 Okay, everyone. Hello. Thank you. I think we can get started first. I would like to introduce myself. My name is Nika and I'm a freshman here at Tufts University. I am a member of allies and I'll be moderating this panel. I would like to thank everyone again for joining us today and taking the time to come and learn about the commercial commercialization of space and its security implications. So we have discussed space as an arena for political conflict and warfare, but it is increasingly important in the private sector. Companies use satellites to provide us with GPS long distance communication and weather forecasting. Here to discuss commercial operations in space and the relationship to space security is Catherine Monson, the CEO of KSAT Inc., for Kongsburg Satellite Services. KSAT is a world leading provider of ground station services for satellites, rocket launchers, and experimental spacecraft, supporting over 96% of commercial satellites launched into non-geostationary orbit, or NGSO, during the last two years. However, before leading KSAT Inc., Ms. Monson attended a Boston-based university two miles north of Harvard where she was involved in a small unknown organization called Allies. So rather than welcome Ms. Monson, we'll like to say welcome back, Katie. Wonderful. Thank you so much for your introduction. So I'm thrilled to be back at the Civil Military Roundtable. As I'm sure has been discussed, the history of Allies really comes out of September 11th, actually, and students at Tufts realizing that so much of the policy that came out around 9-11 was going to require good communication between civilian counterparts and then the military leadership as well. I do think that there have been, you know, as an alumnus, as an alumna speaking, I do think that there have been wonderful connections that have been made through Allies throughout the years. So I do think that I am a good example of Allies having a successful mission statement. So really helping to build those bridges across from civilian to military leadership domains. So talking about space, I represent industry today. So I do work for a commercial company, and we'll talk a little bit about how commercial industry plays a huge role in the space community, but also the space domain more generally. So as was mentioned in the introduction, I lead a company called KSAT Inc., which is the U.S. branch of a larger company called Kongsburg Satellite Services. So I'm going to go ahead and give a little bit of background since, you know, spaces, as all domains, there are sub-specialties and space is not unique in having different sub-domains. So what we do at KSAT is we provide communication support. So all of the satellites that are in orbit, they're collecting some type of data, but in order for that data to be helpful, we have to get it back to Earth. So at KSAT, what we're providing is that satellite ground communication service. So this is a good picture here that shows just how connected all of our various, all of our various entities can be. So KSAT here represents these ground antennas that you see in the bottom right-hand corner. So we're providing communication link from a satellite to the ground. So that satellite may also be talking to a moving vehicle. They may be talking to aircraft. They may be talking to cruise ships. They may be, you know, viewing as we see here, potentially a disaster area. So really what we're doing is we're providing this backbone that allows all of these kind of moving entities to be able to collect global information sets and get that back to whoever, whoever can be helpful for here on Earth. So in order to provide that service, we operate very globally. So we operate at the poles. Our satellite station up at Svalbard, also known as SvalSat, is actually at 70 degrees north. So it's fairly significantly far north. As you see here, you know, this is the top of Alaska. And we're, you know, another two hour flight north of where Alaska ends at Prudhoe Bay. We also are the only commercial entity to operate in Antarctica. So we operate a station where we access from Cape Town to a location that we call Trollsat or Troll Station. And then all of these locations in between. So the reason we have such a diversified global network is that we're providing communication services to satellites that are predominantly in NGSO. Most of those satellites that we serve are in Leo, so low Earth orbit. What that means is, you know, they're traveling 17,000 miles per hour. What that means for a lay person is if you stand at the earth and you were able to see, let's say an iridium, an old iridium satellite that was coming over the horizon, it would take, you know, somewhere between eight to 12 minutes to go completely over the horizon based on whether it's going directly above you or kind of slight on an incline. So these are spacecraft that are moving incredibly quickly. So in order to have good communications, you need to have a global network. So, you know, we talked about that global back that backbone, the backbone is incredibly important because without that communications link you just have very expensive metal and orbit. So that's true whether it's a commercial satellite or whether it's a government satellite. So being able to have a satellite come over an area of interest to collect the information that it's looking to collect. And then as quickly as possible come over a ground station so that that information can be transported back to, you know, potentially it's an on-prem server. Most people actually are pushing data into the cloud now as well. So the point is where you actually can start to make that data helpful. So, you know, folks are running analytics on it, they're doing, you know, various information extraction procedures to be able to figure out exactly, you know, how is this image or how is this data set helpful. So that was an introduction to case set to give you a little bit of background on who I am and what my, what my day to day role looks like. In this conversation, we're really going to focus on what is the role of industry. So there have been a couple mentions throughout the conference this morning about the role of industry. And really, there's kind of a three-party relationship that happens, particularly in the US, but you see this model replicated in other places to a lesser extent as well. You know, the United States is fairly dominant in terms of space industry. So we can just for case set alone, half of the work that we do is in the United States, and everything else in the world represents half. So the United States is clearly still the space leader when it comes to the commercial industry. We do have three really kind of distinct bodies here though. So we spent a lot of time talking about the Defense Agency. So specifically talking about the US Air Force, the US Space Force. I was happy to hear that there was good representation from the US Navy. They often are not overlooked as maybe a little strong, but lay people are less likely to realize that the Navy has strong space presence as well. We haven't spoken so much about the intelligence community, but the national reconnaissance organization, the NGA as well. Their intelligence community also obviously has quite a strong interest in having space-based information platforms. So that's the, that's kind of the circle here we spent a lot of time talking about. The civil agencies, I think we, it was covered a little bit in the last presentation. NASA certainly is a big player. NOAA though is also a big player. So the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, make sure I got that acronym right, but NOAA. So they're responsible for weather. They, you know, obviously have big weather assets, both for earth weather, trust for weather, but also space weather. So the civil agencies do play a big role in the space community as well. And then industry is really the foundation that supports both of these other sectors. So we can spend a little bit of time talking about the various ways that industry is contributing. So we've talked a little bit about SpaceX. They've come up a few times. This is actually a picture from down on the Cape. I was taken yesterday. This is the crew one, the Crew Dragon. And this is an interesting representation of just how dependent NASA is on commercial industry. And I shouldn't say dependent because it really isn't interdependence. So SpaceX is just as dependent on NASA because without NASA being a core customer, SpaceX would not have a way, you know, to quote, pay for the party. So NASA is the biggest customer for the commercial crew. They created the commercial crew program. They were able to finance the, you know, the development that SpaceX has put in here to the Dragon Space Capsule. And there's also other players in that commercial crew. So Boeing with the Starliner program as well as here in Nevada Corporation is trying to get into that game with their dream chaser spacecraft. So NASA has been a big customer that's really supported the development of commercial industry and likewise commercial industry has then been able to very quickly. We actually, you know, really just across the board quickly, but quickly, particularly if you look at the development of space programs in the past, you know, this development of new programs is moving faster than it ever has before. So for Dragon to be launching the first commercial crew, hopefully tomorrow if the weather holds. And I say the first commercial crew because technically the one that happened earlier this spring was a demo so that was still a technology demonstration to confirm that the capsule was ready to go into operation. So this is our first big operational mission tomorrow. So when you see this picture, you know, SpaceX is certainly one, you know, they're certainly the lead the prime contractor that holds that relationship directly with NASA. But there are many other companies that are behind the scenes supporting those efforts. So commercial industry really is a very interdependent industry segment in that each company has really and commercial industry is so technically specialized that each company really specializes in a subsystem so case that we provide ground communications. So, you know, tomorrow's mission represents a huge success for SpaceX but also a huge success for many of the other partners that support their mission. So here's a picture actually from the Maxar constellation. So this is a picture from Beirut. It ran on many front pages after the disaster. This is an image that is only possible because of space based platforms. So this is an image that exists in the public domain. Many of you have probably seen Maxar images on Google Earth. So Maxar has a contract with Google to provide the images that make up the Google Earth data set. You'll also see quite a few of those images if you have a Chromecast they'll circle through every now again. So Maxar is a great example of a company that provides optical imaging so they provide a lot of the pictures, the optical pictures that are used both by commercial business. So, you know, folks like news organizations are really thrilled to be able to have images such as these. NGOs are often looking at these types of images to plan their response plans because that is a way that they can get objective data in situations where there may be rapid change. Military's intelligence organizations are also, you know, the NRO is a huge customer of Maxar's. So Maxar is a big supplier into the intelligence community base. So all of these space based images are, you know, this is one set of imagery. This is an optical image. There are also, you know, companies that provide synthetic aperture radar, SAR images. The nice thing about the SAR images is that you can still take imagery in situations where you may have cloud cover or you may, you know, it may be dark. So clearly this picture would not look nearly the same if it were nighttime where the SAR image is able to still get you an idea of what's going on for those other hours of the day when you're not able to get this, you know, pristine beautiful colored image. So this is an example that was discussed earlier. So this is actually the Northrop Grumman MEV one. This is the first commercial publicly announced successful satellite in service in orbit servicing attempt and it was very successful. And as we talked about earlier though, this is an interesting technology because anytime you have one spacecraft approaching another spacecraft. There certainly is a use case for that spacecraft being a helpful spacecraft and potentially providing fuel potentially making repairs, but there is also then an offensive capability when we talk about security that, you know, you could then start to attack someone else's satellite in orbit. So we are I think on an interesting kind of brave new world when it comes to some of these in orbit servicing technologies because most of this technology can be used for good, and it can also be used in a way that would be considered potentially high risk or could be used in a way that could be used for making to assets. So it is an interesting time in the space industry as the technology continues to accelerate and we see more and more that's possible. There is really a double edge sword of technology that could be developed with one use case in mind may have risk associated with that technology becoming more viable. The big point I wanted to make today is the legacy us national security space assets were large predominantly geo so a geostationary orbit means that it is moving at the same. Relative to earth in such a way that that geo asset is looking at the same part of the world all of the time. So many of the US national security assets were large satellites they were designed for many many years of operations. They are incredibly expensive to build. They are incredibly therefore expensive and risky to launch. And that was really the legacy of the US national security space infrastructure. What's changed in the last, you know, three four five years is really a move and a shift away from as general height and says large big fat juicy targets. So, you know, when you have something that is, you know, clearly a US national security asset, everyone in the world is able, you know, who has any type of ground based radar capability is able to track that. It's very public domain knowledge when launches occur. So it's not tricky to figure out when there are national security assets that are launched. If we in the general public can know that that means our adversaries know it as well. So really the paradigm has been to shift away from these big fat juicy targets and more to have plain, you know, hide and plain site type of paradigm. Or one of the other ways that it is often described as operationally resilient. So to start to create a lot of resiliency by building and redundancy by building in multiple layers. I'll play out in a couple of ways. This is a very busy graphic that shows all of the various layers of communications between different assets. So you see here again we have our ground stations that's obviously where where I spend most of my time thinking is this communications link, but with various orbits that you can be and you can have satellites that are talking to Geo you can have satellites in Leo that are talking directly to the ground you have satellites that are talking to operational assets in the field. So really to start to create this very distributed architecture so that you have many, many, many communication nodes that are communicating with each other. And the idea here being is that if someone took out one of these Leo satellites. So that clearly will have an impact on the communications network, but it isn't so it isn't such an extreme thing as compared to someone taking out a GPS satellite and suddenly have billions of dollars that has disappeared in an instant. And just no GPS capability so the idea is to really distribute this architecture among different planes that is more operationally resilient because of that redundancy. This example of you know was discussed earlier on the second panel on the first panel this morning about entanglement I think was the term that was used increasingly commercial what is commercial space and what is military space is becoming that mine is very blurred. So there are very good examples of commercial companies who may have commercial payloads that they're, you know, that they are creating data that is available, you know, to anyone who would want to go buy it. And then there may be subsets of data that are only sold in certain communities. So this is an example that was actually in space news and I highly recommend reading space news it's a fantastic free website for anyone who's interested in following what's happening in space world. So this was from October 5 and this is the Space Development Agency announcing that SpaceX has essentially won an award to host a US government payload on the Starlink network. So, SpaceX is building a telecommunications platform it's called Starlink. So this is a good example of that entanglement where you have what is essentially a commercial venture that may have a government and customer, but it's hosting a payload that is very specifically a national security payloads the ability to detect and track ballistic and hypersonic missiles. So now you have a system where you have multiple payloads on one spacecraft. That's really where we start to think about the that's this is a good example of entanglement because all of a sudden you have one spacecraft that I think one of the panelists earlier mentioned as soon as you make that entanglement is that a fair target. So I think there's also an argument that can be made, frankly that there's starting to be more, it's a bit extreme probably to call it mutually assured destruction but as you start to see more entanglement within the space domain. So people who rely on Starlink for communications would also be impacted then by that network being targeted and potentially disrupted. So I think we see a couple examples across the board of where we have a lot of entanglement. There is, I think, you know, a good example here to which crosses international boundaries. The US Air Force is hosting a payload on two satellites that the Norwegian government is paying for so the Norwegian government is launching two satellites in a highly elliptical orbit that kind of hangs over the poles, if you will, to provide communication services for folks who live in areas where you know it's it's financially impossible I would say to be able to create a terrestrial communications network so that he own network is going to provide telecommunications for people who live in extreme environments in Norway. And likewise the US Air Force has an interest in monitoring the Arctic as well so that was a convergence where a US government payload is now being flown on a Norwegian government satellite so there are quite a few examples to when you cross international lines as well. We talked earlier. I think, again, that first panel talked a lot about there was a conversation about some of these kind of high traffic areas. So this is an example of some of the high traffic areas as we start to look outside of Leo outside of Leo. So, the folks who are able to control these, these are very unique geographies where unique space addresses. And so, L one is going to be a place that is very important. And it's whoever can control access to that space is going to have an advantage in that they're going to be able to get the science data that they need from that location. So if you can control access to that location, then you'll have an advantage so a good example of that that actually is more of a commercial or sorry to me a civil government application. Is this satellite that I have here on the left is the space weather follow on so it's called SWIFO. It's a branding program that Noah is launching. They're actually in competitive bid processes right now. And SWIFO the spacecraft's job is to protect earth and protect is actually not the right word it's to provide early warning for space weather events. So this satellite will go to L one, and it's going to provide a very crucial service. So in the briefing documents that explain the kind of bid competitive bid process for industry. So they are talking about why is SWIFO important and really the kind of concern is that a large solar storm could knock out the power grids in the United States. And their estimate was that it would take about four years to rebuild the power grids if we had a very severe solar storm, which is altogether possible and it happened most recently in the 1800s. It hasn't happened most recently while we've had modern power systems. But if it were to happen again it would have a huge impact on really any, any area that that was impacted by this high level of radiation. So think about, you know, obviously, there's a direct security implication of war and space but there are also implications and how do you protect yourself from not being vulnerable. And if you have an entire country of people who do not have power for four years. That's clearly a position of vulnerability. So there are many levels at which the security implications play into the space domain, whether actually being a very soft and overlooked. So the really the point here though is that there are one is important because it's a place where you can station keep essentially you can spacecraft keep without having to have a lot of propulsion to keep you in this location because of the gravity impact of Earth and the sun. So, to be able to have spacecraft in L one and have them safe will be an important port, if you will, for the future. The moon is another such example of it is important for folks to be able to have access to the moon to be able to, you know, the United States with the Artemis program we are investing in going back to the moon. I am often asked by folks, you know, why are we going back to the moon. And why, why is that something that is impressive since we already have been there. And if we went there with the Apollo era. You know what's different now. And I think the really important thing to mention about what's different with the Artemis program as compared to the Apollo program is the huge amount of money that went into the Apollo program. The peak of the Apollo program 2.2% of the federal outlay was going into Apollo to put that in perspective if you think about the Manhattan project which clearly was of utmost strategic importance with, you know, the United States coming out of World War two and positioning with, you know, this this last 100 years Manhattan program was Manhattan project was just incredibly important for our positioning that project was only 1% of federal outlay so the Apollo program was twice as expensive. As the Manhattan project when you think about relative government budgets. Obviously it was something that I don't think there's political will now in the United States has been that kind of money going back to the moon. So what's different about Artemis this time around is really leveraging commercial industry. So, most of the, all of the development is being done by private companies. This first set of missions is actually the commercial lunar payload systems, commercial lunar payload services, excuse me, clips is what it's called. And clips is, you know, a program that for example, you know, the folks who are headed who are primed to be the first to go to the moon for the clips program is a company called intuitive machines based in Houston. By contrast, their budget is less than $100 million. So it's a huge dramatic, you know, order of magnitude reduction and the cost to do these things and that the government is able to promote these programs because private industry is also able to commercialize it with commercial customers as well. Another example of that is with the Crew Dragon that we talked about. There is a Japanese billionaire who is going to be the first private citizen who has bought, you know, his trip into space on Crew Dragon. So SpaceX is able then to monetize that development and be able to pay their team and be able to, you know, monetize based on their internal investment with now a new Virginia and commercial market. And all that means is that the government is then able to do more because essentially there's commercial market that is offsetting some of that cost basis. But we're not the only ones are, you know, are having a huge kind of growth in space. There are many different programs now internationally, where new folks are entering the space domain, and folks that you know, previously would not have been. They may not have seen as peers in in space development. This is an example of the UAE space program heading to Mars. The thing that's interesting about this though is again us commercial companies are often behind the scenes helping many of these nations start their space programs. There are many many regulations in terms of what is itar restricted. And there are still quite a lot of private US industry that is involved in, you know, in continuing to support some of these missions. So that's another interesting aspect of this is the US industry isn't just supporting the US national space programs they're also supporting UK space programs ESA space programs, as well as some of these new bridging space markets. So do you think that we're in an interesting, we're in an interesting point in time, as we was discussed in the last presentation. Much of the space law was really created in a very different atmosphere so it was created when space was the domain of nation states, as more commercial companies are very active in space, a lot of those regulations will be tested. And there's a lot of opportunity for folks who are interested in policymaking to enter because every time we're doing something new we're creating precedent. So I do think that we have seen a huge amount of change in the US space policy in just the last 10 years. One example of that is when I was at Spire, we built we chose to build our satellites in the UK and Glasgow, because at that point in time, the policy in the US was that you cannot export your satellite. So that's part of the United States which meant that you couldn't launch with other launch providers you'd have to launch with an American rocket company. That has since changed so now you have American companies who launch with the Russians, they launch with PSLV, which is the Indian is a big workhorse for the Indian program. There are quite a lot of commercial companies now that have really, you know, commercial companies are essentially trying to figure out how to close their business case so they're really looking at what is going to make the most sense for them financially and it may not be the American market so they may be looking for suppliers outside of the US and so the US regulatory bodies have had to really keep up and have to be really nimble to understand okay why. What's happening, and there's a really interesting tension between helping US industry succeed so some of these small startup companies that you know need to be able to do things that are flexible and nimble and be able to take the cheapest solution on the market with this how do we protect any national security interests that we may have and also how do we protect our US industry. So there's an interesting tension that continues to evolve as more and more companies and more and more countries have more capabilities. So we've got some really interesting international policy that's being set. So this is an example of a company, essentially that was large shares, they did a funding round in Luxembourg. So if you are a country right now like Luxembourg that has a lot of cash but you don't have a lot of natural resources, you could imagine that you might position yourself to try to extract natural resources from space. So Luxembourg has actually been a very interesting player in some of these fundraising rounds where they have invested in US startups as a way to try to figure out what is going to be their place in terms of natural resource extraction of space in the future. So again, really interesting, a really interesting dimension where you have national governments taking some of their, you know, sovereign wealth fund and investing in US private startups. I do think we'll continue to see quite a lot more of this in the future. In fact, there are good examples even most recently at the British government investing in the company one web taking them out of chapter 11 bankruptcy filings as a way to essentially now get into, you know, a national capability, but it, you know, it is a US company. So, a lot of really interesting private public type of investment conversations will continue to unfold I'm sure. So this is actually a picture of a spire satellite. I'm gonna take a step back just for students who are listening in today. As a quick pitch so I am a Tufts alum, I'm an allies alum. When I was at Tufts, I did not think that I would ever be in the space industry. I did study international security so I have a degree from international relations with a focus really on defense policy. And I thought that my path was going to be in the Pentagon. And I did an internship in the Pentagon and realized I did not like the pace of the Pentagon. So I guess my advocacy here for you all today is that you don't have to be working in Washington DC, in order to still be thinking about international relations and security defense policy. I do quite a lot of policy work on a day to day basis, mostly around radio frequency spectrum allocation. And it's all stuff that is brand new we're setting new precedents it's quite exciting. And I get to live in beautiful Boulder County I don't have to live in Washington DC. I think that there are a lot of opportunities to create to really find your place in terms of international relations and policy that are not just limited to traditional think tank jobs or traditional government agencies. So the space industry really is front running, because the industry is developing so quickly. There are huge opportunities many of these companies are hiring. So we get to work on really incredible programs that have, you know, many of them are milestone many of them are the first of their kind. And you work with very smart, very talented very passionate people. So that's my pitch for joining industry. For those of you who are looking for an alternative to just what I think I thought were the options when I was at Tufts. There are many, many ways to still have these types of conversations and be passionate about these types of issues. So they're, you know, these are just a couple pictures of various applications for space data. This one is Arctic ice monitoring which has implications for shipping routes. Obviously anything that is traveling so ships, you know, cruise ships shipping line ships, airplanes, all of those vessels can be tracked from space, which has implications for financial markets. So this is a picture actually that showed up on the front page of the New York Times from Myanmar so it shows, you know, the government's actions in Myanmar which was crucial and being able to hold various government parties accountable. And then obviously, we talked about there are so many different international players. So this is in, this is in Kazakhstan actually this is launching from Baikonur. This is the Indian PSLV that we talked about. And then this is actually a new company called Rocket Lab that is launching from New Zealand. So there are many, many countries now that are involved in the space industry. Rocket Lab being a, you know, purely private company so that isn't a New Zealand launch capability that is a private company that just happens to be based in New Zealand. And then coming full circle back to KSAT, I mentioned that we operate at Svalbard. So we operate at this location that is incredibly far north, it's 70 degrees north. To unpack that a little bit for you, the reason that that's an important location is that many NGSO satellites, so many satellites that are in non geostationary orbit, which means they're moving relative to Earth, are in a synchronous orbit, which means that they are going up and over the poles. So that transit takes about 90 minutes. And Svalbard is so far north that that north pole that we get to see the satellite every 90 minutes. So having communications at that location provides good mission planning opportunities because it's, you know, it's every 90 minute planning interval. It allows us to also provide from just one, you know, one location service for hundreds and hundreds of satellites that are in that synchronous orbit. So, you know, I share that because with communications, we end up serving space customers, but we're also very anchored to the ground. So we end up working in many different jurisdictions with many different types of countries as well as companies. And then for me personally, you know, for folks looking for kind of how did they figure out what is going to be the right work life combination. We get to travel a lot when we're working in ground communications because we're working so globally so I spent quite a lot of time up at Svalbard, which is a fascinatingly beautiful place to be. So I do again, just want to make a pitch for folks who are interested in international relations interested in security policy there are really fascinating opportunities in the space commercial industry side as well. So with that I will pause and see if we have any folks with any questions. Well, thank you so much for your presentation and as well as the job pitch. Yeah, we're going to trans transition into a Q&A session so while we let the audience kind of gather their thoughts and submit their questions I have some general questions to asking Miss Monson. So is outsourcing near orbit space launches and operations to private companies going to be the future, and what areas do you see the private sector taking over from militaries and governments, and what areas do you see the government staying in. It's a good question so I think we need to be really careful when we talk about words such as outsourcing because even in the Apollo era you had private companies that were deeply involved in these missions. So really private industry is is the backbone regardless of you know what the contract model looks like so the difference that we've seen most recently is much more again about contracting so whereas there were private companies that built the space shuttle. NASA had people who were operating it and that was really where that demarcation point happened with Dragon with you know the crew one launch tomorrow, SpaceX does the full nuts to bolts, which means that they have a service level agreement with NASA. So I do think that we'll continue to see government rely more on private industry to do more of the operational piece. And then when it comes to, you know, national assets there are absolutely satellites that are focused purely on applications that can only be described as you know a national security application. There are always going to be satellites that are owned by the government that are operated probably by government contractors so again those could be industry folks they might not be, you know military or civilian government employees they may be contractors. But all of those programs will will continue to exist in the in the classified domain whether or not there's a contractor involved or not is usually the last of an important question it's much more about. There are, there are cases for military assets to fly on commercial satellites, and then there will be cases where they will be dedicated, you know, government assets. So be it Air Force Space Force or even intelligence community assets. Great, thank you just one more question. How do you see future space conflicts impacting commercial satellites should the private private sector be concerned, or are they taking precautions to protect their space assets. Great question. In general, there's such a combination of, you know, commercial companies supporting US government that there is a very healthy and good exchange around security so security is an incredibly important factor in any of these programs. Cyber security being, you know, probably foremost on that list case that you know speaking from my experience, we are critical infrastructure which means we get support from intelligence community resources so you know there are folks who are aware of what we're doing, who are helping us make sure that we are staying protected and we're aware of any threats that make the incoming toward us. So absolutely I think with that blurred line, there is a lot of responsibility that commercial industry, both takes, but then also there's a lot of support that the US government gives to commercial companies to ensure that the national assets that are being created for commercial companies are protected and safe. So it is a two way street. I think it is interesting because the more that we see the government rely on a service level agreement the more risk private companies take on. So when you're a large private company that's publicly traded like a Raytheon or Lockheed Martin. And that could be interesting right if if they're losing assets potentially in some type of conflict. And they have a service level agreement so the government doesn't own the risk of those assets being destroyed it will be interesting to see how that would play out in the, you know, in the financial markets. SpaceX is still a privately held company so that's a little bit of a different example so then if they had an impact to their business their shareholders would be impacted. I think it's an interesting question as we see more of this line blurring. We haven't seen exactly how it will play out yet and commercial companies are taking on more risk. So whether or not they are accurately accounting for that in terms of how they monetize against that risk will be interesting. The insurance markets are definitely a piece that haven't been tested all together too much recently. You know, the question is still very much open. Great thank you so much. So unfortunately, we have run out of time but thank you so much miss monster for taking the time to provide us with insights on commercialization of space. The next panel will be. It has actually, there's information in the chat it's going to be China's quest for space and power which will start 345. Thank you so much.