 Welcome, everyone. My name is Angela Mills. I work from the town of Amherst. This is the subcommittee TSO of the town council. This meeting is being recorded. And we'll soon be uploaded to the town of Amherst YouTube channel at this time. I would like to turn the meeting over to the chair, counselor Dorothy Pam. How do you do those present now and in the future. I'm going to call the roll and make sure that people can hear and be heard. Anna Devlin go. Present. Andrew Steinberg. Present. Anika Lopes. Present. And Shawnee Balmille. We await and Dorothy Pam here. Okay. So we have a, the agenda is being, has been changed a little bit. We will not be doing the water bylaws today because the, there was a lot of work for the town to do in transferring some of the things we said on water to sewer, and they have not gotten that finished yet. Anna, do you want to say something about the water and sewer bylaw? I think we're as exciting as they ever were. And we, yep, we're just waiting back to hear back from Billford and Amy, I think with vacations and everything, you know, we're just going to need a minute. Luckily, this is not a pressing, pressing thing so we can give a little time. What I'm hoping they'll come back with is the updated water rigs with what we've, what we were discussing prior wrapped into the document. So we'll just do the translation to sewer, which should be relatively simple. So hopefully we'll have those wrapped up in the next two meetings. I told Lynn that I would try to get them done here, not for the first September meeting, but I think the second September meeting of the council. So I think we've got a couple more meetings to, to wrap those up. So I had understood that they were going to apply the water to the sewer. You think that we're going to do that? No, no, no, sorry. So they're going to, they're going to bring it to us. We still need to discuss it and make sure that it aligns because there are some things that are slightly different. Very good. Okay. So we're also, oh, hello, Shalini. I see you here. And can you hear us and can we hear you. I just need to hear your voice. Are you talking to me? I am. Sorry, I was just looking at, yes, I'm here. Okay, so we're all here. And we just heard that the watering sewer bylaws, we will get to perhaps in the second September town council meeting. We have two major things to do today and then a few things we can talk about in upcoming actions. One is to plan for the TSO September 15th public hearing on parking regulations, as recommended by tack on Lincoln Avenue sunset Avenue and Elm. And the second one is to spend time on the engagement outreach proposal that has been brought to us by counselor Shalini Balmilne. We will then talk on other things. Is that is anyone have any comments to make on that order that we would talk about the Lincoln public hearing. And then on the other items that have just been referred to us. Is that, is that okay with everybody. That sounds good Dorothy I one thought that I did have as looking at the agenda is that I thought it might be interesting as we look and I guess I'm, I didn't talk to Shalini about this beforehand so she's not hearing this for the first time. I think as we go through the engagement and outreach proposal it could be interesting to look at Lincoln Ave as sort of a case study of how we might have applied that proposal to Lincoln Ave. Just as we're going through it, we can still discuss it first but Shalini I don't know how that sounds to you but it's that to give practical examples that might be beneficial to. And I use proposing that we actually visualize how it will apply there or do we actually use it for Lincoln project. Well that we will discuss later right now we have to do the legally required thing, which is to formally set we the September 15th as a date so that Athena can do the required ads and announcements and all of that stuff, because without that we don't have anything. Other aspects of of what we would do we would discuss I would say either with or after discussing the engagement thing. I just want to double double check. When I hear the phrase public hearing. I always say, I get confused between public hearings and public forums, and I did check the notes and it said public hearing. It is a public hearing in the public hearing is the one where there's no requirement that there be a public speaking for as long as the presentation. The hearing is so, but it's a hearing and there are definite rules in the rules of procedure regarding how to conduct public hearing. All right, so that is something that I have to find. And I think we should all know maybe. Does it is there anyone who knows how to do that quickly and just post it to our, I guess, post facto to today's meet or to next meeting, perhaps or I had them somewhere but I'm though I'm buried in paper I don't know how to get them easily. Dorothy what are you I'm sorry I'm not clear on what you're asking for the he Andy is totally right there are definite rules in the bylaws about how to hold a hearing. I don't have them memorized and I cannot lay my hands on them. Well, we're, we might I mean, we are doing whatever is officially legally required on this tonight, and there may be something in there that we have to know. Sorry about the time frame I'm sorry the time frame needed to to post. Well, it's whatever I know there is a time frame, and I know that we're in plenty of time that when we pick this date to finalize that there was enough time, but I just want to know if there are other rules that we would have to deal with tonight. I don't believe so but I can. I'll check and that would that would be very good because we just want to get this we want this thing to be smooth. I started teaching again in September and I don't want to be freaking out the first two weeks, so I want this to be done correctly and smoothly. Okay. So, the history iterate. Oh yes, Shawnee. So, I remember running a public hearing when I can't I can't hear you Shawnee I need a more volume. Sorry. So I've run a public hearing once when Mandy Joe wasn't there for CRC so I can pull up the format that she uses because it's, it had a certain order of things where you first get people to make comments and then have people to make comments in favor and then have people to make comments. I don't know if that is in the bylaws though. It's a procedure. It's a procedure. Okay. So our 14 of the PDF but page 10 of the actual document. But Dorothy there's not anything other than notifying the public through the means that were agreed upon. There's nothing else you need to do beforehand. Okay. So if it's a public hearing it does need to be in the newspaper. That's what I meant by notifying the public. Sorry so so Dorothy needs to make sure that she tells Athena so that Athena puts it in the paper and on the bulletin board. I just got a text from Jennifer Taub saying she was having trouble connecting to the TSO meeting. So I don't. I got sent the link I didn't go to the webpage for the. I didn't even go to the, you know, town council page for the public to get in tonight. What is good from the email. I just sent an invitation. Okay, good. Okay, because it could be her system there. Okay, so we, and I just to reiterate what we were told. When we voted on these wording that were the attack recommendation. I think that doesn't mean that that's what we have to end up with. That's just, you needed to have something to focus the debate on the discussion on, and that is what we have. So, I don't know whether we really whether we want to discuss the tack proposal in any more detail tonight. Whether we want to talk about further outreach. When we're talking about the engagement policy. I mean, I guess, I guess we should talk about the tack proposal, just a little bit more just so that we all agree about what it says. For when we get ready for the hearing, the public hearing. Okay. There are other other considerations that we will have I mean, honor brought up maybe no parking at all. Filford has said that's what he would like. So we don't know where this is going to go, we will have a discussion after the public hearing. The proposal that we're presenting is prohibit parking on the east side of Lincoln Avenue between McClellan Street and Amity Street, 8am to 5pm Monday through Friday. Prohibit parking on the east side of Sunset Avenue between Elm Street and Amity Street at all times. Prohibit parking on one side of Elm Street at all times. And then to revisit the parking restriction on Lincoln Sunset area for three to six months after the new UMass dorms on Lincoln and Mass Ave are open and functioning with students in them. The UMass administration has indicated that once the dorms are finished they will reopen Lincoln Avenue at Mass Ave through traffic. I know there's one area that this this kind of fuzzy it says prohibit parking one side of Elm Street at all times. And I went to take a look there are signs on Elm Street right now about parking. And I guess we'd have to kind of, I didn't I didn't write down exactly what they said it is confusing there's not much parking on Elm Street. Elm Street is to really too narrow for there to be parking. And there are very few there's only one house in that block on the south side, and sideways house, maybe two houses on the north side. But I think maybe it's no parking and it may be that the parking now is more restrictive on Elm Street than what this is here. I have to really do have to check that. I think Dorothy what we need to make sure is that and I believe we did this last time is that the, basically the public needs something to either agree or disagree with. Right. And that's why we need that clear proposal and so I believe that what we went with was the tack proposal. That's what I just read the tack. Yeah, no I understand but in our last meeting I believe we voted that that was going to be what we brought to here. I don't, I don't actually think it's, we can talk about it but I don't think it's helpful to get to into it if that's, if that's what's going to the public hearing, if that makes sense. Okay, I do want to give Anika a chance to get kind of brought up to speed on this. So, if you have any questions or comments, Anika. This would be a good time to do that because what we're going to do after the public hearing, we may end up with the vote on a motion that we would be forwarding to the town council. If you have any questions or comments on this issue. While she's thinking I see Shalini's hand or Shalini. This is actually Jennifer Taub's message that she is not able to, I told her that she Angela sent a new message but she's saying she didn't, she's not able to and also Kim Trembley tack chair isn't able to connect either. Okay. All right. If you have any suggestions. Angela what to do, or Anna what to do Anna's hand is up. My hand is up about something else we can solve this first. So, in terms of the zoom connection, usually when people can't connect it's because there's an update that needs to be run in their zoom account. 90% of the time when people can't hop on it's usually due to that. And we know that the public links works because that's the way Shalini entered the meeting. She used the public link right Shalini. No, I use the email. She used the email so none of us use the public link. Kim really tried the public link and if they show up as attendees and we can bring them into the. I just tried the public link it does say please wait the webinar will begin soon. Oh Angela that's why we never launched it. Okay, so you explain that a little bit more, Anna. I think it just we just went out of practice so that we do have attendees now so Tracy's in the audience it should work now. Oh my god Tracy is here from Australia, because I know Kimberly is Kim is from. I don't know where people are zooming from but. Yeah, now they're coming in. Yeah, so that it was just a quick just a quick. Right. Okay. Learning range. Okay. Wonderful so we are we're now in in operation. Okay. So Anika, did you have any questions about the public hearing that we're going to be having on Lincoln. Can I make a recommendation, Anika for it. I don't know if it's helpful for some context setting. If you have not had a chance yet so for those who are just joining we're just kind of getting up to speed on Lincoln out the hearing is going to be September 20. Nope, September 15. I said I got there I got there. I mixed it up for a moment, but I got there. So it's September 15 and Anika what I would recommend reading is Tracy's Afian memo from the last TSO meeting I believe it was that we had and that's very thorough and that's what we ultimately landed on doing the hearing about. And so that would be my recommendation if you haven't had a chance to read that and then the meeting minutes from that same meeting where we discussed. Very helpful. Get to the demo but I have yet to get to the minute so I will thank you. Yeah, I mean if you have questions happy to answer them but those would be my that is right. That is right. I mean you know, we want to make sure that everybody's able to participate because this is going to be interesting event. Okay. Then I guess I would say, Andy, and Colin. One is that we still don't have Jennifer and in any way and so somebody could ask Jennifer to sign into the public link now that we know it works. Okay. I just texted her that. Thank you. Okay, good. Thank you. I'll keep an eye on it the other but what the public hearing format is in rule 5.2 C it says that it has six sections petitioners presentation that's an interesting question is to who the petitioner is but I do have a suggestion. Public hearing from councillors public questions, public speaking in favor of the proposal, public speaking in opposition, and then any additional questions from the councillors. The councillors of course are members of the committee who are present because it's been delegated to the committee though I think that we have to, we could need to consult with Lynn as to whether other councillors should be permitted into the hearing and how that process should work. As far as the petitioners presentation. Maybe we need to ask our tech representatives, whether they would be willing to take the role of petitioners in the presentation since we adopted their proposal. So that's my comments. Right, I think that's that's very, very good Andy. I think that that sounds reasonable to me. One question is, I'm not sure about them. Are we asking them into the meeting and can we ask them if that is okay or I'm not really sure about you know when we have other groups coming into the meeting. You know, we have sometimes it seems they command and we even see the picture, and sometimes they don't. Okay, so I've asked the question on you have your hand up. I'm not sure I understand your question sorry could you. I was going to say the difference. Okay, so, so Andy said, is it okay to have that the tack be the petitioners in this. I thought about whether we like that or not, and we can ask tack if it's okay with them. My question was, do we admit somebody from tack to answer this or not. I don't think, sorry, I think, so my, my impression is that the petitioners are who brought this issue forward initially and that would be counselor tab and folks that she was working with and I think that we can bring tack in to explain their report if needed but I do not think tax should be the petitioners on this because they did not, they were not the ones who petitioned for this to be changed. The word petitioner is, I think, perhaps a keyword there. Okay, that's my take. I'm agreeing with you Anna. Okay, can I also just say I agree with that that and that's what we did in the last time when with CRC because George Ryan was not in CRC but he was one of the petitioners so he was brought in as petitioners so we can bring up a dog. Okay, so I think that is correct I just so that that is good. And I remember CRC, what you were referring to Shalini, the structure of the CRC hearing, and it's not something that was made up it's right there and he just read it to us, we will follow that. And that will be good. So either Shalini, your hand is still up. Do you have any additional questions or comments on this? Yeah, just a comment that if you wanted the process I can send you because after all of this, the TSO can decide to whether we want to move to vote to close the hearing or do we need to leave it open. So that's part of the process as well. Okay. All right, that would be helpful. Thank you. Shalini will send the whole process through the vote. Okay, that's good. Okay. Do we have anything else to discuss at this moment about the Lincoln Avenue public hearing. Yes, Jennifer, whose hand is up anyway whether she is comfortable with making the presentation and understanding that it's being proposed right now as the TAC recommendation as presented at the last meeting. Okay, so the hearing has the TAC recommendation, but Jennifer would be asked to be as the representative petitioners to give her original comment similar to TAC but not quite the same. And then we would call upon TAC to give their proposal. Is that correct, Andy? I'm not sure that's what I'm trying to get group to kind of come to conclusion as to how to read that section C1 hearing format starting with petitioners presentation. But we don't really, you know, what does that, what do we interpret that to mean? Right. Well, because I just can't see TSO or TAC being the petitioner at this, or TSO being the petitioner in this case. I think it is the people who brought it to the committee in the first place. I'm agreeing with you on that. Jennifer has a hand up. Yes. Jennifer, can we'd like to speak on this issue? Yes. First of all, oh, we get, I'm sorry. I, for some reason, can you hear me? Yes, we can. Very good. I don't know why my, I, I, oh, there I am. Sorry. I could not get through for like 20 minutes. So I'm sorry I missed the whole first part. I started tuning in at 630. So I guess the, what I'm understanding is the question is, since the original motions just spoke about Lincoln Avenue, but then TAC recommended Elm and Sunset as well. What do I present? You would present what you presented to us. And then TAC would present that and we would then have questions from counselors would be open. And then we take it to the public. Yes, Shalini. I don't see why, I mean, if, if the Jennifer is in the group, original petitioners are okay with the change, then I think we should just present the final what is being and what the public forum hearing is being called for because it gets confusing otherwise for the people. So if Jennifer and all are okay, if they're not okay, then we should have them present what they want and all of that, but it seems like. I'm happy to present the original plus tax recommendation. Yeah, this is what we started with and this is what has been suggested. And so it'll be just one presentation that this is what we started but because of these reasons. This has been forwarded and this is what the public forum is a public hearing is for. Okay, and the TAC would be at the public hearing. And if there were questions technical questions, particularly, they would be able to answer those. So that that sounds okay that Jennifer will present the original proposal, and then say she has accepted tax proposal. And then we discuss and tack is both of that Jennifer and tacker are available for additional comments or questions in our discussion. Okay, that seems fine to me. And this is September 15. Yes. And what time, it would be I guess at the regular same at the 630 time. Because that is, you know, our regular meeting time and it is a good time for the public, a 630, as opposed to it's during the daytime, whatever, unless somebody has any comments on that. Because we're going to just do it in the meeting time. 630. Okay. So Jennifer what you what you missed was we were talking a little bit about the water and sewer bylaw and action. So we weren't talking about. Okay, yeah. Okay, so we're getting ready to talk about the engagement and outreach proposal. And we may as it suits anyone relate this to the Lincoln Avenue case to see if there are things that seem relevant or not. And then we're just going to talk about the other proposed other references that have come to us. There are no town manager appointments. We do have minutes from the July 17 meeting that we need to approve. And then we need, you know, we're just basically talking about next agendas. So are we ready, shall we need to go towards engagement. Outreach and engagement. Yes. So what I was proposing, I just needed a moment to pull up my plan. Okay, and it's up. So what I was proposing is that I could share my screen and I mean we can decide given that it was sorry, what. Oh, I was just going to say, Jennifer, I adore you and should we move Jennifer back. I don't need you, right. He does not have to say through the rest of our meeting. I feel like I'm crashing your meeting now. I mean, you're welcome but I was like wait there's more of us here than normal. I'll just listen. Thanks. Thank you. And Anna is always very aware of whose time it is to go and that we should thank them. I'm sorry, I'm sorry for interrupting. No, that makes sense. And I don't notice them in time. Okay. So she spent all that time to get here. And I should say also to Kim Trombley, we will not be discussing Lincoln Avenue and any more detail tonight. So it would be just to reiterate for you so once I see that you're still there. Jennifer will present the original petition. She will then say that she has accepted tax additions to the original petition. And that is what we will start the discussion on and tack will be available for any answering or whatever. So I will ask Kim Trombley who is representing tech, whether she has any anything she'd want to say or comment at this time. Okay, because this is the time to do it before we totally get off Lincoln Avenue today. So I see. I think, I think that is one. Yeah, okay. Very good. Okay. I'm totally fine. Everything's great. We'll see you on the 15th. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. Bye bye. Okay. So, Shawnee, you're going to share the screen and I just printed it out again and so I'm looking to figure out what I did with it. Yeah, okay, I can share my screen and given that everyone had very little time to look at it. I'm proposing that. Actually, it's a question. How do you want to proceed my proposal was the that we look at each section like there are there's the purpose the process the steps and the checklist. So they're basically four things and be good maybe just look at go through each one of them and see what we want to add or change and even as I was running the day in the morning I thought of other things that could be added to this because this is in really a complete document, but it's a foundation and a starting point for us to, you know, create a systematic template for other committees and our committee. So I can share my screen and we can start with the purpose anyone has any other comments or how you want to proceed with this. I think going slowly is a good idea. When I copy that I cannot seem to locate right now. I saw lots and lots of little comments and red marks and a lot of things to discuss. And I think that we need to actually just take our time and look at them. And look at the chain who's made these changes. Yeah, there's a lot of like edits and stuff but I don't know who can see who made them. Not not not me. Oh, it's just mine. Whoa. So you know what's uploaded is like this. I'm funky version of it so is it okay if I just maybe share my version. Share whatever you want. Okay, I'm going to just share my version because it just looks cleaner. Okay. I think shall any just to make sure that I'm channeling Athena share your version that's fine but I think make sure that you send that to again to get in the back. And this is that I can do with manager does like real time edits on the document. And so I'll put it on that editing mode, so that the changes are then recorded and then I upload I'll upload that on the share on SharePoint. Okay. It's like even a few seconds feel like so long. Oh my God, I mean everyone wait forever. It's the longest to you to don't worry about it. Yeah, use those moments to breathe. Okay, this is not moving now hold on. Okay, here, can everyone see it. Yes, it does have a hand. Andy, Andy, yes, just real quickly. And just shall any is that when you send it to Athena center, the version you're showing now without changes, and then make a separate document after you make any changes, then she has both. And she can make a decision is what is most appropriate. I'll just quickly making a two. Okay. And now this one I just want to get the tracking on going to create all the. Okay, whatever. We'll just start. Okay purpose. So basically it's written with the, with the purpose, the process steps and then a checklist that is an easy reference for everyone. So starting with the purpose. And I think, given that, you know, we have these different stakeholders, sometimes they can have competing needs. And so that's why I think it makes sense to create a process. The purpose of this engagement is that we're able to hear from the different ways is and not, you know, just one group over the others and making a decision based on just one group. So, if you look at some of the goals for this plan is to increase awareness to advance understanding of equity, gather input constituents vision values challenges, build relationships deeper understanding to improve community government relations to reduce long term costs caused by delays and conflicts when constituents are not on the same page. So that's just like a starting and I think I took this from some other place. So, can you think of other reasons why we want to add Andy. Oh, Andy, yeah. Yeah. So the one thing that I was uncertain about, and I don't know if it needs an extra bullet, or an extra number is that we also want to make sure that either the council or the staff has the opportunity to inform the public about the consequences of including financial consequences of proposals. And what I'm thinking about quite honestly is my experience from the budget side, because I think that a lot of times that there's sort of misunderstanding about what the limitations of our resources are, or the limitations of what allows us to do so that you get a proposal to do something and there either may not be the financial ability or the legal ability to do it and so I think we want to make sure that the community. is informed of that so that they understand the dilemmas that the council is working with. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, Anna. I agree with what Andy saying and I think it's also I mean I, I think that it's not. I agree keep that that number there but I do think generally right informing folks options for the implications beyond just financial so I do think the financial ones. It deserves its own call out, however that looks but I think generally implications are important financial and beyond. Right. Yeah, good financial legal and other. I mean, I think the main categories we can say financial legal and environmental social I mean those are mean lenses that we are bringing so maybe we need to do that financial legal social and environmental. Yeah, and we're also seeking. I mean the social implications are kind of what we're also looking at in some ways here too so. I guess we have that over here but I think it could remove because this is a little abstract advance understanding of equity. So I actually had a question about that and I apologize. I didn't get all the way through this with my pen but I'm curious how what that means in your as you wrote this. I think this was coming from the idea that it's true this dialogue and conversation of different perspectives that we see how you know certain proposals can I mean certain decisions can cause harm unintended harm and and how we can create more equity, but it's a little vague and I agree. Is there a way to clarify make it more to advance understanding of equity through an understanding of different perspectives and or the less or the minority like because basically people who don't speak up or afraid to speak up their voices are not reflected in our decisions. I think so what I'm hearing you say Shawnee if I can reflect back is that to build a more informed perspective. I don't necessarily see it being an automatic advancement of our understanding of equity I think there's other things that we'd have to do. But I do think that you know to to ensure broad perspective right like to ensure multitudes of perspective or something like that. I liked your first phrase more informed perspective, I think that as soon as I said I forgot what I said so I'm glad you remember or inform I had I wrote it down. I think that perspective. I'm just gonna and equity not understanding but and equity. How's that. Not everything involves equity. And I think that's what would bother me about the way it was worded because if equity is not really a part of what it's what the proposal is about, then throwing in equity gets into this question what the heck do they mean by that. I was going to just maybe push, maybe you know include that when necessary down with financial consequence we were having this conversation in GOL that I just really around equity and what that is and just sometimes this perceived impression that people are always on the same page with what that is and they're not and really just aside from you know the the definition which can still be interpreted in ways. And then also further just you know discussing that just coming in as counselors that we should just you know be looking at everything through that lens. Always and when when appropriate so it could be. Yeah, I think if you add it with the finances. I agree with you and Nika. I think that we keep it out of second one, but and add it to eight. I'm still not sure what the word is and maybe Anna you have the phrase to add that concept to eight. It's a goes under social. We wanted to have a separate separate word for because we're trying to remember to think of it more often. So I think sorry I need to write this down so I forget. I think that what I'm stuck on is that by saying the purpose of. I disagree with Andy I do think every single proposal that we have has and I actually I'm not sure this is what you're saying but I do think that every. Everything that we come across has a tied equity because that's how the world works right in the sense of it has a tie either to inequities or it's the result of an right like I think that there's always a tie and where that leads me is that I do think that we need to be you know considering that I know this is turning into sort of that buzzword but that equity lens right and I think for me that's what is dealt with by the consideration for implications and that's what we're dealing with by or that's that's part of the reason to have this is to sort to to gain informed perspective. What I don't want is I don't want. Equity takes intention right and so equity isn't inherent, and I think that what we need to be doing in in outlining the purpose of this is that we're seeking to build a more equity perspective right I don't think that we can promise it because we haven't seen this in action so I think that's that's what was making me uncomfortable with it is I think that the purpose of this is to build a more informed perspective, maybe than to say in order to provide more equitable governance or something like that, but I don't. I get nervous saying that it's like a guaranteed thing like this is a big intention. It's more like our intention it's more towards our intention for doing that but we can't promise it will be so I guess advances is a fairly broad term that should we put it back there to advance an informed perspective to promote to promote equitable you said something from mode equitable promote. Um, I think if I think if we said to. I think we could say something like to develop an informed perspective. I don't actually necessarily think they need to be in the same line. I'm fine if they're, I mean it's not it's not a hill I feel like dying on but I don't necessarily think that that's quite the right place. Because you can also have an informed perspective and still not make the equitable just decision so I think that. Yeah. It's a concept it's a consequence you know, yeah, and this way it's not it's not you know it shouldn't be presented as a choice. I have a suggestion that we add the word the word all deeper understanding of values needs recommendations of all people living and working in Amherst. Yeah, I think I think we make it a separate thing there I think. I think that it's in what we are saying here. That's true. You know so. That's true it is it's, I guess okay then let's just add it over here equity and then as we move forward we can see are we actually acting or do putting actions in place and strategies and actions in place that will move us towards making equitable decisions. And like I said like maybe this is like a first reading, and then you all will have time to sleep on it or read it again and it's a fairly easy document to add so things percolate and, and you have other things we can come back next week next time and act with. Okay, the process. Okay, so this was more like how do how can committees like what does it look like an action right so like let's say we've received the zero waste by law recommendation for the TSO to review and whatnot. So maybe the first the first things might be that we're, you know, we'll go through the first three, what it's saying is like, all committees can sort of go through the first few steps to define the problem what is the problem that we're struggling for, and then who, who is being and do we need to engage the community or stakeholders with research I mean because not every problem, or issue will involve community engagement. So the first step is just to even figure out what level of stakeholder engagement, we will need. I see your hand. I'm stuck on this, can you give me an example of a problem that we would not want community engagement on. I'm just thinking like GOL kind of that's probably where do they always, and you are you on GOL. And, you know, so we're actually moving into some, you know, subjects and agenda items that we actually had to know pause. We do pause last meeting because we will so you know just really starting to explore how, how that happens and when I mean we're talking about bylaws so there be, you know, different groups of people but yeah I definitely do not see this being GOL being exact. Not always but like certain things I mean I guess maybe I'm just leaving it open the idea that that's possible. And I mean it's, it doesn't mean that it just means going through the steps which is the first step is what is the community solving for and within that it's what are the, you know, the certain questions that people can go the committee can go through it and then do we need to engage the community and within that there are other questions like how does this issue have an impact on environmental economic racial health impacts does it have have community members voiced an interest or concern or opposition to this project with it help our project achieve equitable outcomes for our community members. And, you know, are we going to ask for funding from so whenever it's impacting the community which honor your right and most cases the decisions we're making are going to impact. So the answer to that will probably be yeah it is impacting and we do need to engage. And also sorry if we have on your hand is. Yeah, let's go. We have, you know, even when you see some of the meetings like we have to people with us thank you. But, you know, if there's a tool that will increase your community engagement maybe would have more people who will who would be coming to the meetings and interested and actually want to participate so it could be more of do we need instead of do we engage or how you know how do we engage. That's coming that's definitely coming this is just even deciding like what you know how is this impacting the community in what ways and then how question is that's the whole focus of this plan is that which is going to be who are the stakeholders identifying like you know with staff committees like you know we talk about CSS JC like when do we bring in ECAC tech which committees are being impacted or we need to involve them. Which populations are being impacted what businesses or nonprofits like this is going to be like first even just identifying the stakeholders and then as the actual how what questions do we ask them because that's the other issue where we find we get stuck is where people generally come and we want this and we don't want this you know it's kind of but what we really through our own questions. We can invite more sharing of people's lived experiences what are they you know what's working well for them where are they finding the challenges how are they using these facilities. So by asking different questions we're going to get different input, rather than we want this project or we don't want this project, you know what I'm saying. So anyway I'll come to that but I think. I'm, I'm very uncomfortable with the question being do we need to involve stakeholders I can't I can't get on board with that. I think that it's, or do we need to engage the community I just, I can't, because I think that we. I don't necessarily, I don't think that there's ever an issue that doesn't impact our community it's why we're here and I don't think that there's ever an issue where we should be saying no, we don't need to engage your community right so I think that there's a reframing on this that might be possible to get at what the lower down questions are asking. You know how our, how was our community impacted by this or, you know, how might the community have input for. I know that you said later on we asked how might we engage the community, but I think that those are, I don't think a binary question we need to engage the communities. Let me change that in a moment. Let me just hear with Andy, are you talking about the same question. A little bit. If you get if there's more to be done, but I was thinking about I'll tell you that I think what in two sentences. I think that it would be good after we've got a draft of this to ask other committees to look at it and to see how it applies to actual experiences they've had with issues that were dealt with within the committees. I think it's being, I really have problems figuring out how this applies to the budget and major role of the finance committee. Because the the charter is so specific and state law so specific on process. It is a requirement for budget hearing for. But it's a more formal kind of budget hearing because it's around the budget that specifically proposed. I really lost is to whether how the finance committees role fits into this whole process. You just answered it that the public hearing is one of the ways you're engaging that's already built in so you are still engaging. It's just like you're engaging them in a particular way and I do have public hearing as one, because the it's just to utilize the existing tools and way channels like public forums hearings district meetings things that are already in place. And it's just about formalizing it so that we're all utilizing them in a consistent way. Yeah, to be very specific. The charter, which is built on state loss of both specify that the town manager proposes a budget and we consider the budget as proposed by the town manager. So you get into this question as to what fits and what doesn't fit. I really need, you know, I think I need to go back and look at it again separately with that lens. Okay, I need to do one. Yeah. So I'm thinking about what Andy saying and I'm curious. Andy is there anything if we we meet the minimums that set by the charter and by state laws or anything preventing us from going beyond that and doing other outreach or doing other engagement. We can do other engagement but you don't want to mislead the public into thinking that we're forming a budget. And that they can say, we'd like to do this which is totally something that has not been done before and is not a part of the town manager's recommendation, because we don't have the financial or legal authority to do that. We're not doing participatory budgeting but it's when we do the outreach, it would just be it would still be within the bound like, we would need to make sure that those bounds are clear to the folks that we're engaging with, but we could still do some other engagement without kind of misleading the public into thinking. I mean the other thing that I have to remind you about is that the charter is very restrictive on the finance committee that the finance committee receives the budget on May 1, or the first working day after May 1 and has 30 days to complete this process including its hearing and turn it back to the council, which then has to adopt the budget by the end of before the beginning of fiscal year, which is the end of June. So setting up a process that envisions a long extended period doesn't work when you've got that constraint. Another question, Sean if I, if I might is, are you suggesting you had said that you wanted this to, I think, when I first was thinking about this I was thinking about it just for TSO and then we're talking about kind of the full council so are you proposing that these be codified in our rules of procedure. I mean that's where the other ways that we. I haven't thought about that to me like I don't know and I don't care. It's people who deal with that stuff can figure that out for me it's just important that, you know, we all start at the committee levels because I can seriously we're already sort of doing that with the rental registration and like I mentioned 300 responses because we actually went systematically created a survey and used different stakeholders so I feel like if we do do simple things we can get a lot more engagement and which is why I think this question was there it's also partly I mean I'm happy to change it because I agree that we should have engagement for everything. But I think it was to remove the fear of some like I think it was to ready who once I like oh my God that's a lot of work, you know to do that and so the point was not to scare the counselors that for everything you're going to do so maybe it's just the the level of engagement is the question or, you know reason for engagement but I think it's a good question to to ask like, do we want to codify it in the rules. I'm going to recognize myself. You started off using the word can, and I like that. It's not must or should. It's that these are things that you can do. I think that allowed gives a lot of leeway to committees to decide what is appropriate in individual cases. When I said it's a lot of work, not that it would scare counselors but that we wouldn't have time to do it might say yeah bring it on, but not it does not be possible, not have to add those extra meetings extra this the extra that. This is, and I so I wouldn't be for codifying it. I see this as a as a detailed exploration of the whole idea and presenting in a very logical way, many things that we can do and think about. And I think that, you know, for particular situations you'd say, well, these two are things we really need to do. And let's focus on that. But that's just my two cents there. If you have people want to argue that then. It's a good question to put maybe that can when we go into the town council. When we take it at that level that could be one of the questions that the council can decide whether they would like to see it at some level because it's, I don't think it's time consuming as much as it's a process of just going through that we have fought through. And, you know, these things. Yeah, yeah, I'm not necessarily for against codifying it although Dorothy you know I love to argue. But I think that I just think I was trying to picture where this was going and so I do think that, you know when we say must that for me would mean it needs to go in the roles of procedure and if not, I think we need to think about. That's a good point and I don't think this is like right now but I do think it might be worth thinking through. Is there a light version of this is there a medium version of this like how can we make this accessible for for folks to to use so anyway. Yeah, and I think that that could be that maybe this section, rather than being do we need it could be what level of engagement is needed. And I can go back and let's think of changing the questions a little bit, but this would help to determine what level of engagement, because if it's impacting people's money or if it's impacting the environment and so I guess. Well, where did you see must I am Anna I'm with you I don't want must. I thought you said must. I was just asking that I said that I liked that she said can. Oh, oh great. Perfect. That's what that was my original question was, I was. These are available to you. We will tailor it, but we could get ourselves where we're absolutely paralyzed and cannot move forward and act. If we make too many things required. But, you know, if this is like a checklist, you know that we do put in a syllabus, you're not going to do all of those things, but it's a way of reminding yeah we got to say think about that we got to focus on that. And remember the whole the many dimensions of the thing we want to do, but you can't do everything that's listed there. And this is not showing the changes I'm making so I don't know what's happening. Maybe it is. Okay, anyways, I did I did have a question of the order of your steps. Yeah, somewhere you had. Maybe it was before that you had. Do we need community engagement and that was like step three to two and I thought why doesn't it go in front of move down a little bit further to where you talk about particular community engagement. I mean before you go down. It could go. So the first is generally the problem statement like I think just clarifying what are the goals for. Because if you look at this you say what do we know and not know. I think you have to ask that answer that before you talk about doing the level of community engagement. I would think, first get your facts and what your intention is. And then when you get to who is impacted then we talk about community engagement. That's just my thought about the logical order of things. I am inclined to agree I think for me it's typically that's, I mean, that's that would usually be my starting point to is what's the problem we've been presented with who is impacted and how. And then we also might then drill down to the root problem again, because sometimes it changes but I think that asking that question first is going to inform the level to which we need to engage because if the answer to that question of who is impacted by this and how is, you know, again, the doubt this would ever happen but is these five people right here. Then our approach to the level of engagement is going to look different, because we're going to be able to do something different so I agree with Dorothy of moving that step up feels more natural to me but I also think that's the older one right step for your identification. Yeah, make step for step two. I would make it number two. I think yeah but but but but here's the thing though here's my caveat is that I haven't gotten all the way through this yet so I it's possible that I would change my mind, but it's just on the face. Yeah, that makes sense that we could. Right go ahead Dorothy. I would put it in history and unique his hand is up because what we know and what we don't know, I think is like, you got to figure that out first, but I was, I was just going to add that you know getting the fact straight and knowing everything about it will also determine how, you know, and are there limits to how you can engage with community and not. You know, if, if that's the first and you don't have to, you know, we wouldn't have to backtrack and say no actually you know wouldn't be able to participate here. Yeah, right. It's clear from. Okay, that seems to be the kind of saying. What is the problem. What do we know what we not know who is impacted. And then we get into the level of what are the details about community engagement. And we're going to do it. Right. But as Anna said, it can be a very small community would be a very big community. And different problems, it will be different in different situations. Oh, the level. Okay, so I have it this way now the problem and then who is it impacting. And then what do we know. And then maybe what do we know and then the level of engagement. And then the actual engagement. So I guess you're seeing what do we know in a different way you don't mean what do we know about the problem, because I would see that has to be number two. You mean what do we know about the people who are impacted or. Yeah, I think because just firstly, if once we know who all we are thinking about, then going into okay what do we already know about this, the problem and visit the with respect to the different perspectives. So I think that makes sense to have what do we know about the people affected or the people. Yeah, not about the problem. Okay. And it is a reiterative process it should be circular kind of right because we're going to sort of go back and forth. Right and we and people will. Okay, so I think we made some good progress here and then in terms of the questions itself I think we do need different quest set of questions maybe for determining the level of engagement or what are the reasons for engagement. Can we finalize this part. I mean this is going to go down. So this is going to be the level of engagement question maybe, or it's going to be either level or what kind of reasons for engagement question maybe. I'm sorry what was your what was the question you just asked. So, you know this, the step to which is actually now going to become a step for something level of engagement so we're changing it. So it was originally. Do we engage the community and we're getting rid of that. And we're instead so can we finalize what we want this step to look like, and do we need that step at all maybe. I think it's good to get that level of engagement that might help some people feel a little better. So if we're thinking about this from a human centered design, like backing right this is the step where we're empathizing empathizing with the stakeholder and so I think that that's where we're trying to figure out the what we're trying to understand the problem from their perspective, in order to determine what their needs are so I think that this is, this is part of define the problem but it's it's really more about understanding the perspective. So, I know I'm making it more complicated but I'm trying to take it back to the models that I'm used to using with design and so, you know, thinking through that empathize step is. I think we do that in the who is impacted. Let's look at that also for a moment, who is impacted and so which specific committee which groups are already engaged and easy to reach which groups are hard to reach. Who can be invite to help which town departments committees, and then the engagement itself I thought that some of the empathy comes in there where we go into the lived experiences of people is that what you mean, or. So, I guess my practice is typically to have that be much much earlier in the process and so I'm just trying to get these steps organized in my mind and. We can do it in whatever if you have a model that that, you know, because the stakeholders is going up firstly that's becoming now the second one, right. So this is more about identifying the stakeholders not as much as and then when we go into the designing the actual engagement. The idea was to what sort of questions to ask and that's where we really want to bring in that empathy of understanding people's lived experiences what are the challenges. How are they utilizing like if you're designing a library, for example, we might be okay, how do you utilize it, what do you, what facility services do you use or not use. And, you know, so it's like really getting to understand how walking in their shoes, rather than even getting people to just say, I like this or I don't like this or I want that you know like we all have a tendency to jump to the solutions before. And then understanding what are the causes and conditions for these problems to arise. And that's where the whole engagement process is meant to really get into designing what sort of information, do we want to collect from different people. Here's, here's a thought. I just, part of me doesn't like the word stakeholders. Okay, because it sounds, it can be some people could interpret stakeholders just to mean business owners and property owners, but you're using it with the library so I'm saying okay who is a stakeholder in the library. People who have library cards, people use the library. It does not include people who don't use the library, but we might wish would use the library because they're not actually stakeholders yet, we wish they were but they're not. It certainly does not include the majority of the undergraduates at UMass because they don't use our public library for scholarly reasons they have their library. So I think can I just interrupt to clarify the definition of stakeholder is just anyone who's impacted by a decision. But does that mean people who are already involved or people that we wish were involved? Because both would be impacted by it. That's everybody then. So in other words if it includes everybody then it doesn't have any meaning. You know, in this particular case like library, it includes many more people but if you look at maybe some other issue like rental registration, the stakeholders we identified were renters, tenants, landlords, neighbors, and those were like the key stakeholders. So that one is that one's easy, but I'm just thinking with the library or with other cultural institutions, because all these such in all cultural institutions wish they had more members or more active participation, but they're not stakeholders, they're theoretical. They are. And that's what it did just depends on how you so the weights utilized in. The answer is it's clear you have to live there or you rent there or you're the one that owns the property or you live next to the property. Those are pretty clear things and we can say guess those people are involved in this issue. One way that I like to think about it is who is at the table and is impacted and who is not at the table but is impacted, right and so you're right that stakeholders right off the bat is going to be people who are actively engaged who are directly impacted immediately, but there's also the people who are impacted but their voice is not currently at the table so I mean I think that if it's easier to, or if it if it makes more sense to shift the word stakeholders into, into community members or something like that right. I'm, I'm less interested in going down the semantics whole about the word stakeholders I think that there's better ways to get at that. But I do think that it's important to define what we need when we say that whatever word we choose. And that's what's important so I think that that could be a way to ask that and she's in Chinese got some really great questions here of, you know, which groups are already engaged, that would be the like at the table. Who is impacted and then you know who is impacted but isn't currently engaged, or whose voices we haven't heard. And those are the questions that I think she's trying to ask in the number three, and number one so I guess I think this, if it makes people more comfortable to shift away from the word stakeholders then maybe that's a conversation we can have but I'd rather we be clear on what we think in regards to the word. Is there a better word that reflects on in your human centered design, what is the word I've just used using the word. I'm just using the word sometimes you saying stakeholders, because like for example in the discussions of the library. There has been discussion of, of what wishing that there were more black young people who use the public library and then we heard well, they represented there. So it's kind of the word stakeholder in that case I mean you're talking about, you know, was a stake in that issue. Anyone was a stake in that issue. I think it means. I think it means what it does I also think that we need to, to be careful there are, you know, when we make statements and say that, you know, black people don't see themselves in the library I mean there are. There are reasons that the library is not seen as inclusive, you know, and that's clear. I think that is clear to anyone walking in the library if that's how you're looking at so if you know I think that also this is. You know, unless I'm missing the point here. This is about how will we get community to be involved, you know how do we get people to be involved and have the number so we actually have people in the audience. And they, you know, they want to participate with us, I think that's in some of the cases you know knowing the audience. I'm not sure if we should look at this individually we have more time because also with engagement some of the questions you want to ask early on is the amount of time that you have and that can determine. You know, who you're going to get to and why and you know, and clearly we're looking at the tables and who's at the table but I think we also need to have that lens where if we're at the table and we're not making it our business to create more scenes. You know, for others to join the table what what are we here so. Whereas I really, I appreciate this I think that we have to select we, we don't know we don't know what the issue is going to be and I think that when we're, you know, in the beginning looking at the facts and how what, who do we know who do we need to reach out to in these cases we're going to have a time frame, you know whether it's a hearing or what's going on we're going to know how much time we have and then you can kind of do that the beginning you're working backwards you know how you need to roll out and engage and what you need to present. So it's crystal clear we're not misleading people, so on and so on. Okay, I think that's really valuable point and I see handy's hand is up here. I just wanted to share with you that I took the time to see what Miriam Webster's definition of stakeholder under the circumstances for describing. Now I lost it for a second but hopefully I'll get back to it. But it is essentially somebody who is here it is one who is involved in or affected by a course of action. Okay, involved in or affected by or so. Yeah, so that's, let's define it I think it'd be good to define it early up front. Okay, on your hand is up next. It wasn't it's for a sad reason one I'm curious Andy if you have the dictionary up for scrabble reasons, but I have to, I do have to leave us early today and so this this is going to be my point of exit but Shalini. Before I do that selfishly I'd love to know what would be helpful from us if you'd like us to mark this up and bring it to the next meeting. It would be great. Yeah, so to like if you can go through the questions or any other we've started reordering the process and all but if you can add more questions and like even what do we do because I what I didn't add was okay, because that's where we are at rental registration we have all this information but what do we do who's going to analyze it. Right, right. So, yeah, so add more questions and also I wanted to ask Dorothy do we want to move to a little discussion on the zero ways. Okay, I do have to, but I'll watch the criticator. Thank you all. All right. Thank you very much. Thanks. Yeah, bye bye. So, if you're saying that you are content with what we've thrown in on the table up to now. And what, what, yeah, because actually our meeting should end I believe at eight o'clock is that right. Yeah. Okay, and it's quarter of eight. So, thank you shall any then we'll kind of pause our pursuit of this really interesting project. And we will try to put our minds to it and see if we can get somewhere and Andy that was a really great definition. Okay, I appreciated that. Okay, so we have these other items. Let me just see if I can find the paper again. Okay. Well, we have zero waste. And we have the lighting policy. And what else was, wasn't there something else that was given to us last night. Or was it just zero waste and the lighting policy, streetlight policy. Those were the two issues. Yeah, okay. They're not small. So, they're not small. And so I'll just start off on zero waste. Interest and excitement on zero waste. Lots and lots of questions on zero waste. And I don't have the, my minutes in front of me my notes that I take, but there clearly is is concerned that we might really not get response competitive bidding because we're dealing with a private company and private companies and, you know, do they want to do it will they do it. So the discussion of, and I get the little towns. Is it leverage that has this. It's very shoots very. Okay. Who is anyone familiar with the shoots very system to see how related to do they have a private contract. Yeah, they have a town contracted system and what I understand I haven't spoken to the person there but the people the research that's been done. By the Smith College, they reached out to shoots very and I have a list of the names who they reached out anyway, what they do know is that they sent this town sends out the RFP, and they have been getting different companies through the Kasella Republic and USA that have been responding and they have changed, so they have been getting bids from different companies. Yeah, I'm really confused because we had three companies here just the other day, and then I thought that I heard that USA bought them out, but they couldn't have bought them out if these companies exist outside of our realm. So that is, you know, just basic facts. The problem is, I think that Shalini and I have spent so much time on this so we could go in for hours about this topic and I don't think we want to do that tonight for obvious reasons. The answer to your quick question is, is that, you know, five years ago there was Amherst trucking and do so and those were the major providers and I don't know why people who are unhappy because two companies were sending trucks down the same streets every same thing and actually two trucks one for recycle and one for regular trash. Both companies were bought by USA trucking, now we have the consequences of both of those prior subscription providers who are now belonging to the same company. The other, there are other companies, but the other companies do more dumpster kind of things in either businesses or department complexes. They don't do the curbside pickup from homes. So there's a lot of things that we don't know yet it is a complicated process. You know, Shalini and I have spent a lot of time with our colleagues who are the sponsors talking about this, but in trying to figure it all out and talking to other communities. Okay. I see. I'm not sure who was first Shalini or Anika. The hand up. Okay, Shalini. Yeah, I was thinking that maybe we can come up with the process how we're going to move forward with tackling this huge issue. And I just started to put down some thoughts like take each section of the bylaw and, you know, I mean that's how we're doing with the rental registration is like, we're taking each section and then we compare it and then part of that is there are a few sample towns that are comparable to us within Massachusetts. And then who can we invite and speak to like ECAC, Susan Wade, who are the other people who are helpful and that we can invite to start talking about it is with just some of the few steps and then there are some basic documents which I can upload maybe to RTS or like make a zero waste folder. And, you know, that went into the memo and the bylaw changes and everything. So everyone has access to the same information. All right, so, so here is my suggestion that what you just described a process of how we go through the document. What towns to check out what speakers to invite and what the basic documents are that you and I guess it's Andy and I think Jennifer is Jennifer's on this zero waste I think to Jennifer Taub. Anyway, the committee. I can do it because we have access Andy and I have access to the DSO. Okay, so if you could bring us at our next meeting, a process and some and a timeline. An idea because I at this moment I have no idea how much time we would need to spend on doing this but it sounds like a lot of stuff. And I mean what I saw was, there is great support for this. There's just a lot of questions of how we're going to do it. So, if we can have a decent process and also figure out, you know, this is really for Shalini, when we should, you know, who we invite and when we should, I guess we'll have public comment that kind of stuff that we get our input as we go, but we need, we need to get our facts straight and we can do it. That would be very useful. And Andy, can you work on that with Shalini the steps the process. Yeah, I have some other thoughts I was going to add but I wanted to hear from the need for first. Okay, great and Nika. Okay, thank you because I have an extra two part question and the second was for you Andy. I'm going to start up with this issue and it's clear on all of the benefits of it. And I was actually talking to my neighbor who just moved out who was saying that I'm not sure the town uses the same company throughout the town but she was saying that at least it's the company that comes to where I am. And I'm just on Chestnut Street that now they're offering compost bins to drop compost bins so I don't know if everyone you know that she also brought up something that I had never heard about before but I'm not an expert here that drywall apparently drywall can be taken away with compost as well. It's just something that I, you know, her channel never heard that before but so my question I just for everybody but specifically Andy is what are like what would be the opposition or do you think or are there financial concerns around this. What are the obstacles there. It's great that we went the order we did because I was actually going to hit on that last issue. Paul has very strong concerns about this and he's usually at our meetings and the staff to our committee. And so it's really important that we bring get him engaged in this. I think that he has an understanding because of his experience and how trash collection works and what the costs are. And there are things that we have to know about like who is doing the organization, the contracting who's who are our neighbors going to when they want to get trash pick up and who is doing the billing and who is collecting the payments. Is it the town or is it the contractor and it because it is a town provided service and if it's a town provided service, then we have to make sure that we understand who the staff is, and how that staff is being paid. So, there's that whole series of issues that are in there. And I think that we really can't get ahead of the process now, because I think that it's unfortunate that we're starting the conversation without having Paul present for it because in the other one is Guilford because it is under the public works realm. And I think that there's real concern that we are putting so much on Guilford right now with the lighting policy that changes in the water and sewer regulations, and this one that there isn't staff capacity at Public Works Department to handle us so we have to hear from the staff about that I don't think that, you know, we can talk about it I don't have an opinion about it, but I sort of aware that there was this concern raised. One additional question you could have raised was yes USA trucking does have compost as an additional service available for an additional price. But we're not sure what the price is quite honestly I don't know. And we do know that they don't advertise it you almost have to ask. And if you're going to do universal composting, you know, you have to decide, does everybody who has curbside pick up at home. The other issue is that for getting just to the curbside, because we haven't even got the people who use the transfer station and just take the trash to the transfer station. What about people who have a backyard compost heap and would never throw anything into it. They would throw it into a bucket that goes that's picked up and why would they want to pay should they be required to pay so that there are a myriad of issues that sort of flow from this proposal. I don't think that it is a simple question. And, you know, this 90 day reporting back I think it is going to be a report back I can't imagine that we're going to be done in time. And I guess the last thing that I'll just quickly say to, you know, we spent some fair amount of time because she only talked to people in Shrewdsbury I had long conversations with people in Arlington, who was one of the towns cited by very neat. Arlington is the Shrewdsbury's predecessor, and they were one of the towns from Massachusetts, who were cited as having a very successful program. And so I have a real understanding now of what it is that, you know, Arlington does and what some of the problems that Arlington has confronted along the way though they're very enthusiastic and continue to be committed to doing this but it isn't a simple thing and I think that that's the, just the reality that we need to recognize. Oh, okay, and I thank you for that and before I forget it. We, and I'm going to call on you shall any just a minute. This is a big big problem project. It has a lot of sponsors. It kind of falls in with what we've been doing with DPW I agree we do a lot with DPW water sewer and waste and composting are kind of like they are connected. I was thinking how much work do we need to do on lighting one. I could see dealing with that relatively quickly. If we discuss as was mentioned in the town council meeting discuss the questions about dark skies, shading, light spectrums. And then the question of how many and are you going to remove lights and whatever. You know when we have to get back in 90 days it doesn't mean we've solved the problem we have a finished product it just means we tell people what we didn't know we didn't do. So, we can either say, we're going to go spend a lot of time and do zero waste, which is supposedly going to save money. Okay, as well as the environment. And then do the lighting, or we can say we think we could do the lighting quickly, and then do zero waste. But we're not going to do both of them at once I don't feel like okay so that would be one thing to say, in terms of having all of these things on top of DPW. So that's what I'm throwing out there and I'm going to call and shallow me. If we look at the in like when we're prioritizing what issues we're dealing with. In my mind zero waste is a way higher importance than lighting issue which we what I heard in the council meeting was there were two people speak residents who have reported on it. I'm sure there are more, but it's not something that people residents have been writing to us. And I cannot justify to my constituents who've been writing to me about potholes about safety of not being able to bike at night or during the day and and to say oh now we're working on this project which no one has brought up before us whereas zero waste we've heard from so many people and it impacts has social justice. Yes it is a more complicated issue no doubt, but we start with one step in front of the other. And we just start doing that and same thing with staff. It's not that we tell we're not going to dictate to DPW hate tomorrow you need to switch over, but we're going to engage with them and we're going to engage with them. And we'll start doing the groundwork that we need to do is to start gathering information talking to different people looking at different towns doing our own research. And we'll work with the staff that what is a time but we need a timeline from them because if we leave it to will do it when they're free. It may never happen. But let's work with them to have some sort of goals that, and before the goals also with them, I think we need to do our work of talking to other towns and documenting all this research to see how they are dealing with, you know, the different aspects of this issue. So that's what I'm proposing. Good, good thoughts and I have a question here for Andy. Shalini brought up the roads and potholes we know that's number one for so many people we've been told by Paul that we have. I never remember numbers but is it $12 million backlog it's a really big number in roads and we can't create more money so my question to Andy is. I know that the roads are a huge issue, and money is one of the major things that's holding us back from doing all that needs to be done will zero waste. I mean in the end it's supposed to save money is that going to be also challenging us financially to get it started is is a fine is that going to be one of the problems, or is it not. I don't know that yet because it's. I think we have what we're hoping to hear from Susan weight is as towns that have in the last few years, made the switch so that we can talk to a town that has adopted this new procedure and what was involved in making that change. Susan has so far not responded to several requests to do that and provide that information and she's the one who would have the most access to the list. So it does depend in that regard on what you know what health and response that we get the financial aspect of it, we'll get back to the finance committee eventually. But in the end, you know, you know, a lot of cities and towns, historically provided trash pickup is just a regular tax supported service. In Massachusetts, we have a unique problem because of the community like Amherst, when we're at Hampton, did not provide it. Then, in order to to provide it within the budget, you would need to pass an override to increase taxes. And then there are a whole lot of questions that come up about, well, what's the fairness of increasing taxes to do this, if you're also offering the transfer station as an option because then transfer station users are paying for a service that they didn't ask to receive. And, you know, it's those kinds of questions that we really need to be exploring quite hard in order to understand this. And it's not going to be simple or quick. But, you know, as Shalini has pointed out, if we don't begin, we'll never move along to addressing identifying and then addressing these questions. And you get back to the process we started about earlier. As we gain information, that's when we start wanting to really hear from the public, because, you know, as all of us have experienced, they're the ones who will benefit and they're the ones who will pay the expense. And maybe I should conclude my thought on the financing. If you can't increase taxes and do it as an override, then the other way to do it is to build to use the enterprise fund approach like water and sewer so that people who are purchasing the service, pay for the service through an enterprise fund similar to water, somebody who is in a rural area and has a well, they don't pay to anything for water because the water isn't being provided by the town. So an enterprise fund is very much of a possibility. And we actually have a enterprise fund already because we use it to administer the landfill, the transfer station or other recycling center. It is a complicated matter and I think that what we need to do is decide what the committee needs to know first and get that body of information in a little more organized fashion than my three or four minutes that I've taken or five minutes to describe it. And kind of outline it as we can, and that will give us a sense of where to go forward. Right. And okay, Shalini, thank you Andy very much. Yeah, thank you Andy for summarizing and I think one other option which is a lesser preferred option is that the billing is done by the hauler. I had spoken to Susan Wade about it and she wasn't really supportive of it like if this was like the worst possible scenario that we do move to town contracting, but the hauler does the billing and that way she said there was less transparency and less control. So we don't want that. I mean ideally I think it would be an enterprise fund but those are the things we're going to study is like what are the different towns, what are the different mechanisms towns are using. The second thing about finance is that Susan was very clear that the state is really pushing for the pay as you throw model and Anika that's the other reason why, even though USA is providing composting, they basically are charging more for it. And it's penalizing right now, like Darcy and I compared our rates and she's composting and she has a 30 gallon bucket and she's paying more and I have a 95 gallon bucket, which I get pick up every week and she's paying more than I am. She gets every two week pickup because she has very little waste and I mean of course she's doing composting which I have called them and I haven't heard from them yet but basically she's paying more with less waste and I'm paying less. Yeah, so it's very messed up right now and what we want is a system where the people are paying only wasting 30 gallons will pay less and then 65 gallon will pay more. And then what Susan said was that the state is actually providing the buckets to towns who are replacing and moving into this model for composting. We have three buckets and they are and there is money to get DEP coordinator just the way we got Veronica last time. So for this implementation phase now we also need, we need the expertise from DEP and there's a grant for that so that's one other thing we can put down is like how do we apply for that grant to get the expertise. Okay. And it sounds like a really challenging task but since Bob can't walk still from his foot surgery. I've been having to go to the transfer station. And I am really shocked at the level of not the waste you're talking about packaging waste, just absolutely getting furious. I mean the packaging particularly of pills and all that stuff. I mean, that's another thing that we need to get get to. And that's, but first we need to do this, we need to, it's really important. And it's a it's a lot of work that we have to do. So I guess we should just get started on it and hopefully we have some kind of process coming and shall you got your hands still up. Yeah, so can Andy and I work on coming up with the process. I would appreciate that very much. Okay. And can Andy can you handle that I'm always worried about you because I know you do so much on the finance committee. Yeah, no, I had a lot of interest in, you know, work with shall already quite a bit on this through the process of we engaged in to make the presentation which shall only just big hand for because she designed that great presentation. But, you know, we can work on it I don't know whether we can do it by our next meeting or not because I'm got a week off in between. We're doing a meeting two weeks from tonight. I believe so. I don't. We skipped that one meeting I don't. I have them. Okay, I got my camera. Here we are. Yes, then the first is our next meeting. Okay. Bob I'll answer in the second or two. Yes, September 1 Paul is also not going to be there for that meeting. Then on the 15th we have the Lincoln Avenue parking hearing. Okay. And then I this I'm glad you mentioned this because the next meeting then would be October 6 because we don't meet on the same day that CRC meets. And I'm not available on October 6 I'll be out of town at a wedding just not not able to zoom or do anything. Okay. So I can, we can have a meeting on that date which would be the all the schedule that we would normally follow and somebody else run it which is fine with me and I guess that's show me so that would be my with me, or we can do a meeting. We have our hearing on the 15th we could do a meeting on the 22nd. You know, there's have two meetings close together and then skip that one. So whatever you guys decide that would be fine with me. So, I think September 1 is the problem that I have because I think good I said I was going to be away for a week. Yeah, that's hard for me also 20 seconds sounds good. Can we maybe send out an email to Arnold and like to everyone to check their calendars. Okay, so you're suggesting that we actually do not have a meeting on September 1 because there are two people who cannot make that meeting, and that we then have our next meeting, the 15th, followed by the 22nd. Unless we went also meet on the 8th, so that we can catch up. But I already have one meeting that's interrupting that my week that I'm spending with the kids and the grandkids and lake. Please say you got to do it you got to do it. Yeah, what time to see our C meet because the CRC is on the eight. So you could do that. Okay, so you're saying. Okay, skip. 91 meet. 98. Yeah, Danny, did you say you had a problem on the eight. September 8 would work. 20 seconds, one of the two. And did you think we'll be able to do it by eight. Or we can just send the other way. Our next meeting. On the 15th. Yeah, 922. Yes, that would be ideal, because I will give us enough time to then. I have some deadlines to the end of the month also. Yeah, it's great. We're also holding a hearing and then possibly making a decision on a recommendation regarding Lincoln. Right. So then we would have and if we don't somehow finish the work we would be meeting the second second week and we can do whatever we needed to do is that what you're saying. I just think we need to be careful in the 15th that we can do something besides the hearing that I don't think we should think that it's going to be a long period of time. Right. Right. Okay, so I have now then that our next meeting would be the 15th of September and the 22nd of September. That is what I have from this discussion. So I will do is I will check with Anna on this. Okay. And then I'll get back to you. Because I believe that I don't break open. Meanwhile, if I communicate with you about meeting times. That's correct. Okay, fine. Okay. All right. Well, we have a lot of work to do. Okay. TSO seems to be the place where all the stuff is coming. I will not make myself crazy. We're not going to have insane like meetings and this one's already 15 minutes over time. We will do things we will do them in a rational orderly fashion, following the process that seems clear and meaningful. Because, you know, that's the only I think that's the only way to go otherwise we're just going to be totally burnt out and make mistakes. So, okay. I did not call for public comment tonight. Let me just briefly do that. And see if anyone who of our two attendees, whether they want to make a comment. If so, they should raise their hand. Okay, I don't see a hand. Okay. So I'm then we have talked about we've been talking about agenda. We could. Okay, the minutes, which are. The minutes of July 17, which we like to make a motion to approve the minutes of July 17. The minutes. And we have a second. Did we review them at both for the last packet. They worked in this packet. I don't know I since I have them involved. I get them right away. Did people see the minutes that's really that's the question. You're not in this current back. Then we cannot approve that. Thank you Andy, because I of course do see the minute so I didn't realize that okay. I don't know why they wouldn't be in the packet or we have been into. Unless they were in the packet from the prayer meeting, which is. It was really, you know, on time. Okay, because she was doing everything and I just don't think she'd miss up on this. So. What was the data meeting that you're talking about. Why 17. And the packet is the, the agenda and the engagement plan. Okay. I'm just going to put all this in this agenda. So, so somehow we did not get those minutes distributed, which means that we cannot approve them. So that's, we will carry that over. Good point. Thank you. And we'll put them in the packet. Somehow. I thought that was underway. So I'm a little bit surprised by that. Okay. Discussion. Yeah. I think the packets have not been like, you know, we're doing the community engagement than maybe the other documents need to also be. And I wonder who's supposed to be, I mean, I don't want you to be doing that. I am not doing that. Okay. I don't. So how would like if Angela is doing like in view of, or even when Athena was doing it, how would she know? I sent that document. I, you know, like the zero ways by a law, we're going to have a brief discussion for instance. That's on the agenda, but then we need the, like the memo, the presentation, the whole thing. So I guess the person who's bringing those up then should contact Athena and send them all the related documents. Yeah, because that's not been happening. I've been, I've not been seeing and then I come and I'm like, I'm not prepared because the documents were not there. And I thought, oh, we're not going to discuss it or I'm just a little confused. Okay. Okay. So we do have to, I do not know how to put them in there. And. Okay. So we all related documents. So we have, so we're going to have zero waste. Okay. The engagement was there though, last time. Yeah. Just the engagement when it's like the, but I might have put like, for instance, the last presentation slides also with it as a, because that's a connected document. We have to give everything to Athena. Yeah. She does that. If she doesn't get it, then, you know, it's not going to be. Right. Right. Okay. Okay. So we're going to move on. I see no more business to do tonight and we can. Have a motion to adjourn. See you. Great to see you. Yes. Yes, I was so glad you're back. We've missed you. And. So good to see all your faces. Yeah. And we don't, we don't want to send you into. You know, into a relapse or anything by piling too much work on. So we're going to, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to send you into a relapse or anything. Or it's just going to be, going to be an orderly. Midi that does it stuff as best it can. Okay. And as Andy pointed out, it's a very complicated issue. It is one step at a time. Yes. Take the first steps. Okay. I'll definitely be reaching out to people. Yeah, please. Yeah. Absolutely. Please reach out. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. It's a good night. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye, bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.