 Welcome to another edition of Montpelier Civic Forum. It's that time of year again and we're getting ready for the election on Town Meeting Day, of which I always encourage you to get out and vote, even if that means getting out to your post box and putting the ballot in the post box and not actually getting out there on Town Meeting Day. But do your civic duty, do your due diligence, we've got some interesting shows this year, Parks, we've got the Public Safety Authority, we didn't get the Cemetery Commission, but we do have city budget, we have capital budget, we have school budget, we have school board, and we have city, core city budget. But tonight we're talking in District 3 and we're talking to one of the candidates and we're talking to Kerry Brown. Kerry, welcome. Thank you so much, I'm really happy to be here. Who is Kerry Brown? Tell me about yourself. Sure, well thank you. So I live on St. Paul Street, so I live in that funny little thumb of District 3, where most of it's on one side of the river and there's this little bit that kind of sticks into downtown, so that's where I live. And I've lived there for the Montpelier for 26 years and lived in our house on St. Paul Street for 22 years, I think, and we have two sons who are... How old? Well my youngest just turned 18, so they're all grown-ups now. The baby is leaving soon? Yeah, yeah, and my oldest is 22, so it's a different world having young adult children. It's not quite the same thing. Where did you come from to get to Montpelier 26 years ago? Yeah, well, so I grew up in Washington DC when I was really young and then Massachusetts, the second part of my youth, and so I've always... My family, on my mother's side, was from New England years and generations back, so I've always felt like a New Englander, even though I was actually born in the South, technically, because I was born in Washington DC. But I ended up here because my husband, who is John Odom, and who is John Odom? I know who John Odom is, but for those who do not know John Odom. Yeah, he's the city clerk in Montpelier, and just a quick aside, as I stray from my little biography here, we have talked a lot about would there be some kind of a conflict of interest, or is it a problem, you know, for me to serve on city council and him to be city clerk? And the thing that we identified, and I've spoken with other city counselors and with the mayor about this as well, is the portion of the city budget that's his, that's the city clerk's office. It would be a clear conflict of interest for me to be voting on that, which includes his salary. So I would recuse myself from that portion of the budget, and that could easily be separated out, so that I didn't have to vote on that. But you could still vote on the total budget after that had been settled? Exactly, exactly. And I mean, this is, this is just how I envision solving that problem, and if there's another better, more elegant way to do it, that we need to work out later with city staff and with city council, that's fine. But at any rate, this is something that we've thought about in address. Now 26 years ago, did you meet John here? No, so John and I, we're already married and we, we spent three years living in Portland, Oregon, and John wanted to go to Goddard. And so it's a common story I have found. People, Goddard is one of those things that brings people to Vermont. So we wanted to kind of come back to this part of the country. I really wanted to be back in New England. It felt very important to me. And so we came to Montpelier, not necessarily thinking we were going to stay for a long time. We really didn't have any kind of long-term plan. And then it's funny, he and I were just talking about this the other day. It's not so much that we decided we were going to stay forever. It's that it just sort of, we just never decided to leave. And I mean that in a very positive way. Like we got here and it felt very comfortable. And we just kind of started a life here in Montpelier. And it seemed like such a perfect place to be. And we bought a house and we had kids and it's just one of the strongest communities I've ever been part of. Take yourself to when you arrived in Montpelier. It was the second wave from Goddard. The first wave was in the 70s. It was the second wave. Yeah. What was Montpelier like at that point? I don't think the horn in the moon wasn't around. It was. It was. It was still here. Yeah. The restaurant. That's right. I miss that place. Yeah. What else defined Montpelier in those days for you? Well, I remember at least two places to get really good bagels that we don't have anymore. I miss that. There was a lot of bagel eating in my youth. And I remember downstairs video. And when we first moved here, we didn't. Below the Savoy. Below the Savoy. Like Winston. Yeah. And when we first moved here, we didn't have cable and an internet. It was the mid 90s. So we weren't streaming Netflix or anything. And we made a lot of trips in those early days to downstairs video to get a video. What are we going to watch for tonight? And so that was. I definitely miss that, but that was a different era. And you know, but I don't feel like when I think back to 26 years ago, it doesn't feel like a radically different place at all. You know, some of the scenes have changed. There's no downstairs video, but there's the Savoy is still there. But also it's the basic feeling to it is is really the same. It just feels like a very welcoming, very comfortable, small town that has a but there's so much more going on here than a than a town of its size you would expect. And obviously that's because we're the state capital and we're drawing in community from all around us. It's not just the folks that live here. And so that's one of the things I value so much about it. You were around for the classic fight at Elm and State over a McDonald's. Oh, I think we just barely missed that. I think that because I remember hearing about it. Yeah. So I think that was right before we got here. District three, most people as you pointed out correctly, most people think the other side of the river. Right. Let's go to the other side of the river. What are the concerns that you see that residents on the other side of the river have besides identity? Yeah, well, so that's that's a side. That's an area where traffic is a huge issue and there are traffic speed traffic speed and congestion as well. So so one of the things that I've been hearing about is commuter traffic people on their way to and from say national life, but other places as well that are being kind of directed through these little neighborhoods that we're not at all designed for that kind of commuter traffic and it's just becoming more and more. And so I know that's a concern for people in some of these quiet little neighborhoods who are seeing lots of traffic back up around rush hour and seeing rush hours happen, you know, which that's something that didn't happen 26 years ago. Didn't have any sense of rush hour and you definitely get that now. And so so that's definitely something that I hear about. And I know that with the proposed housing developments that they're talking about on Northfield Street, that's a huge concern for some of the folks who are living right around there is what is that going to do to the traffic? Is it going to be is, you know, Derby Drive going to be just solid cars as well as just kind of that. Had that feel of the neighborhood, you know, as well. And then another thing that I hear and the speed limit on Berlin Street, of course, is something that has been a really hot button issue that I think a lot of folks on Berlin Street don't feel is completely settled. Yeah, they feel at least it was something was done. I mean, the neighborhood work long and hard for that one. Yeah, exactly. And so that was a big win in a lot of people's eyes. And yet I think there's still I know there's a lot of concern about traffic is still just tearing through there. You know, I mean, I, I experience it all the time. I drive 30 miles an hour on Berlin Street. And there's always somebody right on my bumper, who I can tell is cursing at me. Why are they going so slow? How do you think we can address that? Or how would you recommend addressing it? Yeah, whether whether it happened or not. Yeah, would you resolve that? Yeah. I mean, I think that there we do have the flashing, you know, speed limit. So having a sign that flashes that tells you how fast you're actually going, those are incredibly helpful for helping people to slow down, because you especially on a street like that, when you're coming downhill, even more so when you really just don't realize quite how fast you're going. And and I also think it's just going to take some time for people to just kind of get used to the fact that that's actually what the speed limit is there. And with ongoing enforcement, I'm hopeful that that will just become a shift there. But it is hard because it feels like a kind of a through way, you know, and people are trying to get to work trying to get to school. What do we do about Sherwood? What do we do about Sherwood? Which is the cut? Yeah, I know that one. They're down to 302. Yeah. And imagine how those neighbors feel. Yeah, because people are cutting through there to get there. Yeah, I think that's a good example of one of those smaller neighborhoods that's taking a lot more traffic than it's probably designed for. So I'm not a traffic expert. I don't know exactly what we need to do about that. But that's the kind of thing that I think as we're thinking about overall infrastructure and any kind of development to that that we need to be thinking about doing those studies. I've heard people I mean, maybe, maybe, I mean, not on Berlin Street. No, no, not certainly not Berlin Street. That wouldn't work. But sure. Maybe, maybe Sherwood. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty windy, you know, and so I it's not that's not going to cut down on the the number of cars that are going through there. So slow it down a tad. Yeah. District three is interesting because the housing stock is so different than district two. And in a sense, district one is a more recent housing stock. But district three is if there's any part of town that's vaguely affordable, it's district three. What do you think about the housing stock and what the city can do for homeowners in district three because the problems are so different than homeowners in district two that have homes from the early 20th century. This is from the mid 20th century. And at this point, things are going wrong, you know, at the 70 year mark, that are different than things going wrong in the 100 year mark. Do you mean with people's individual houses? Yeah, with people's individual houses, with the plumbing with the furnaces. How can we reach out to those homeowners? We reach out currently and do help with energy adjustments and things like that. Would you see the push towards energy conservation extending to those houses on the other side? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there isn't there aren't any houses that that's not going to be appropriate for. And in terms of, again, this is an area where you're going to hit me not knowing the details about the kind of financing that there's that's available, you know, financial support. But upgrading a house to increase its energy efficiency is there are some things you can do that don't cost a lot of money. But for the things that are really going to make a big difference, that's a pretty significant investment. And so it's trying to do whatever we can to make sure that there's some kind of support for as for as wide a range of people as possible. I think is important. And I so this is the kind of thing where Montpelier doesn't have the funding to be able to do this by itself, but there's support at the state level. And hopefully, there's some kind of other support that we can advocate for that might be helpful with that. I also think that as we're looking at our infrastructure upgrades and developments, we need to be thinking about exactly the kind of thing that you're saying where you've got house, it's a different kind of situation in the house in its neighborhood with 150 year old houses than a neighborhood with 50 75 year old houses. And so just to be conscious of that whatever it is that we're putting into place or we're upgrading that it's going to be something that makes sense. Still in whatever we can 50 years from now 100 years from now as much as we can predict that rather than just kind of patching up what we have and hoping for the best. Well, we have a new energy consultant position that's been written into the budget. Yeah. Would you see that consultant? Steering towards your neighborhood, steering towards the neighborhood on the other side? Hope so. Yeah, absolutely. Because I think that that you're absolutely right. There's a different kind of houses over there, different kind of housing stock and the infrastructure needs are going to be different. So I hope so. I expect that they'll be looking at the whole city. That would be my expectation. Yeah. When the wayfaring signs came, you know, the big downtown Montpelier sign and the signs that point you in different directions. And two, there's a sign that points towards the business district beyond the Granite Street Bridge, the business district in District 3. Do you see forever it's been the illegitimate stepchild of downtown? When they light up for Christmas downtown, they don't like that strip. At least they're recognized as a legitimate area. Has that strip entered your consciousness differently in recent years than 26 years ago? Oh, yeah, I think so because I would say 26 years ago it seemed like the way out of town, right? When I first got here. And now it's not the way out of town. It's an integral part of town. But you're right that it's not like downtown. And it's, you know, there's a lot of just the way it's set up. A lot of people are kind of driving by things to get to somewhere else. And, you know, those signs are pretty interesting because some of the ways that they label things don't necessarily line up with the way that people who live in Montpelier think of these different parts of town. So that's interesting. But take that up in Montpelier alive. Yeah, exactly. That's that's fine. It's still I still like the signs and I'm glad that they're pointing people to, you know, different parts of town. So you can kind of get a sense of rather than just there's this one way if you're coming from the interstate and you turn on to the bridge by Shaw's and Sardew cheese, that seems like sort of a way into town or you can come in by the state house. But then there's there's lots of town left that you don't get to if you don't if you only turn left and go across the river. I believe and I know it actually that you represent bar hill that district three will extend on that side of Berry Street. That right? I thought it is. Yeah, OK. So well, I'll take your word for it. And that's a development. Yeah. On that side of town, a significant development, which walks me, I'm continuing east to the Elks Club. Yes. What are you feeling on that? Well, I really hope that this vote passes. What is the Elks Club that I'm referencing? Yeah. Well, so this is the piece of land that the old Elks Lodge is on with a old golf course and it's a cross from Agway. Cross from Agway. Yep, exactly. And I was actually out there the other day. There was a site visit that was held to kind of check out the site and hear from some people about some of the thoughts that different people have about what could be done with it. So the idea is that the city could buy this piece of property. I don't want to screw you were on site. I wasn't. Yeah. 100 and how many acres? 138 acres. Yeah. That's what I remember. 138 acres. Yeah. What is being discussed for that? So, I mean, I think this is actually something that's really important for people to understand, which is that nothing has been decided and there is a lot of misconception, I believe, which is very understandable because I think there have been a lot of folks speaking about what they would like to see happen on this site as though there are plans in place. But I know not from the city point of view, I mean, but kind of out of the community that sort of talk has been going on. And so I think a lot of people have gotten the idea that some sorts of decisions have already been made, even though we haven't bought the property. It's not the case at all. No decisions have been made. So, the only decision was to put this on the ballot so that the voters could decide if we want to get this bond to buy it. Your children are very young when Saban's pastor went up for sale. Yeah. Your children are now 18 and 22 and nothing has happened on Saban's pastor, but a lot of talk. Do you fear that this Montpelier being Montpelier, that these people will be talking for years about what to do with this property? Well, no, I think that's why the city should buy it. That's the key difference here, is if the city buys it, then it's our decision, then we get to decide what happens with it. And so, we have the the power and the authority to say this is what's going to work well for this community, this is what our community needs, this is the kind of the kinds of development that we want to see that express our values as a community rather than hoping that somebody else will do something that works well for Montpelier. Based on our zoning. Based on zoning. Right. Yeah. Because, I mean, zoning is a very blunt tool. There's only so much you can really accomplish with that. So, I'm hopeful that we do end up purchasing it. And then, I think we need to really step back and take the time to do a lot of public hearings, have a lot of public input. This is Montpelier. That's the city of public hearings. Yeah. But it's never, it's never quite enough. You know, it's really hard and it's really easy to hear from the same people over and over again. And I'm hoping we can find some ways to hear from some of the people that aren't the usual suspects to find out what they would like to see. The city budget. School budget. Taxes in general. This is an expensive place to live. It's a very expensive place to live. Yeah. Do you have concern about a city budget that's 9.7% and a school budget that's 4.5%? So, my concerns are about affordability overall. And property taxes are a piece of that, but they're just one piece. And so, I'm concerned about high rents. I'm concerned about the high cost of purchasing a home, as well as high property taxes, which are just really just one component of the expense of living in Montpelier. So, I'm, in general, when it comes to the budget, what I would really like it, if we could kind of step back from our usual way of thinking about budgeting and start from the end of what is it that we need and what is it that we want to do and then think about how do we find the money to be able to do that rather than starting from the point of view of how much money do we have and what can we do with it. And it doesn't mean that we can, you know, come up with pie-in-the-sky visions. I was just about to say, doesn't that end up with a gated community? Yeah. Well, I don't know. That's an interesting question because I, I don't know. I don't, that I don't really follow. What I was saying is that if taxes, first of all, housing is so expensive around here that I assume that people, excuse me, Zach, I assume that people will be moving from other communities that where the housing is a lot more than it is here and moving into our housing. Yeah. And gradually lower-income Montpelioites whose equity is sitting in that home will be replaced by two-income families and basically we will gentrify to some degree. I'm worried about that. I'm very worried about that. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're in, that's a serious concern from Montpelio. I think that's a direction we are already starting to head in. And that's part of why I want the city to be thinking about what kinds of influences it can have over how the housing works here. What kind of influences do you think the city can have over any of these income issues except for the tax rate? Yeah. Well, we can have say over the kind of housing that we have here to some degree. So one way is to purchase that Elk's Lodge property, in which case if we want affordable housing to be on that property, we can be in control of making it happen. And we can also look at zoning and look at if there are possible changes to zoning that are going to make it more conducive for people to build the kind of housing that's going to help with that. That's something that we can do like the, and you know we'll see what the zoning, what zoning proposals are coming down the pike that might affect that. And then there are, I suspect that there is not as much that the city can do on its own as I wish I, as I wish it could, but that I think that there are some partnerships that we can have with the state. There are probably some changes at the state level that we can advocate for. And again, this is an area where I don't know a lot of detail about what could be done, but I know that there have got to be ways to do this and I don't want us to just kind of throw up our hands and say well that's just how it's going to be and let it happen around us. Let's go back downtown again. In the budget, in the capital budget this time, is a light at Barrie and Maine. And again, the idea being that it's nary and possible to get from Barrie East West, I'm sorry, during certain times of the day. And then when they put that light in, they're going to retime the lights, all three lights, so that it makes a smoother traffic flow. That makes sense to me. Yeah, if it works that way, that would be great. Confluence Park is in there. Confluence Park being that area behind the Shaw's, down towards the river, and there's a discussion of re-evaluating the dams in the river to actually lift the river. And they're talking about the possibility of being able to put kayaks and canoes into the river. That's in the budget. The parking garage is over. What other changes would you like to see downtown that might improve our downtown, not only for residents but for merchants and for visitors? Well, I mean, I think that that we're on the right track. We're thinking about things like traffic and improving the way traffic moves through there. If there are ways to reduce the amount of traffic that's going through, I'm not a traffic engineer. I don't know how that would be, but I think that's something to think about because we're just seeing more and more all the time. And we need to make sure that it remains really walkable downtown as well. I think we do a pretty good job with that once you're downtown, but to be able to kind of walk into town. If you live on Northfield Street and there's a sidewalk and then there's not a sidewalk and then there's a sidewalk, you know, we need to, and I know that the city is working on plans to kind of take care of that around town. But those are the kinds of things that would help. And the last year, we went into, we got rid of the school resource officer. We set up a committee that was studying Mount Pilier Placing. What's your feeling on Mount Pilier Police and its relationship with the schools and with with the public in general? Yeah, so I think in general, police departments, not necessarily the Mount Pilier Police Department specifically, but in general police departments need to be really focusing very hard on their relationship with the community and on the role that they play in the community. And I think that we as a community also need to be thinking about what exactly is it that we want from our police and I think there's been, I mean I know there's been a growing trend towards asking police departments to take care of all kinds of things aside from law enforcement. They're, you know, settling disputes between people. They're they're acting like social workers. They're acting as, you know, mental health counselors practically in some cases. And I think, and it's not, I don't think it serves any of us all that well. So I would like us to think about what are, again, what are the community needs and what's the best way to meet them. And sometimes a police officer is the best way to meet it. Sometimes it's not a police officer. And in the last budget we shared a social worker with Barry who rides around with and works with our place close to hand in hand. In this budget we have written another social worker position as well as a peer position which I'm not sure what that position would do. But I think there is a recognition of exactly what you said. And you're on the same page as the rest of the council that's in support of Chief Pete's vision of community-based placing. He has a community engagement officer on his direct team now whose role is to liaise on with the average citizen. You have copy with the cop and all of that thing. Would you be supportive of that? Oh yeah, yeah. I think that's definitely the the direction that we need to go in. But I think we also need to be really looking at the other kinds of community resources and supports that we're providing for people. And that sometimes there are, you know, it's there are people who are going to have needs that can't be met by the police department even by a social worker from the police. You know and so we need to make sure that the connections between if the police are the ones who have the first contact with somebody who's got those needs or connections with them in mental health services and other kinds of community supports are strong enough that they can pass them off and and make that link rather than still asking an employee of the police department to do it when it's may or may not be the best one to do it. They actually carry a card on them that has all of the numbers of social services in our area. Good. So they are ahead of that curve at this point. What do we do with the homeless population and with beggars on the street and that sort of thing? Yeah. How do we best address that as a community? Yeah. What's what's your feeling on that? So I don't have any easy answers to that. Obviously nobody does but this is something that's changed in the time that I lived in Montpelier for sure and and I think it's it's reflective of much broader changes that are happening in in our whole society and growing income disparities and a lot more people feeling like they just don't have a place and we're clearly not meeting their needs and so I'm not an expert in this. I don't know exactly what their needs are but I think we need to be finding out from the folks who work directly with the homeless people what it is that they need and what they want and and asking them. Not that no one's ever asked them. Well we do have a task force, a citizen's task force. We do have a task force that has a budget actually. Yeah exactly yeah and so I think that that's a that's a great place we also have you know another way and we have other community resources who are working. Yeah exactly and so finding out so what is it you know not I hear so many people have like big ideas about we could do this we could do that but that don't necessarily come from the people whose needs we need to serve. So that's what I that's what I think we really need to find out and then I think a lot of it is just really basic immediate stuff like we need public restrooms downtown that are accessible we need people need to know where they are I know there's a committee that's been working on restrooms or maybe there's a plan for a committee I'm not really sure where that stands but it's written actually okay into this budget. Okay so it hasn't has it has its place yeah yeah formally yeah well I believe it's in the capital budget. I think that's that's good but then also people need a place to do their laundry in a place to store their stuff in a place to take a shower. To do their laundry yeah there's one on Elm Street there's one on Berry Street. Yeah but they need money to be able to do that and they need you know we need to find out if what else it is that they need to see this is here again me saying what I assume people's needs are but that's the kind of thing that we need to we need to find out but I think we need to focus on meeting people's immediate day-to-day needs but then also be thinking about looking at the kind of the long-term structure of the housing in Montpelier and are there are the things that we can do to make sure that we have a variety of people living here who can afford to live here. As a city council person the first in the spring you'll be facing the issues from these commission that was looking at the police the committee that was looking at the police I want to highlight three of them and ask your opinion. Okay. Decriminalizing intoxication public intoxication yeah are you in favor of that? I'm in favor of that. Why? Yeah so in in general my bias is going to be towards fewer things being criminalized than more things that's just where I come from as a person I think we there are not there are a lot of problems that aren't solved well by making them into a crime and and that just seems like one of them to me so I mean if there's if someone's causing a problem with their behavior and they happen to be intoxicated then you know their behavior is the problem but just the intoxication itself. So you would change laws that are affected by the behavior. I'm thinking public intoxication in Mount Pylir aren't the people in that parklet they're people outside of charliots at one in the morning or two in the morning howling at the moon. Yeah yeah so is the howling at the moon the problem or is the fact that they're intoxicated the problem. They're linked together aren't they? Yeah but they're not because I mean the howling at the moon is the problem in my view and so if that's you know disturbing the peace if that's causing some other whatever the problem is that's caused by the behavior that's the problem because somebody could could do those things and without being intoxicated right or vice versa so so yeah so I'd be in favor of decriminalizing public intoxication just on its own. Decriminalizing prostitution that's in that report. Yeah so so um we have an ordinance. We have an ordinance and we have a state law on it. We have yeah and we have an interesting ordinance that says that women in Mopylir can't be prostitutes it's fine for men to be prostitutes apparently. Well under state law they can't. But under state law nobody can be a prostitute and so the state law covers all of that and so it really doesn't matter whether we have that in our ordinances or not. So there's no. So this is a vestigial law is what you're saying. It is and there's no real if we want to have the question about I mean we can't really have that conversation about should prostitution be legal or not in Montpelier because that's decided at the state level. We could have that conversation at the state level and there are lots of people who are trying to have that conversation at the state level but at the Montpelier level um it doesn't really matter whether it's not. We can talk about getting rid of laws that are arcane. We can get well we can get rid of that law because it's it's moot you know it doesn't matter whether but it's it's we can get rid of that ordinance because it's it doesn't affect anything. A civilian police review board what's your feeling on that I've had council people on here saying this is what the city council has done for years and it's a very open city council that's responsive. I've read the report saying that there's more needed. Where would you fall on that if you were sitting on city council? So um I think in general that's a that's a good idea. I think having some kind of oversight that is uh that is a mixture of people from the community and government and not just and I think right now there's enough concern about police in general again not necessarily so much specifically about the Montpelier police although I know people do have concerns as well. I think it's in general a good idea. There are some people who are on the other side of that who would say that's a good idea. Why don't we just go through the voters roles and why don't we choose randomly and whoever wants to serve on that committee as you have a jury that would be a jury of your peers. It's not a jury of people who are expert in the legal profession and in terms of judging the police these would just be ordinary Montpelier people with their understanding of what public law would be. Which would you see? So something that combines the best of both of those it may be a good way to go and again I'm not going to say exactly what I think this this board should look like because I don't know enough about it. No one knows that that's it's still a concept. Yeah but in general like at the state level so I work for the state and so I see a lot of you know in the legislature they're creating commissions and boards and task forces and working groups all the time and it's pretty common to have the experts the people who have lots of experience working on it and then to include some members from the public just people at large who you know may or may not have any direct experience with this but have an interest in it and so so I do think that can often be a really good way to go about it but I wouldn't want to just you know make it all one or the other. If you were on council council people are not only on council they're on committees. Yep. Which one would you like? There's so many committees there's the parks yeah there's the libraries there's a homeless task force yeah there's a plethora of recreation there's a plethora of places that council people which would you find your interest in? Yeah I mean I'm really really drawn towards issues around housing and homelessness and you know just access to to being able to live in Montpelier so that's really where I'm very interested right now but I mean honestly all of it sounds interesting to me if I just sit down and think about it and so I'll be happy wherever I end up I don't know what the process is for deciding who gets on which committees so well I would imagine you'd be a low person on the totem point. I would that's exactly what I would think yeah. So really I don't think you have the broadest choice. Yeah yeah that's what I'm assuming. And what would you champion? What's one change? I know that everybody who runs for council has to have something in mind that they would champion in that first year. Yeah. What would it be for you? What piece of policy? What specific idea would you put forth? Well as I mentioned before about our budgeting process I would really like us to think about a needs-based budget process where we're really thinking about what are the needs of our community and then think about how we go about meeting them and as part of that having as open a process as possible for finding out what those needs are and that's not at all a criticism of the way that it's done now because I think city council is really pretty quite open about how they go about their business but that there are proactive steps that you can take to really reach out to people so that it's not just the same people who are coming to the city council meetings it's not the people who have zoom but you know to try to get that kind of input. Well the normal city council budget is incremental. I mean you're discussing on the margin. You know basically last year's figure is this year's figure plus or steady. Exactly. Exactly. You're just kind of making adjustments to what you already have. How would you evolve to that kind of budgeting from a mind frame that for years has been last year's budget is our model and we're going to either stay stable or add. Yeah it's it's it's a it would be a project and I don't know a long-term project. I don't know how other people in the council would feel about it so it may be that I'd be the only one advocating for that but it is something that I would like to speak pretty strongly for because I feel like it's really important. And I want to thank you for coming and speaking with us. It's been a great conversation and thank you for watching Montpelier Civic Forum and and the way I always begin get out and vote. Her husband will be happy if you do get out and vote. You can vote by ballot by the mail. You can vote by ballot by the hand on town meeting day which this year is March 1st. Do watch the other shows because they're really interesting. Talk to your friends, talk to your family, engage yourself. Thank you very much.