 I think it's worth the applause because Diana has been coordinating two quite successful campaigns to stop coal power plants here in Poland and it is said she's one of the top leaders of the most significant Polish campaigns for climate and climate justice and Diana you're working at the association workshop for all beings and right now you will be guiding us through this discussion and exchange on energy security and giving this European perspective but you will not be doing this alone but we have a guest and he will be joining us online Jakob Dalouda is he already there can we see him already? Jakob Dalouda I'm having a look at the technique at the back there he is Jakob Jakob a warm welcome here from Warsaw. Thank you so much. Jakob is a member of the European Parliament for the Swedish Green Party in the European Parliament he's dealing he's a member of a committee working on transport tourism industry and energy and I think we're especially interested in the energy question here. Jakob you were also a spokesman of the youth organization of the Swedish Greens and a member of the Riksdag like the Swedish Parliament and you will give us now a European perspective on energy security and with saying that I will hand over to you Diana. Wonderful I hope it works so once again good day ladies and gentlemen and hello Jakob happy to see you I believe we can start because we don't have that much time during this debate I would like to ask you a few questions concerning the challenges of the European energy transformation in the context of the war in Ukraine as many challenges we had already been facing due to the climate crisis now have been greatly exacerbated and I believe we all understood how vulnerable we are as an economy to global crisis not only the climate crisis and I would like to ask you about the European response to this crisis how the EU can address it while aligning its response to what we believe are the European values so solidarity climate protection human rights the rule of law and of course security and what is your vision the vision of the Greens in the EU parliament what kind of solutions we should use and how you can be an actor in this process but my first question concerns security in general because the war I think forces us to reevaluate our understanding of security does the EU adopt its understanding of security to the new reality is it still only about the security of supply or perhaps more about energy independence and if so whether it should be an independence at the European level or or national level or perhaps the understanding of security goes further for example to providing the citizens to affordable energy so yeah thanks Diana and that's quite a lot of very big questions and I will try to do my utmost to address them and it's also feels very good to be able to join this conversation usually we Greens are in the position that we have to be sort of the bringer of of bad news towards consumers or citizens that we are saying well we have to take care we have to do these things that also have some other bi products that well we need to reduce the way the amount of meat that we eat and that feels maybe boring for those who like to eat meat or we have to drive less cars and that is bad for those who like to drive cars or we need to reduce reduce the amount of aviation and that's bad for those who like to go for summer breaks in the other parts of the world but in this very very instance it's actually the quite unusual case that what we have been pushing for for a very long time the transition to renewable energy is actually perfectly aligned with what we need to do in order to stop funding the Russian war of aggression on or not only Ukraine but actually Europe in its entirety because we as Greens not only in in Poland but also in other member states such as Sweden we have been saying this for decades when when Russia started to use energy as not only a source of revenue but also as a geopolitical weapon we have been opposed to this take for example the the pipelines through the Baltic Sea Nord Stream one and two that is something we as Greens in Sweden and the European Parliament strongly opposed not only because it would lead to cheaper fossil fuels in in Europe which would then be burned causing climate disruption but also because the revenues that European consumers would pay would go directly into the Russian state-owned company Gazprom which funds the Russian war machine so when I was defense policy spokesperson trying to in in the Swedish politics trying to discuss to what extent should we increase the funding of the Swedish military it felt a bit stupid that the need to expand the Swedish military was because we were paying for the Russian military so not only did we fund the military we also had to fund the Russian military we also at the same time because of that had to at the same time spend more money to pay for our own military because Russia had an increasing ability to threaten its neighbor because we were paying the salaries of those soldiers and that military equipment so for a very long time we have been saying we need to stop purchasing fossil fuels from Russia and instead expand renewal renewables for climate reasons for security reasons but also for health reasons so there have been very many opportunities for us to try to do so and now when the Russian aggression has been increasing with the events beginning in in February we now have some some difficult choices to make the the energy prices in Europe started to increase even before the war of aggression because Russia started to reduce the exports of fossil gas as a measure to show European citizens and politicians that that is something that they could do it was a it was a show of force that don't try to intervene in our increased aggression towards Ukraine because if you do we will cut we we can cut exports so don't do that because that would then from the Russia perspective lead to social unrest in Europe the problem though is that in many many parts of Europe Sweden for example and very many other member states the the national response to that was not okay let's increase with expanding renewables let's increase the expansion of energy efficiency measures let's support our citizens in insulating the homes heat pumps other measures to combat that Russian usage of energy supply as a geopolitical weapon that is unfortunately not what we did half a year ago instead there was a lot of government measures to support the citizens in helping citizens paying for that higher energy bills I can of course understand politically why that was that because if it wouldn't have been done that would have led to difficulties for the governments all over Europe but it's still very short-sighted measure what we should have done is maybe do a little bit of supporting the citizens in paying the higher energy bills but at the same time can doubling the efforts in helping citizens reduce their energy consumption in general but also at the same time increasing renewables some production of renewables is of course very long term building a new offshore wind farm that is not something that you do from one year to the next it's longer time for that but there are a lot of things that we can do in the short term especially solar panels if we would have a european program supporting citizens in installing thousands if not millions of solar panels on the routes of our houses our factories our offices if we would have supported changing the windows so that our houses don't leak energy and and helping our citizens installing heat pumps that would have strengthened us for the winter that will come now in six months and and and making us less vulnerable to to russia that is something now that the european union is doing a little bit with the repower EU package and that is of course a welcome package but it is far too small it should be much much bigger and we should be doing everything that we possibly can in order to make us less than vulnerable to a complete shutdown of exports from from from russia now currently the export from russia has been cut by two-thirds so it's actually only one third of the normal exports that is going to europe and it is possible that either we from the european side will finally have the courage to say no to all import or russia will take that decision and try to cause political and social unrest in europe by cutting the exports on their side regardless of which route we will take i'm certain that it will not be far off until we have no exports and to prove put in wrong that that decision whether it's his decision or decision that that decision will not call political cause social and political unrest in europe in order to not prove put in wrong we need to do much much more to protect us from that fossil fuels especially gas have become the center of the debate about the energy in europe right now because of the war in poland for many years the energy independence energy security um was have been perceived as independence from russia especially in terms of gas but it was to be achieved not by the gasification but by importing gas from other other suppliers so just changing the dealer instead of fighting the addiction and um we see this alarming tendency to follow this path in the EU many fossil many gas projects which had been previously scrapped are now being revived many new are proposed like lng terminals many gas power plants it's especially visible in poland and the discussion seems to be steered away from leaping past gas and investing in other other solutions rather do this ad hoc solution of just changing uh the supplier so uh where in european does you stand and um how we can change this direction if it's really so well unfortunately i would say that the european answer is i would say 50 percent good and 50 percent bad if you look at the repower package um that is supposed to help us deal with this there are some good things in it such as supporting the expansion of energy measures and renewable energy that is good of course but there's still a lot of bad things as well in it such as as you mentioned the expansion of lng terminals and i mean i can understand that it is to some extent difficult for policymakers all over europe to to not shut down all the fossil power that we have both in terms of coal oil or gas i mean i fully well know that we should have had zero emissions a decade ago that would have been the best thing for the climate but that is just not politically or or socially possible so we cannot shut them down from one day to the next um but i don't think that we should expand the terminals uh increasing our future reliance on imports of lng that is both bad for the climate but it is also a waste of money every euro whether it's private euros or or public euros or slot is for that matter is it's really a waste we need to spend every available euro or slot on supporting the the what is actually sustainable which is renewables and energy efficiency measures so um if the greens if we have our way nothing not the single euro or slot two expansion of lng terminals instead we should help citizens put solar panels on the roofs in storage energy pumps uh insulating their homes changing the windows uh working together in in villages of should we cooperate and put up a windmill and own that together creating energy communities we need to look at creating the links between energy markets i mean one of the problems with renewable energy it's that it's intermittent meaning that on some days the wind doesn't blow the sun doesn't shine there isn't water in the magazines for hydropower but every day in some part of europe the sun is shining and the wind is blowing under our water so if we create more links where we can transmit energy between our markets that makes benefits for renewable energy in danmark for example they have built so much renewables especially wind power wind power that on many days of the year they produce so much energy that they can't even sell it because there's not enough connections to the neighboring states they actually would pay to be able to get rid of the energy because they have no way to put it and as long as the windmills are turning you need to do something with that energy and they would be willing to pay germany to get rid of that energy but germany does not accept that to a full extent so we need to make more cables between our member states and poland has a fantastic potential especially for offshore wind power i can imagine that in some parts of the rural communities and in cities that you don't want to destroy the views and you don't want to put windmills everywhere i mean i think windmills are beautiful and actually make the countryside better but in some parts of our memory states that is not the case but offshore is a fantastic opportunity for producing renewables and it's also a good opportunity to sell it to your neighbors so if we would have more links between sweden danmark and finland towards poland with more opportunities to sell and buy energy and link those up with offshore wind farms on the Baltic coast kilometers away from the from the beaches so that you couldn't even see the the windmills even with the binocular that is what i would propose and the greens in the european parliament parliament are proposing to do instead of switching the reliance of fossil gas away from putin but instead buying it from dictatorships in other parts of the world and still destroying our climate so i can understand that you propose security as the energy independence from other regions of the world understood as independence within the eu with all interconnectors and so on and this brings me to to my next question because you mentioned windmills you you mentioned i mean wind turbines turbines and and renovation unfortunately as far as i know poland is the second to the last country in in the eu in terms of energy efficiency which on the other hand is it's really sad but on one hand quite sad but on the other hand it gives us huge opportunity because there is so much to do so so much we can achieve and you also mentioned the offshore wind as long as it is preceded by really thorough environmental impact assessment it can absolutely be done and i agree with you but here comes my my other question because poland has been infamous in the eu due to its problem with the rule of law and not only with the human rights and and many other things it's it's not only the case of of the judiciary system but also how the citizen rights are being limited for example when it comes to participation in environmental protection the access to information to the environmental impact assessment procedure and what worries me is the prospect of of the european authorities being more lenient and accepting the problem problems with the rule of law sacrificing the rule of law for example to to provide us with more money for the for innovation for for fighting with with energy poverty caused by the energy crisis and to accept our national recovery plan without any deeper changes to to to our law so what what is the the position what is going on in the european parliament right now when it comes to such issues not only in terms of poland but also other countries so the green group in the european parliament we are of course very strong on on this issue we are every week pushing the commission to be much more strict towards the polish government when it comes to rule of law human rights gender and and so on not only poland but also hungary however too many of our political colleagues from the other groups um do not favor that very strict method they they they don't want to do more of a balancing act in terms of not pushing the polish government too far there there is some discussions of a risk of if we push the the polish government too far that they will um make some kind of either uh fake referendum or or even just unilaterally try to leave the european union which would of course be very difficult politically in this geopolitical um and environment i mean we in the greens we think that that risk over overblown and that it's really worth it to be as strict as possible uh with both the polish government and the hungarian government we but i think we also need to find some ways of not having the economic support directly linked to the polish government but also see if we can work with local and regional governments um that are not as uh uh how to say culpable with the abuses towards the human rights situation and the judicial situation um that is not some that is not a policy area that i am personally working on so um some other colleagues uh in the european parliament other than me are are better were uh versed in how to handle those political instruments um in a better way but but but ideologically that is something that we but we are are trying to do but what i what i also think is is important is that we uh in the in the european green um family in the e gp um and supporting events like this and by that also supporting the the polish greens because in the end we cannot only solve these issues with pressure from outside of europe outside of poland it also has to be in conjunction with pressure from within poland and in that pressure the polish greens are poland's best hope not only in terms of environment and climate but also in terms of democracy human rights and the the rule of law so uh that is of course not something that that you guys need to to hear from me you you know that fully well yourselves but i i i just want the polish greens to know that we greens outside of europe are we see what you're doing and and we are so thankful for the tireless fight that you are trying to do and uh and i mean i'm i'm i'm green in a in a country where it is in many ways so much easier to be green uh in terms of logistics in terms of societal climate so for me sometimes it's difficult to to be green but if i compare that to me to some other member states it's it's a walk in the park so um i i just want you to hear those those words of encouragement not not only how important the work that you are doing is but also that we realize how difficult it is and how much in need of of our support you are given the the limitations that you face in terms of the political landscape and climate in your country thank you very much for this kind words uh i believe we all agree that to to provide europe with with security with energy security we can't sacrifice climate or the rule of law and other values such as human rights and there is something very concerning for me which is connected with repower EU and the approach of the european union to um to for example hydrogen i recently learned from my um from my ukrainian colleagues that um ukrain plan to install i think around 30 gigawatt of renewables only to provide uh you uh with the green energy to produce hydrogen you is also seeking to produce a hydrogen uh in countries of north africa uh which which shows that the there is new type of colonialism arising so instead of using the renewables in the countries to decarbonize their own economy and society it will be used to produce a very um energy um energy intensive fuel the hydrogen is um have you been addressing this issue on a european level yes and i think this is important for for two reasons uh one is the reason that you mentioned the the sort of colonial perspective that rather than than using domestically produced renewables as a way to support not only climate transition in order to reduce emissions but also reducing the energy bills for consumers in ukraine nor in poland for example but i i also think we should underestimate the health issue uh and i think we as an environmental movement in general i don't think that we have underplayed or i mean overplayed the climate perspective of fossil fuels but i do think that we have underplayed the health issues sometimes i believe that if we would have we might have been more successful if we have had put the health issues of fossil fuels first and then had the climate issue as a sort of nice bonus side effect given how how damaging it is for health to live near the the production of of production and and burning of fossil fuels and and i i i think it's it's really unfortunate if countries not only in in eastern europe but also in africa as you mentioned that people would burn fossil fuels for their own domestic consumption damaging their health and then produce renewable energy for hydrogen is really inefficient in terms of the transmission that you lose energy both in the production from a windmill towards hydrogen but also using the hydrogen in then proposing a car or a ship or a plane that you lose a lot of energy so i don't think that that that is something that we should we should push for having that hydrogen colonialism we're quickly running out of time and i would like to give our our viewers also the opportunity to ask you some questions so maybe the last thing if you could summarize the green vision of european answer to the crisis and to providing you with security what would it be i think it's it's being able to look at it short term medium term and long term and having those issues aligned i i realize that in the short term you cannot shut down coal power plants and and and fossil gas from one day to another that is something that is just not possible politically or or socially but what we should do short term is expanding the renewables that are easy to deploy quickly such as solar power but not underestimating the enormous potential in energy efficiency insulating the homes heat pumps changing the the the windows and and trying to make sure that we're not wasting energy our refrigerators tv's and so on there's so much we can do in reducing our energy consumption and then not expel wasting euros in trying to expand the infrastructure for either coal or fossil gas but instead looking long term to a future with 100 percent renewables and then aligning those those targets the short-term targets the mid-term targets and the long-term targets that is the most important role that we as greens have not only the opportunity but also there's responsibility to to advocate that you can send it but we mustn't also forget the social aspect of this even though the policy that I proposed might lead to at least in the short term increase of energy prices I don't think that the best way to solve that is taking a part of the energy bill it's much better to have direct income support to lower income citizens and then enabling that citizen to either pay that higher energy bill or doing your own local transition in insulating your home or doing something else so that is a much better way to support the individual themselves not a directed measure only towards the specific energy bill that is so much more inefficient not to support the fossil fuel energy industry at the same time yeah I think we can sum it up that the best way to to fight Putin is to install a heat pump so fight putting with heat pumps I would like to maybe use the I don't know five ten minutes that we we have five minutes that we have left to give the floor to our audience so if there are any questions I think we can move on to it really I can't see anyone there is one maybe it's more like a reflection I'm Amir Smolinskaya I'm an artist and musician cellist I like this this thing you talked about making an order of health and then about the climate in narration to people and I wanted to say that I see it's a lot of in our mind first when we are thinking about any changes which are and I feel like because of the only architecture which we have around us every day it's like we feel like we're not near the nature and we can't feel like we're a part of it and changing it could could lead to to a lot of changes which is connected with with all the climate and and good nature green stuff that's all thanks hi my name is I fully agree so do I hi my name is Kuba Bilski I have a question to you Jakob I wanted to ask because as you said hydrogen is not that cost effective well it's not that energy efficient when we convert it from renewable energy it's also problematic in the volume that it takes and recently I think you kind of diverged the funds from hydrogen vehicles to just developing generating clean hydrogen so I wanted to ask you where do you think hydrogen energy technology is going what do you think it might be used for in the future of course it's still very much up in the air but if you were to kind of speculate so one clear use case for hydrogen is to produce production of steel in in sweden we are now one of the first if not the first pilot programs of producing steel without any carbon emissions whatsoever currently steel production is 15 percent of sweden's climate emissions from one single industry steam that is three times the emissions of aviation I mean we have this discussion of flea scum in in sweden and that I understand that has reached other countries as well that you should try to reduce emissions by not fly but yeah even more important is of course the steel industry because that is three times the emissions and hydrogen from what I understand is the only way of producing steel without any emissions so that is of course a good use case but there are other use cases where you might be able to use hydrogen uh such as cars or trains where I think battery is a much better method rather than hydrogen and the way that I think that we should think about the production of of hydrogen is if we really how to say over invest in renewables meaning that we we we we dimension the production of renewables for more than we normally need so that even when the sun shines only a little bit or when the wind blows a little bit we still have enough of power because we have over dimensioned the system and then on those days when it the wind is blowing really a lot or the or the are no clouds in the sky and the sun is shining then we have a strong over production of renewables which creates a really low price for energy and then on those days we use that over supply to produce hydrogen um then then we solve many problems um at once I I believe so that we only produce hydrogen which is to some extent wasteful but then we help the situation that we we we have the need over dimensioned renewables in order to make it work also on the days with reduced potential for using the renewables hello Jacob Eva Souffin here I have a question concerning taxonomy you lost this this vote in in the european parliament concerning gas and nuclear and tax and european taxonomy it was a very sad news for poland also because uh we were we were happy that uh photovoltaics were uh for consumers were so well progressing in poland we have already one million of consumers with photovoltaics in poland we are the third country so it's unbelievable and so we we were happy of this revolution and now with this taxonomy and the war we see uh on one side the shale gas coming from the united states and we have been very strongly involved in the fight against shale gas and fracking a few years ago and on the other side we see the nuclear project progressing very quickly so it's a very bad news and do you how do you imagine the next step for this taxonomy there is nothing to do will it be another fight in the parliament uh how do you see it thanks for that great question we we we have limited availability now in the parliament we we just try to stop it and we unfortunately failed but it's still possible to stop it in the council so if if we have a good election results in in in the polish elections next time maybe with the greens being part of a parliamentary majority forming the government or even being in the government then that struggle can be even a bit easier so let's hope for a strong polish green party in the parliament and maybe in even in the government okay thank you very much i believe we we have run out of time once again thank you Jacob for being here with us and thank you very much for coming to our debate thank you thank you also thanks to you Diana and before you're finally allowed to go to lunch we will show you explain you briefly the streams before that's going to happen what are the topics but it's only two and a half minutes and then you're off for lunch so at 3 30 you're most welcome to one of the four streams one is on the power of eco feminism one is on the cities one is fighting the disinformation on tiktok and one is on the green ecological costs of the war in the ukraine so it's 3 30