means it is not a reason. Because the cost reason is a, it can be accepted as... Yeah. For my opinion, yes. But I guess when you are a manufacturer, it's important, I guess you want to earn a lot of money. I will react to what you said. If it is a solution, for the problem, could we say that it is a key effect of plan obsolescence? Because every time you have shown a simple solution, it was very complicated to think about the solution. So, therefore, does it mean that it is a plan obsolescence in, in the, in person? Is it one? Yeah. Maybe it's another way of seeing it is not planned obsolescence, but it's a very low priority on long life. And of course, the, there is no really in sentiment for the producer to prioritize long life longer than two years. But if he has as a byproduct something that looks as obsolescence, well, let's go with that. Anyone want to react again? Yeah. Let's use another term. Let's use the term chosen obsolescence, right? Because you can say, well, they didn't plan the obsolescence, but they know it's going to happen, right? So they made a choice, right? So you could call it chosen obsolescence? The session was called premature obsolescence, and maybe that's a better term, but I don't like it because, like, I don't want it to be obsolescent at all. I agree. You could argue that they didn't plan obsolescence, but they chose, they chose a path of action which caused obsolescence for other reasons. Okay. Yeah, maybe. Yes. Again, a reaction there. I would argue from a, from a manufacturer's perspective, I mean, I can tell you from the company that I was working with, we were working a market with a lot of competition and our main focus as engineers were to divide, develop a product that meets the features at the lowest possible cost possible. Like, and that is, that was the main focus. And I'm sure that's a lot of most manufacturers main focus, but I don't know if you can necessarily blame the manufacturers for that because that's consumers behavior choosing often the lowest cost device. I mean, often it's the case. I mean, I would say that if people are given a choice if they're looking for something like a blender, and if there's two blenders that both have the features that they need, I think a vast majority of people will choose the cheaper blender. And so in that way, they, the manufacturers are incentivized to make the device as cheap as possible. And so then you can understand that they have to make compromises to achieve that low cost. And, you know, that saving costs, saving cents on capacitors may not seem like much, but with all the other costs that come with it, and if there's 10 capacitors and each capacitor is two cents cheaper, then that's already 20 cents, which is quite a lot on a product that might cost them only 10 or 20 or 30 euros, something like that. So I think that's also important to, I wouldn't say it's always the manufacturer's fault, you know. Maybe the problem is capitalism. Yeah. Question, why do consumers behave like that? Because manufacturers sell on price, right? The manufacturers cause this, not the consumer, because the manufacturers created the market, right? Nobody was buying blenders before blenders existed, right? So when manufacturers started to say, oh, I've got a blender that's as good as their blender, but it's cheaper. Who did that? It wasn't the consumer, right? So it was the manufacturer who created the race with the bottom on price, right? All the salespeople, whatever, right? I don't care what you say, but it wasn't the consumer. Consumers didn't even know that blenders existed at one point, right? And then it's marketing. Okay. So you've got a blender. So the next manufacturer comes along and says, ah, I can make what appears to be the same blender for two cents cheaper, right? So it's the manufacturer's fault, or it's the sales channel's fault, it's not the consumers. They've been programmed into this behavior by the manufacturer. Yeah. Okay. I will move on. Yeah, you want to see? On that, uh, uh, with that, uh, argument, we could say so, so, uh, uh, worse, the quality, so, uh, uh, um, less expensive a product, but it's not the case. So you have very good product, which are less expensive than bad product. So therefore I think it is, in fact, a choice from the manufacturer, but you have also the, the, the, the, uh, the dimension of, of, of quality, which is not exactly, uh, the same, like, uh, the, the, the cost on the price, uh, issue is so simple. I mean, it is much more complex. This is easy. The issue is not so simple. I see. Is it on? Yeah. This time I'll get up. Uh, I'm also an engineer, a little bit older maybe in our school was doing another kind of stuff when we, I was taught this, and I was taught that, uh, it was an, uh, a design item, uh, that could be used by companies that were either in a monopoly situation or in a duopoly situation. That is, they were in fact more or less controlling the market, that they could create a product where they knew that the quality will sink over time. Uh, the, the, the theory about this was in fact, uh, something that was, that came from Chilette and Wilkinson sort. So it's called the Wilkinson sort, sort to curve of quality. So you create a product with a quality, then over time it has a less and less quality than they produce a new product. In fact, the same quality as the original product, but now it's a damn new product. And the consumer who owns the first product has to buy this one because now it has a very high quality, which goes down and new product goes down new product. And this is not something that is a coincidence. I've been, I've been taught how to do this. And that was part of my engineering studies. Maybe not the part that I was listening most to, but, uh, and, uh, but, but it also comes into social science that this can only be done if you have a monopoly and, uh, or a very dominant situation. I've still been using this sort to curve, but then I put Windows 95, Windows me, Windows XP, Windows visitor, Windows seven, Windows eight, because that is definitely a good example of that shit. Okay. Yeah. You want to say something? The name of the session is talk about planned obsolescence, or you are free to talk. I know for my brother, he's working for a lot of electronics. They produce synthesizers and the, and he's a man, one of the men who do the last tests and, uh, buy electronic parts. So sometimes he had to repair parts of, um, bang and Olufsen, all of them. And he said, outside they're very nice, but inside they're so bad, awful electronics that buys the cheapest things and put it in. Oh, bang and Olufsen is fine, but under half years you have got the problems outside. And sometimes you make it or you can repair it, but say another part of broken two months. Yeah. Thank you. So I want to talk about the other problems linked to, uh, televisions. So as I said, the, the error from supplier for the capacitors, I already thought that, but I think the problem is that they want to reduce costs. So the quality is reduced. And I have a big problem with smart television because, um, it's really hard to repair a television. Maybe you can, but I can't. And it's, it's hard to find volunteers that can repair television. Um, but now we are creating smart television, which are computers and television together. So we need two competencies. So we need to repair, uh, yeah, two things separately in one object. And yeah, I said, yeah, and we have the problem of, um, uh, updates problem. And then, yeah, you cannot choose your television anymore because the, the computer inside is, um, too slow. That's really bad. And maybe we should stick, even if it's not working all the time, but with an HDMI cable, that's better than a computer. Um, so now I'm going to, um, shoot on the ambulance. Um, so the printers, um, so a few printers had, uh, and it's quite well now, uh, had a chip that limits the number of prints. Um, it was Epson. They were, uh, they are, they were, um, uh, charged for it in France, uh, and probably other countries I don't remember. Uh, but there are other problems linked to printers. Uh, it's the cartridge. Um, yeah, the, the, the, the ink is incredibly, uh, expensive. And we have this picture with, uh, like we compare it to channel five because it's like, uh, I have the, the, the, the cost. It's four times more expensive than channel five, uh, perfume. So that's crazy. And then, um, uh, yeah, you, you have, uh, in those, you have a chip that rejects, uh, the, um, the cartridge if it's not the same brand and your machine, um, sometimes, uh, you have a print counter on some of them. Like, they, they try in their lab, they are printing like black sheets. So entirely black and they print it like, and when, when there are no more ink, they said, okay, so it's like 100 sheet of paper. And I put that on my ship. And then when, when you print that amount of, uh, prints, it's over. You cannot use, uh, your cartridge even if, uh, you have like up to 40% of ink inside still. Um, so yeah, probably it's, uh, less, uh, costly than having like an optical, um, device that can check if there is, uh, ink in it. But yeah, still. Uh, so yeah, we have those kind of problem. And, uh, in the, um, uh, in the Repair Cafe, we have found a solution to that. So we can reset the ship. Uh, in fact, that is counting, uh, impressions. Um, so you have this little device. I found it online. I never test it, but we had, um, like, uh, uh, Russian, uh, um, uh, uh, software. Uh, and we can reset the chip with the, with this one. And the other solution is to not buy a classical printer and buy one with, uh, refillable cartridge. Um, yeah. And Epson maybe, uh, in, um, to, to, to apologize about their chip. Maybe they, they created this one that you can, um, refill yourself. Uh, but, um, like in August, I think, they, they were in the center of the attention again, because, uh, people had, uh, we talked about it yesterday. People had, uh, an error, uh, like just a part of the printer is no more, uh, working. Please throw your device away. It's like, they said just that. Yeah, you went to say something. Uh, where is the microphone? Yeah, I just wanted to say something about the Epson printer, because it's very close to my heart. Besides those issues, you also have the waste in disposal, a tube that you have to add to the printer. You have to, because every time that you clean the printer, it releases black ink. So you have to, and it fills up the pads. So you have to have, find an external source to liberate the, the ink of the Epson. Yeah. And I can tell you one thing with, with an Epson printer, once you put the, the continuous system, the Russian software and the waste, uh, you could probably print about 200,000 pages with no problem. Yeah. If you sustain, if you, if you maintain that printer well, and I come from South America where everything is fixed, everything, and that printer is a tank of a printer. Once you understand how it works, something that costs absolutely very little money can be such an incredible machine of, yeah, I just wanted to say that about the Epson. Thank you. So yeah, we have the manufacturers defense. So those are real defense we, we found in articles. So the remaining ink is to protect the head of the printer. So yeah. The print counter is to avoid the saturation of the cleaning pad. As we said yesterday, if you go, you see the cleaning pad, you remove it, you put a new one and then it should work, but it's not because you have a print counter. Um, and then, uh, yeah, they are counting droplets, not impressions. Uh, yeah, they said that. I'm not sure. Uh, and then the, the best one is, um, they adapted their tolerances to all environments so that's like you can print in the desert and in tropical spaces if you want. That's nice because if you want to print in the desert, you have enough, uh, enough ink in your cartridge. So, um, if you want to, to, to vote, maybe, uh, is this a case of planned obsolescence or maybe a case of planned obsolescence? Sorry, I got the wrong one. Okay. So there were, there were a suit in, in France for that. So I guess you can vote A, but you, you can choose still. Thank you. Um, yeah, that's a clear case. I like, uh, I like what we talked about, uh, in the case before because the, the idea is to talk about it because it's never clear, but they're, um, real, uh, we're got, we're real, um, justice choose. They said it was. So, um, sorry, I have a problem about my pictures. Um, so the next, um, thing I want to talk about is chargers. I, I, I don't know if you have that, but, uh, every time, um, you have a charger, it breaks at the same, uh, place. It's like, uh, at the end of it, uh, because probably we are, uh, rolling it too much, but it's always the same problem. And I don't know why they are not doing something about it. Sorry. Yeah, I do know, but, I have to say I don't know. Um, and yeah, it's always the, the same problem. And it's for my MacBook chargers. I found a solution now, but it's quite difficult to, to open it because it's, uh, hot glued. Um, and it's really difficult to open it. Um, so yeah, we have those kind of problem, but, uh, we have solutions. Uh, so Apple came with, uh, this, um, charger where you can replace the, the, the cables. So that's nice. You, you can, uh, uh, change the USB one. You can change the other one. So that's, that's a nice solution. Uh, you can, uh, have a stronger cable. They could do that, I guess. Um, and you can reinforce your, uh, cable. Uh, that's nice with, um, a self. Um, I don't know the, the name in, um, in English. So your shrink tube. Thank you. Uh, and maybe, um, uh, okay. Uh, this one there, uh, it's a spring. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Um, yeah. And so you can do, do that to, to reinforce it. Um, yeah. Uh, that's all I have to say about that. But, uh, again, the manufacturers, um, they always have the same problem between cost and quality. Uh, they say that the user neglects their, um, devices. And I think that's right. We, we are always like, uh, and then we are throwing it. Um, and, uh, yeah. The manufacturing processes are faster when you hot glue things. So that's why they do this. And then they talk about security because, uh, so it's hot glued so you cannot open it. It's difficult to open, but it's for your security. Okay. Please, uh, believe me. Uh, so I don't know what to think about chargers. Maybe you have something to say. Um, you, you can vote or you can talk, but you, let's, let's vote them. You don't know. Yeah. Well, we don't. So, but yes. Thank you. A and Bs. Okay. Yeah. In the, in the mic. Thank you. Thank you. I think we got a bigger problem of chargers. Um, there is a very dangerous cheap ones that can get in fire. A friend of my brother's half kitchen is burning down by using a cheap charger. Okay. Well, it's allowed to use that. Why? It's important that shit. Yeah, that's rubbish. And it's, it's stabilized normally, but okay. Um, the next point is screw heads. So, um, um, they, um, manufacturers use, uh, uncommon screw heads like, uh, safety crew screw heads, temper proof screw heads. Uh, I think it's to prevent this assembly, but who knows? Uh, I, I had this screw and I had a, and I fix it kit and I was like, oh, this one I have in my kit. So it's like a three, uh, three wing one. I'm, I'm like, you have a, uh, those tools there. So to be able to open everything, we have to, those ones. So, and there, there is not everything. And like, maybe you can do more. Um, but so I think I have the, the, the, the white one. Uh, but in fact I can screw, but I cannot unscrew. And that's bad because there is, there is a slope. So I was with my, uh, this, um, it was a toaster. So there were three, uh, classic screws and then this one. So I was screwed then. Um, so yeah, that's a funny one. And then you have the, um, well known, uh, Nespresso, uh, which is like, uh, five millimeters on six millimeters. Again, I took my, I fixed it kit and I was like, yes, I have this one. And then I use it and it's so you're five millimeters on six and you don't know if you, if you don't know it's the correct one because you have a lot of screw head. So you, you are trying, it's not working. Then you, you try other one and then in fact, you just have to move it a bit. But yeah, still, you, you need like a kit. And then I have, um, yeah, the triangular one. Those ones are quite handy in fact, but you have to, the, the spanner screws. So those ones are easy to unscrew because you can just take a flat screwdriver and then you, you remove the inside of it and then you have a, uh, a spanner screwdriver. Uh, I don't know the name of this one if you know it. Uh, sorry. Uh, then, uh, Pentalobe, it's in Apple, uh, smartphones. Um, yeah. And in smartphones, we have other problems with plastic clips. Um, sometimes it's glued and it's really difficult to open. And the solution, we are really inventive with this one. So you can use elastics. You put in the screw with another screwdriver and then you hope it's gonna fit. Um, you have the, the nice one. You, you, you take a, you take a, a, a big and then you hit it, then you put it on. I have the, the guilty ones. Um, you put, you hit it, then you put it on the, on the screw, you wait. Uh, and then you have a handmade screwdriver. It's not gonna, gonna last long, but it's working. Then you can buy something. Um, for the, the one that was unscrewable, I used, like a player. Um, and then you can use the hard way. You just destroy the screw and you put a classic one. We limit the screw in it and then, um, let's put that out. But you have to, most of you have to reheat it. It's always not glue in it. But it's difficult. Yeah. This is the handmade screwdriver. It's working. Um, so the, the manufacturer's defense is like, um, uh, they are, uh, scared about our security. Uh, they want to prevent this assembly to maintain the warranty. And, um, yeah, with those kind of screws, they can, uh, yeah, have hot rice people, uh, to, to repair your stuff and not you. So I don't know what you think about screw heads. Yeah, I like E S B. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, a lot of A's, a bit of B's. Okay. So I have iPhone, but I'm not going to, to talk about that because I have like eight minutes left. Uh, so I'm just going to speak about the impact of obsolescence just really rapidly, but of course you have problem about the environment. We'll talk about it yesterday. Impact on the population, impact on the economical point of view. Uh, but I don't want to, um, yeah, I don't want to, to be, uh, the bad news bringer. So we will, uh, see how we can fight against land obsolescence. Uh, and the idea is to get informed, uh, to compare what you want between what, uh, instead of what you need, uh, check if you want it or if you need it. And I, uh, found this, uh, beautiful toaster where you can, uh, toast, but you can also boil your eggs. You can, uh, heat your beans and a lot of things. And I wonder if I really need that because I have a pan. I don't know if you know what it is. Okay. So yeah, it's, it's useful to, to think about yeah, what we really need. Um, it's nice to check the availability of spare parts, even if it may be in 10 years when you have the problem, uh, the spare part won't be, won't be available, uh, anymore, but still, uh, you can check the repair ability and then you have nice websites when you can do that. I fix it, of course, uh, on Greenpeace, they have, um, a bit of information and then there is a French website, uh, which is quite nice too. Um, and when you buy something that just check if the strength and the quality is okay. Just sometimes you know it's not gonna last long. So don't buy it. Uh, check the warranty if you have, uh, like a long warranty. For example, Seb in France, they are selling stuff that are were, uh, guaranteed like 10 for 10 years. So that's nice because you know it's gonna last at least 10 years, I hope. Um, yeah, after I have, uh, good things to say, uh, it's easy to say, but it's, uh, not maybe easy to do, but if, if you are aware of it, for example, consume less, maybe if you say I consume too, I consume, uh, too much, it's already something. Uh, yeah, like my father said, read the fucking manual. Um, yeah, you have a lot of information on that. Uh, you have to think about the maintenance of your, uh, devices because that's usually where the problem is. And it's really easy to say getting rid of advertising. But yeah, if you know, uh, you are, um, manipulated by advertising, that's something already. Just think about it. And then you can, uh, do it by yourself instead of, uh, buying it. You can repair, but I won't tell you that today teach you that today because you know about it, of course. Uh, and then, um, yeah, you can reuse instead of, uh, buying, of course, again, uh, the same, um, image you, you have seen a thousand of time. Uh, and then, yeah, a bit about eco design, of course. Um, if you know, you, you probably know Fairphone. Um, so they, they, they have smartphone that lasts longer, because they have component that lasts longer, they are reputable, they are upgradable, uh, they have a system of reusing, uh, reuse of parts. Um, even if Fairphone is a, is a fourth, uh, edition, I think, so maybe that, yeah, but you can repair it. You have a screwdriver with it. Um, so yeah, and other, uh, examples like framework is the same as, um, a Fairphone, but with computers, I think it's nice, but it's not available in Europe yet, I think. Yeah, now it is. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. And then, uh, I've, uh, we have found, uh, Kipit, uh, which is a brand, and they are producing, uh, Jaren, um, uh, Kettle, uh, and the idea is that it should be repairable and it's, uh, think, uh, think, uh, to be, um, multifunctional. So that's nice. And I think we will have more and more example of, uh, eco-designed products. And I think that's one of the solution and maybe you should think to buy those instead of classical bad products. And then that's it for me. And if you have something to say, feel free. Yes. The mic, please. The mic. It's just a proposal for all of us who are working with this stuff. And we are finding material that has some kind of difficulty repairability. Uh, if it's from a company in your own country, and even if it's not, but if it's from a company in your own country, then write them. Write them and give them very good reputation on their very beautiful product, which, uh, our user would have expected to last the rest of his or her life and ask them, uh, how to take it apart. And if they have the spare parts, uh, maybe they'll answer no, but then we'll write them again and again and again about the regulation because in a, in a clear fact of, uh, obsolescence kind of places like the printers, I think, uh, uh, the regulation could also play. I thought about that yesterday. You can accept everything. And if it is, you will prove that it is a clear fact Yeah, but I, I should add that, like, join the write to repair campaign because, yeah, we can, we can do stuff about that. We can force them to do things. It's just, well, it's a very quick comment on this because actually the recorded sign, like you mentioned, there are plans now to regulate printers. So, uh, it should be ambitious indeed if we have all of this design problem, uh, problems. Um, my understanding, you might know more. My understanding is that for years, uh, for the printing, actually it was up to the industry to come up with durability and repairability requirements. And for a long time, you know, this hasn't happened and the ambitious was not enough. And finally the commission has said, now we need actual rules. Uh, so it's a good news. Finally, it should be the case for all products not to leave it for the industry to decide, you know, voluntarily, but to really have the, the design more durable, more repairable. So, yeah. Thank you. Now to work on it to be, to be good. Just to react to also on, on plan obsolescence and how to legislate on that because like it's been, uh, we have low in France, uh, against plan obsolescence, but actually like the definition current is very vague. And, uh, for now it hasn't helped any of the legal cases to actually, uh, finalize. Apple did get a fine for, uh, the cases where they, um, the update led to a lower, um, performance, but it was, um, because it affects to another legal base, which, which is actually like the, uh, uh, misinformation of the consumer. So it's not planned obsolescence. It's misinformation of consumers. Um, so actually, uh, the thing is that defining legally planned obsolescence, it's very difficult. So, uh, we, it's better actually to come up with, uh, with regular weather than saying, uh, planned obsolescence should be banned. We need to, uh, to define legislation, clear the legislation on what planned obsolescence is. And it would probably, it probably won't be like, uh, for all, like, uh, the first time we try it, uh, we probably miss things. There will be loopholes. Manufacturers will find ways to go around it, but at least we will have the days. And, uh, that's something I think we, we, where we need experts, we need, uh, um, repairs to, to tell us like what are, uh, the, let's say the features, the, the things which could apply to many products at once because there will be, uh, design features which are applied only to smartphones over only to printers. And, but we, we need, uh, something we like horizontal legislation, which will help us in terms of plan obsolescence tackle every, as many products as possible at once. And that's what is really tough at this moment, but, uh, where we, we, we need a lot of help from, uh, repairs. You, if you, you, uh, it, it, uh, um, it is also the fact that, uh, you have less repairs. Who are the repairs? They, I mean, uh, if you bring, uh, a product back to the place you, you, you bought it, they'll just say that we don't have any, uh, repairs. They mostly say that your, your, your product is not broken up. I mean, uh, and, uh, I mean, if yes, maybe the repairs cafes or I don't know the, the people like that, but repairs, it is more and more difficult to find some, some, uh, somewhere. But, but definitely like statistically, the profession, the number of professional repairs at this have decreased because of the complexity of the products. And that's why, uh, through eco design policies, uh, we, we try as much as possible to, to make it mandatory for manufacturers to give access to spare parts, to give access to repair information, to, uh, to make sure that spare parts are accessible, uh, that, but it's not yet enough, of course, but, uh, well, this legislation is, uh, being developed as we speak at the most recent, uh, piece of legislation in terms of, uh, material efficiency, uh, developed at sea level, uh, is enforced only since, uh, March 2021 for washing machines, dishwashers, fridges, and displays. And we know that it won't be enough because there are a lot of loopholes. It's not going far enough, but, uh, based on our experience and, uh, on data on where there is this legislation, which was supposed to do that, but, um, obviously it doesn't work. So we need to, to keep on improving it, on improving it. So, so we need all, uh, all the information we can get on what legislation we need, uh, for that, because of a rise, like we want, we can't just wait for manufacturers to make the bad shift. And, and as, uh, we have limited power in terms, like, because of planned obsolescence to, um, to repair this stuff, like we, I see in the room upstairs, there are many, uh, very knowledgeable repairs, but still there are things you can't fix. So we need to, to, through legislation to, to make that mandatory for manufacturers. It will be tough. It will be, it will be difficult to find the, the wording which will, uh, actually make it, uh, possible and also which will prevent, uh, manufacturers to design their products in, in a slightly other way, just to be out of the scope of the legislation. That's what is very difficult. Like for example, on smartphones, uh, they, um, the, what the commission has proposed, like it's, it will cover, uh, mobile phones, smartphones, cordless phones, and, um, and the slate tablets, but it won't cover, uh, phones which are, uh, wallable. You know, that's the new technology. You can extend the display through a kind of walling system, and this will be out of the scope. So basically it will encourage manufacturers to, okay, so we will produce only that for now, because now we, then we can be out of the, of the scope. And that's where we need to say, nope. We, we have to include all the phones, uh, whatever, whichever they are. So that's an example of how, like, how we need to be to make sure that the scope is as wide as possible. Thank you. And Christina, for the, the end word. Maybe for the end word, because we're talking about regulation, how can we push legislators to do more? And for those who were, uh, at the EU conference yesterday, you've probably heard the lady from the commission saying that she was representing the DG Just. They are working for consumer rights. They are going to publish a proposal on Right to Repair on November, uh, 13th, she said. So let's be ready. We, as Right to Repair campaign, we, we will be ready. We, uh, we will try and do our best to push them to ask them for more. We know that many of these practices that were presented by Jonathan should fall under their definition of unfair practices that should then be sanctioned at, uh, by this new EU legislation. And we need to be there and we need to push for more. So please support the EU Right to Repair campaign. And I think we need to conclude the session to, uh, go over to the next, next section. Thank you for your attention and for your participation. And next we have the Mortal Sins of Repair. Bye.